Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:31 AM - Re: Engine Ground strap (Bob Noffs)
2. 04:14 AM - ground straps (Bob Noffs)
3. 06:12 AM - Re: Fuel flow indicator (Lynn Matteson)
4. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Lynn Matteson)
5. 06:24 AM - Please Remove me from list (Dan Billingsley)
6. 06:33 AM - Re: ground straps (Lynn Matteson)
7. 06:49 AM - Re: Please Remove me from list (John W. Hart)
8. 06:56 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Catz631@aol.com)
9. 07:27 AM - Re: ground straps (Noel Loveys)
10. 07:52 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (fox5flyer)
11. 08:16 AM - Fuel Tank ground straps (paul wilson)
12. 08:24 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (akflyer)
13. 08:46 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (akflyer)
14. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
15. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Lowell Fitt)
16. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Lowell Fitt)
17. 10:10 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (akflyer)
18. 10:58 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
19. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
20. 11:41 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (akflyer)
21. 11:51 AM - Re: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Lynn Matteson)
22. 12:02 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
23. 12:08 PM - Re: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Bob Brennan)
24. 12:21 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Gary Glasgow)
25. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Lowell Fitt)
26. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Lynn Matteson)
27. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (John W. Hart)
28. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Lynn Matteson)
29. 02:42 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
30. 02:53 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
31. 03:26 PM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (akflyer)
32. 03:35 PM - Need Model IV interior (Paul Morel)
33. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Dwight Purdy)
34. 04:32 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
35. 04:38 PM - Re: Fuel flow indicator (akflyer)
36. 04:54 PM - Re: recording in logs (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
37. 05:19 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Lynn Matteson)
38. 05:36 PM - Re: Re: Fuel flow indicator (Lynn Matteson)
39. 06:28 PM - Re: Need Model IV interior (Lowell Fitt)
40. 06:39 PM - Re: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Clint Bazzill)
41. 06:41 PM - Re: Need Model IV interior (Larry Huntley)
42. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Lowell Fitt)
43. 07:18 PM - Re: Need Model IV interior (C David Estapa)
44. 09:33 PM - Re: Need Model IV interior (Lowell Fitt)
45. 11:32 PM - Re: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (JC Propeller Design)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine Ground strap |
NAPA has a variety of sizes and gauges too.
bob noffs
----- Original Message -----
From: patrick reilly
To: kitfox matronics
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Engine Ground strap
Noel, Thanks for info. I'm going to the aviation department of Farm
and Fleet today and buy a grounding strap.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: noelloveys@yahoo.ca
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Engine Ground strap
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:49:51 -0330
In a word... no. Sounds good to me.
Getting a reasonable ground to the frame from the battery isn=92t
usually a problem. Getting a good ground to the engine requires a good
strap to jump the engine mount. Missing or corroded grounding straps
are a common place to develop charging problems. It=92s a good idea to
check your grounding connections every year as part of your annual
inspection.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat Reilly
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:30 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine Ground strap
Kitfoxers, I have the battery on the back of the firewall on my 582.
Is there anything wrong with attaching the engine grounding strap to the
engine mount thur bolt on the front and the battery ground wire to that
bolt on the inside of the firewall?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
a little off the original mark but concerns grounding fuel tank. we all
know static elec. starts fires. a low wing burnt at my airport 2 yrs ago
while refueling. anyway.........a friend had always assumed his alum.
tanks were ''bonded'' to his engine by an all metal fuel line system.
the ground point was his exhaust pipe at the fuel pump. he recently
checked continuity from engine to tank and even with all that metal
plumbing he had an open circuit. it was traced to a joint where a little
permatex had been used! i am still building and it was a simple matter
for me to ground my tank to the firewall with a wire, forget the metal
line. i guess i dont know how this relates to plastic or fiberglass
tanks.
fwiw, bob noffs
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel flow indicator |
Thanks, Deke. I'll mount mine according to what vertical room I have
within the confines of the console, taking their "must be mounted
vertically" note in BOLD FACE lettering into account. Sounds like you
and Leonard both bucked the system. : ) My only concern about it NOT
being vertical is that there might be a pocket in the impeller
cavity where air could hide, and hinder readings.
By the way, the skis are coming along, one is finished, ready for
primer, and the other is waiting for the proprietor of the ski shop
to get his butt back out there and finish it up. The hangar driveway
is cleared out, the ramp will get a snowthrower touch up today, and
the skis could be going on tomorrow. Don't ya love this new snow? We
just got about 10" of more in the last two days....just in time for
the test of the skis.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:18 PM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> Lynn, not being one to follow the crowd or be quick to do what I'm
> told, I mounted mine horizontally. Their reasons have merit.
> However, if it's mounted down low, like mine is, just after it
> comes out of the header, there should be no bubbles as they will
> move toward the highest point and away from the transducer. Once
> it's installed, just pump a couple gallons of gas through it and
> any air in the system should be gone. Over 400 hours on mine and
> no problems.
> You're correct on how the impeller works.
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
> progress."
> - Joseph Joubert
>
>
>>
>> My Northstar F210 arrived today...that was quick. In reading the
>> installation instructions (yeah, I'm one of those guys) for the
>> transducer, it says to install vertically. This is going to be a
>> bit of a problem for me because I don't have much of a vertical
>> area between the header tank and my carb, which is down low on a
>> Jabiru engine. I may have to install in my console, using a 90
>> fitting on either side of it, due to limited vertical space
>> inside the console. They say the vertical mounting is so that any
>> air bubbles can be cleared more easily.
>> Has anyone mounted theirs horizontally? If so, have you had any
>> problems? I can see their point regarding air bubbles, but I'd
>> think that any air bubbles would vibrate themselves out rather
>> quickly, unless there is a "trap" built into the cavity of the
>> transducer where the impeller resides...I'm assuming this is a
>> rotating-impeller measuring device, right?
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>> ignition system;
>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
Not to start an engine war, but it is threads like this one that make
me smile about my choice of engine, even with all the problems that I
have had with mine.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Paul,
>
> This has sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant. I think we
> sometimes forget that there are many airplanes experimantal and
> certified that use a version of the Rotax 912. I know from group
> flying experience that the Rans S-7 has a cooling problem and often
> has to step climb to avoid going into temps I have never seen on my
> Model IV. It is my belief that the Evans coolant might be
> appropriate for that application as the temps are much higher than
> the boiling point of water. For me, I was never tempted to use
> it. It is sort of like putting a cast on a perfectly good leg
> because my friend has one on his leg.
>
> Lowell Fitt
> Cameron Park, CA
> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing the precover
> checklist, Rudder trim system - my rib warp design, and Landing
> Gear - done.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"
> <paul@eucleides.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>
>
>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>
>> On Sat, January 10, 2009 7:42 am, earnestj0 wrote:
>>> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
>>>
>>> Thanks Rick, I would appreciate a photo and also information on
>>> the "waterless" that
>>> you are talking about.
>>
>> "In the 1980s inventor Jack Evans discovered the advantages of
>> using a waterless
>> coolant. His final formulation is a mixture of ethylene glycol and
>> propylene glycol.
>> This coolant has a high boiling point of 188 C (370 F) and is
>> not corrosive, solving
>> many of water's problems including freezing."
>>
>> <http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Antifreeze>
>>
>> I got curious and did a little research on this. Rick talked about
>> using NPG+ made by
>> Evans Cooling. Here is their website.
>>
>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/main1.htm>
>>
>> I found nothing on their website that was other than sales/
>> marketing/folklore
>> presentation. There is no "white paper" or generally accepted
>> format for research to
>> corroborate their claims.
>>
>> Their product is called "NPG+" which is a corrosion inhibited
>> propylene glycol
>> ethylene glycol blend.
>>
>> It has a much higher temperature boiling point than an ideal mix
>> of inhibited ethylene
>> glycol and water. However it is substantially more viscous
>> (especially at low
>> temperatures), has a lower heat capacity and offers less freeze
>> protection.
>>
>> They make a claim that major engine manufacturers and specifically
>> Rotax require their
>> fluid.
>>
>> I looked through all the Rotax service bulletins and found this:
>>
>> <http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d02398.pdf>
>>
>> Well, from reading that, it sounds like it is a little less than
>> mandatory. A higher
>> pressure cap seems to be the emphasis and no where does it
>> actually say that NPG or
>> NPG+ is required.
>>
>> Evans summarizes the properties in a table at the bottom of this
>> page:
>>
>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm>
>>
>> I have done quite a bit of research on failures of heat transfer
>> systems filled with
>> food grade glycol (propylene) and inhibited ethylene glycol. In
>> fact I spent an entire
>> year doing so. In large mixed metal systems the expected life of
>> propylene glycol as a
>> coolant is significantly less than ethylene glycol systems. The
>> biggest contributor to
>> failure is entrained air and high operating temperatures. The air
>> oxidizes the glycol
>> forming fairly long molecular chain organic acids. The inhibitors
>> have capacity to
>> buffer the pH change to a limit. What you'll notice with propylene
>> glycol (NPG and
>> NPG+) filled systems is steady and gradual discoloration of the
>> coolant. It begins to
>> start turning brown soon after installing and at some point it can
>> start to form a
>> corrosive sludge that will plug heat exchangers. Of course in a
>> small engine, you
>> don't have to maintain inhibitors or worry about filtering, you
>> just drain, flush and
>> refill.
>>
>> Because of the significantly lower heat capacity of pure inhibited
>> propylene glycol,
>> more flow is required. For some applications this means using a
>> higher flow capacity
>> water pump and more tubes in the radiator. The Evans people, in
>> fact, sell cooling
>> system mods for engines they use in racing conditions because of
>> this.
>>
>> So, if you are convinced this is something you want to use, you
>> will need to change
>> out the fluid more often and use twice as much than if you use
>> 50-50 mix of water and
>> inhibited ethylene glycol and you will not have the freeze
>> protection and the NPG or
>> NPG+ should not be operated much below 40F which is problematic
>> in aircraft where the
>> ambient air temperature is often colder than this.
>>
>> I think using a higher pressure cap and the heavy duty (extended
>> life) rated for mixed
>> metals type of inhibited ethylene glycol which is color coded
>> orange in the US and is
>> the recommended fluid by Ford, GM, Chrysler, Caterpillar and
>> Cummins is my preference
>> and I will use in my Rotax 914.
>>
>> The extended life coolants use an entirely different corrosion
>> inhibiting chemistry
>> that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates,
>> phosphates or borates.
>>
>> Here's a brief overview of engine coolants:
>>
>> <http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant.htm>
>>
>> I am neither endorsing nor discouraging the use of Evans'
>> waterless coolant.
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Franz
>> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
>> Bellevue WA
>> 425.241.1618 Cell
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Please Remove me from list |
I have gone through the motions of removing my subscription several times to no
avail. Something is goofed up because when I send a post everyone can see it
but I can't. Thanks, Dan B
--- On Sat, 1/10/09, Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net> wrote:
> From: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 11:59 PM
> <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>
> Chuck sez:
>
> >Dean Wilson designed the Avid Flyer to withstand all of
> the
> >aerodynamic loads encountered in normal flight, and did
> a good job
> >of it. Later Dan Denney made a Chinese copy of the
> Avid and called
> >it the Kitfox --everything was originally the same
> except the name.
>
> What happened when Wilson and Denney ended their
> partnership on the
> original Avid Flyer has been beaten to death here and is
> not relevant
> to a discussion of trailering or structural factors with
> the wings
> folded. Those with an interest in that discussion can find
> it in the
> list archives.
>
> Mike G.
> Kitfox List Administrator
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: ground straps |
When I was building, this subject came up and I reacted by soldering
a 1/4" ground strap onto the filler neck and running it under the
fabric covering down to the rear spar mounting bolt. I have pictures.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Jan 11, 2009, at 7:13 AM, Bob Noffs wrote:
> a little off the original mark but concerns grounding fuel tank. we
> all know static elec. starts fires. a low wing burnt at my airport
> 2 yrs ago while refueling. anyway.........a friend had always
> assumed his alum. tanks were ''bonded'' to his engine by an all
> metal fuel line system. the ground point was his exhaust pipe at
> the fuel pump. he recently checked continuity from engine to tank
> and even with all that metal plumbing he had an open circuit. it
> was traced to a joint where a little permatex had been used! i am
> still building and it was a simple matter for me to ground my tank
> to the firewall with a wire, forget the metal line. i guess i dont
> know how this relates to plastic or fiberglass tanks.
> fwiw, bob noffs
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Please Remove me from list |
FWIW, most likely, it is your server's email filtering (Spam filter). Same
thing happens on mine (all email accounts). When I go to the email
management service on my server to check over messages that are caught as
"spam", I always find my messages in the mix. I don't bother trying to get
them delivered to me because I already know what I sent, and there is a copy
on my computer in the "Sent Items" folder of my email program anyway.
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Billingsley
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:24 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Please Remove me from list
<dan@azshowersolutions.com>
I have gone through the motions of removing my subscription several times to
no avail. Something is goofed up because when I send a post everyone can see
it but I can't. Thanks, Dan B
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
Tom and Paul,
Thanks for your input on checking the rear spar pivot. I will proceed with
the checks you suggested. I checked again yesterday with a super bright light
and everything appears in order but will see if I have any movement
Dick Maddux
Pensacola,Fl
**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making
headlines. (http://news.aol.com?ncid=emlcntusnews00000002)
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Metal tanks can be grounded and will then drain static electricity off to
ground. Plastic and composite tanks are insulators so not only can you not
ground them but static charges can build up on them.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Noffs
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:43 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: ground straps
a little off the original mark but concerns grounding fuel tank. we all know
static elec. starts fires. a low wing burnt at my airport 2 yrs ago while
refueling. anyway.........a friend had always assumed his alum. tanks were
''bonded'' to his engine by an all metal fuel line system. the ground point
was his exhaust pipe at the fuel pump. he recently checked continuity from
engine to tank and even with all that metal plumbing he had an open circuit.
it was traced to a joint where a little permatex had been used! i am still
building and it was a simple matter for me to ground my tank to the firewall
with a wire, forget the metal line. i guess i dont know how this relates to
plastic or fiberglass tanks.
fwiw, bob noffs
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
Dick, checking the spar pivot is a good plan, but I'd suggest that if
you want to be absolutely sure, remove the wings and (with a magnifying
glass) have a very close look at the spars themselves, mainly at the
mounting points and doublers. If the doubler rivets are tight, glue is
still intact with no sign of cracking, and the holes are still round,
then you're probably good to go. Being 4130 steel, I believe that the
fuselage pivot points are much stronger than the spars and it seems to
me that if anything would give, it would be the spars themselves.
At the very least, replace the rear spar pivot bolts.
Just my .02.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: Catz631@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
Tom and Paul,
Thanks for your input on checking the rear spar pivot. I will
proceed with the checks you suggested. I checked again yesterday with a
super bright light and everything appears in order but will see if I
have any movement
Dick Maddux
Pensacola,Fl
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines.
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Fuel Tank ground straps |
The spark originates between the metal filler port on the tank and
the fuel hose. Our plastic tanks have a metal filler that should be
grounded to the airframe to allow the static to be dissipated. Its
not fool proof but sure helps.
Its very common to read about plastic tanks with no metal at all
sparking during filling and causing a big problem. Lots of discussion
on this subject on the Matronics forums. RV, Kitfox and Aeroelectric
forums. Also a Google search will enlighten even the most skeptical
reader. Don't take my word for it.
Fueling techniques can help in this matter is one verifies ground
between the fuel nozzle and the metal tank port before allowing fuel
to flow. Static builds up when the two are not in electrical contact
when fuel is flowing. If the tank port is grounded then the static
discharge will be smaller or non existent.
Paul
=============
At 07:25 AM 1/11/2009, you wrote:
>Metal tanks can be grounded and will then drain static electricity
>off to ground. Plastic and composite tanks are insulators so not
>only can you not ground them but static charges can build up on them.
>
>Noel
>
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Noffs
>Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:43 AM
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: ground straps
>
>a little off the original mark but concerns grounding fuel tank. we
>all know static elec. starts fires. a low wing burnt at my airport 2
>yrs ago while refueling. anyway.........a friend had always assumed
>his alum. tanks were ''bonded'' to his engine by an all metal fuel
>line system. the ground point was his exhaust pipe at the fuel
>pump. he recently checked continuity from engine to tank and even
>with all that metal plumbing he had an open circuit. it was traced
>to a joint where a little permatex had been used! i am still
>building and it was a simple matter for me to ground my tank to the
>firewall with a wire, forget the metal line. i guess i dont know how
>this relates to plastic or fiberglass tanks.
> fwiw, bob noffs
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
AS we all know, the kitfox was a copy of the avid. It has been asked if the original
designers were thinking about towing etc. when it was designed, and I do
believe it was implied that they were to stupid (or lacked the Grey matter)
to have done so....
Please read the last sentence of the brochure.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224046#224046
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1st_brochure_and_info_packet__page_3_364.jpg
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
Just to be fair, I better post the rest of the story...
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224049#224049
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/avid_letter_213.pdf
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
Since the same person also implied that there was no such thing as
consideration of metal fatigue in the design does anyone know any more
about, or have documentation to support, the statement "light structure with
high fatigue life" in that last paragraph? Obviously structure fatigue was a
consideration, but is the airframe's actual "high fatigue life" documented
anywhere?
Also does anyone know what the paragraph means by "towing" in the statement
"strong for towing"? I am thinking they meant towing with the factory
supplied towbar and braces at the recommended speed and distance limits, but
it would be nice to have any confirmation.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 11 January 2009 11:24 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
AS we all know, the kitfox was a copy of the avid. It has been asked if the
original designers were thinking about towing etc. when it was designed, and
I do believe it was implied that they were to stupid (or lacked the Grey
matter) to have done so....
Please read the last sentence of the brochure.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224046#224046
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1st_brochure_and_info_packet__page_3_364.
jpg
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
Bob, I think the documentation you are looking for is the simple fact that
since 1982 there has been no report (read documantation) of an inflight
structural failure on any Avid or Kitfox aircraft. This doesn't meant that
one won't crop up at some time in the future. But I always think of my
friend that is considering buying an ultralight type aircraft that has a
long history of the lift strut attachment failing at a fairly predictable
interval. This item has been tagged by pilots of this airplane for
bimiannual raplacement. I asked him if this was a problem to him - his
answer, No.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Brennan" <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Since the same person also implied that there was no such thing as
> consideration of metal fatigue in the design does anyone know any more
> about, or have documentation to support, the statement "light structure
> with
> high fatigue life" in that last paragraph? Obviously structure fatigue was
> a
> consideration, but is the airframe's actual "high fatigue life" documented
> anywhere?
>
> Also does anyone know what the paragraph means by "towing" in the
> statement
> "strong for towing"? I am thinking they meant towing with the factory
> supplied towbar and braces at the recommended speed and distance limits,
> but
> it would be nice to have any confirmation.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
> Sent: 11 January 2009 11:24 am
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
>
>
> AS we all know, the kitfox was a copy of the avid. It has been asked if
> the
> original designers were thinking about towing etc. when it was designed,
> and
> I do believe it was implied that they were to stupid (or lacked the Grey
> matter) to have done so....
>
> Please read the last sentence of the brochure.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224046#224046
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/1st_brochure_and_info_packet__page_3_364.
> jpg
>
>
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
Hey Lynn, Your comment blows my mind. Are you suggestion that your
catastrophic failure of that hat shaped gear and your megabucks repair of
that and your ignition mods to help mitigate a weak design there as well
somehow relates to deciding whether or not to use evans coolant.
Sorry if this comes along as a bit strong, and please correct me if I
misunderstood your meaning.
Lowell
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>
> Not to start an engine war, but it is threads like this one that make me
> smile about my choice of engine, even with all the problems that I have
> had with mine.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> ignition system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> This has sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant. I think we
>> sometimes forget that there are many airplanes experimantal and
>> certified that use a version of the Rotax 912. I know from group flying
>> experience that the Rans S-7 has a cooling problem and often has to step
>> climb to avoid going into temps I have never seen on my Model IV. It is
>> my belief that the Evans coolant might be appropriate for that
>> application as the temps are much higher than the boiling point of
>> water. For me, I was never tempted to use it. It is sort of like
>> putting a cast on a perfectly good leg because my friend has one on his
>> leg.
>>
>> Lowell Fitt
>> Cameron Park, CA
>> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
>> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing the precover checklist,
>> Rudder trim system - my rib warp design, and Landing Gear - done.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"
>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>>
>>
>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>
>>> On Sat, January 10, 2009 7:42 am, earnestj0 wrote:
>>>> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Rick, I would appreciate a photo and also information on the
>>>> "waterless" that
>>>> you are talking about.
>>>
>>> "In the 1980s inventor Jack Evans discovered the advantages of using a
>>> waterless
>>> coolant. His final formulation is a mixture of ethylene glycol and
>>> propylene glycol.
>>> This coolant has a high boiling point of 188 C (370 F) and is not
>>> corrosive, solving
>>> many of water's problems including freezing."
>>>
>>> <http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Antifreeze>
>>>
>>> I got curious and did a little research on this. Rick talked about
>>> using NPG+ made by
>>> Evans Cooling. Here is their website.
>>>
>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/main1.htm>
>>>
>>> I found nothing on their website that was other than sales/
>>> marketing/folklore
>>> presentation. There is no "white paper" or generally accepted format
>>> for research to
>>> corroborate their claims.
>>>
>>> Their product is called "NPG+" which is a corrosion inhibited propylene
>>> glycol
>>> ethylene glycol blend.
>>>
>>> It has a much higher temperature boiling point than an ideal mix of
>>> inhibited ethylene
>>> glycol and water. However it is substantially more viscous (especially
>>> at low
>>> temperatures), has a lower heat capacity and offers less freeze
>>> protection.
>>>
>>> They make a claim that major engine manufacturers and specifically
>>> Rotax require their
>>> fluid.
>>>
>>> I looked through all the Rotax service bulletins and found this:
>>>
>>> <http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d02398.pdf>
>>>
>>> Well, from reading that, it sounds like it is a little less than
>>> mandatory. A higher
>>> pressure cap seems to be the emphasis and no where does it actually say
>>> that NPG or
>>> NPG+ is required.
>>>
>>> Evans summarizes the properties in a table at the bottom of this page:
>>>
>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm>
>>>
>>> I have done quite a bit of research on failures of heat transfer
>>> systems filled with
>>> food grade glycol (propylene) and inhibited ethylene glycol. In fact I
>>> spent an entire
>>> year doing so. In large mixed metal systems the expected life of
>>> propylene glycol as a
>>> coolant is significantly less than ethylene glycol systems. The biggest
>>> contributor to
>>> failure is entrained air and high operating temperatures. The air
>>> oxidizes the glycol
>>> forming fairly long molecular chain organic acids. The inhibitors have
>>> capacity to
>>> buffer the pH change to a limit. What you'll notice with propylene
>>> glycol (NPG and
>>> NPG+) filled systems is steady and gradual discoloration of the
>>> coolant. It begins to
>>> start turning brown soon after installing and at some point it can
>>> start to form a
>>> corrosive sludge that will plug heat exchangers. Of course in a small
>>> engine, you
>>> don't have to maintain inhibitors or worry about filtering, you just
>>> drain, flush and
>>> refill.
>>>
>>> Because of the significantly lower heat capacity of pure inhibited
>>> propylene glycol,
>>> more flow is required. For some applications this means using a higher
>>> flow capacity
>>> water pump and more tubes in the radiator. The Evans people, in fact,
>>> sell cooling
>>> system mods for engines they use in racing conditions because of this.
>>>
>>> So, if you are convinced this is something you want to use, you will
>>> need to change
>>> out the fluid more often and use twice as much than if you use 50-50
>>> mix of water and
>>> inhibited ethylene glycol and you will not have the freeze protection
>>> and the NPG or
>>> NPG+ should not be operated much below 40F which is problematic in
>>> aircraft where the
>>> ambient air temperature is often colder than this.
>>>
>>> I think using a higher pressure cap and the heavy duty (extended life)
>>> rated for mixed
>>> metals type of inhibited ethylene glycol which is color coded orange in
>>> the US and is
>>> the recommended fluid by Ford, GM, Chrysler, Caterpillar and Cummins is
>>> my preference
>>> and I will use in my Rotax 914.
>>>
>>> The extended life coolants use an entirely different corrosion
>>> inhibiting chemistry
>>> that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates,
>>> phosphates or borates.
>>>
>>> Here's a brief overview of engine coolants:
>>>
>>> <http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant.htm>
>>>
>>> I am neither endorsing nor discouraging the use of Evans' waterless
>>> coolant.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul A. Franz
>>> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
>>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
>>> Bellevue WA
>>> 425.241.1618 Cell
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> Since the same person also implied that there was no such thing as
> consideration of metal fatigue in the design does anyone know any more
> about, or have documentation to support, the statement "light structure with
> high fatigue life" in that last paragraph? Obviously structure fatigue was a
> consideration, but is the airframe's actual "high fatigue life" documented
> anywhere?
>
> Also does anyone know what the paragraph means by "towing" in the statement
> "strong for towing"? I am thinking they meant towing with the factory
> supplied towbar and braces at the recommended speed and distance limits, but
> it would be nice to have any confirmation.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
I wonder if it is possible that someone may have eaten alot of paint chips as a
child.... who knows.... I guess that just as above has shown, thinking can get
us all into trouble..
The full file is too large to post (12.8 MB) so I cut out the page for transport.
Read the last sentence on transport...
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224065#224065
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/avidflyerbrochure1990_7_162.pdf
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
So do you think your friend's "no" answer meant "no I don't mind replacing
the part(s) every 2 years to be safe, glad I know about it" or "no I don't
believe that's a problem and I'm gonna buy it and fly it without ever
bothering to fix it"?
It seems we have both opinions on this list as regards the stresses of
trailering, but no solid "replace this weak point biannually if you trailer"
good advice.
Another reason I am searching for a definition of that "high fatigue life"
statement is that I am considering restoring a 1943 vintage L2 Grasshopper,
which to those who know is the military version of the original Taylorcraft
Cub. Not to get off topic on a Kitfox forum but the L2 has a very similar
fabric covered metal tube fuselage and I can't help but think that in 1943
they didn't build it using molybdenum tubing and TIG welding. So I am
thinking (there I go again!) that the Avid "higher fatigue life" is as
compared to something like an old Cub, and what exactly, or even
approximately, is the life in hours-flown of either, or any tube-framed
aircraft?
Old type-certified aircraft don't fall out of the sky either, but I've seen
lots in museums labelled "past their serviceable life" or completely
rebuilt. But we will just keep merrily flying our Kitfoxes because we don't
know 'bout stuff like that... :-S
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: 11 January 2009 12:28 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
Bob, I think the documentation you are looking for is the simple fact that
since 1982 there has been no report (read documantation) of an inflight
structural failure on any Avid or Kitfox aircraft. This doesn't meant that
one won't crop up at some time in the future. But I always think of my
friend that is considering buying an ultralight type aircraft that has a
long history of the lift strut attachment failing at a fairly predictable
interval. This item has been tagged by pilots of this airplane for
bimiannual raplacement. I asked him if this was a problem to him - his
answer, No.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Brennan" <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Since the same person also implied that there was no such thing as
> consideration of metal fatigue in the design does anyone know any more
> about, or have documentation to support, the statement "light structure
> with
> high fatigue life" in that last paragraph? Obviously structure fatigue was
> a
> consideration, but is the airframe's actual "high fatigue life" documented
> anywhere?
>
> Also does anyone know what the paragraph means by "towing" in the
> statement
> "strong for towing"? I am thinking they meant towing with the factory
> supplied towbar and braces at the recommended speed and distance limits,
> but
> it would be nice to have any confirmation.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
> Sent: 11 January 2009 11:24 am
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
>
>
> AS we all know, the kitfox was a copy of the avid. It has been asked if
> the
> original designers were thinking about towing etc. when it was designed,
> and
> I do believe it was implied that they were to stupid (or lacked the Grey
> matter) to have done so....
>
> Please read the last sentence of the brochure.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224046#224046
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1st_brochure_and_info_packet__page_3_364.
> jpg
>
>
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
"We recommend that you trailer your AVID FLYER if you want to transport it
long distances [ie >10 miles]. Always install wing towing supports when the
wings are folded"
<well-intentioned sarcasm>
Oh, ok then. Everybody on this list attaches the factory-supplied towing
supports and puts their plane on a trailer in the same attitude as the
factory-supplied towbar.
So no problems then!
</sarcasm>
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 11 January 2009 1:09 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> Since the same person also implied that there was no such thing as
> consideration of metal fatigue in the design does anyone know any more
> about, or have documentation to support, the statement "light structure
with
> high fatigue life" in that last paragraph? Obviously structure fatigue was
a
> consideration, but is the airframe's actual "high fatigue life" documented
> anywhere?
>
> Also does anyone know what the paragraph means by "towing" in the
statement
> "strong for towing"? I am thinking they meant towing with the factory
> supplied towbar and braces at the recommended speed and distance limits,
but
> it would be nice to have any confirmation.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
I wonder if it is possible that someone may have eaten alot of paint chips
as a child.... who knows.... I guess that just as above has shown, thinking
can get us all into trouble..
The full file is too large to post (12.8 MB) so I cut out the page for
transport. Read the last sentence on transport...
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224065#224065
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/avidflyerbrochure1990_7_162.pdf
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> "We recommend that you trailer your AVID FLYER if you want to transport it
> long distances [ie >10 miles]. Always install wing towing supports when the
> wings are folded"
>
>
> Oh, ok then. Everybody on this list attaches the factory-supplied towing
> supports and puts their plane on a trailer in the same attitude as the
> factory-supplied towbar.
> So no problems then!
>
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
what data did you use to determine that >10 miles is considered "long distance",
or is that a brown and smelly number? I have the full file from the manufacture
and did not see a hard number they considered a "long distance". It seems
the most info to be had in that statement was to "make sure you have the wing
braces installed when the wings are folded". This is the brace that slips into
the forward spar and pins in at the strut attachment on the fuse.
In respect to you other post, it is safe to assume that the welds were made using
oxy acetylene and mild steel tubing. Atleast, the early pipers were made this
way. I would venture to say that a quick web search would back this up as
well as asking anyone of the number of people who have restored one, or asking
an A&P with Grey, thinning hair.
The service life you mentioned is more determined by how the AC was used not really
how many years old it is. If it was flown off grass strips or paved runways
and taken to shows every year and kept in a hangar and has 5000 hrs on it,
I would bet it is better shape and has less fatigue than a cub that was built
in '78 that has been flown in the Alaskan bush by a sheep or bear guide yet it
only has 2800 hrs on it.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224080#224080
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
What I was thinking, and didn't relate it all, was that every time I
hear the Rotax guys, and I guess any of the water-cooled guys talking
about that expensive waterless stuff, and having to relocate
radiators, and where to place the thermostat, and dealing with all
the hoses, etc., I just am thankful that air-cooled engines at least
don't have to worry about leakage and all the other attendant
problems that seem to come up so often.
Yes, air-cooled engines need their own touches to make them perfect,
but the proper coolant and possible loss thereof isn't one of them.
Yes, I've had problems with *my* engine, but not all the Jabs have
had the gear problem. Just like not all the water-cooled guys have
problems, not all the air-cooled engines break a timing gear.
Yes, the ignition system is a weak link, but I chose to replace mine
rather than glue the rotors on, because I wanted something different,
and better, and more modern. I could have changed caps and rotors
every month for 10 years and not spend what I did for my new
ignition, but I'm an experimenter and chose to spend the
money...overkill? Yes. Necessary? No. Am I satisfied? Yes.
If you didn't know I had those engine problems...or if I hadn't
mentioned it...and simply said "glad I chose an air-cooled engine",
would that have been better?I think probably it would have, or better
yet kept my comment and thoughts on this subject to myself.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 11, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Hey Lynn, Your comment blows my mind. Are you suggestion that
> your catastrophic failure of that hat shaped gear and your
> megabucks repair of that and your ignition mods to help mitigate a
> weak design there as well somehow relates to deciding whether or
> not to use evans coolant.
>
> Sorry if this comes along as a bit strong, and please correct me
> if I misunderstood your meaning.
>
> Lowell
> Do not archive
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 6:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>
>
>>
>> Not to start an engine war, but it is threads like this one that
>> make me smile about my choice of engine, even with all the
>> problems that I have had with mine.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>> ignition system;
>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>>
>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> This has sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant. I think we
>>> sometimes forget that there are many airplanes experimantal and
>>> certified that use a version of the Rotax 912. I know from
>>> group flying experience that the Rans S-7 has a cooling problem
>>> and often has to step climb to avoid going into temps I have
>>> never seen on my Model IV. It is my belief that the Evans
>>> coolant might be appropriate for that application as the temps
>>> are much higher than the boiling point of water. For me, I was
>>> never tempted to use it. It is sort of like putting a cast on a
>>> perfectly good leg because my friend has one on his leg.
>>>
>>> Lowell Fitt
>>> Cameron Park, CA
>>> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
>>> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing the precover
>>> checklist, Rudder trim system - my rib warp design, and Landing
>>> Gear - done.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"
>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:29 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>>>
>>>
>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, January 10, 2009 7:42 am, earnestj0 wrote:
>>>>> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Rick, I would appreciate a photo and also information
>>>>> on the "waterless" that
>>>>> you are talking about.
>>>>
>>>> "In the 1980s inventor Jack Evans discovered the advantages of
>>>> using a waterless
>>>> coolant. His final formulation is a mixture of ethylene glycol
>>>> and propylene glycol.
>>>> This coolant has a high boiling point of 188 C (370 F) and is
>>>> not corrosive, solving
>>>> many of water's problems including freezing."
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Antifreeze>
>>>>
>>>> I got curious and did a little research on this. Rick talked
>>>> about using NPG+ made by
>>>> Evans Cooling. Here is their website.
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/main1.htm>
>>>>
>>>> I found nothing on their website that was other than sales/
>>>> marketing/folklore
>>>> presentation. There is no "white paper" or generally accepted
>>>> format for research to
>>>> corroborate their claims.
>>>>
>>>> Their product is called "NPG+" which is a corrosion inhibited
>>>> propylene glycol
>>>> ethylene glycol blend.
>>>>
>>>> It has a much higher temperature boiling point than an ideal
>>>> mix of inhibited ethylene
>>>> glycol and water. However it is substantially more viscous
>>>> (especially at low
>>>> temperatures), has a lower heat capacity and offers less freeze
>>>> protection.
>>>>
>>>> They make a claim that major engine manufacturers and
>>>> specifically Rotax require their
>>>> fluid.
>>>>
>>>> I looked through all the Rotax service bulletins and found this:
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d02398.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> Well, from reading that, it sounds like it is a little less than
>>>> mandatory. A higher
>>>> pressure cap seems to be the emphasis and no where does it
>>>> actually say that NPG or
>>>> NPG+ is required.
>>>>
>>>> Evans summarizes the properties in a table at the bottom of
>>>> this page:
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm>
>>>>
>>>> I have done quite a bit of research on failures of heat transfer
>>>> systems filled with
>>>> food grade glycol (propylene) and inhibited ethylene glycol. In
>>>> fact I spent an entire
>>>> year doing so. In large mixed metal systems the expected life of
>>>> propylene glycol as a
>>>> coolant is significantly less than ethylene glycol systems. The
>>>> biggest contributor to
>>>> failure is entrained air and high operating temperatures. The
>>>> air oxidizes the glycol
>>>> forming fairly long molecular chain organic acids. The
>>>> inhibitors have capacity to
>>>> buffer the pH change to a limit. What you'll notice with
>>>> propylene glycol (NPG and
>>>> NPG+) filled systems is steady and gradual discoloration of the
>>>> coolant. It begins to
>>>> start turning brown soon after installing and at some point it
>>>> can start to form a
>>>> corrosive sludge that will plug heat exchangers. Of course in a
>>>> small engine, you
>>>> don't have to maintain inhibitors or worry about filtering, you
>>>> just drain, flush and
>>>> refill.
>>>>
>>>> Because of the significantly lower heat capacity of pure
>>>> inhibited propylene glycol,
>>>> more flow is required. For some applications this means using a
>>>> higher flow capacity
>>>> water pump and more tubes in the radiator. The Evans people, in
>>>> fact, sell cooling
>>>> system mods for engines they use in racing conditions because
>>>> of this.
>>>>
>>>> So, if you are convinced this is something you want to use, you
>>>> will need to change
>>>> out the fluid more often and use twice as much than if you use
>>>> 50-50 mix of water and
>>>> inhibited ethylene glycol and you will not have the freeze
>>>> protection and the NPG or
>>>> NPG+ should not be operated much below 40F which is
>>>> problematic in aircraft where the
>>>> ambient air temperature is often colder than this.
>>>>
>>>> I think using a higher pressure cap and the heavy duty
>>>> (extended life) rated for mixed
>>>> metals type of inhibited ethylene glycol which is color coded
>>>> orange in the US and is
>>>> the recommended fluid by Ford, GM, Chrysler, Caterpillar and
>>>> Cummins is my preference
>>>> and I will use in my Rotax 914.
>>>>
>>>> The extended life coolants use an entirely different corrosion
>>>> inhibiting chemistry
>>>> that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates,
>>>> phosphates or borates.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a brief overview of engine coolants:
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant.htm>
>>>>
>>>> I am neither endorsing nor discouraging the use of Evans'
>>>> waterless coolant.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Paul A. Franz
>>>> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
>>>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
>>>> Bellevue WA
>>>> 425.241.1618 Cell
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
That depends on if you call the Kitfox Owner's Manual "brown and
smelly"(huh?) Leonard. From the manual, posted at
http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf, page 5 - "The airplane should not
be towed on its own gear for long distances (more than 10 miles)."
Thanks for your ideas regarding the question of service life of a
fabric-and-tube aircraft, such as the Kitfox and the Taylorcraft. As I said
when the designer of the Avid stated "higher fatigue life" I am guessing he
meant higher than old Cubs and that sort of design, which I am also guessing
was a starting point for the design of the Avid and eventually the Kitfox.
I'll do some research on the service lifetime of that type of aircraft later
tonight, and/or leave the question open to anyone else on the list who may
have some real numbers or know where to get them.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 11 January 2009 2:41 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> "We recommend that you trailer your AVID FLYER if you want to transport it
> long distances [ie >10 miles]. Always install wing towing supports when
the
> wings are folded"
>
>
> Oh, ok then. Everybody on this list attaches the factory-supplied towing
> supports and puts their plane on a trailer in the same attitude as the
> factory-supplied towbar.
> So no problems then!
>
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
what data did you use to determine that >10 miles is considered "long
distance", or is that a brown and smelly number? I have the full file from
the manufacture and did not see a hard number they considered a "long
distance". It seems the most info to be had in that statement was to "make
sure you have the wing braces installed when the wings are folded". This is
the brace that slips into the forward spar and pins in at the strut
attachment on the fuse.
In respect to you other post, it is safe to assume that the welds were made
using oxy acetylene and mild steel tubing. Atleast, the early pipers were
made this way. I would venture to say that a quick web search would back
this up as well as asking anyone of the number of people who have restored
one, or asking an A&P with Grey, thinning hair.
The service life you mentioned is more determined by how the AC was used not
really how many years old it is. If it was flown off grass strips or paved
runways and taken to shows every year and kept in a hangar and has 5000 hrs
on it, I would bet it is better shape and has less fatigue than a cub that
was built in '78 that has been flown in the Alaskan bush by a sheep or bear
guide yet it only has 2800 hrs on it.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224080#224080
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
> I think probably it would have, or better yet kept my comment and thoughts
on this subject to myself.
Hell no Lynn, from what I've read here you're a smart and tough old coot,
and your tinkering, even when it doesn't work, saves us from making the same
mistakes! ;-)
And I quote here from someone else on the list I don't know well, but
respect his opinion, Deke's sig says "The aim of an argument or discussion
should not be victory, but progress."
Amen to that
bob
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: 11 January 2009 2:50 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
What I was thinking, and didn't relate it all, was that every time I
hear the Rotax guys, and I guess any of the water-cooled guys talking
about that expensive waterless stuff, and having to relocate
radiators, and where to place the thermostat, and dealing with all
the hoses, etc., I just am thankful that air-cooled engines at least
don't have to worry about leakage and all the other attendant
problems that seem to come up so often.
Yes, air-cooled engines need their own touches to make them perfect,
but the proper coolant and possible loss thereof isn't one of them.
Yes, I've had problems with *my* engine, but not all the Jabs have
had the gear problem. Just like not all the water-cooled guys have
problems, not all the air-cooled engines break a timing gear.
Yes, the ignition system is a weak link, but I chose to replace mine
rather than glue the rotors on, because I wanted something different,
and better, and more modern. I could have changed caps and rotors
every month for 10 years and not spend what I did for my new
ignition, but I'm an experimenter and chose to spend the
money...overkill? Yes. Necessary? No. Am I satisfied? Yes.
If you didn't know I had those engine problems...or if I hadn't
mentioned it...and simply said "glad I chose an air-cooled engine",
would that have been better?I think probably it would have, or better
yet kept my comment and thoughts on this subject to myself.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 11, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Hey Lynn, Your comment blows my mind. Are you suggestion that
> your catastrophic failure of that hat shaped gear and your
> megabucks repair of that and your ignition mods to help mitigate a
> weak design there as well somehow relates to deciding whether or
> not to use evans coolant.
>
> Sorry if this comes along as a bit strong, and please correct me
> if I misunderstood your meaning.
>
> Lowell
> Do not archive
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 6:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>
>
>>
>> Not to start an engine war, but it is threads like this one that
>> make me smile about my choice of engine, even with all the
>> problems that I have had with mine.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>> ignition system;
>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>>
>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> This has sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant. I think we
>>> sometimes forget that there are many airplanes experimantal and
>>> certified that use a version of the Rotax 912. I know from
>>> group flying experience that the Rans S-7 has a cooling problem
>>> and often has to step climb to avoid going into temps I have
>>> never seen on my Model IV. It is my belief that the Evans
>>> coolant might be appropriate for that application as the temps
>>> are much higher than the boiling point of water. For me, I was
>>> never tempted to use it. It is sort of like putting a cast on a
>>> perfectly good leg because my friend has one on his leg.
>>>
>>> Lowell Fitt
>>> Cameron Park, CA
>>> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
>>> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing the precover
>>> checklist, Rudder trim system - my rib warp design, and Landing
>>> Gear - done.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"
>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:29 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>>>
>>>
>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, January 10, 2009 7:42 am, earnestj0 wrote:
>>>>> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Rick, I would appreciate a photo and also information
>>>>> on the "waterless" that
>>>>> you are talking about.
>>>>
>>>> "In the 1980s inventor Jack Evans discovered the advantages of
>>>> using a waterless
>>>> coolant. His final formulation is a mixture of ethylene glycol
>>>> and propylene glycol.
>>>> This coolant has a high boiling point of 188 C (370 F) and is
>>>> not corrosive, solving
>>>> many of water's problems including freezing."
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Antifreeze>
>>>>
>>>> I got curious and did a little research on this. Rick talked
>>>> about using NPG+ made by
>>>> Evans Cooling. Here is their website.
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/main1.htm>
>>>>
>>>> I found nothing on their website that was other than sales/
>>>> marketing/folklore
>>>> presentation. There is no "white paper" or generally accepted
>>>> format for research to
>>>> corroborate their claims.
>>>>
>>>> Their product is called "NPG+" which is a corrosion inhibited
>>>> propylene glycol
>>>> ethylene glycol blend.
>>>>
>>>> It has a much higher temperature boiling point than an ideal
>>>> mix of inhibited ethylene
>>>> glycol and water. However it is substantially more viscous
>>>> (especially at low
>>>> temperatures), has a lower heat capacity and offers less freeze
>>>> protection.
>>>>
>>>> They make a claim that major engine manufacturers and
>>>> specifically Rotax require their
>>>> fluid.
>>>>
>>>> I looked through all the Rotax service bulletins and found this:
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d02398.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> Well, from reading that, it sounds like it is a little less than
>>>> mandatory. A higher
>>>> pressure cap seems to be the emphasis and no where does it
>>>> actually say that NPG or
>>>> NPG+ is required.
>>>>
>>>> Evans summarizes the properties in a table at the bottom of
>>>> this page:
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm>
>>>>
>>>> I have done quite a bit of research on failures of heat transfer
>>>> systems filled with
>>>> food grade glycol (propylene) and inhibited ethylene glycol. In
>>>> fact I spent an entire
>>>> year doing so. In large mixed metal systems the expected life of
>>>> propylene glycol as a
>>>> coolant is significantly less than ethylene glycol systems. The
>>>> biggest contributor to
>>>> failure is entrained air and high operating temperatures. The
>>>> air oxidizes the glycol
>>>> forming fairly long molecular chain organic acids. The
>>>> inhibitors have capacity to
>>>> buffer the pH change to a limit. What you'll notice with
>>>> propylene glycol (NPG and
>>>> NPG+) filled systems is steady and gradual discoloration of the
>>>> coolant. It begins to
>>>> start turning brown soon after installing and at some point it
>>>> can start to form a
>>>> corrosive sludge that will plug heat exchangers. Of course in a
>>>> small engine, you
>>>> don't have to maintain inhibitors or worry about filtering, you
>>>> just drain, flush and
>>>> refill.
>>>>
>>>> Because of the significantly lower heat capacity of pure
>>>> inhibited propylene glycol,
>>>> more flow is required. For some applications this means using a
>>>> higher flow capacity
>>>> water pump and more tubes in the radiator. The Evans people, in
>>>> fact, sell cooling
>>>> system mods for engines they use in racing conditions because
>>>> of this.
>>>>
>>>> So, if you are convinced this is something you want to use, you
>>>> will need to change
>>>> out the fluid more often and use twice as much than if you use
>>>> 50-50 mix of water and
>>>> inhibited ethylene glycol and you will not have the freeze
>>>> protection and the NPG or
>>>> NPG+ should not be operated much below 40F which is
>>>> problematic in aircraft where the
>>>> ambient air temperature is often colder than this.
>>>>
>>>> I think using a higher pressure cap and the heavy duty
>>>> (extended life) rated for mixed
>>>> metals type of inhibited ethylene glycol which is color coded
>>>> orange in the US and is
>>>> the recommended fluid by Ford, GM, Chrysler, Caterpillar and
>>>> Cummins is my preference
>>>> and I will use in my Rotax 914.
>>>>
>>>> The extended life coolants use an entirely different corrosion
>>>> inhibiting chemistry
>>>> that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates,
>>>> phosphates or borates.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a brief overview of engine coolants:
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant.htm>
>>>>
>>>> I am neither endorsing nor discouraging the use of Evans'
>>>> waterless coolant.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Paul A. Franz
>>>> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
>>>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
>>>> Bellevue WA
>>>> 425.241.1618 Cell
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
This picture is from the avid yahoo list and shows how one person
installed transport braces.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/photos/album/1859297514/pic/1131
734089/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count &dir
=asc
note that there are 2 braces per wing. It looks like a good way to do
it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Brennan
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
"We recommend that you trailer your AVID FLYER if you want to
transport it
long distances [ie >10 miles]. Always install wing towing supports
when the
wings are folded"
<well-intentioned sarcasm>
Oh, ok then. Everybody on this list attaches the factory-supplied
towing
supports and puts their plane on a trailer in the same attitude as the
factory-supplied towbar.
So no problems then!
</sarcasm>
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 11 January 2009 1:09 pm
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> Since the same person also implied that there was no such thing as
> consideration of metal fatigue in the design does anyone know any
more
> about, or have documentation to support, the statement "light
structure
with
> high fatigue life" in that last paragraph? Obviously structure
fatigue was
a
> consideration, but is the airframe's actual "high fatigue life"
documented
> anywhere?
>
> Also does anyone know what the paragraph means by "towing" in the
statement
> "strong for towing"? I am thinking they meant towing with the
factory
> supplied towbar and braces at the recommended speed and distance
limits,
but
> it would be nice to have any confirmation.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
I wonder if it is possible that someone may have eaten alot of paint
chips
as a child.... who knows.... I guess that just as above has shown,
thinking
can get us all into trouble..
The full file is too large to post (12.8 MB) so I cut out the page for
transport. Read the last sentence on transport...
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes
over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224065#224065
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/avidflyerbrochure1990_7_162.pdf
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
Lynn,
I understand and after sending off the post I did a bit of Googling around
(Jabiru Cooling) and found a very interesting quote among many others folks
will have to find for themselves.
The quote reads: "My grandpa was a pretty smart fellow. One thing he used
to say is, "If we all wanted the same things, we'd all be chasing Grandma.""
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>
> What I was thinking, and didn't relate it all, was that every time I hear
> the Rotax guys, and I guess any of the water-cooled guys talking about
> that expensive waterless stuff, and having to relocate radiators, and
> where to place the thermostat, and dealing with all the hoses, etc., I
> just am thankful that air-cooled engines at least don't have to worry
> about leakage and all the other attendant problems that seem to come up
> so often.
>
> Yes, air-cooled engines need their own touches to make them perfect, but
> the proper coolant and possible loss thereof isn't one of them.
> Yes, I've had problems with *my* engine, but not all the Jabs have had
> the gear problem. Just like not all the water-cooled guys have problems,
> not all the air-cooled engines break a timing gear.
> Yes, the ignition system is a weak link, but I chose to replace mine
> rather than glue the rotors on, because I wanted something different, and
> better, and more modern. I could have changed caps and rotors every month
> for 10 years and not spend what I did for my new ignition, but I'm an
> experimenter and chose to spend the money...overkill? Yes. Necessary? No.
> Am I satisfied? Yes.
>
> If you didn't know I had those engine problems...or if I hadn't mentioned
> it...and simply said "glad I chose an air-cooled engine", would that have
> been better?I think probably it would have, or better yet kept my comment
> and thoughts on this subject to myself.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> ignition system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey Lynn, Your comment blows my mind. Are you suggestion that your
>> catastrophic failure of that hat shaped gear and your megabucks repair
>> of that and your ignition mods to help mitigate a weak design there as
>> well somehow relates to deciding whether or not to use evans coolant.
>>
>> Sorry if this comes along as a bit strong, and please correct me if I
>> misunderstood your meaning.
>>
>> Lowell
>> Do not archive
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 6:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Not to start an engine war, but it is threads like this one that make
>>> me smile about my choice of engine, even with all the problems that I
>>> have had with mine.
>>>
>>> Lynn Matteson
>>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
>>> Sensenich 62x46
>>> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>>> ignition system;
>>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>>> do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>>>
>>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>
>>>> Paul,
>>>>
>>>> This has sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant. I think we
>>>> sometimes forget that there are many airplanes experimantal and
>>>> certified that use a version of the Rotax 912. I know from group
>>>> flying experience that the Rans S-7 has a cooling problem and often
>>>> has to step climb to avoid going into temps I have never seen on my
>>>> Model IV. It is my belief that the Evans coolant might be
>>>> appropriate for that application as the temps are much higher than
>>>> the boiling point of water. For me, I was never tempted to use it.
>>>> It is sort of like putting a cast on a perfectly good leg because my
>>>> friend has one on his leg.
>>>>
>>>> Lowell Fitt
>>>> Cameron Park, CA
>>>> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
>>>> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing the precover checklist,
>>>> Rudder trim system - my rib warp design, and Landing Gear - done.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"
>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, January 10, 2009 7:42 am, earnestj0 wrote:
>>>>>> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Rick, I would appreciate a photo and also information on the
>>>>>> "waterless" that
>>>>>> you are talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>> "In the 1980s inventor Jack Evans discovered the advantages of using
>>>>> a waterless
>>>>> coolant. His final formulation is a mixture of ethylene glycol and
>>>>> propylene glycol.
>>>>> This coolant has a high boiling point of 188 C (370 F) and is not
>>>>> corrosive, solving
>>>>> many of water's problems including freezing."
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Antifreeze>
>>>>>
>>>>> I got curious and did a little research on this. Rick talked about
>>>>> using NPG+ made by
>>>>> Evans Cooling. Here is their website.
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/main1.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>> I found nothing on their website that was other than sales/
>>>>> marketing/folklore
>>>>> presentation. There is no "white paper" or generally accepted format
>>>>> for research to
>>>>> corroborate their claims.
>>>>>
>>>>> Their product is called "NPG+" which is a corrosion inhibited
>>>>> propylene glycol
>>>>> ethylene glycol blend.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has a much higher temperature boiling point than an ideal mix of
>>>>> inhibited ethylene
>>>>> glycol and water. However it is substantially more viscous
>>>>> (especially at low
>>>>> temperatures), has a lower heat capacity and offers less freeze
>>>>> protection.
>>>>>
>>>>> They make a claim that major engine manufacturers and specifically
>>>>> Rotax require their
>>>>> fluid.
>>>>>
>>>>> I looked through all the Rotax service bulletins and found this:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d02398.pdf>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, from reading that, it sounds like it is a little less than
>>>>> mandatory. A higher
>>>>> pressure cap seems to be the emphasis and no where does it actually
>>>>> say that NPG or
>>>>> NPG+ is required.
>>>>>
>>>>> Evans summarizes the properties in a table at the bottom of this
>>>>> page:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have done quite a bit of research on failures of heat transfer
>>>>> systems filled with
>>>>> food grade glycol (propylene) and inhibited ethylene glycol. In fact
>>>>> I spent an entire
>>>>> year doing so. In large mixed metal systems the expected life of
>>>>> propylene glycol as a
>>>>> coolant is significantly less than ethylene glycol systems. The
>>>>> biggest contributor to
>>>>> failure is entrained air and high operating temperatures. The air
>>>>> oxidizes the glycol
>>>>> forming fairly long molecular chain organic acids. The inhibitors
>>>>> have capacity to
>>>>> buffer the pH change to a limit. What you'll notice with propylene
>>>>> glycol (NPG and
>>>>> NPG+) filled systems is steady and gradual discoloration of the
>>>>> coolant. It begins to
>>>>> start turning brown soon after installing and at some point it can
>>>>> start to form a
>>>>> corrosive sludge that will plug heat exchangers. Of course in a
>>>>> small engine, you
>>>>> don't have to maintain inhibitors or worry about filtering, you just
>>>>> drain, flush and
>>>>> refill.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because of the significantly lower heat capacity of pure inhibited
>>>>> propylene glycol,
>>>>> more flow is required. For some applications this means using a
>>>>> higher flow capacity
>>>>> water pump and more tubes in the radiator. The Evans people, in
>>>>> fact, sell cooling
>>>>> system mods for engines they use in racing conditions because of
>>>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, if you are convinced this is something you want to use, you will
>>>>> need to change
>>>>> out the fluid more often and use twice as much than if you use 50-50
>>>>> mix of water and
>>>>> inhibited ethylene glycol and you will not have the freeze
>>>>> protection and the NPG or
>>>>> NPG+ should not be operated much below 40F which is problematic in
>>>>> aircraft where the
>>>>> ambient air temperature is often colder than this.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think using a higher pressure cap and the heavy duty (extended
>>>>> life) rated for mixed
>>>>> metals type of inhibited ethylene glycol which is color coded orange
>>>>> in the US and is
>>>>> the recommended fluid by Ford, GM, Chrysler, Caterpillar and Cummins
>>>>> is my preference
>>>>> and I will use in my Rotax 914.
>>>>>
>>>>> The extended life coolants use an entirely different corrosion
>>>>> inhibiting chemistry
>>>>> that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates,
>>>>> phosphates or borates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's a brief overview of engine coolants:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am neither endorsing nor discouraging the use of Evans' waterless
>>>>> coolant.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Paul A. Franz
>>>>> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
>>>>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
>>>>> Bellevue WA
>>>>> 425.241.1618 Cell
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
Who you callin' "old" and when did my tinkering NOT work? ...I'm
kidding, Bob..... : ) And speaking of saving "us from making the
same mistakes", if I've saved just one person from buying a Jabiru,
I'll consider that progress.....(and another engine saved for my own
purchase.) : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 11, 2009, at 3:06 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
>> I think probably it would have, or better yet kept my comment and
>> thoughts
> on this subject to myself.
>
> Hell no Lynn, from what I've read here you're a smart and tough old
> coot,
> and your tinkering, even when it doesn't work, saves us from making
> the same
> mistakes! ;-)
>
> And I quote here from someone else on the list I don't know well, but
> respect his opinion, Deke's sig says "The aim of an argument or
> discussion
> should not be victory, but progress."
>
> Amen to that
> bob
>
> do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: 11 January 2009 2:50 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>
>
> What I was thinking, and didn't relate it all, was that every time I
> hear the Rotax guys, and I guess any of the water-cooled guys talking
> about that expensive waterless stuff, and having to relocate
> radiators, and where to place the thermostat, and dealing with all
> the hoses, etc., I just am thankful that air-cooled engines at least
> don't have to worry about leakage and all the other attendant
> problems that seem to come up so often.
>
> Yes, air-cooled engines need their own touches to make them perfect,
> but the proper coolant and possible loss thereof isn't one of them.
> Yes, I've had problems with *my* engine, but not all the Jabs have
> had the gear problem. Just like not all the water-cooled guys have
> problems, not all the air-cooled engines break a timing gear.
> Yes, the ignition system is a weak link, but I chose to replace mine
> rather than glue the rotors on, because I wanted something different,
> and better, and more modern. I could have changed caps and rotors
> every month for 10 years and not spend what I did for my new
> ignition, but I'm an experimenter and chose to spend the
> money...overkill? Yes. Necessary? No. Am I satisfied? Yes.
>
> If you didn't know I had those engine problems...or if I hadn't
> mentioned it...and simply said "glad I chose an air-cooled engine",
> would that have been better?I think probably it would have, or better
> yet kept my comment and thoughts on this subject to myself.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> ignition system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>
>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> Hey Lynn, Your comment blows my mind. Are you suggestion that
>> your catastrophic failure of that hat shaped gear and your
>> megabucks repair of that and your ignition mods to help mitigate a
>> weak design there as well somehow relates to deciding whether or
>> not to use evans coolant.
>>
>> Sorry if this comes along as a bit strong, and please correct me
>> if I misunderstood your meaning.
>>
>> Lowell
>> Do not archive
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 6:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Not to start an engine war, but it is threads like this one that
>>> make me smile about my choice of engine, even with all the
>>> problems that I have had with mine.
>>>
>>> Lynn Matteson
>>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
>>> Sensenich 62x46
>>> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>>> ignition system;
>>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>>> do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>>>
>>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>
>>>> Paul,
>>>>
>>>> This has sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant. I think we
>>>> sometimes forget that there are many airplanes experimantal and
>>>> certified that use a version of the Rotax 912. I know from
>>>> group flying experience that the Rans S-7 has a cooling problem
>>>> and often has to step climb to avoid going into temps I have
>>>> never seen on my Model IV. It is my belief that the Evans
>>>> coolant might be appropriate for that application as the temps
>>>> are much higher than the boiling point of water. For me, I was
>>>> never tempted to use it. It is sort of like putting a cast on a
>>>> perfectly good leg because my friend has one on his leg.
>>>>
>>>> Lowell Fitt
>>>> Cameron Park, CA
>>>> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
>>>> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing the precover
>>>> checklist, Rudder trim system - my rib warp design, and Landing
>>>> Gear - done.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"
>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, January 10, 2009 7:42 am, earnestj0 wrote:
>>>>>> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Rick, I would appreciate a photo and also information
>>>>>> on the "waterless" that
>>>>>> you are talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>> "In the 1980s inventor Jack Evans discovered the advantages of
>>>>> using a waterless
>>>>> coolant. His final formulation is a mixture of ethylene glycol
>>>>> and propylene glycol.
>>>>> This coolant has a high boiling point of 188 C (370 F) and is
>>>>> not corrosive, solving
>>>>> many of water's problems including freezing."
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Antifreeze>
>>>>>
>>>>> I got curious and did a little research on this. Rick talked
>>>>> about using NPG+ made by
>>>>> Evans Cooling. Here is their website.
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/main1.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>> I found nothing on their website that was other than sales/
>>>>> marketing/folklore
>>>>> presentation. There is no "white paper" or generally accepted
>>>>> format for research to
>>>>> corroborate their claims.
>>>>>
>>>>> Their product is called "NPG+" which is a corrosion inhibited
>>>>> propylene glycol
>>>>> ethylene glycol blend.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has a much higher temperature boiling point than an ideal
>>>>> mix of inhibited ethylene
>>>>> glycol and water. However it is substantially more viscous
>>>>> (especially at low
>>>>> temperatures), has a lower heat capacity and offers less freeze
>>>>> protection.
>>>>>
>>>>> They make a claim that major engine manufacturers and
>>>>> specifically Rotax require their
>>>>> fluid.
>>>>>
>>>>> I looked through all the Rotax service bulletins and found this:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d02398.pdf>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, from reading that, it sounds like it is a little less than
>>>>> mandatory. A higher
>>>>> pressure cap seems to be the emphasis and no where does it
>>>>> actually say that NPG or
>>>>> NPG+ is required.
>>>>>
>>>>> Evans summarizes the properties in a table at the bottom of
>>>>> this page:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have done quite a bit of research on failures of heat transfer
>>>>> systems filled with
>>>>> food grade glycol (propylene) and inhibited ethylene glycol. In
>>>>> fact I spent an entire
>>>>> year doing so. In large mixed metal systems the expected life of
>>>>> propylene glycol as a
>>>>> coolant is significantly less than ethylene glycol systems. The
>>>>> biggest contributor to
>>>>> failure is entrained air and high operating temperatures. The
>>>>> air oxidizes the glycol
>>>>> forming fairly long molecular chain organic acids. The
>>>>> inhibitors have capacity to
>>>>> buffer the pH change to a limit. What you'll notice with
>>>>> propylene glycol (NPG and
>>>>> NPG+) filled systems is steady and gradual discoloration of the
>>>>> coolant. It begins to
>>>>> start turning brown soon after installing and at some point it
>>>>> can start to form a
>>>>> corrosive sludge that will plug heat exchangers. Of course in a
>>>>> small engine, you
>>>>> don't have to maintain inhibitors or worry about filtering, you
>>>>> just drain, flush and
>>>>> refill.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because of the significantly lower heat capacity of pure
>>>>> inhibited propylene glycol,
>>>>> more flow is required. For some applications this means using a
>>>>> higher flow capacity
>>>>> water pump and more tubes in the radiator. The Evans people, in
>>>>> fact, sell cooling
>>>>> system mods for engines they use in racing conditions because
>>>>> of this.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, if you are convinced this is something you want to use, you
>>>>> will need to change
>>>>> out the fluid more often and use twice as much than if you use
>>>>> 50-50 mix of water and
>>>>> inhibited ethylene glycol and you will not have the freeze
>>>>> protection and the NPG or
>>>>> NPG+ should not be operated much below 40F which is
>>>>> problematic in aircraft where the
>>>>> ambient air temperature is often colder than this.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think using a higher pressure cap and the heavy duty
>>>>> (extended life) rated for mixed
>>>>> metals type of inhibited ethylene glycol which is color coded
>>>>> orange in the US and is
>>>>> the recommended fluid by Ford, GM, Chrysler, Caterpillar and
>>>>> Cummins is my preference
>>>>> and I will use in my Rotax 914.
>>>>>
>>>>> The extended life coolants use an entirely different corrosion
>>>>> inhibiting chemistry
>>>>> that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates,
>>>>> phosphates or borates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's a brief overview of engine coolants:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am neither endorsing nor discouraging the use of Evans'
>>>>> waterless coolant.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Paul A. Franz
>>>>> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
>>>>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
>>>>> Bellevue WA
>>>>> 425.241.1618 Cell
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
FWIW, TCSD for the Taylorcraft L-2 can be found at:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgMakeModel.nsf/
0/A9F4EAFB56CCBA638525673E00624DE4/$FILE/a-699.pdf
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
That depends on if you call the Kitfox Owner's Manual "brown and
smelly"(huh?) Leonard. From the manual, posted at
http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf, page 5 - "The airplane should not
be towed on its own gear for long distances (more than 10 miles)."
Thanks for your ideas regarding the question of service life of a
fabric-and-tube aircraft, such as the Kitfox and the Taylorcraft. As I said
when the designer of the Avid stated "higher fatigue life" I am guessing he
meant higher than old Cubs and that sort of design, which I am also guessing
was a starting point for the design of the Avid and eventually the Kitfox.
I'll do some research on the service lifetime of that type of aircraft later
tonight, and/or leave the question open to anyone else on the list who may
have some real numbers or know where to get them.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 11 January 2009 2:41 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> "We recommend that you trailer your AVID FLYER if you want to transport it
> long distances [ie >10 miles]. Always install wing towing supports when
the
> wings are folded"
>
>
> Oh, ok then. Everybody on this list attaches the factory-supplied towing
> supports and puts their plane on a trailer in the same attitude as the
> factory-supplied towbar.
> So no problems then!
>
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
what data did you use to determine that >10 miles is considered "long
distance", or is that a brown and smelly number? I have the full file from
the manufacture and did not see a hard number they considered a "long
distance". It seems the most info to be had in that statement was to "make
sure you have the wing braces installed when the wings are folded". This is
the brace that slips into the forward spar and pins in at the strut
attachment on the fuse.
In respect to you other post, it is safe to assume that the welds were made
using oxy acetylene and mild steel tubing. Atleast, the early pipers were
made this way. I would venture to say that a quick web search would back
this up as well as asking anyone of the number of people who have restored
one, or asking an A&P with Grey, thinning hair.
The service life you mentioned is more determined by how the AC was used not
really how many years old it is. If it was flown off grass strips or paved
runways and taken to shows every year and kept in a hangar and has 5000 hrs
on it, I would bet it is better shape and has less fatigue than a cub that
was built in '78 that has been flown in the Alaskan bush by a sheep or bear
guide yet it only has 2800 hrs on it.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224080#224080
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
I've done some more thinking too, Lowell, and it would have better if
I had just posted the following: air-cooling versus liquid-
cooling...which is less troublesome? Both camps have their plusses
and minuses, but after reading Paul's post regarding Evans Coolant,
and then thinking about all the air burping and pressure cap talk,
water pump flow, location of radiator in or out of the airstream,
people having to make up special nipples for heater hose connections,
and I can't begin to remember all the other posts I've read regarding
liquid cooling, it just *seems* like there is less talk over on the
Jabiru site regarding cooling issues. Because I don't search out all
the other engine groups, I'm basing my comments on the Matronics
Kitfox list, and the Yahoo Jab group and the Matronics Jabiru-Engine
(almost non-existent) list. Granted, Jabiru had early cooling
problems and solved them by increasing the number of head fins and
fin area. Most of the rest of their cooling can be dealt with by the
strategic placement of baffles, or by establishing the proper cowl
inlet and outlet area and shape. I wasn't into aircraft when Rotax
began using their engines in airplanes, so I don't know their
history, but it *seems* like Jabiru has built an engine, perhaps
stopping a bit short of engineering it all the way, then marketed it
before it was ready to be marketed, relying on the customer to do
their test program for them. I say this based on my findings with my
engine....others may not have the hours that I've put on mine, so
haven't got to the point in their engine's life that mine has gotten
to. But as I've said before, I may have the fruit of the lemon tree,
but it's my lemon and I'm trying to sweeten it as best I can......OH
MAN!, is that poetic or what??????
But I
digress................................again................... : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 11, 2009, at 3:40 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Lynn,
>
> I understand and after sending off the post I did a bit of Googling
> around (Jabiru Cooling) and found a very interesting quote among
> many others folks will have to find for themselves.
>
> The quote reads: "My grandpa was a pretty smart fellow. One
> thing he used to say is, "If we all wanted the same things, we'd
> all be chasing Grandma.""
>
> Lowell
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>
>
>>
>> What I was thinking, and didn't relate it all, was that every time
>> I hear the Rotax guys, and I guess any of the water-cooled guys
>> talking about that expensive waterless stuff, and having to
>> relocate radiators, and where to place the thermostat, and
>> dealing with all the hoses, etc., I just am thankful that air-
>> cooled engines at least don't have to worry about leakage and
>> all the other attendant problems that seem to come up so often.
>>
>> Yes, air-cooled engines need their own touches to make them
>> perfect, but the proper coolant and possible loss thereof isn't
>> one of them.
>> Yes, I've had problems with *my* engine, but not all the Jabs
>> have had the gear problem. Just like not all the water-cooled
>> guys have problems, not all the air-cooled engines break a timing
>> gear.
>> Yes, the ignition system is a weak link, but I chose to replace
>> mine rather than glue the rotors on, because I wanted something
>> different, and better, and more modern. I could have changed caps
>> and rotors every month for 10 years and not spend what I did for
>> my new ignition, but I'm an experimenter and chose to spend the
>> money...overkill? Yes. Necessary? No. Am I satisfied? Yes.
>>
>> If you didn't know I had those engine problems...or if I hadn't
>> mentioned it...and simply said "glad I chose an air-cooled
>> engine", would that have been better?I think probably it would
>> have, or better yet kept my comment and thoughts on this subject
>> to myself.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>> ignition system;
>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>>
>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>>
>>> Hey Lynn, Your comment blows my mind. Are you suggestion that
>>> your catastrophic failure of that hat shaped gear and your
>>> megabucks repair of that and your ignition mods to help mitigate
>>> a weak design there as well somehow relates to deciding whether
>>> or not to use evans coolant.
>>>
>>> Sorry if this comes along as a bit strong, and please correct
>>> me if I misunderstood your meaning.
>>>
>>> Lowell
>>> Do not archive
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson"
>>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 6:16 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not to start an engine war, but it is threads like this one
>>>> that make me smile about my choice of engine, even with all
>>>> the problems that I have had with mine.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn Matteson
>>>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>>>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
>>>> Sensenich 62x46
>>>> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-
>>>> fire ignition system;
>>>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>> This has sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant. I think we
>>>>> sometimes forget that there are many airplanes experimantal and
>>>>> certified that use a version of the Rotax 912. I know from
>>>>> group flying experience that the Rans S-7 has a cooling
>>>>> problem and often has to step climb to avoid going into temps
>>>>> I have never seen on my Model IV. It is my belief that the
>>>>> Evans coolant might be appropriate for that application as the
>>>>> temps are much higher than the boiling point of water. For
>>>>> me, I was never tempted to use it. It is sort of like putting
>>>>> a cast on a perfectly good leg because my friend has one on
>>>>> his leg.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lowell Fitt
>>>>> Cameron Park, CA
>>>>> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
>>>>> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing the precover
>>>>> checklist, Rudder trim system - my rib warp design, and
>>>>> Landing Gear - done.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"
>>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:29 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, January 10, 2009 7:42 am, earnestj0 wrote:
>>>>>>> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks Rick, I would appreciate a photo and also information
>>>>>>> on the "waterless" that
>>>>>>> you are talking about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "In the 1980s inventor Jack Evans discovered the advantages
>>>>>> of using a waterless
>>>>>> coolant. His final formulation is a mixture of ethylene
>>>>>> glycol and propylene glycol.
>>>>>> This coolant has a high boiling point of 188 C (370 F) and
>>>>>> is not corrosive, solving
>>>>>> many of water's problems including freezing."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Antifreeze>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got curious and did a little research on this. Rick talked
>>>>>> about using NPG+ made by
>>>>>> Evans Cooling. Here is their website.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/main1.htm>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I found nothing on their website that was other than sales/
>>>>>> marketing/folklore
>>>>>> presentation. There is no "white paper" or generally
>>>>>> accepted format for research to
>>>>>> corroborate their claims.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Their product is called "NPG+" which is a corrosion inhibited
>>>>>> propylene glycol
>>>>>> ethylene glycol blend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It has a much higher temperature boiling point than an ideal
>>>>>> mix of inhibited ethylene
>>>>>> glycol and water. However it is substantially more viscous
>>>>>> (especially at low
>>>>>> temperatures), has a lower heat capacity and offers less
>>>>>> freeze protection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They make a claim that major engine manufacturers and
>>>>>> specifically Rotax require their
>>>>>> fluid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I looked through all the Rotax service bulletins and found this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d02398.pdf>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, from reading that, it sounds like it is a little less
>>>>>> than mandatory. A higher
>>>>>> pressure cap seems to be the emphasis and no where does it
>>>>>> actually say that NPG or
>>>>>> NPG+ is required.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evans summarizes the properties in a table at the bottom of
>>>>>> this page:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have done quite a bit of research on failures of heat
>>>>>> transfer systems filled with
>>>>>> food grade glycol (propylene) and inhibited ethylene glycol.
>>>>>> In fact I spent an entire
>>>>>> year doing so. In large mixed metal systems the expected life
>>>>>> of propylene glycol as a
>>>>>> coolant is significantly less than ethylene glycol systems.
>>>>>> The biggest contributor to
>>>>>> failure is entrained air and high operating temperatures. The
>>>>>> air oxidizes the glycol
>>>>>> forming fairly long molecular chain organic acids. The
>>>>>> inhibitors have capacity to
>>>>>> buffer the pH change to a limit. What you'll notice with
>>>>>> propylene glycol (NPG and
>>>>>> NPG+) filled systems is steady and gradual discoloration of
>>>>>> the coolant. It begins to
>>>>>> start turning brown soon after installing and at some point
>>>>>> it can start to form a
>>>>>> corrosive sludge that will plug heat exchangers. Of course in
>>>>>> a small engine, you
>>>>>> don't have to maintain inhibitors or worry about filtering,
>>>>>> you just drain, flush and
>>>>>> refill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because of the significantly lower heat capacity of pure
>>>>>> inhibited propylene glycol,
>>>>>> more flow is required. For some applications this means using
>>>>>> a higher flow capacity
>>>>>> water pump and more tubes in the radiator. The Evans people,
>>>>>> in fact, sell cooling
>>>>>> system mods for engines they use in racing conditions because
>>>>>> of this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, if you are convinced this is something you want to use,
>>>>>> you will need to change
>>>>>> out the fluid more often and use twice as much than if you
>>>>>> use 50-50 mix of water and
>>>>>> inhibited ethylene glycol and you will not have the freeze
>>>>>> protection and the NPG or
>>>>>> NPG+ should not be operated much below 40F which is
>>>>>> problematic in aircraft where the
>>>>>> ambient air temperature is often colder than this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think using a higher pressure cap and the heavy duty
>>>>>> (extended life) rated for mixed
>>>>>> metals type of inhibited ethylene glycol which is color
>>>>>> coded orange in the US and is
>>>>>> the recommended fluid by Ford, GM, Chrysler, Caterpillar and
>>>>>> Cummins is my preference
>>>>>> and I will use in my Rotax 914.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The extended life coolants use an entirely different corrosion
>>>>>> inhibiting chemistry
>>>>>> that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates,
>>>>>> phosphates or borates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's a brief overview of engine coolants:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant.htm>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am neither endorsing nor discouraging the use of Evans'
>>>>>> waterless coolant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Paul A. Franz
>>>>>> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
>>>>>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
>>>>>> Bellevue WA
>>>>>> 425.241.1618 Cell
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
Thanks for the link John, I'll print that out for the next time I give that
L2 a good looking over. It last flew in 1995 and has quite a bit of fabric
damage, so I don't think it's going anywhere too soon.
Bob
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Hart
Sent: 11 January 2009 5:00 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
FWIW, TCSD for the Taylorcraft L-2 can be found at:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgMakeModel.nsf/
0/A9F4EAFB56CCBA638525673E00624DE4/$FILE/a-699.pdf
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
That depends on if you call the Kitfox Owner's Manual "brown and
smelly"(huh?) Leonard. From the manual, posted at
http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf, page 5 - "The airplane should not
be towed on its own gear for long distances (more than 10 miles)."
Thanks for your ideas regarding the question of service life of a
fabric-and-tube aircraft, such as the Kitfox and the Taylorcraft. As I said
when the designer of the Avid stated "higher fatigue life" I am guessing he
meant higher than old Cubs and that sort of design, which I am also guessing
was a starting point for the design of the Avid and eventually the Kitfox.
I'll do some research on the service lifetime of that type of aircraft later
tonight, and/or leave the question open to anyone else on the list who may
have some real numbers or know where to get them.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 11 January 2009 2:41 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> "We recommend that you trailer your AVID FLYER if you want to transport it
> long distances [ie >10 miles]. Always install wing towing supports when
the
> wings are folded"
>
>
> Oh, ok then. Everybody on this list attaches the factory-supplied towing
> supports and puts their plane on a trailer in the same attitude as the
> factory-supplied towbar.
> So no problems then!
>
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
what data did you use to determine that >10 miles is considered "long
distance", or is that a brown and smelly number? I have the full file from
the manufacture and did not see a hard number they considered a "long
distance". It seems the most info to be had in that statement was to "make
sure you have the wing braces installed when the wings are folded". This is
the brace that slips into the forward spar and pins in at the strut
attachment on the fuse.
In respect to you other post, it is safe to assume that the welds were made
using oxy acetylene and mild steel tubing. Atleast, the early pipers were
made this way. I would venture to say that a quick web search would back
this up as well as asking anyone of the number of people who have restored
one, or asking an A&P with Grey, thinning hair.
The service life you mentioned is more determined by how the AC was used not
really how many years old it is. If it was flown off grass strips or paved
runways and taken to shows every year and kept in a hangar and has 5000 hrs
on it, I would bet it is better shape and has less fatigue than a cub that
was built in '78 that has been flown in the Alaskan bush by a sheep or bear
guide yet it only has 2800 hrs on it.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224080#224080
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
You're right Leonard, the service life of a commercial aircraft is limited
to a number of take-off and landing "cycles" rather than hours flown,
specifically because of the predicted occurrence of fatigue failure after a
certain number of "cycles", which is where all the stress occurs.
However, I also know from working at a flight data recorder analysis company
for a while that *any* non-flight related stress on a commercial airliner
requires mandatory inspection for stress fractures. Tail scrapes, bumping
into or being bumped by something, hard landings, departure from a taxiway
or runway, all these things and more require an inspection before the
aircraft can be put back in commercial service.
My DAR was surprised to see my airframe logbook contained the number of
take-offs and landings per entry as well as the hours flown, and the engine
logbook has a running count of starts and stops. Apparently you yanks don't
record those details?
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 11 January 2009 2:41 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> "We recommend that you trailer your AVID FLYER if you want to transport it
> long distances [ie >10 miles]. Always install wing towing supports when
the
> wings are folded"
>
>
> Oh, ok then. Everybody on this list attaches the factory-supplied towing
> supports and puts their plane on a trailer in the same attitude as the
> factory-supplied towbar.
> So no problems then!
>
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
what data did you use to determine that >10 miles is considered "long
distance", or is that a brown and smelly number? I have the full file from
the manufacture and did not see a hard number they considered a "long
distance". It seems the most info to be had in that statement was to "make
sure you have the wing braces installed when the wings are folded". This is
the brace that slips into the forward spar and pins in at the strut
attachment on the fuse.
In respect to you other post, it is safe to assume that the welds were made
using oxy acetylene and mild steel tubing. Atleast, the early pipers were
made this way. I would venture to say that a quick web search would back
this up as well as asking anyone of the number of people who have restored
one, or asking an A&P with Grey, thinning hair.
The service life you mentioned is more determined by how the AC was used not
really how many years old it is. If it was flown off grass strips or paved
runways and taken to shows every year and kept in a hangar and has 5000 hrs
on it, I would bet it is better shape and has less fatigue than a cub that
was built in '78 that has been flown in the Alaskan bush by a sheep or bear
guide yet it only has 2800 hrs on it.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224080#224080
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> You're right Leonard, the service life of a commercial aircraft is limited
> to a number of take-off and landing "cycles" rather than hours flown,
> specifically because of the predicted occurrence of fatigue failure after a
> certain number of "cycles", which is where all the stress occurs.
>
> However, I also know from working at a flight data recorder analysis company
> for a while that *any* non-flight related stress on a commercial airliner
> requires mandatory inspection for stress fractures. Tail scrapes, bumping
> into or being bumped by something, hard landings, departure from a taxiway
> or runway, all these things and more require an inspection before the
> aircraft can be put back in commercial service.
>
> My DAR was surprised to see my airframe logbook contained the number of
> take-offs and landings per entry as well as the hours flown, and the engine
> logbook has a running count of starts and stops. Apparently you yanks don't
> record those details?
>
> bob
>
> --
I was getting more at how the aircraft is used, not necessarily commercial or not.
To keep it relevant, if you were looking at buying a used Kitfox (as an example),
you would probably be better off buying one from a guy that has only flown
it on sunny days, it has had a set of wheel pants on it since day one (and they
are not cracked) and there is not one spec of dirt on it, as opposed to buying
one that I have flown lol... Mine has big tires and sees most of its action
on unimproved strips, getting abused (or should I say used to the full potential)
as they were originally designed to be used. I also trailer mine every flight
so I can keep it in a nice warm garage instead of out in the -34 crap we
have had sitting on top of us for the last 3 weeks.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224110#224110
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Need Model IV interior |
It's me again asking if someone in Kitfox land has an old interior that
will fit in a Model IV that I can buy. If I come up empty handed, I'll
be calling John to order a new one. My wife wanted me to try the list
first and get a used one cheaper and she obviously doesn't seem to care
what color it is. I'm hoping someone out there might have changed out
some seats at some time or another. Please email me off list at
pmorel@bellsouth.net
I want to thank Ron Smith for coming to my aid with a glairshield and
Norm Vrooman with a seatpan. This truly is great fraternity of Kitfox
enthusiasts that help each other get our planes in the air and help keep
them there!
Paul Morel
912 Model IV Speedster
Locust Grove, GA
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
Was just thing about the post a year ago of how you could take the wing spar
bolts out in flight and they would not go anywhere. Compression forces. In
transit the forces are just the opposite especially if the tail is left
down.
Dwight Purdy
model II
----- Original Message -----
From: "815TL" <lawrenceaw@corning.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:05 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
>
>
> Dick Maddux wrote:
>> I know we have beat this subject to death but I really would like to
>> solicit an opinion on the best way to check the rear spar pivot point for
>> damage. Unfortunately I had to trailer my Kitfox from just south of
>> Boston to Pensacola ,Fl due to the lousy weather enroute when I bought
>> it. It was towed on a tandem wheel trailer and it was a rough ride on the
>> interstate due to the light weight of the Kitfox. The tanks were empty
>> and the front brace bar was installed. I examined the rear spar pivot
>> point visually upon arrival as I thought this might be a possible weak
>> point. It appeared to be ok but now with all this discussion I think I
>> will reexamine it. Any good ideas on how to check it other than visual
>> (i.e.: dye penetrant,etc) Any other areas to check?
>> Thanks
>> ? Dick Maddux
>> ? Fox 4-1200
>> ? Pensacola Fl
>>
>>
>>
>> New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines
>> (http://news.aol.com?ncid=emlcntusnews00000002).
>
>
> I have to second this request. I did not even give it a thought as I
> figured the support was enough. My plane has flown a handfull of times
> since the 1100 mile journey, but it would be nice to make sure those
> attach points are sound. I looked them over as well and they looked OK,
> but if there are any other methods of checking them, it would make me feel
> even more secure.
>
> Andrew
> 815TL, Kitfox II, 582-C
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223946#223946
>
>
>
Message 34
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
So never buy a Kitfox from Leonard Perry... got it ;-)
Mine had been through 5 owners already when I got it, and I was not a
wizened aircraft buyer at the time (an owner-virgin one might say). Other
than a leaky wing tank, leaky tyre (Brit for "tire"), and at least one owner
who thought electrical tape was the only way to repair anything on an
airplane... I think I got lucky and got myself a really perfect aeroplane
(Brit for "airplane"), for my purposes at least.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 11 January 2009 6:26 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> You're right Leonard, the service life of a commercial aircraft is limited
> to a number of take-off and landing "cycles" rather than hours flown,
> specifically because of the predicted occurrence of fatigue failure after
a
> certain number of "cycles", which is where all the stress occurs.
>
> However, I also know from working at a flight data recorder analysis
company
> for a while that *any* non-flight related stress on a commercial airliner
> requires mandatory inspection for stress fractures. Tail scrapes, bumping
> into or being bumped by something, hard landings, departure from a taxiway
> or runway, all these things and more require an inspection before the
> aircraft can be put back in commercial service.
>
> My DAR was surprised to see my airframe logbook contained the number of
> take-offs and landings per entry as well as the hours flown, and the
engine
> logbook has a running count of starts and stops. Apparently you yanks
don't
> record those details?
>
> bob
>
> --
I was getting more at how the aircraft is used, not necessarily commercial
or not.
To keep it relevant, if you were looking at buying a used Kitfox (as an
example), you would probably be better off buying one from a guy that has
only flown it on sunny days, it has had a set of wheel pants on it since day
one (and they are not cracked) and there is not one spec of dirt on it, as
opposed to buying one that I have flown lol... Mine has big tires and sees
most of its action on unimproved strips, getting abused (or should I say
used to the full potential) as they were originally designed to be used. I
also trailer mine every flight so I can keep it in a nice warm garage
instead of out in the -34 crap we have had sitting on top of us for the last
3 weeks.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224110#224110
Message 35
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel flow indicator |
It is a "turbine" in there not an impeller.... now you can brag about having a
turbine in your kitfox....
Here are a couple pics of mine
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224120#224120
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/transducer_install_2_161.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/transducer_install_1_608.jpg
Message 36
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: recording in logs |
On Sun, January 11, 2009 2:52 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:
> My DAR was surprised to see my airframe logbook contained the number of
> take-offs and landings per entry as well as the hours flown, and the engine
> logbook has a running count of starts and stops. Apparently you yanks don't
> record those details?
My Pilot's log has all those entries plus flight instruction and ratings updates.
My engine logs for my certified aircraft had only entries made by certified inspectors
and repairman.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 37
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
I record all the landings....assuming I made a take-off to get to
that point...and hours and tenths, plus where I went, amount of fuel
installed in plane and miles flown.
If something eventful happens, I note that too...like taking off up
through fog (known thickness) during one brain fart incident: Note
to self: "Don't ever do this again."
I since then bought an artificial horizon, so I may not have learned
my lesson. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 11, 2009, at 5:52 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> My DAR was surprised to see my airframe logbook contained the
> number of
> take-offs and landings per entry as well as the hours flown, and
> the engine
> logbook has a running count of starts and stops. Apparently you
> yanks don't
> record those details?
>
> bob
Message 38
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel flow indicator |
Touche.... : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 11, 2009, at 7:38 PM, akflyer wrote:
>
> It is a "turbine" in there not an impeller..
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis
> takes over.
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224120#224120
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/transducer_install_2_161.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/transducer_install_1_608.jpg
>
>
Message 39
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Need Model IV interior |
Paul,
This is on list because others might benefit. This was some time ago but
one of our list members - since on to other endeavors - used chair covers he
found at Walmart? Actually I don't recall exactly where he got them, but
after his report, several others got them there and the talk was that they
fit exactly. I suspect this info can be found in the archives. The former
lister is Don Smythe.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Morel" <pmorel@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 3:35 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Need Model IV interior
It's me again asking if someone in Kitfox land has an old interior that will
fit in a Model IV that I can buy. If I come up empty handed, I'll be
calling John to order a new one. My wife wanted me to try the list first
and get a used one cheaper and she obviously doesn't seem to care what color
it is. I'm hoping someone out there might have changed out some seats at
some time or another. Please email me off list at pmorel@bellsouth.net
I want to thank Ron Smith for coming to my aid with a glairshield and Norm
Vrooman with a seatpan. This truly is great fraternity of Kitfox
enthusiasts that help each other get our planes in the air and help keep
them there!
Paul Morel
912 Model IV Speedster
Locust Grove, GA
Message 40
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
Gee=2C I guess that its my turn now. Not too many air cooled cars left on
road=2C wonder why. If I had known about all of these problems with liquid
cooled engines=2C wouldn't have sold my bug. Takes a long time to read th
ese comments about engines. If you like it or not=2C Rotax is engine of ch
oice for darn good reasons. I am sure the 912ULS will out perform the Jab
3300 with not as much fuel burn.
Clint with a lot of hours in those dreaded liquid cooled engines.> From: ly
nnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat> Date:
Sun=2C 11 Jan 2009 17:11:29 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > --> Ki
tfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>> > I've done
some more thinking too=2C Lowell=2C and it would have better if > I had jus
t posted the following: air-cooling versus liquid- > cooling...which is les
s troublesome? Both camps have their plusses > and minuses=2C but after rea
ding Paul's post regarding Evans Coolant=2C > and then thinking about all t
he air burping and pressure cap talk=2C > water pump flow=2C location of ra
diator in or out of the airstream=2C > people having to make up special nip
ples for heater hose connections=2C > and I can't begin to remember all the
other posts I've read regarding > liquid cooling=2C it just *seems* like t
here is less talk over on the > Jabiru site regarding cooling issues. Becau
se I don't search out all > the other engine groups=2C I'm basing my commen
ts on the Matronics > Kitfox list=2C and the Yahoo Jab group and the Matron
ics Jabiru-Engine > (almost non-existent) list. Granted=2C Jabiru had early
cooling > problems and solved them by increasing the number of head fins a
nd > fin area. Most of the rest of their cooling can be dealt with by the >
strategic placement of baffles=2C or by establishing the proper cowl > inl
et and outlet area and shape. I wasn't into aircraft when Rotax > began usi
ng their engines in airplanes=2C so I don't know their > history=2C but it
*seems* like Jabiru has built an engine=2C perhaps > stopping a bit short o
f engineering it all the way=2C then marketed it > before it was ready to b
e marketed=2C relying on the customer to do > their test program for them.
I say this based on my findings with my > engine....others may not have the
hours that I've put on mine=2C so > haven't got to the point in their engi
ne's life that mine has gotten > to. But as I've said before=2C I may have
the fruit of the lemon tree=2C > but it's my lemon and I'm trying to sweete
n it as best I can......OH > MAN!=2C is that poetic or what??????> > But I
> digress................................again................... : )> > >
> Lynn Matteson> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062
=2C 600.2 hrs> Sensenich 62x46> flying again after engine rebuild=2C and ne
w Electroair direct-fire > ignition system=3B> also building a new pair of
snow skis> do not archive> > > > On Jan 11=2C 2009=2C at 3:40 PM=2C Lowell
tt@sbcglobal.net>> >> > Lynn=2C> >> > I understand and after sending off th
e post I did a bit of Googling > > around (Jabiru Cooling) and found a very
interesting quote among > > many others folks will have to find for themse
lves.> >> > The quote reads: "My grandpa was a pretty smart fellow. One > >
thing he used to say is=2C "If we all wanted the same things=2C we'd > > a
ll be chasing Grandma.""> >> > Lowell> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
"Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>> > S
ent: Sunday=2C January 11=2C 2009 11:50 AM> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re:
atteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>> >>> >> What I was thinking=2C and didn't relate
it all=2C was that every time > >> I hear the Rotax guys=2C and I guess an
y of the water-cooled guys > >> talking about that expensive waterless stuf
f=2C and having to > >> relocate radiators=2C and where to place the thermo
stat=2C and > >> dealing with all the hoses=2C etc.=2C I just am thankful t
hat air- > >> cooled engines at least don't have to worry about leakage and
> >> all the other attendant problems that seem to come up so often.> >>>
>> Yes=2C air-cooled engines need their own touches to make them > >> perfe
ct=2C but the proper coolant and possible loss thereof isn't > >> one of th
em.> >> Yes=2C I've had problems with *my* engine=2C but not all the Jabs >
>> have had the gear problem. Just like not all the water-cooled > >> guys
have problems=2C not all the air-cooled engines break a timing > >> gear.>
>> Yes=2C the ignition system is a weak link=2C but I chose to replace > >
> mine rather than glue the rotors on=2C because I wanted something > >> di
fferent=2C and better=2C and more modern. I could have changed caps > >> an
d rotors every month for 10 years and not spend what I did for > >> my new
ignition=2C but I'm an experimenter and chose to spend the > >> money...ove
rkill? Yes. Necessary? No. Am I satisfied? Yes.> >>> >> If you didn't know
I had those engine problems...or if I hadn't > >> mentioned it...and simply
said "glad I chose an air-cooled > >> engine"=2C would that have been bett
er?I think probably it would > >> have=2C or better yet kept my comment and
thoughts on this subject > >> to myself.> >>> >> Lynn Matteson> >> Kitfox
IV Speedster=2C taildragger> >> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 600.2 hrs> >> Sense
nich 62x46> >> flying again after engine rebuild=2C and new Electroair dire
ct-fire > >> ignition system=3B> >> also building a new pair of snow skis>
>> do not archive> >>> >>> >>> >> On Jan 11=2C 2009=2C at 12:38 PM=2C Lowel
>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>> >>>> >>> Hey Lynn=2C Your comment blows my mind.
Are you suggestion that > >>> your catastrophic failure of that hat shaped
gear and your > >>> megabucks repair of that and your ignition mods to hel
p mitigate > >>> a weak design there as well somehow relates to deciding wh
ether > >>> or not to use evans coolant.> >>>> >>> Sorry if this comes alon
g as a bit strong=2C and please correct > >>> me if I misunderstood your me
aning.> >>>> >>> Lowell> >>> Do not archive> >>> ----- Original Message ---
-- From: "Lynn Matteson" > >>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>> >>> To: <kitfox-list@mat
ronics.com>> >>> Sent: Sunday=2C January 11=2C 2009 6:16 AM> >>> Subject: R
e: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat> >>>> >>>> >>>> --> Kitfox-List
message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>> >>>>> >>>> Not to star
t an engine war=2C but it is threads like this one > >>>> that make me smil
e about my choice of engine=2C even with all > >>>> the problems that I hav
e had with mine.> >>>>> >>>> Lynn Matteson> >>>> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C tai
ldragger> >>>> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 600.2 hrs> >>>> Sensenich 62x46> >>>
> flying again after engine rebuild=2C and new Electroair direct- > >>>> fi
re ignition system=3B> >>>> also building a new pair of snow skis> >>>> do
not archive> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> On Jan 10=2C 2009=2C at 8:39 PM=2C Lowe
" > >>>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>> >>>>>> >>>>> Paul=2C> >>>>>> >>>>> This h
as sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant. I think we > >>>>> sometimes
forget that there are many airplanes experimantal and > >>>>> certified tha
t use a version of the Rotax 912. I know from > >>>>> group flying experien
ce that the Rans S-7 has a cooling > >>>>> problem and often has to step cl
imb to avoid going into temps > >>>>> I have never seen on my Model IV. It
is my belief that the > >>>>> Evans coolant might be appropriate for that a
pplication as the > >>>>> temps are much higher than the boiling point of w
ater. For > >>>>> me=2C I was never tempted to use it. It is sort of like p
utting > >>>>> a cast on a perfectly good leg because my friend has one on
> >>>>> his leg.> >>>>>> >>>>> Lowell Fitt> >>>>> Cameron Park=2C CA> >>>>>
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL> >>>>> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing
the precover > >>>>> checklist=2C Rudder trim system - my rib warp design
=2C and > >>>>> Landing Gear - done.> >>>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -
---- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" > >>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>> >>>>> To:
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>> >>>>> Sent: Saturday=2C January 10=2C 2009 1:
29 PM> >>>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat> >>>>>> >
>>>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat=2C January 10=2C 2009 7:
estj0" > >>>>>>> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks Rick
=2C I would appreciate a photo and also information > >>>>>>> on the "water
less" that> >>>>>>> you are talking about.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> "In the 1980s in
ventor Jack Evans discovered the advantages > >>>>>> of using a waterless>
>>>>>> coolant. His final formulation is a mixture of ethylene > >>>>>> gly
col and propylene glycol.> >>>>>> This coolant has a high boiling point of
188 =B0C (370 =B0F) and > >>>>>> is not corrosive=2C solving> >>>>>> many o
f water's problems including freezing."> >>>>>>> >>>>>> <http://www.nationm
aster.com/encyclopedia/Antifreeze>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I got curious and did a
little research on this. Rick talked > >>>>>> about using NPG+ made by> >>>
>>> Evans Cooling. Here is their website.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> <http://www.evans
cooling.com/main1.htm>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I found nothing on their website tha
t was other than sales/ > >>>>>> marketing/folklore> >>>>>> presentation. T
here is no "white paper" or generally > >>>>>> accepted format for research
to> >>>>>> corroborate their claims.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Their product is call
ed "NPG+" which is a corrosion inhibited > >>>>>> propylene glycol> >>>>>>
ethylene glycol blend.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> It has a much higher temperature boi
ling point than an ideal > >>>>>> mix of inhibited ethylene> >>>>>> glycol
and water. However it is substantially more viscous > >>>>>> (especially at
low> >>>>>> temperatures)=2C has a lower heat capacity and offers less > >
>>>>> freeze protection.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> They make a claim that major engin
e manufacturers and > >>>>>> specifically Rotax require their> >>>>>> fluid
.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I looked through all the Rotax service bulletins and foun
d this:> >>>>>>> >>>>>> <http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d0
2398.pdf>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Well=2C from reading that=2C it sounds like it is
a little less > >>>>>> than mandatory. A higher> >>>>>> pressure cap seems
to be the emphasis and no where does it > >>>>>> actually say that NPG or>
>>>>>> NPG+ is required.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Evans summarizes the properties i
n a table at the bottom of > >>>>>> this page:> >>>>>>> >>>>>> <http://www.
evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I have done quite a bit of
research on failures of heat > >>>>>> transfer systems filled with> >>>>>>
food grade glycol (propylene) and inhibited ethylene glycol. > >>>>>> In f
act I spent an entire> >>>>>> year doing so. In large mixed metal systems t
he expected life > >>>>>> of propylene glycol as a> >>>>>> coolant is signi
ficantly less than ethylene glycol systems. > >>>>>> The biggest contributo
r to> >>>>>> failure is entrained air and high operating temperatures. The
> >>>>>> air oxidizes the glycol> >>>>>> forming fairly long molecular chai
n organic acids. The > >>>>>> inhibitors have capacity to> >>>>>> buffer th
e pH change to a limit. What you'll notice with > >>>>>> propylene glycol (
NPG and> >>>>>> NPG+) filled systems is steady and gradual discoloration of
> >>>>>> the coolant. It begins to> >>>>>> start turning brown soon after
installing and at some point > >>>>>> it can start to form a> >>>>>> corros
ive sludge that will plug heat exchangers. Of course in > >>>>>> a small en
gine=2C you> >>>>>> don't have to maintain inhibitors or worry about filter
ing=2C > >>>>>> you just drain=2C flush and> >>>>>> refill.> >>>>>>> >>>>>>
Because of the significantly lower heat capacity of pure > >>>>>> inhibite
d propylene glycol=2C> >>>>>> more flow is required. For some applications
this means using > >>>>>> a higher flow capacity> >>>>>> water pump and mor
e tubes in the radiator. The Evans people=2C > >>>>>> in fact=2C sell cooli
ng> >>>>>> system mods for engines they use in racing conditions because >
>>>>>> of this.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> So=2C if you are convinced this is somethin
g you want to use=2C > >>>>>> you will need to change> >>>>>> out the fluid
more often and use twice as much than if you > >>>>>> use 50-50 mix of wat
er and> >>>>>> inhibited ethylene glycol and you will not have the freeze >
>>>>>> protection and the NPG or> >>>>>> NPG+ should not be operated much
below 40=B0F which is > >>>>>> problematic in aircraft where the> >>>>>> am
bient air temperature is often colder than this.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I think us
ing a higher pressure cap and the heavy duty > >>>>>> (extended life) rated
for mixed> >>>>>> metals type of inhibited ethylene glycol which is color
> >>>>>> coded orange in the US and is> >>>>>> the recommended fluid by For
d=2C GM=2C Chrysler=2C Caterpillar and > >>>>>> Cummins is my preference> >
>>>>> and I will use in my Rotax 914.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> The extended life coo
lants use an entirely different corrosion > >>>>>> inhibiting chemistry> >>
>>>> that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates=2C > >>>>
>> phosphates or borates.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Here's a brief overview of engine
coolants:> >>>>>>> >>>>>> <http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant.htm>> >>>
>>>> >>>>>> I am neither endorsing nor discouraging the use of Evans' > >>>
>>> waterless coolant.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Paul A. Franz> >>>>>> Re
gistration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT> >>>>>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI C
AP> >>>>>> Bellevue WA> >>>>>> 425.241.1618 Cell> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >
======> > >
Message 41
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Need Model IV interior |
Lowell,
You said "former". Is Don no longer on the list? Did he sell "Fat
Alberta"? I was hoping he would change his mind. Larry Huntley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need Model IV interior
>
> Paul,
>
> This is on list because others might benefit. This was some time ago but
> one of our list members - since on to other endeavors - used chair covers
> he
> found at Walmart? Actually I don't recall exactly where he got them, but
> after his report, several others got them there and the talk was that they
> fit exactly. I suspect this info can be found in the archives. The
> former
> lister is Don Smythe.
>
> Lowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Morel" <pmorel@bellsouth.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 3:35 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Need Model IV interior
>
>
> It's me again asking if someone in Kitfox land has an old interior that
> will
> fit in a Model IV that I can buy. If I come up empty handed, I'll be
> calling John to order a new one. My wife wanted me to try the list first
> and get a used one cheaper and she obviously doesn't seem to care what
> color
> it is. I'm hoping someone out there might have changed out some seats at
> some time or another. Please email me off list at pmorel@bellsouth.net
>
> I want to thank Ron Smith for coming to my aid with a glairshield and
> Norm
> Vrooman with a seatpan. This truly is great fraternity of Kitfox
> enthusiasts that help each other get our planes in the air and help keep
> them there!
>
> Paul Morel
> 912 Model IV Speedster
> Locust Grove, GA
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
5:57 PM
Message 42
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
For what it's worth and from someone who went through it last year, I would
suggest that all Log Book entries be made with the thought of just who you
would want to read them. These are legal documents and if there is ever an
incident or accident, these will be surrendered to the FAA for their
inpection - no warrant required.
In my personal case, all engine and airframe info was logged in the book.
Personal flight data was logged in a trip form I made up (four to a page,
both sides - eight days from the first take off of the day wherever that
was) and kept in a binder. Periodically, all pertinent hours, and landings
were transferred to my pilot's log in bulk form. When the FAA came calling,
I gave him the two log books and everyone was satisfied. I still have all
the personal data, T/Os and landings, fuel, landing sites, persons on
board, observation notes and stuff in a very personal file. I don't mean to
imply that I flew without regard to the regs, but I just think some of the
observarions and comments were logged for my benefit alone.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
>
> I record all the landings....assuming I made a take-off to get to that
> point...and hours and tenths, plus where I went, amount of fuel installed
> in plane and miles flown.
> If something eventful happens, I note that too...like taking off up
> through fog (known thickness) during one brain fart incident: Note to
> self: "Don't ever do this again."
> I since then bought an artificial horizon, so I may not have learned my
> lesson. : )
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> ignition system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 5:52 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:
>
>> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>>
>
>> My DAR was surprised to see my airframe logbook contained the number of
>> take-offs and landings per entry as well as the hours flown, and the
>> engine
>> logbook has a running count of starts and stops. Apparently you yanks
>> don't
>> record those details?
>>
>> bob
>
>
>
Message 43
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Need Model IV interior |
I bought a set. They were J C Penney rocking chair pads. Still have
them. Using as pads in the RV-9A construction (lying in the tunnel
riviting).
David Estapa
Woodstock, GA
N97DE 912ULS
On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:24:03 -0800 "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
writes:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Paul,
>
> This is on list because others might benefit. This was some time
> ago but
> one of our list members - since on to other endeavors - used chair
> covers he
> found at Walmart? Actually I don't recall exactly where he got
> them, but
> after his report, several others got them there and the talk was
> that they
> fit exactly. I suspect this info can be found in the archives. The
> former
> lister is Don Smythe.
>
____________________________________________________________
Low rate Platinum Credit Cards. Compare and Save. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1ewvHTrA865jPxupjdTrme60Oc0nw9IqocrYszqyN8tC6pd/
Message 44
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Need Model IV interior |
Yes, Fat Alberta is gone. Don might lurk, but I don't know for sure. It
is our loss. He is busy managing the estate.
Lowell
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Huntley" <asq@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need Model IV interior
>
> Lowell,
> You said "former". Is Don no longer on the list? Did he sell "Fat
> Alberta"? I was hoping he would change his mind. Larry Huntley
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 9:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need Model IV interior
>
>
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> This is on list because others might benefit. This was some time ago but
>> one of our list members - since on to other endeavors - used chair covers
>> he
>> found at Walmart? Actually I don't recall exactly where he got them, but
>> after his report, several others got them there and the talk was that
>> they
>> fit exactly. I suspect this info can be found in the archives. The
>> former
>> lister is Don Smythe.
>>
>> Lowell
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Paul Morel" <pmorel@bellsouth.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 3:35 PM
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Need Model IV interior
>>
>>
>> It's me again asking if someone in Kitfox land has an old interior that
>> will
>> fit in a Model IV that I can buy. If I come up empty handed, I'll be
>> calling John to order a new one. My wife wanted me to try the list first
>> and get a used one cheaper and she obviously doesn't seem to care what
>> color
>> it is. I'm hoping someone out there might have changed out some seats at
>> some time or another. Please email me off list at
>> pmorel@bellsouth.net
>>
>> I want to thank Ron Smith for coming to my aid with a glairshield and
>> Norm
>> Vrooman with a seatpan. This truly is great fraternity of Kitfox
>> enthusiasts that help each other get our planes in the air and help keep
>> them there!
>>
>> Paul Morel
>> 912 Model IV Speedster
>> Locust Grove, GA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 5:57 PM
>
>
>
Message 45
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
Except for boats, liquid cooled engines are also air cooled at the end,
best of two worlds?
air or liquid cooled, if it is not don right it isn't! and have to be
re-don.
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Bazzill
To: Kitfox list
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 3:38 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
Gee, I guess that its my turn now. Not too many air cooled cars left
on road, wonder why. If I had known about all of these problems with
liquid cooled engines, wouldn't have sold my bug. Takes a long time to
read these comments about engines. If you like it or not, Rotax is
engine of choice for darn good reasons. I am sure the 912ULS will out
perform the Jab 3300 with not as much fuel burn.
Clint with a lot of hours in those dreaded liquid cooled engines.
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:11:29 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> I've done some more thinking too, Lowell, and it would have better
if
> I had just posted the following: air-cooling versus liquid-
> cooling...which is less troublesome? Both camps have their plusses
> and minuses, but after reading Paul's post regarding Evans Coolant,
> and then thinking about all the air burping and pressure cap talk,
> water pump flow, location of radiator in or out of the airstream,
> people having to make up special nipples for heater hose
connections,
> and I can't begin to remember all the other posts I've read
regarding
> liquid cooling, it just *seems* like there is less talk over on the
> Jabiru site regarding cooling issues. Because I don't search out all
> the other engine groups, I'm basing my comments on the Matronics
> Kitfox list, and the Yahoo Jab group and the Matronics Jabiru-Engine
> (almost non-existent) list. Granted, Jabiru had early cooling
> problems and solved them by increasing the number of head fins and
> fin area. Most of the rest of their cooling can be dealt with by the
> strategic placement of baffles, or by establishing the proper cowl
> inlet and outlet area and shape. I wasn't into aircraft when Rotax
> began using their engines in airplanes, so I don't know their
> history, but it *seems* like Jabiru has built an engine, perhaps
> stopping a bit short of engineering it all the way, then marketed it
> before it was ready to be marketed, relying on the customer to do
> their test program for them. I say this based on my findings with my
> engine....others may not have the hours that I've put on mine, so
> haven't got to the point in their engine's life that mine has gotten
> to. But as I've said before, I may have the fruit of the lemon tree,
> but it's my lemon and I'm trying to sweeten it as best I can......OH
> MAN!, is that poetic or what??????
>
> But I
> digress................................again................... : )
>
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> ignition system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 3:40 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>
> > <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > Lynn,
> >
> > I understand and after sending off the post I did a bit of
Googling
> > around (Jabiru Cooling) and found a very interesting quote among
> > many others folks will have to find for themselves.
> >
> > The quote reads: "My grandpa was a pretty smart fellow. One
> > thing he used to say is, "If we all wanted the same things, we'd
> > all be chasing Grandma.""
> >
> > Lowell
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson"
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 11:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
> >
> >
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >>
> >> What I was thinking, and didn't relate it all, was that every
time
> >> I hear the Rotax guys, and I guess any of the water-cooled guys
> >> talking about that expensive waterless stuff, and having to
> >> relocate radiators, and where to place the thermostat, and
> >> dealing with all the hoses, etc., I just am thankful that air-
> >> cooled engines at least don't have to worry about leakage and
> >> all the other attendant problems that seem to come up so often.
> >>
> >> Yes, air-cooled engines need their own touches to make them
> >> perfect, but the proper coolant and possible loss thereof isn't
> >> one of them.
> >> Yes, I've had problems with *my* engine, but not all the Jabs
> >> have had the gear problem. Just like not all the water-cooled
> >> guys have problems, not all the air-cooled engines break a timing
> >> gear.
> >> Yes, the ignition system is a weak link, but I chose to replace
> >> mine rather than glue the rotors on, because I wanted something
> >> different, and better, and more modern. I could have changed caps
> >> and rotors every month for 10 years and not spend what I did for
> >> my new ignition, but I'm an experimenter and chose to spend the
> >> money...overkill? Yes. Necessary? No. Am I satisfied? Yes.
> >>
> >> If you didn't know I had those engine problems...or if I hadn't
> >> mentioned it...and simply said "glad I chose an air-cooled
> >> engine", would that have been better?I think probably it would
> >> have, or better yet kept my comment and thoughts on this subject
> >> to myself.
> >>
> >> Lynn Matteson
> >> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> >> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> >> Sensenich 62x46
> >> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> >> ignition system;
> >> also building a new pair of snow skis
> >> do not archive
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 11, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> >>
> >>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> >>>
> >>> Hey Lynn, Your comment blows my mind. Are you suggestion that
> >>> your catastrophic failure of that hat shaped gear and your
> >>> megabucks repair of that and your ignition mods to help mitigate
> >>> a weak design there as well somehow relates to deciding whether
> >>> or not to use evans coolant.
> >>>
> >>> Sorry if this comes along as a bit strong, and please correct
> >>> me if I misunderstood your meaning.
> >>>
> >>> Lowell
> >>> Do not archive
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson"
> >>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 6:16 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
> >>>
> >>>
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >>>>
> >>>> Not to start an engine war, but it is threads like this one
> >>>> that make me smile about my choice of engine, even with all
> >>>> the problems that I have had with mine.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lynn Matteson
> >>>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> >>>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> >>>> Sensenich 62x46
> >>>> flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-
> >>>> fire ignition system;
> >>>> also building a new pair of snow skis
> >>>> do not archive
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Paul,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This has sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant. I think we
> >>>>> sometimes forget that there are many airplanes experimantal
and
> >>>>> certified that use a version of the Rotax 912. I know from
> >>>>> group flying experience that the Rans S-7 has a cooling
> >>>>> problem and often has to step climb to avoid going into temps
> >>>>> I have never seen on my Model IV. It is my belief that the
> >>>>> Evans coolant might be appropriate for that application as the
> >>>>> temps are much higher than the boiling point of water. For
> >>>>> me, I was never tempted to use it. It is sort of like putting
> >>>>> a cast on a perfectly good leg because my friend has one on
> >>>>> his leg.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lowell Fitt
> >>>>> Cameron Park, CA
> >>>>> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
> >>>>> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing the precover
> >>>>> checklist, Rudder trim system - my rib warp design, and
> >>>>> Landing Gear - done.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"
> >>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
> >>>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:29 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, January 10, 2009 7:42 am, earnestj0 wrote:
> >>>>>>> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks Rick, I would appreciate a photo and also information
> >>>>>>> on the "waterless" that
> >>>>>>> you are talking about.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "In the 1980s inventor Jack Evans discovered the advantages
> >>>>>> of using a waterless
> >>>>>> coolant. His final formulation is a mixture of ethylene
> >>>>>> glycol and propylene glycol.
> >>>>>> This coolant has a high boiling point of 188 =B0C (370 =B0F)
and
> >>>>>> is not corrosive, solving
> >>>>>> many of water's problems including freezing."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Antifreeze>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I got curious and did a little research on this. Rick talked
> >>>>>> about using NPG+ made by
> >>>>>> Evans Cooling. Here is their website.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/main1.htm>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I found nothing on their website that was other than sales/
> >>>>>> marketing/folklore
> >>>>>> presentation. There is no "white paper" or generally
> >>>>>> accepted format for research to
> >>>>>> corroborate their claims.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Their product is called "NPG+" which is a corrosion inhibited
> >>>>>> propylene glycol
> >>>>>> ethylene glycol blend.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It has a much higher temperature boiling point than an ideal
> >>>>>> mix of inhibited ethylene
> >>>>>> glycol and water. However it is substantially more viscous
> >>>>>> (especially at low
> >>>>>> temperatures), has a lower heat capacity and offers less
> >>>>>> freeze protection.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They make a claim that major engine manufacturers and
> >>>>>> specifically Rotax require their
> >>>>>> fluid.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I looked through all the Rotax service bulletins and found
this:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d02398.pdf>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Well, from reading that, it sounds like it is a little less
> >>>>>> than mandatory. A higher
> >>>>>> pressure cap seems to be the emphasis and no where does it
> >>>>>> actually say that NPG or
> >>>>>> NPG+ is required.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Evans summarizes the properties in a table at the bottom of
> >>>>>> this page:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have done quite a bit of research on failures of heat
> >>>>>> transfer systems filled with
> >>>>>> food grade glycol (propylene) and inhibited ethylene glycol.
> >>>>>> In fact I spent an entire
> >>>>>> year doing so. In large mixed metal systems the expected life
> >>>>>> of propylene glycol as a
> >>>>>> coolant is significantly less than ethylene glycol systems.
> >>>>>> The biggest contributor to
> >>>>>> failure is entrained air and high operating temperatures. The
> >>>>>> air oxidizes the glycol
> >>>>>> forming fairly long molecular chain organic acids. The
> >>>>>> inhibitors have capacity to
> >>>>>> buffer the pH change to a limit. What you'll notice with
> >>>>>> propylene glycol (NPG and
> >>>>>> NPG+) filled systems is steady and gradual discoloration of
> >>>>>> the coolant. It begins to
> >>>>>> start turning brown soon after installing and at some point
> >>>>>> it can start to form a
> >>>>>> corrosive sludge that will plug heat exchangers. Of course in
> >>>>>> a small engine, you
> >>>>>> don't have to maintain inhibitors or worry about filtering,
> >>>>>> you just drain, flush and
> >>>>>> refill.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Because of the significantly lower heat capacity of pure
> >>>>>> inhibited propylene glycol,
> >>>>>> more flow is required. For some applications this means using
> >>>>>> a higher flow capacity
> >>>>>> water pump and more tubes in the radiator. The Evans people,
> >>>>>> in fact, sell cooling
> >>>>>> system mods for engines they use in racing conditions because
> >>>>>> of this.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, if you are convinced this is something you want to use,
> >>>>>> you will need to change
> >>>>>> out the fluid more often and use twice as much than if you
> >>>>>> use 50-50 mix of water and
> >>>>>> inhibited ethylene glycol and you will not have the freeze
> >>>>>> protection and the NPG or
> >>>>>> NPG+ should not be operated much below 40=B0F which is
> >>>>>> problematic in aircraft where the
> >>>>>> ambient air temperature is often colder than this.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think using a higher pressure cap and the heavy duty
> >>>>>> (extended life) rated for mixed
> >>>>>> metals type of inhibited ethylene glycol which is color
> >>>>>> coded orange in the US and is
> >>>>>> the recommended fluid by Ford, GM, Chrysler, Caterpillar and
> >>>>>> Cummins is my preference
> >>>>>> and I will use in my Rotax 914.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The extended life coolants use an entirely different
corrosion
> >>>>>> inhibiting chemistry
> >>>>>> that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates,
> >>>>>> phosphates or borates.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Here's a brief overview of engine coolants:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant.htm>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I am neither endorsing nor discouraging the use of Evans'
> >>>>>> waterless coolant.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Paul A. Franz
> >>>>>> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> >>>>>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> >>>>>> Bellevue WA
> >>>>>> 425.241.1618 Cell
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>==
>
>
>
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 3757 (20090111) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|