Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:11 AM - Re: Tail wheel (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
2. 02:34 AM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
3. 02:35 AM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
4. 04:36 AM - Re:disassemble c-box question (Southern Skies)
5. 05:13 AM - Re: Tail wheel (fox5flyer)
6. 07:20 AM - Re: Tail wheel (Dennis Golden)
7. 07:38 AM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
8. 07:41 AM - Denny Aircraft (Dee Young)
9. 07:49 AM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
10. 07:54 AM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
11. 08:02 AM - Re: Denny Aircraft (Bob Brennan)
12. 08:17 AM - Re: Denny Aircraft (Bob Brennan)
13. 08:30 AM - Re: Tail wheel (fox5flyer)
14. 08:31 AM - Re: Tail wheel (fox5flyer)
15. 08:48 AM - Re: Denny Aircraft (Dee Young)
16. 08:53 AM - Re: disassemble c-box question (akflyer)
17. 09:11 AM - Re: Tail wheel (John W. Hart)
18. 09:20 AM - Re: Pictures and stories of Kitfox aircraft being put to use (lowflyer)
19. 11:29 AM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
20. 01:24 PM - Re: Tail wheel (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
21. 01:43 PM - Re: Landing gear in correct position??? (jdmcbean)
22. 01:48 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Noel Loveys)
23. 02:19 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
24. 02:36 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Guy Buchanan)
25. 02:36 PM - Re: Landing gear in correct position??? (Guy Buchanan)
26. 02:58 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Noel Loveys)
27. 02:59 PM - Re: Tail wheel (akflyer)
28. 03:03 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Guy Buchanan)
29. 03:03 PM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (Guy Buchanan)
30. 03:12 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
31. 03:36 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
32. 03:53 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Noel Loveys)
33. 04:04 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
34. 04:14 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
35. 04:17 PM - Re: First Flight - Brazilian Kitfox with O-200 (Marco Menezes)
36. 04:18 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Frank Miles)
37. 04:20 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
38. 04:33 PM - Re: Tail wheel (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
39. 04:35 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
40. 04:46 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Bob Brennan)
41. 04:46 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Frank Miles)
42. 04:51 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Daniel Wild)
43. 04:58 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Guy Buchanan)
44. 04:59 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
45. 05:00 PM - Re: Tail wheel (akflyer)
46. 05:03 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Noel Loveys)
47. 05:06 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
48. 05:18 PM - Re: Tail wheel (fox5flyer)
49. 05:29 PM - Re: Lovely tailwheel (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
50. 05:34 PM - Re: Tail wheel (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
51. 05:42 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
52. 05:51 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Noel Loveys)
53. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Lovely tailwheel (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
54. 06:03 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Brian Morissette)
55. 06:09 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Bob Brennan)
56. 06:12 PM - Lynn's skis, trip to Oshkosh (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
57. 06:22 PM - Re: Tailwheel chain (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
58. 06:28 PM - Re: Tail wheel (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
59. 06:30 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Lynn Matteson)
60. 06:41 PM - Re: disassemble c-box question (jridgway)
61. 06:41 PM - Re: Lynn's skis, trip to Oshkosh (Lynn Matteson)
62. 06:59 PM - Re: Re: Tailwheel chain (Noel Loveys)
63. 07:07 PM - Re: Tail wheel (Noel Loveys)
64. 07:17 PM - Re: Lynn's skis, trip to Oshkosh (Noel Loveys)
65. 07:32 PM - Re: Lovely tailwheel (akflyer)
66. 07:38 PM - Re: Lynn's skis, trip to Oshkosh (akflyer)
67. 08:00 PM - Re: Re: Tailwheel chain (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
68. 08:17 PM - Re: Re: Lovely tailwheel (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
Message 1
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On Sun, January 18, 2009 10:36 pm, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
> Well while you're contemplating your navel here some photos and details of
> the adaptor bracket:
Gary - nice design, nice drawing, great photos and the craftsmanship is superb.
You
obviously have access to tools. Maybe you packed them in with your plane in the
big
trans-ocean crate.
How about a side elevation shot of with the tail wheel loaded? I suppose you have
to
wait for the paint to dry. :))
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 2
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A self-effacing engineer from a model airplane email list used that
as part of his signature way back in another life.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 1:37 AM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Jeez - I've never heard that one before...............................
>
> I'll send you the torque settings tomorrow.
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 19/01/2009 04:43 PM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
>
>
> Please, just one more: "You can always tell an engineer....but you
> can't tell him much."
>
> What IS the torque setting?....I just do mine by hand until it feels
> right....seat-of-the-pants engineering as it were (or shade-tree
> mechanics, to be more to the point)
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 12:46 AM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Yes Lynn - in fact they actually gave me a toque setting for the
> > bolt. I'm glad you reminded me though as I probably would have put
> > the adaptor on and then tensioned it right up.
> >
> > And enough jokes about engineers - Ha
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > Gary Algate
> > SMC, Exploration
> > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
> >
> >
> > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> > this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> > This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> > and happy Christmas".
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > 19/01/2009 03:37 PM
> > Please respond to
> > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> > To
> > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > cc
> > Subject
> > Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > One other thing to remember, Gary....I'm sure your new spring setup
> > has one of the two main leaves with a larger hole on the tailwheel
> > ass'y end, does it not? Make sure that you don't tighten that
> > retaining bolt rock solid, but allow it a *tiny* bit of less-than
> > tight torque, so that the springs can flex, and thus gain and lose
> > comparative length....you know this as an engineer, right? (Not that
> > I'm holding that against you) : )
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > New skis done and flying
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 19, 2009, at 12:05 AM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Gary Algate
> > > SMC, Exploration
> > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
> > >
> > >
> > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in
> error,
> > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> > > This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the
> mail, we
> > > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> > > and happy Christmas".
> > >
> > >
> > > I can't disagree with your reasoning. If yours works then that's
> > > all that matters.
> > >
> > > I have the adaptor in my hand and hope to get out to the plane
> this
> > > evening to make the mods - I'll report back.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Gary
> > > Classic 4 Jab 2200
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > > 19/01/2009 02:57 PM
> > > Please respond to
> > > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > >
> > > To
> > > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > > cc
> > > Subject
> > > Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe the newer spring angle is doing something to the spring,
> lock-
> > > pin,steering arm interface, I don't know. Obviously something has
> > > changed, and the spring angle is the only thing different, so
> you're
> > > doing what you have to do to change that. Because of the lack of a
> > > bend-back angle to the spring, your tail must be sitting
> higher, and
> > > this could lead to some differences in the plane's behavior.
> > >
> > > Lynn Matteson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> > > ==================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> > ==================================
>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 3
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Great-looking, Gary....got it on yet?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 1:36 AM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Well while you're contemplating your navel here some photos and
> details of the adaptor bracket:
>
> regards
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re:disassemble c-box question |
Jerry-
There is a bolt inside one of the gears that you have to remove first before it
will come apart. To get access to the bolt you take the front cover off. It is
an allen bolt, I want to say 6 or 8 mm not sure on this. This bolts holds the
smaller gear onto the shaft. Once you remove the bolt you can slide the gear
off and seperate the rear of the gearbox.
Hope this helps.
Chris Bowles
KF 5
Time: 06:17:56 PM PST US
From: jerry evans <kitfox555@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: disassemble c-box question
I needed to disassemble the c-box on my 582 to change the seal in the back.
I got all the bolts out, took a piece of wood and a hammer. taped on the o
uter case and it only come about 3/8 ' open and will not come off . Has any
one had this happen to them-- Box has about 70 hrs on it- everyone I
have asked said it is suppose to just come right off- what can be holding
it up? IS there a trick to it?- It works fine, just leak small drops out
the back by the donut. (Don't like oil leaks) thanks for any input
Jerry Evans
KitfoxII
Magalia Calif.
N582'er'
kitfox 555
Message 5
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Good write up, Lowell. Having had several Maule tail wheels on different
aircraft I've had my share of the shimmy problems also, both with the hard
tire and pneumatic. Somewhere I read a long time ago that there are only
two things you can do to keep the Maule from doing it's
shimmy-shimmy-shake-shake, and that is to keep the king pin vertical and to
have absolutely no slop in the mechanics anywhere. The first part is easy,
but the second is the toughest because IMO the Maule is a bad design from
the start. Sure, if you get everything perfect with it, it may not shimmy,
but most of them still do.
Currently I have a Maule Tundra which is a larger and a little heavier
unit with pneumatic tire (I needed the extra tail weight). It has a large
nut on the top with friction washers under it and Maule's answer to minimize
shimmy was to tighten the washer down until the shimmy stopped. Sheesh!
Great engineering. Curiously, my old Model 2 with the hard tire didn't
shimmy. I think it was something about the alignment of the planets when I
installed it.
Just wondering. Do the "Home Builders Special" units shimmy? I haven't
heard any mention of them. How about the Scott 3200?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
> Not wanting to beat a dead horse, but maybe Maule needed the antishimmy
> springs because of the angle they recommended for the pivot axis.
>
> I made three drawings that illustrates the concept. The drawings are not
> to scale but give relative dimensions. Drawing one is the tailwheel in
> the
> Matteson configuration. Notice the distance between the pivot axis and
> the
> contact point - wheel to ground. In this illustration it is 1.54 inches.
> The second drawing shows the axis vertical, which I suspect would be ideal
> in an unreal world. In this instance the distance between pivot axis and
> ground contact is 1.35 inches. The third illustration is in the Maule
> configuration and check the distance there. Now no one will ever convince
> me that the third configuration will be most resistant to shimmy or best
> tracking. In fact the more the angle is changed toward that direction,
> the
> less the distance will be and tracking will be poorer and shimmy will
> become
> predictable and inevitable.
>
> The critical concept here is not the pivot angle vs the vertical, but
> rather
> the geometry of the wheel design and the pivot angle which determines the
> distance between the point the wheel contacts the ground and the pivot
> axis.
> And the real issue is not the axis at rest, but the angle of the axis
> under
> varying loads as suspended from the end of a spring, the angle is always
> changing resulting in changes in the tracking distance between the ground
> contact point and the pivot axis. Moving the axis more to the Matteson
> angle at rest will most likely never exceed a vertical angle under load.
> Going to the Maule angle on the other hand will decrease the distance
> under
> load and could come close to zero - completely unstable.
>
> P.S. I had a shimmy problem early with my first Model IV. I corrected it
> with a tapered shim between the spring and the wheel mount that
> effectively
> increased the distance between wheel contact and pivot axis.
>
> Lowell
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
>
>>
>> yup (to the lock wire running up the center), I did that for a while,
>> then just went "brave" (read stupid) the last time I had the thing off a
>> year and a half ago.
>>
>> The unbalanced spring thing is the basis of the Maule anti-shimmy set-
>> up.
>> Mine doesn't shimmy as is, however.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> New skis done and flying
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The point I noticed most was his insistence on using unbalanced springs
>>> on
>>> the tailwheel. I guess that will also help keep shimmy down.
>>> Speaking of which I guess there is no law against running a piece of
>>> lock
>>> wire up through the spring like is done on the exhaust systems. That
>>> would
>>> be safe too.
>>>
>>> Noel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 6
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Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> That article might be using a different Maule tailwheel assy than the
> one I have or that you have....but remember, that article shows a
> drawing, not a picture of the actual part. Drawing a picture takes
> time...why would the author not just shoot a picture if he had all the
> parts right there to do all the other pictures in the article?This
> question leads me to view with some "suspicion" the whole article.
Ever stop to consider the possible shortage of digital cameras and image
software when the article was written?
Regards,
Dennis Model IV Speedster (someday)
--
Dennis Golden
Golden Consulting Services, Inc.
Message 7
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Hey, I just thought of something....all you shimmy-shimmy, shake-
shake (thanks Deke, I like that) guys...are you all using the stock,
narrow and tall bungee-style landing gear? The "Matteson
Geometry" (patent pending) uses the Maule tailwheel assembly with
aftermarket Aircraft Spruce Homebuilders Special Tailwheel
replacement wheel, the Grove main gear, and a rookie pilot....maybe
it's the total package that is what makes mine shimmy-free.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 18, 2009, at 1:36 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I love these discussions - lots of theory vs. what works.
>
> Next time we have someone post a question on how to eliminate tail
> wheel shimmy, the consensus will be to go to the Mateson geometry
> to correct the problem. Talking about shopping cart shimmy, check
> the offending castor next time you get one. One sure way it will
> happen is if the nut holding the pivot is loose or the bearings are
> shot, allowing the castor to go the way of Maule. Or if it hit a
> curb and bent the structure to allow the Maule geometry.
>
> Of course the other way to stop tail wheel shimmy is to use forward
> stick on roll out taking weight off the wheel which will reduce the
> Maule geonetry and increase the Matteson geometry.
>
> I guess it depends on what you want in a tailwheel - forward
> tracking or absense of shimmy. For me personally, I'd toss the
> Maule instructions and just copy Lynns photo and put it in my book
> - minus the third leaf, of course.
>
> Lowell Fitt
> Cameron Park, CA
> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
> Just about ready to cover fuselage and left wing.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E."
> <paul@eucleides.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
>
>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, January 18, 2009 3:50 am, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>>> That picture was taken with load on it, Paul. At least with the full
>>> weight of the plane on it, but no pilot or passenger, and probably
>>> close to full tanks (26 gallons) (I know I report a low-fuel warning
>>> light frequently, but that's another issue : ) )
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what you mean by "slightly angled in the wrong
>>> direction? This is the way it sits, and flies, and has flown and
>>> landed for two years, 600 hrs, and over 1300 landings...what could
>>> possibly be wrong?
>>
>> Might be an optical illusion in your photo. But it looks like the
>> axis of turning
>> rotation (through the kingpin) is slightly forward at the bottom.
>> I surmised that it
>> is probably closer to vertical or slightly trailing when you're in
>> the plane.
>>
>>> Without looking TOO hard for them the only "safety springs" I found
>>> were the Maule anti-shimmy springs (pictured) that I mentioned a few
>>> posts ago, that did not allow me to turn (easily) to the left. I
>>> mentioned that at the time I tried these springs was at a time
>>> before
>>> I had any tailwheel training, so I was maybe not as positive about
>>> what should be going on when I taxied the plane. When I bought these
>>> springs, I bought them for the "safety" feature, not necessarily the
>>> anti-shimmy feature. Subsequently, I learned (correctly, I believe)
>>> that the safety issue is overemphasized in that if a (control)
>>> spring
>>> breaks, it's no big deal, as the tailwheel will caster if set up
>>> correctly...and mine is....and will follow the plane. There are some
>>> pilots that do not even have tailwheel control, preferring to allow
>>> the tailwheel to follow with NO attachment to the rudder or any
>>> other
>>> control device...none....think tail skid.
>>
>> The safety springs won't fall apart dangling the chains if they
>> break. I have
>> symmetric ones. I think they are readily available at hardware
>> stores like Home Depot
>> and Lowes.
>>
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>>
>> I just can't be certain of the king pin angle from the photo.
>> Obviously your setup is
>> working so it must operate close enough to vertical or slightly
>> trailing. I also
>> notice you have a real steep tail spring angle. That would make it
>> extend just
>> slightly when rolling too and means you have lower bending loads
>> on your tail wheel
>> springs and the 1300 landings without it breaking is testimony to
>> this.
>>
>> I think copying your working setup is a good idea.
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Franz, P.E.
>> PAF Consulting Engineers
>> Office 425.440.9505
>> Cell 425.241.1618
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 8
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I acquired a video tape titled "Denny Aero Craft Company". The
description on the tape "The ultimate STOL folding wing, towable,
backyard, recreational fun-flying aircraft".
Denny Aerocraft Co. 100 N. Kings Rd.
Nampa, Id 83687 (208)466-1711
This was a demonstration tape that came with my Model II kit.
If someone would like this to add to a collection of memorabilia. I
would be glad to donate this if they will pay the shipping. Just drop me
a not off list.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
KFM 112
Do not archive
Message 9
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I sure did, Dennis, and the fact that he fills the article with
photos that have part names and numbers that have been
inserted...digitally, I presume....after "the fact" makes me say what
I did. Did you look at the article in question? I think it you had
you'd have the same question that I did....why not a pictorial side
view of the assembly instead of a drawing? He's got a rear-view of
the assembly, complete with a vertical reference line, a line showing
"undesirable tailwheel offset," etc, why....well, you get my drift.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 19, 2009, at 10:19 AM, Dennis Golden wrote:
> consulting.com>
>
> Lynn Matteson wrote:
>>
>> That article might be using a different Maule tailwheel assy than the
>> one I have or that you have....but remember, that article shows a
>> drawing, not a picture of the actual part. Drawing a picture takes
>> time...why would the author not just shoot a picture if he had all
>> the
>> parts right there to do all the other pictures in the article?This
>> question leads me to view with some "suspicion" the whole article.
>
> Ever stop to consider the possible shortage of digital cameras and
> image
> software when the article was written?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dennis Model IV Speedster (someday)
> --
> Dennis Golden
> Golden Consulting Services, Inc.
>
>
Message 10
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At $1000 + a pop, that sum'itch BETTER not shimmy! ...the Scott, that
is....
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:12 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
> Just wondering. Do the "Home Builders Special" units shimmy? I
> haven't heard any mention of them. How about the Scott 3200?
>
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
> progress."
> - Joseph Joubert
>
>
Message 11
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Hey Dee - how about donating it to someone who has a combo VHS/DVD recorder
and can make DVD copies for anyone who wants it? Like me.... I don't mind
doing it for the group.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dee Young
Sent: 19 January 2009 10:41 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Denny Aircraft
I acquired a video tape titled "Denny Aero Craft Company". The description
on the tape "The ultimate STOL folding wing, towable, backyard, recreational
fun-flying aircraft".
Denny Aerocraft Co. 100 N. Kings Rd.
Nampa, Id 83687 (208)466-1711
This was a demonstration tape that came with my Model II kit.
If someone would like this to add to a collection of memorabilia. I would
be glad to donate this if they will pay the shipping. Just drop me a not off
list.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
KFM 112
Do not archive
Message 12
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OOOps! Copyright...
That would be with the McBean's permission of course, assuming they now own
the rights to any Denney material like that. Or perhaps the McBeans can
offer copies for sale themselves?
too-quick-on-the-reply bob
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: 19 January 2009 11:00 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Denny Aircraft
Hey Dee - how about donating it to someone who has a combo VHS/DVD recorder
and can make DVD copies for anyone who wants it? Like me.... I don't mind
doing it for the group.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dee Young
Sent: 19 January 2009 10:41 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Denny Aircraft
I acquired a video tape titled "Denny Aero Craft Company". The description
on the tape "The ultimate STOL folding wing, towable, backyard, recreational
fun-flying aircraft".
Denny Aerocraft Co. 100 N. Kings Rd.
Nampa, Id 83687 (208)466-1711
This was a demonstration tape that came with my Model II kit.
If someone would like this to add to a collection of memorabilia. I would
be glad to donate this if they will pay the shipping. Just drop me a not off
list.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
KFM 112
Do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 13
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Now, you might be on to something here, my good friend Herr Matteson.
Perhaps the wheel/tire itself has something to do with it, but somehow I
doubt it. More than likely it is the mechanicals of the Maule design that
make it finicky. If you've ever had one apart, you would see that they
aren't exactly a precision instrument.
I once had a Piper Vagabond PA17 with the Maule hard tire tail wheel. That
thing shimmied and shook so bad that I thought it would tear the back end of
the airplane apart. Of course, it didn't do it on the grass strip where I
bought it. It wasn't until later that I landed on a paved strip that it
reared it's ugly head. A quick look told me what the problem was. The
tailwheel spring, probably the original and 50+ years old, had lost most of
it's arc and the kingpin was tilted way back which made the thing work like
a worn out shopping cart. A $40 replacement spring assembly purchased from
Wicks solved the problem immediately. No more shimmy-shimmy-shake-shake!
It amazes me that we have so few choices for a decent tailwheel out there.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
...Lynn scrawled:
> Hey, I just thought of something....all you shimmy-shimmy, shake- shake
> (thanks Deke, I like that) guys...are you all using the stock, narrow and
> tall bungee-style landing gear? The "Matteson Geometry" (patent pending)
> uses the Maule tailwheel assembly with aftermarket Aircraft Spruce
> Homebuilders Special Tailwheel replacement wheel, the Grove main gear,
> and a rookie pilot....maybe it's the total package that is what makes
> mine shimmy-free.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2009, at 1:36 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>
>>
>> I love these discussions - lots of theory vs. what works.
>>
>> Next time we have someone post a question on how to eliminate tail wheel
>> shimmy, the consensus will be to go to the Mateson geometry to correct
>> the problem. Talking about shopping cart shimmy, check the offending
>> castor next time you get one. One sure way it will happen is if the nut
>> holding the pivot is loose or the bearings are shot, allowing the castor
>> to go the way of Maule. Or if it hit a curb and bent the structure to
>> allow the Maule geometry.
>>
>> Of course the other way to stop tail wheel shimmy is to use forward
>> stick on roll out taking weight off the wheel which will reduce the
>> Maule geonetry and increase the Matteson geometry.
>>
>> I guess it depends on what you want in a tailwheel - forward tracking or
>> absense of shimmy. For me personally, I'd toss the Maule instructions
>> and just copy Lynns photo and put it in my book - minus the third leaf,
>> of course.
>>
>> Lowell Fitt
>> Cameron Park, CA
>> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
>> Just about ready to cover fuselage and left wing.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E."
>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:54 AM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>>
>>
>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, January 18, 2009 3:50 am, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>>>> That picture was taken with load on it, Paul. At least with the full
>>>> weight of the plane on it, but no pilot or passenger, and probably
>>>> close to full tanks (26 gallons) (I know I report a low-fuel warning
>>>> light frequently, but that's another issue : ) )
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what you mean by "slightly angled in the wrong
>>>> direction? This is the way it sits, and flies, and has flown and
>>>> landed for two years, 600 hrs, and over 1300 landings...what could
>>>> possibly be wrong?
>>>
>>> Might be an optical illusion in your photo. But it looks like the axis
>>> of turning
>>> rotation (through the kingpin) is slightly forward at the bottom. I
>>> surmised that it
>>> is probably closer to vertical or slightly trailing when you're in the
>>> plane.
>>>
>>>> Without looking TOO hard for them the only "safety springs" I found
>>>> were the Maule anti-shimmy springs (pictured) that I mentioned a few
>>>> posts ago, that did not allow me to turn (easily) to the left. I
>>>> mentioned that at the time I tried these springs was at a time before
>>>> I had any tailwheel training, so I was maybe not as positive about
>>>> what should be going on when I taxied the plane. When I bought these
>>>> springs, I bought them for the "safety" feature, not necessarily the
>>>> anti-shimmy feature. Subsequently, I learned (correctly, I believe)
>>>> that the safety issue is overemphasized in that if a (control) spring
>>>> breaks, it's no big deal, as the tailwheel will caster if set up
>>>> correctly...and mine is....and will follow the plane. There are some
>>>> pilots that do not even have tailwheel control, preferring to allow
>>>> the tailwheel to follow with NO attachment to the rudder or any other
>>>> control device...none....think tail skid.
>>>
>>> The safety springs won't fall apart dangling the chains if they break.
>>> I have
>>> symmetric ones. I think they are readily available at hardware stores
>>> like Home Depot
>>> and Lowes.
>>>
>>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the wrong
>>> direction.
>>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>>>
>>> I just can't be certain of the king pin angle from the photo. Obviously
>>> your setup is
>>> working so it must operate close enough to vertical or slightly
>>> trailing. I also
>>> notice you have a real steep tail spring angle. That would make it
>>> extend just
>>> slightly when rolling too and means you have lower bending loads on
>>> your tail wheel
>>> springs and the 1300 landings without it breaking is testimony to this.
>>>
>>> I think copying your working setup is a good idea.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul A. Franz, P.E.
>>> PAF Consulting Engineers
>>> Office 425.440.9505
>>> Cell 425.241.1618
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 14
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It wasn't too many years ago that it was going for $600. What did they do
to it?
We need more choices!
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
> At $1000 + a pop, that sum'itch BETTER not shimmy! ...the Scott, that
> is....
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:12 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
>
>
>> Just wondering. Do the "Home Builders Special" units shimmy? I haven't
>> heard any mention of them. How about the Scott 3200?
>>
>> Deke Morisse
>> Mikado Michigan
>> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
>> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
>> progress."
>> - Joseph Joubert
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Denny Aircraft |
Someone beat you to the punch Bob. Sorry.
Dee
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Brennan<mailto:matronics@bob.brennan.name>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Denny Aircraft
Hey Dee - how about donating it to someone who has a combo VHS/DVD
recorder and can make DVD copies for anyone who wants it? Like me.... I
don't mind doing it for the group.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dee Young
Sent: 19 January 2009 10:41 am
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Denny Aircraft
I acquired a video tape titled "Denny Aero Craft Company". The
description on the tape "The ultimate STOL folding wing, towable,
backyard, recreational fun-flying aircraft".
Denny Aerocraft Co. 100 N. Kings Rd.
Nampa, Id 83687 (208)466-1711
This was a demonstration tape that came with my Model II kit.
If someone would like this to add to a collection of memorabilia. I
would be glad to donate this if they will pay the shipping. Just drop me
a not off list.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
KFM 112
Do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: disassemble c-box question |
http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part%2055.PDF
This takes you through it. When I pulled mine apart, I had to do just a little
more than "tap" it.... I gave it a good "timex" tap and the front cover popped
off. I think from you description that you are having issues getting the front
cover off?
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225687#225687
Message 17
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Raised the price.
John Hart
KF IV
NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
It wasn't too many years ago that it was going for $600. What did they do
to it?
We need more choices!
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
> At $1000 + a pop, that sum'itch BETTER not shimmy! ...the Scott, that
> is....
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:12 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
>
>
>> Just wondering. Do the "Home Builders Special" units shimmy? I haven't
>> heard any mention of them. How about the Scott 3200?
>>
>> Deke Morisse
>> Mikado Michigan
>> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
>> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
>> progress."
>> - Joseph Joubert
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Pictures and stories of Kitfox aircraft being put to |
use
The VW engines pulls the KF IV around very well. I have had great success with
the engine so far.
Like many, I don't get to fly as much as I would like to. However, this past year
I did use the Kitfox to help me do something else I enjoy very much.
Duck hunting! Prior to this past years duck hunting season in Missouri I used
the Kitox to scout out new hunting areas along with taking pictures of a duck
blind some friends and I where building on the Mississippi. The aerial photo's
helped greatly in identifying where to hunt and also how to access the area
on foot. I really enjoyed this flying because I had a mission using the KF.
It was a lot of fun.
I attached some photos I shot of the hunting areas and duck blinds on the river.
All of the little brush piles are duck blinds. I also attached a photo my daughter
took right after take off from my home airport (KCPS). If you look closely
you can see the airport very well and right behind it is the St. Louis Arch.
It was a great shot by my daughter.
Chris Budd
N53RJ
Kitfox IV Speedster
VW 2180 230hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225694#225694
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_5467_2_131.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/iphonepics_035_2_176.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/iphonepics_021_3_279.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0875_2_296.jpg
Message 19
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Yeah, I've had mine apart and it's pretty crude, alright. I was just
hefting my (long since removed) Maule tailwheel, and that alone is a
chunk of weight. I cn imagine that once it got to shaking/wobbling,
it wouldn't want to quit.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 11:29 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> Now, you might be on to something here, my good friend Herr
> Matteson. Perhaps the wheel/tire itself has something to do with
> it, but somehow I doubt it. More than likely it is the mechanicals
> of the Maule design that make it finicky. If you've ever had one
> apart, you would see that they aren't exactly a precision instrument.
>
> I once had a Piper Vagabond PA17 with the Maule hard tire tail
> wheel. That thing shimmied and shook so bad that I thought it
> would tear the back end of the airplane apart. Of course, it
> didn't do it on the grass strip where I bought it. It wasn't until
> later that I landed on a paved strip that it reared it's ugly
> head. A quick look told me what the problem was. The tailwheel
> spring, probably the original and 50+ years old, had lost most of
> it's arc and the kingpin was tilted way back which made the thing
> work like a worn out shopping cart. A $40 replacement spring
> assembly purchased from Wicks solved the problem immediately. No
> more shimmy-shimmy-shake-shake!
>
> It amazes me that we have so few choices for a decent tailwheel out
> there.
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
> progress."
> - Joseph Joubert
>
>
> ...Lynn scrawled:
>
>> Hey, I just thought of something....all you shimmy-shimmy, shake-
>> shake (thanks Deke, I like that) guys...are you all using the
>> stock, narrow and tall bungee-style landing gear? The "Matteson
>> Geometry" (patent pending) uses the Maule tailwheel assembly with
>> aftermarket Aircraft Spruce Homebuilders Special Tailwheel
>> replacement wheel, the Grove main gear, and a rookie
>> pilot....maybe it's the total package that is what makes mine
>> shimmy-free.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> New skis done and flying
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2009, at 1:36 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>>
>>> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>>
>>> I love these discussions - lots of theory vs. what works.
>>>
>>> Next time we have someone post a question on how to eliminate
>>> tail wheel shimmy, the consensus will be to go to the Mateson
>>> geometry to correct the problem. Talking about shopping cart
>>> shimmy, check the offending castor next time you get one. One
>>> sure way it will happen is if the nut holding the pivot is loose
>>> or the bearings are shot, allowing the castor to go the way of
>>> Maule. Or if it hit a curb and bent the structure to allow the
>>> Maule geometry.
>>>
>>> Of course the other way to stop tail wheel shimmy is to use
>>> forward stick on roll out taking weight off the wheel which will
>>> reduce the Maule geonetry and increase the Matteson geometry.
>>>
>>> I guess it depends on what you want in a tailwheel - forward
>>> tracking or absense of shimmy. For me personally, I'd toss the
>>> Maule instructions and just copy Lynns photo and put it in my
>>> book - minus the third leaf, of course.
>>>
>>> Lowell Fitt
>>> Cameron Park, CA
>>> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
>>> Just about ready to cover fuselage and left wing.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E."
>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:54 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>>>
>>>
>>>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, January 18, 2009 3:50 am, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>>>>> That picture was taken with load on it, Paul. At least with the
>>>>> full
>>>>> weight of the plane on it, but no pilot or passenger, and probably
>>>>> close to full tanks (26 gallons) (I know I report a low-fuel
>>>>> warning
>>>>> light frequently, but that's another issue : ) )
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure what you mean by "slightly angled in the wrong
>>>>> direction? This is the way it sits, and flies, and has flown and
>>>>> landed for two years, 600 hrs, and over 1300 landings...what could
>>>>> possibly be wrong?
>>>>
>>>> Might be an optical illusion in your photo. But it looks like
>>>> the axis of turning
>>>> rotation (through the kingpin) is slightly forward at the
>>>> bottom. I surmised that it
>>>> is probably closer to vertical or slightly trailing when you're
>>>> in the plane.
>>>>
>>>>> Without looking TOO hard for them the only "safety springs" I
>>>>> found
>>>>> were the Maule anti-shimmy springs (pictured) that I mentioned
>>>>> a few
>>>>> posts ago, that did not allow me to turn (easily) to the left. I
>>>>> mentioned that at the time I tried these springs was at a time
>>>>> before
>>>>> I had any tailwheel training, so I was maybe not as positive about
>>>>> what should be going on when I taxied the plane. When I bought
>>>>> these
>>>>> springs, I bought them for the "safety" feature, not
>>>>> necessarily the
>>>>> anti-shimmy feature. Subsequently, I learned (correctly, I
>>>>> believe)
>>>>> that the safety issue is overemphasized in that if a (control)
>>>>> spring
>>>>> breaks, it's no big deal, as the tailwheel will caster if set up
>>>>> correctly...and mine is....and will follow the plane. There are
>>>>> some
>>>>> pilots that do not even have tailwheel control, preferring to
>>>>> allow
>>>>> the tailwheel to follow with NO attachment to the rudder or
>>>>> any other
>>>>> control device...none....think tail skid.
>>>>
>>>> The safety springs won't fall apart dangling the chains if they
>>>> break. I have
>>>> symmetric ones. I think they are readily available at hardware
>>>> stores like Home Depot
>>>> and Lowes.
>>>>
>>>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in
>>>> the wrong direction.
>>>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>>>>
>>>> I just can't be certain of the king pin angle from the photo.
>>>> Obviously your setup is
>>>> working so it must operate close enough to vertical or slightly
>>>> trailing. I also
>>>> notice you have a real steep tail spring angle. That would make
>>>> it extend just
>>>> slightly when rolling too and means you have lower bending
>>>> loads on your tail wheel
>>>> springs and the 1300 landings without it breaking is testimony
>>>> to this.
>>>>
>>>> I think copying your working setup is a good idea.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Paul A. Franz, P.E.
>>>> PAF Consulting Engineers
>>>> Office 425.440.9505
>>>> Cell 425.241.1618
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 20
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Hopefully this afternoon I'll have it fitted and will post a photo -
thanks Paul
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
"Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul@eucleides.com>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
19/01/2009 06:50 PM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Sun, January 18, 2009 10:36 pm, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
> Well while you're contemplating your navel here some photos and details
of
> the adaptor bracket:
Gary - nice design, nice drawing, great photos and the craftsmanship is
superb. You
obviously have access to tools. Maybe you packed them in with your plane
in the big
trans-ocean crate.
How about a side elevation shot of with the tail wheel loaded? I suppose
you have to
wait for the paint to dry. :))
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Landing gear in correct position??? |
Francisco,
Knowing that is not a Kitfox=85 and therefore do not
know what
exceptions you have accounted for. That is not the correct position for
the
gear on the Kitfox current or previous models.
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Drovetta
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:16 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Landing gear in correct position???
Hi!
I=B4d like to know if my spring aluminium (Grove Type) landing gear is
in
correct position.
with this configuration, could be dangerous to land?
Photos attached.
Tks
Francisco Drovetta
Kitfox IV "brazilian version" with Cont O-200
S=E3o Paulo, SP
Brazil
www.dcubj3.com.br
Message 22
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How about a spot for a drilled he4ad and a bit of lockwire?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Yet another thought (as I lay in bed trying to forget this subject)
regarding the torqued bolt....why not use a castellated bolt, and
washers and cotter pin, perhaps drilling an additional cross-hole to
fine-tune the torque setting. I know mine gets loose and I have to
tighten it occasionally. And given the dictates of 43.13, which
stipulates (somewhere, I'm sure) that any bolt subject to movement
shall use a nut and cotter pin rather than a self-locking nut, or
words to that effect...doesn't it? This isn't the classic swiveling
bolt condition where the castle nut and cotter pin is required, but
it is similar.
I greased my leaves before I assembled the spring, for whatever
that's worth.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 19, 2009, at 12:46 AM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Yes Lynn - in fact they actually gave me a toque setting for the
> bolt. I'm glad you reminded me though as I probably would have put
> the adaptor on and then tensioned it right up.
>
> And enough jokes about engineers - Ha
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> "This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 19/01/2009 03:37 PM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
>
>
> One other thing to remember, Gary....I'm sure your new spring setup
> has one of the two main leaves with a larger hole on the tailwheel
> ass'y end, does it not? Make sure that you don't tighten that
> retaining bolt rock solid, but allow it a *tiny* bit of less-than
> tight torque, so that the springs can flex, and thus gain and lose
> comparative length....you know this as an engineer, right? (Not that
> I'm holding that against you) : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 12:05 AM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary Algate
> > SMC, Exploration
> > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
> >
> >
> > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> > this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> > "This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> > and happy Christmas".
> >
> >
> > I can't disagree with your reasoning. If yours works then that's
> > all that matters.
> >
> > I have the adaptor in my hand and hope to get out to the plane this
> > evening to make the mods - I'll report back.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Gary
> > Classic 4 Jab 2200
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > 19/01/2009 02:57 PM
> > Please respond to
> > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> > To
> > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > cc
> > Subject
> > Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe the newer spring angle is doing something to the spring, lock-
> > pin,steering arm interface, I don't know. Obviously something has
> > changed, and the spring angle is the only thing different, so you're
> > doing what you have to do to change that. Because of the lack of a
> > bend-back angle to the spring, your tail must be sitting higher, and
> > this could lead to some differences in the plane's behavior.
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> > ==================================
>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 23
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I'm not sure what you're suggesting, Noel. It seems like a drilled
head would only retain the bolt if the nut decided to leave. Unless
you're suggesting to wrap safety wire through the drilled head,
around the spring leafs, and through the drilled bolt body and nut...?
Maybe you'd better clarify, Noel, I'm gettin' nowhere with it. : )
It is simply a case for a cross-drilled bolt...2 holes at 90 degrees
to one another.... (through the threaded end) and a castle nut. This
gives 1/12th turn resolution for tightening...twice the options for
getting the nut to a preload that is preferred, over that of a single-
drilled hole through the threads.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:17 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> How about a spot for a drilled he4ad and a bit of lockwire?
>
> Noel
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:50 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
>
> Yet another thought (as I lay in bed trying to forget this subject)
> regarding the torqued bolt....why not use a castellated bolt, and
> washers and cotter pin, perhaps drilling an additional cross-hole to
> fine-tune the torque setting. I know mine gets loose and I have to
> tighten it occasionally. And given the dictates of 43.13, which
> stipulates (somewhere, I'm sure) that any bolt subject to movement
> shall use a nut and cotter pin rather than a self-locking nut, or
> words to that effect...doesn't it? This isn't the classic swiveling
> bolt condition where the castle nut and cotter pin is required, but
> it is similar.
>
> I greased my leaves before I assembled the spring, for whatever
> that's worth.
>
> Lynn Matteson
Message 24
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At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>wrong direction.
>Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document, but
found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot "forward",
meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground intersects
the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!) spring so
there's no question of it flexing even under the load of my
incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine at
all speeds. Why?
My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's my
educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass for
inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify shimmy
that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a way to
"amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the moment
offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the wheel to
want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by the "forward"
pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
2. Pivot "aft" per
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At
rest, if the tailwheel turns the tail lifts and the tailwheel wants
to return to centerline. In motion the response is the same as in 1,
above. The "tail lift" caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the
restorative force.
I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have less
likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
(though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
Regards,
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear in correct position??? |
At 03:15 PM 1/17/2009, you wrote:
>I=B4d like to know if my spring aluminium (Grove
>Type) landing gear is in correct position.
>with this configuration, could be dangerous to land?
Francisco,
Sad to say it does appear that your
landing gear are further aft than is typical with
Grove gear. However, the only thing that matters
are the numbers. My plane has its axle 1.875"
(48mm) behind the leading edge when in the
measurement configuration, which means the lower
door sill / fuselage bottom is horizontal, and
the plane is "empty". When in that configuration,
7.3% of the weight is on the tail wheel. (The
tail wheel is 163" (4140mm) behind the leading
edge.) Also in that configuration my CG is 13.68"
(347mm) behind the leading edge. Let us know how that compares to yours.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 26
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Cameras have been around a long time. Romans knew the Camera Obscura...
literally "Dark Room". Like Freddy Fintstone the artist went in the camera
and traced the picture inverted. George Eastman Patented paper roll film in
1880 and the Kodak Camera (roll film) in 1888. We have had home computers
less than 35 Yr... Acrobat, around 25 yr. Inserting pictures into the file
is no more difficult than inserting the drawings. Yes he could have used
photographs if he wanted to.
He probably thought the drawings were cleaner.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Golden
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
<dgolden@golden-consulting.com>
Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> That article might be using a different Maule tailwheel assy than the
> one I have or that you have....but remember, that article shows a
> drawing, not a picture of the actual part. Drawing a picture takes
> time...why would the author not just shoot a picture if he had all the
> parts right there to do all the other pictures in the article?This
> question leads me to view with some "suspicion" the whole article.
Ever stop to consider the possible shortage of digital cameras and image
software when the article was written?
Regards,
Dennis Model IV Speedster (someday)
--
Dennis Golden
Golden Consulting Services, Inc.
Message 27
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Guy Buchanan wrote:
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>
> I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Did you at least stay at a holiday in express last night :dunno: If not we are
gonna have to lump your opinion in with the other chumps LOL. Sorry, I let the
humor outa the bag again, I need to tie a tighter knot in the top of it.
My tail wheel is the Matco Pneumatic and with the 2 leaf spring (gasp, I hope is
does not fall off) as luck would have it it is pretty much straight up and down
on the pivot point, maybe leaning slightly aft. No issues with shimmy, but
I take off full stick forward and get the tail up in just a few feet so I don't
have anything digging into the turf. Landings are normally 3 pointers but
I have not had any shimmy issues yet. I run the compression springs pretty darn
tight and that may have alot to do with it too.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225739#225739
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/leni_avid_tailwheel_221.jpg
Message 28
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At 09:30 PM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>Yes it certainly sits higher but the angle is really the problem I
>think. If mine is sitting stationery and I give the tail a push to
>unlatch the tail wheel it will swing completely 180 deg so that the
>tail wheel assy faces backwards. It's then a doozy trying to get it
>turned around.
Gary,
Though I think you've got the right direction, it sounds
like you've got too much of a good thing. My angle "forward", (pivot
centerline forward of vertical at the ground,) is only about two or
three degrees. (And no, I don't flex "aft". I have the Grove spring.
It ain't goin' nowhere.) I'll try to measure it when I get a chance.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
At 07:24 PM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>I just have to cut down the flaperons and make the wing slide in
>extensions should I want to go back to the standard wing.
Paul,
I'd think hard about figuring out how to get the flaperons
back. (Maybe a slide-in flaperon extension too.) I'd hate to fly a
long-wing or Speedster with "inboard" flaperons.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 30
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On Mon, January 19, 2009 8:29 am, fox5flyer wrote:
> It amazes me that we have so few choices for a decent tailwheel out there.
Maule and Scott have been mentioned. Mine is a Matco and seems to be pretty well
built.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 31
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Nope, NOT a Maule document, and not overly accurate in at least one
statement, that of the break-away occurring only on left turns. This
document seems to have grown a life of its own being, perhaps, one of
the few available. I printed it out early on in my Kitfox-building
life and hung onto it like a life preserver. It got me where I needed
to get to, and now I can see some faults with it, but it's better
than nothing...I think. As a primer for taking your assembly apart
and fixing it, it suffices, but it is not an end-all. It is not a
textbook about tailwheel geometry.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
Message 32
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I don't know why, but I was under the impression the bolt was threaded into
one of the leaves as a vibration damper...
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
I'm not sure what you're suggesting, Noel. It seems like a drilled
head would only retain the bolt if the nut decided to leave. Unless
you're suggesting to wrap safety wire through the drilled head,
around the spring leafs, and through the drilled bolt body and nut...?
Maybe you'd better clarify, Noel, I'm gettin' nowhere with it. : )
It is simply a case for a cross-drilled bolt...2 holes at 90 degrees
to one another.... (through the threaded end) and a castle nut. This
gives 1/12th turn resolution for tightening...twice the options for
getting the nut to a preload that is preferred, over that of a single-
drilled hole through the threads.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:17 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> How about a spot for a drilled he4ad and a bit of lockwire?
>
> Noel
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:50 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
>
> Yet another thought (as I lay in bed trying to forget this subject)
> regarding the torqued bolt....why not use a castellated bolt, and
> washers and cotter pin, perhaps drilling an additional cross-hole to
> fine-tune the torque setting. I know mine gets loose and I have to
> tighten it occasionally. And given the dictates of 43.13, which
> stipulates (somewhere, I'm sure) that any bolt subject to movement
> shall use a nut and cotter pin rather than a self-locking nut, or
> words to that effect...doesn't it? This isn't the classic swiveling
> bolt condition where the castle nut and cotter pin is required, but
> it is similar.
>
> I greased my leaves before I assembled the spring, for whatever
> that's worth.
>
> Lynn Matteson
Message 33
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Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
gotta love it.
One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
"caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
"variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
"castrate", which I also like to avoid.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
Message 34
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On Mon, January 19, 2009 2:32 pm, Guy Buchanan wrote:
clip clip
> What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
That is a pretty good story and writeup. He also has posted his arbitrary definition
with a drawing of what he uses as positive and negative caster angle.
<http://www.pierceaero.net/techdata/tws.jpg>
I see that the amount of caster offset apparently offers greater shimmy resistance
which more than compensates for the loss by the tail lifting force produced by
the
posiitive angle. This is confirmed by testing and corroborates Lynn's experience.
A small positive angle (like Lynn's) seems to be the ticket to success along with
good
maintenance, lubrication, and if using a pneumatic tire, high enough pressure to
keep
the tire from slipping on the rim in spin up. A positive angle also makes it easier
to
induce a turn. Too much and it will spin around backwards.
It would appear to me that 15 to 20 degrees of negative king pin angle is likely
to
produce shimmy.
I have mine set at very close to vertical. If I have shimmy problems, I'll give
it a
wee bit of positive tilt by shimming the tail spring.
This has been great with so many people providing experience input. Lynn, Deke,
Guy,
Lowell, Noel, Len and Gary have all contributed to this knowledge base.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight - Brazilian Kitfox with O-200 |
Parabens Francisco! Um voo para lembrar!
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
-
do not archive
--- On Sun, 1/18/09, Francisco Drovetta <dcubj3@terra.com.br> wrote:
From: Francisco Drovetta <dcubj3@terra.com.br>
Subject: Kitfox-List: First Flight - Brazilian Kitfox with O-200
Hi!
PU-KFV first flight today.
Two-30 minutes flights-of-exciting fun
After 1.5 year of construction !!!
I=B4m very happy.
-
Next step is modify grove type landing gear.
We have to study how can we do, because It don=B4t have 1st brackets..
-
Tks a lot
-
Francisco Drovetta
Kitfox IV "brazilian version" with Cont O-200
S=E3o Paulo, SP
Brazil
-
www.dcubj3.com.br=0A=0A=0A
Message 36
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O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn Matteson
but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m. and you
don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or three
guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K - III
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
gotta love it.
One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
"caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
"variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
"castrate", which I also like to avoid.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
Message 37
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Not from what I've seen. No, the bolt passes through the 2 main
leaves...in the case of the 3-leaf McBean spring at least, and
through the tailwheel assembly, and has a nut on the other side. In
the case of the original single *main* leaf spring, you can tighten
that mounting bolt up 'til the cows come home. But with the 2 main
leaves, one having a larger hole than the other...to allow for the
different lengths of travel as they bend...you cannot tighten the
mounting bolt as much. The leaves must slide against each other as
they flex, although this movement is small and in accordance with how
much the spring flexes....the more bounce, the more longitudinal
movement between them. This is why I suggested a castellated nut, and
a drilled bolt shank, and to get a more accurate "fine-tuning" of the
amount of torque, a cross-drilled shank (2 holes at 90 degrees to
each other) to allow 1/12th of a turn accuracy in adjusting the torque.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 19, 2009, at 10:21 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> I don't know why, but I was under the impression the bolt was
> threaded into
> one of the leaves as a vibration damper...
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:43 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
>
> I'm not sure what you're suggesting, Noel. It seems like a drilled
> head would only retain the bolt if the nut decided to leave. Unless
> you're suggesting to wrap safety wire through the drilled head,
> around the spring leafs, and through the drilled bolt body and nut...?
> Maybe you'd better clarify, Noel, I'm gettin' nowhere with it. : )
>
> It is simply a case for a cross-drilled bolt...2 holes at 90 degrees
> to one another.... (through the threaded end) and a castle nut. This
> gives 1/12th turn resolution for tightening...twice the options for
> getting the nut to a preload that is preferred, over that of a single-
> drilled hole through the threads.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:17 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>
>> How about a spot for a drilled he4ad and a bit of lockwire?
>>
>> Noel
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
>> Matteson
>> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:50 AM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>>
>>
>> Yet another thought (as I lay in bed trying to forget this subject)
>> regarding the torqued bolt....why not use a castellated bolt, and
>> washers and cotter pin, perhaps drilling an additional cross-hole to
>> fine-tune the torque setting. I know mine gets loose and I have to
>> tighten it occasionally. And given the dictates of 43.13, which
>> stipulates (somewhere, I'm sure) that any bolt subject to movement
>> shall use a nut and cotter pin rather than a self-locking nut, or
>> words to that effect...doesn't it? This isn't the classic swiveling
>> bolt condition where the castle nut and cotter pin is required, but
>> it is similar.
>>
>> I greased my leaves before I assembled the spring, for whatever
>> that's worth.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>
>
Message 38
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Well I was going to post the fotos of my new setup plus results but
certainly don't want to offend Frank Miles or others - I'll send the
details off-line!
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Kitfox Classic Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
"Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
20/01/2009 10:54 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
<f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn Matteson
but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m. and you
don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or three
guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K - III
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
gotta love it.
One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
"caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
"variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
"castrate", which I also like to avoid.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule=5FTailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
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Message 39
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Ever heard of "delete"?
And I've GOT a life....I spent my time today...when I wasn't counting
postings....working on the skis that I recently built and will fly up
to Oshkosh this weekend. For lunch, I met with three other fliers who
flew their ski-equipped Piper Cubs into Napoleon Airport in 13 inches
of snow.
I fly my Kitfox plane from coast-to-coast when it suits me, and I've
learned a lot from this group of builders, and when I can share some
of what I've learned, I do so, and I usually don't bother with petty
grievances such as yours, but this one caught me in just the right
mood to strike back.
How's YOUR life if it means counting posts? Have you got a
contribution to make to the group?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 7:17 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
> 833@clearwire.net>
>
>
> O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn
> Matteson
> but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m.
> and you
> don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or
> three
> guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K - III
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
>
> Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
> being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
> useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
> pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
> gotta love it.
>
> One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
> "caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
> mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
> respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
> "variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
> learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
> to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
> "castrate", which I also like to avoid.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
>>
>> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>>> wrong direction.
>>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>>
>> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
>> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
>> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
>> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
>> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
>> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
>> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
>> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
>> at all speeds. Why?
>> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
>> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
>> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
>> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
>> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
>> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>>
>> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
>> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
>> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
>> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
>> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
>> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>>
>> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
>> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
>> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
>> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
>> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>>
>> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
>> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
>> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
>> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
>> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
>> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
>> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
>> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
>> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
>> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
>> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
>> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Guy Buchanan
>> San Diego, CA
>> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 40
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Here's one vote to say please post them to the group. At first I was
convinced that the "Maule Geometry" was correct, although with all the
traffic here did not need to add my input. (Remember, I are a engineer<g>).
But you guys have made a great case for the "Matteson Geometry" and I think
you should go ahead with that Pat Pending Lynn<wink>. And some of the long
winded diatribes I did in fact delete...
Keep up the good discussion guys, never mind the cranks.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: 19 January 2009 7:32 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Well I was going to post the fotos of my new setup plus results but
certainly don't want to offend Frank Miles or others - I'll send the
details off-line!
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Kitfox Classic Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any
review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons
or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or
e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept
liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which
may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
"This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to <http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/australia.html>
UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".
"Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
20/01/2009 10:54 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
<f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn Matteson
but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m. and you
don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or three
guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K - III
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
gotta love it.
One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
"caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
"variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
"castrate", which I also like to avoid.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
Message 41
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Yes, I have heard of delete and I do it often. When you get over being
offended maybe you will think about what I said and slow down down on the
verbiage and keep your postings relevant. Those 14 or so postings was just
today!
Frank
Oh, I don't really care what you did all day!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Ever heard of "delete"?
And I've GOT a life....I spent my time today...when I wasn't counting
postings....working on the skis that I recently built and will fly up
to Oshkosh this weekend. For lunch, I met with three other fliers who
flew their ski-equipped Piper Cubs into Napoleon Airport in 13 inches
of snow.
I fly my Kitfox plane from coast-to-coast when it suits me, and I've
learned a lot from this group of builders, and when I can share some
of what I've learned, I do so, and I usually don't bother with petty
grievances such as yours, but this one caught me in just the right
mood to strike back.
How's YOUR life if it means counting posts? Have you got a
contribution to make to the group?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 7:17 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
> 833@clearwire.net>
>
>
> O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn
> Matteson
> but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m.
> and you
> don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or
> three
> guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K - III
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
>
> Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
> being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
> useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
> pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
> gotta love it.
>
> One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
> "caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
> mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
> respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
> "variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
> learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
> to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
> "castrate", which I also like to avoid.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
>>
>> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>>> wrong direction.
>>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>>
>> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
>> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
>> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
>> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
>> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
>> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
>> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
>> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
>> at all speeds. Why?
>> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
>> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
>> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
>> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
>> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
>> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>>
>> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
>> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
>> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
>> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
>> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
>> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>>
>> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
>> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
>> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
>> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
>> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>>
>> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
>> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
>> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
>> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
>> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
>> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
>> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
>> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
>> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
>> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
>> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
>> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Guy Buchanan
>> San Diego, CA
>> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 42
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Gary,
I have a Kitfox Model 1 and I just broke my spring last week so I have
been absorbing all this talk about springs. Please continue to post pics
on the group. There might be others out there interested. If people
aren't interested in this subject they don't have to read them.
Dan Wild
mdl1
532
From: gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Well I was going to post the fotos of my new setup plus results but
certainly don't want to offend Frank Miles or others - I'll send the
details off-line!
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Kitfox Classic Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
"This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
"Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
20/01/2009 10:54 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
<f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn Matteson
but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m. and
you
don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or three
guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K - III
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
gotta love it.
One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
"caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
"variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
"castrate", which I also like to avoid.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
Message 43
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At 04:17 PM 1/19/2009, you wrote:
> O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn Matteson
>but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m. and you
>don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or three
>guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
Please don't respond to this. (I see I was too slow for Lynn, but
please don't respond to his post either.) The moderators will handle
it off-line.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 44
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On Mon, January 19, 2009 4:31 pm, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
> Well I was going to post the fotos of my new setup plus results but
> certainly don't want to offend Frank Miles or others - I'll send the
> details off-line!
If others are like me, I have been eagerly anticipating your photos and writeup.
I
don't see posting them in the forum as being intrusive at all.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 45
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:Snack:
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225766#225766
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/internet_fight_907.jpg
Message 46
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Ok! So that spring has two main "master" leaves... That is a new one for me
but I can see what you are saying.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Not from what I've seen. No, the bolt passes through the 2 main
leaves...in the case of the 3-leaf McBean spring at least, and
through the tailwheel assembly, and has a nut on the other side. In
the case of the original single *main* leaf spring, you can tighten
that mounting bolt up 'til the cows come home. But with the 2 main
leaves, one having a larger hole than the other...to allow for the
different lengths of travel as they bend...you cannot tighten the
mounting bolt as much. The leaves must slide against each other as
they flex, although this movement is small and in accordance with how
much the spring flexes....the more bounce, the more longitudinal
movement between them. This is why I suggested a castellated nut, and
a drilled bolt shank, and to get a more accurate "fine-tuning" of the
amount of torque, a cross-drilled shank (2 holes at 90 degrees to
each other) to allow 1/12th of a turn accuracy in adjusting the torque.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 19, 2009, at 10:21 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> I don't know why, but I was under the impression the bolt was
> threaded into
> one of the leaves as a vibration damper...
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:43 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>
>
> I'm not sure what you're suggesting, Noel. It seems like a drilled
> head would only retain the bolt if the nut decided to leave. Unless
> you're suggesting to wrap safety wire through the drilled head,
> around the spring leafs, and through the drilled bolt body and nut...?
> Maybe you'd better clarify, Noel, I'm gettin' nowhere with it. : )
>
> It is simply a case for a cross-drilled bolt...2 holes at 90 degrees
> to one another.... (through the threaded end) and a castle nut. This
> gives 1/12th turn resolution for tightening...twice the options for
> getting the nut to a preload that is preferred, over that of a single-
> drilled hole through the threads.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:17 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>
>> How about a spot for a drilled he4ad and a bit of lockwire?
>>
>> Noel
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
>> Matteson
>> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:50 AM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
>>
>>
>> Yet another thought (as I lay in bed trying to forget this subject)
>> regarding the torqued bolt....why not use a castellated bolt, and
>> washers and cotter pin, perhaps drilling an additional cross-hole to
>> fine-tune the torque setting. I know mine gets loose and I have to
>> tighten it occasionally. And given the dictates of 43.13, which
>> stipulates (somewhere, I'm sure) that any bolt subject to movement
>> shall use a nut and cotter pin rather than a self-locking nut, or
>> words to that effect...doesn't it? This isn't the classic swiveling
>> bolt condition where the castle nut and cotter pin is required, but
>> it is similar.
>>
>> I greased my leaves before I assembled the spring, for whatever
>> that's worth.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>
>
Message 47
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On Mon, January 19, 2009 4:34 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> I spent my time today working on the skis that I recently built and will fly
up
> to Oshkosh this weekend.
Do you expect to use the skis landing at OSH?
You said you went with HDPE for the new ski bases and heating to bend the edges
worked
out well.
Have you abandoned the UHMW PE idea for bases or is this still going to happen?
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 48
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No no no no, Gary. Post 'em public and ignore the peanut gallery. Most
of us are learning something here, I think. Well, I am anyway.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: gary.algate@sandvik.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 7:31 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Well I was going to post the fotos of my new setup plus results but
certainly don't want to offend Frank Miles or others - I'll send the
details off-line!
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Kitfox Classic Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us
immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your
system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions
in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the
e-mail transmission.
"This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and
happy Christmas".
"Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
20/01/2009 10:54 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
<f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn
Matteson
but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m. and
you
don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or
three
guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K - III
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
gotta love it.
One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
"caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
"variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
"castrate", which I also like to avoid.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this:
http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely tailwheel |
On Mon, January 19, 2009 4:42 pm, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
some clippage...
> OK Gents here are two fotos (before) and after.
>
> The King Pin is now basically vertical (as on old setup), plane tracks
> beautifully, no shimmy (I couldn't help myself so I played hooky and went
> for a couple of circuits) and it unlatches with a tap of the brake and
> full rudder.
The adapter you made to straighten up the king pin angle adds a little length.
Is this
increased moment arm going to be alright? That effectively softens the spring rate
and
raises the tail slightly.
> I'm sure there is more to this than any one contributing factor and it
> probably also relates to the stance of the plane. (Mine has tube gear).
That appears to be the case. I now believe that a vertical king pin is ideal but
if
there is a shimmy tendency, putting in a small positive angle will work in your
favor.
> Thanks to all for your help on this as once again with everyone's help a
> problem has been solved and hopefully others can use the info
You certainly did nice work.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 50
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Bob
I guess I was being petty and "spat the dummy" for those of you that are
not interested please press Delete "now".
I fitted the adaptor this morning and it brought the King Pin vertical
(see before and after Fotos).
Taxi tests and some circuits proved that all is good. No shimmy at any
taxi speed, good stable, longitudinal control yet not heavy on the pedals.
All that is required to unlatch the tailwheel now is a tap on the brakes
and/or full rudder deflection.
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
Keep up the good discussion guys, never mind the cranks.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: 19 January 2009 7:32 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Well I was going to post the fotos of my new setup plus results but
certainly don't want to offend Frank Miles or others - I'll send the
details off-line!
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Kitfox Classic Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
"Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
20/01/2009 10:54 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
<f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn Matteson
but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m. and you
don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or three
guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K - III
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
gotta love it.
One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
"caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
"variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
"castrate", which I also like to avoid.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule=5FTailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob -
The Kitfox-List Email Forum utilities such Browse, --> -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS --> ================
========< - List
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">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 51
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Well, it isn't actually OSH, but an adjacent grass field called
Pioneer Airport, which, hopefully will be snow-covered that day. That
13-31 runway is right behind the EAA Museum, and each year they hold
an annual (duh!) EAA Skiplane Fly-in.
I did use the 3/16" HDPE, and the edge bending went ok, but not
great. I don't think I used enough heat, as the distance was too
great from end-to-end to sufficiently heat the length. I should have
got some help at that point. But the shorter, across-the-ski bends
went well. The next time I take the sheathings (as the FAA calls the
bottom material) off, I will re-do the side bends to see it I can
make them better. Right now, they look a bit scalloped between the
mounting tabs.
Today I added the "wear bars"...3" wide strips of HDPE that run the
length of the 66" part, and the shorter 30" part which is right in
front of the tire.
I'd still like to use that HVOS (high visibility orange with silicone
added) material that you mentioned, Paul, but the price of a 4' x 10'
sheet (the only way they sell it) with shipping would be close to
$275. If I went that way, I'd like reduce the 66" ski that I have
right now to 60", so that I could make 4 sets of skis out of one
sheet. At 66", I could make 2 sets and have 54" leftover for snow
boards, or something else.
On the skis I made two years ago, I did use 1/4" UHMW PE, but thought
I'd give the thinner HDPE a try this time.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:04 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Mon, January 19, 2009 4:34 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
>> I spent my time today working on the skis that I recently built
>> and will fly up
>> to Oshkosh this weekend.
>
> Do you expect to use the skis landing at OSH?
>
> You said you went with HDPE for the new ski bases and heating to
> bend the edges worked
> out well.
>
> Have you abandoned the UHMW PE idea for bases or is this still
> going to happen?
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
>
Message 52
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Did you do any damage to your rudder?
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Wild
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Gary,
I have a Kitfox Model 1 and I just broke my spring last week so I have been
absorbing all this talk about springs. Please continue to post pics on the
group. There might be others out there interested. If people aren't
interested in this subject they don't have to read them.
Dan Wild
mdl1
532
From: gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Well I was going to post the fotos of my new setup plus results but
certainly don't want to offend Frank Miles or others - I'll send the
details off-line!
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Kitfox Classic Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any
review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons
or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or
e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept
liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which
may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
"This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to <http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/australia.html>
UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".
"Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
20/01/2009 10:54 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
<f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn Matteson
but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m. and you
don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or three
guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K - III
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
gotta love it.
One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
"caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
"variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
"castrate", which I also like to avoid.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob - The
Kitfox-List Email Forum utilities such Browse, --> -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS --> ========================< - List
Contribution Web Site
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely tailwheel |
The adapter you made to straighten up the king pin angle adds a little
length. Is this
increased moment arm going to be alright? That effectively softens the
spring rate and
raises the tail slightly.
The spring rate is definitely softer but that's probably not a bad thing.
That appears to be the case. I now believe that a vertical king pin is
ideal but if
there is a shimmy tendency, putting in a small positive angle will work in
your favor.
If necessary I can put the adaptor in a press and decrease the angle, but
at the moment it appears to be pretty close to optimal for my plane.
Question to the list - does anybody know where the "chandelier" chain
supplied from Kitfox with the kit for the tailwheel drag lines can be
sourced. I had to extend mine and am now forced to use a cheap hardware
chain as I haven't been able to find a supplier for the original.
Gary
Paul A. Franz
Message 54
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Hi Gary
I am very interested in your setup as I am getting ready to change my single
spring to a double or triple. All this "tail wheel" talk couldn't come at a
better time.
Please do post your pics and results.
Brian
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: January 19, 2009 7:32 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Well I was going to post the fotos of my new setup plus results but
certainly don't want to offend Frank Miles or others - I'll send the
details off-line!
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Kitfox Classic Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any
review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons
or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or
e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept
liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which
may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
"This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to <http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/australia.html>
UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".
"Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
20/01/2009 10:54 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
<f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn Matteson
but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m. and you
don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or three
guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K - III
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
gotta love it.
One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
"caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
"variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
"castrate", which I also like to avoid.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
Message 55
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Gary - so you're saying the 0002 picture with the vertical angle worked
better for you? You're leaning me away from the "Matteson Geometry" now
(sorry Lynn), towards what I would have originally thought more logical.
And I think I might worry a bit about those "plant hanger" chains in 0002
that it looks like you got from Home Despot? The only reason I mention the
chains is that it looks like ones I bought for a tractor "job" and regretted
(ie VERY weak) and replaced with stronger ones from Tractor Supply.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: 19 January 2009 8:33 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Bob
I guess I was being petty and "spat the dummy" for those of you that are not
interested please press Delete "now".
I fitted the adaptor this morning and it brought the King Pin vertical (see
before and after Fotos).
Taxi tests and some circuits proved that all is good. No shimmy at any taxi
speed, good stable, longitudinal control yet not heavy on the pedals.
All that is required to unlatch the tailwheel now is a tap on the brakes
and/or full rudder deflection.
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
Keep up the good discussion guys, never mind the cranks.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: 19 January 2009 7:32 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Well I was going to post the fotos of my new setup plus results but
certainly don't want to offend Frank Miles or others - I'll send the
details off-line!
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Kitfox Classic Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any
review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons
or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or
e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept
liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which
may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
"This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to <http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/australia.html>
UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".
"Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
20/01/2009 10:54 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
<f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
O.K - I can't stand it any more. I don't know who you are Lynn Matteson
but you must not have a life. I count 14 postings since 11:30 a.m. and you
don't really have that much profound to say. Why don't you two or three
guys, as the kids use to say, get a room.
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K - III
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Excellent article, Guy....http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php. Not
being an engineer (bad enough being a Michigander), I found it very
useful and informative. Notice all the theories therein....high tire
pressure, low tire pressure, forward tilt, backward tilt, etc...ya
gotta love it.
One thing I did object to though, was his spelling of the word
"caster" ...he likes "castor" as does Drew Fidoe, author of the oft-
mentioned "Maule article" The dictionary likes the use of caster (in
respect to the current subject), but gives a nod to castor being a
"variant" of caster. I prefer caster because that's the word I
learned way back when. I think of castor as being something too close
to being a cathartic, and also a close dictionary neighbor of
"castrate", which I also like to avoid.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:54 AM 1/18/2009, you wrote:
>> Look at Gary's picture three. That is definitely extremely in the
>> wrong direction.
>> Reference the photo on page 17 of that Maule tailwheel writeup.
>
> I'm going to kick the nest, just to see if I can get some
> good data. I looked at the pdf, thinking it was a Maule document,
> but found it wasn't, so I'm not overly inclined to believe it, (or
> otherwise.) My configuration is as Lynn's, with the pivot
> "forward", meaning a line projected through the pivot to the ground
> intersects the ground forward of vertical. I use a Grove (gasp!)
> spring so there's no question of it flexing even under the load of
> my incredibly powerful physique. And yes, my plane taxis just fine
> at all speeds. Why?
> My conjecture during assembly was that the "forward"
> configuration minimized shimmy. Did I do any math? No. But here's
> my educated opinion: Shimmy is a resonance condition requiring mass
> for inertia, plus a restoring force for amplification. To amplify
> shimmy that restoring force wants to act at a time and in such a
> way to "amplify" the response. We have two cases to investigate:
>
> 1. Pivot "forward": (As above.) At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail drops and the tailwheel wants to continue to turn up until it
> has turned 180 degrees. In motion, if the tailwheel turns, the
> moment offset between the contact patch and the pivot causes the
> wheel to want to return to centerline. The "tail drop" caused by
> the "forward" pivot tends to reduce this restorative force.
>
> 2. Pivot "aft" per http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/
> Maule_Tailwheel.pdf, page 17: At rest, if the tailwheel turns the
> tail lifts and the tailwheel wants to return to centerline. In
> motion the response is the same as in 1, above. The "tail lift"
> caused by the "aft" pivot tends to add to the restorative force.
>
> I won't address the case of the pivot being vertical,
> because that's nearly impossible to achieve. Now in case 2 there is
> more restorative force than case 1. I therefore speculated that
> because the shimmy was driven by the restorative force I'd have
> less likelihood of shimmy if I had a "forward" pivot.
> That was my logic and it left me, for whatever reason, with
> no shimmy. Now as you have probably guessed, I are an engineer,
> (though I don't play one on TV,) and I did due diligence via the
> Internet. What I found was that, not surprisingly, caster wheel
> shimmy, being a resonance phenomenon, does not lend itself to
> cookbook answers; there are simply too many variables involved.
> Oh, and I also found this: http://www.pierceaero.net/tws.php.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob - The
Kitfox-List Email Forum utilities such Browse, --> -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS --> ========================< - List
Contribution Web Site
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 56
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| Subject: | Lynn's skis, trip to Oshkosh |
On Mon, January 19, 2009 5:40 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> I'd still like to use that HVOS (high visibility orange with silicone
> added) material that you mentioned, Paul, but the price of a 4' x 10'
> sheet (the only way they sell it) with shipping would be close to
> $275. If I went that way, I'd like reduce the 66" ski that I have
> right now to 60", so that I could make 4 sets of skis out of one
> sheet. At 66", I could make 2 sets and have 54" leftover for snow
> boards, or something else.
Getting 4 sets out of sheet making it about $70 each set sounds affordable.
Must be a way to do it without having to shorten the skis. Sounds to me like the
66"
length is about perfect and with the turned up edges, maybe even a little longer
would
be good too. Maybe a layout that requires a splicing might be possible given the
dimensions of the sheet that you have to suggest.
Would you use rub bars with HVOS too? If so, maybe you could cut the length you
want
and split the pieces with the rub bar? You could still get two full sets of skis
and 5
sets out of two sheets.
With so many people building skis, a little cooperation on the materials purchase
might be possible. Probably have to post on a few more e-mail lists and forums
though.
> On the skis I made two years ago, I did use 1/4" UHMW PE, but thought
> I'd give the thinner HDPE a try this time.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: Tailwheel chain |
On Mon, January 19, 2009 6:00 pm, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
> Question to the list - does anybody know where the "chandelier" chain
> supplied from Kitfox with the kit for the tailwheel drag lines can be
> sourced. I had to extend mine and am now forced to use a cheap hardware
> chain as I haven't been able to find a supplier for the original.
At Lowe's here, they have two type - case hardened nickel plate and galvanized
mild
steel.
What are the attributes you're looking for in a chain? Wear resistance? Corrosion
resistance? High tensile strength? Or maybe, you're looking for something other
than
simple closed link chain?
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 58
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Yep Bob - for me it addressed all of my problems.
I won't be leaving the plant hanger chains on there. I am trying to find a
supplier here in Oz that sells the right chain but it isn't as easy as it
was in the US and Canada.
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
Message 59
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No problem, Bob. The so-called "Matteson Geometry" is merely bolting
a Maule tailwheel ass'y. to the 3-leaf McBean spring. I did nothing
to add or detract from basic parts. It just works....for MY plane.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 19, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:
> Gary - so you're saying the 0002 picture with the vertical angle
> worked better for you? You're leaning me away from the "Matteson
> Geometry" now (sorry Lynn), towards what I would have originally
> thought more logical.
>
> And I think I might worry a bit about those "plant hanger" chains
> in 0002 that it looks like you got from Home Despot? The only
> reason I mention the chains is that it looks like ones I bought for
> a tractor "job" and regretted (ie VERY weak) and replaced with
> stronger ones from Tractor Supply.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: disassemble c-box question |
Get the CPS 582 DVD set. OUTSTANDING and takes you step by step through it all.
Jack
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225795#225795
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: Lynn's skis, trip to Oshkosh |
I'm was going to try to find a similar material locally, but have
been busy building/flying and haven't followed up on it.
Yes, $70 in sheathing material is just about right. That's about what
I paid for all the sheathing material I used in the present skis.
I'd rather not splice if I could help it, and I think I could shorten
by 6" without too much difficulty...maybe by widening by an inch or
so, (which would still fit within the 24" width of a 4-way split of
the 4' x 10' sheet) and still retain the area that I have now.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 19, 2009, at 9:11 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Mon, January 19, 2009 5:40 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
>> I'd still like to use that HVOS (high visibility orange with silicone
>> added) material that you mentioned, Paul, but the price of a 4' x 10'
>> sheet (the only way they sell it) with shipping would be close to
>> $275. If I went that way, I'd like reduce the 66" ski that I have
>> right now to 60", so that I could make 4 sets of skis out of one
>> sheet. At 66", I could make 2 sets and have 54" leftover for snow
>> boards, or something else.
>
> Getting 4 sets out of sheet making it about $70 each set sounds
> affordable.
>
> Must be a way to do it without having to shorten the skis. Sounds
> to me like the 66"
> length is about perfect and with the turned up edges, maybe even a
> little longer would
> be good too. Maybe a layout that requires a splicing might be
> possible given the
> dimensions of the sheet that you have to suggest.
>
> Would you use rub bars with HVOS too? If so, maybe you could cut
> the length you want
> and split the pieces with the rub bar? You could still get two full
> sets of skis and 5
> sets out of two sheets.
>
> With so many people building skis, a little cooperation on the
> materials purchase
> might be possible. Probably have to post on a few more e-mail lists
> and forums though.
>
>> On the skis I made two years ago, I did use 1/4" UHMW PE, but thought
>> I'd give the thinner HDPE a try this time.
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
>
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: Tailwheel chain |
With airplanes having 4130 frames you can just about forget corrosion
resistant... All the corrosion resisting is in the finish. So naturally go
for the case hardened nickel plate. Oh yes ... keep your plane off the
Utah salt flats in the rainy season.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz -
Merlin GT
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:51 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Tailwheel chain
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Mon, January 19, 2009 6:00 pm, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
> Question to the list - does anybody know where the "chandelier" chain
> supplied from Kitfox with the kit for the tailwheel drag lines can be
> sourced. I had to extend mine and am now forced to use a cheap hardware
> chain as I haven't been able to find a supplier for the original.
At Lowe's here, they have two type - case hardened nickel plate and
galvanized mild
steel.
What are the attributes you're looking for in a chain? Wear resistance?
Corrosion
resistance? High tensile strength? Or maybe, you're looking for something
other than
simple closed link chain?
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 63
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You can also try a marina or truck supply... sometimes the lifters on roll
doors have chains. Just thinking out print... (loud doesn't suit here) pet
suppliers may have the chain you are looking of to make runs for dogs.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tail wheel
Yep Bob - for me it addressed all of my problems.
I won't be leaving the plant hanger chains on there. I am trying to find a
supplier here in Oz that sells the right chain but it isn't as easy as it
was in the US and Canada.
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
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| Subject: | Lynn's skis, trip to Oshkosh |
Lynn:
You mentioned that the edges of your skis looked scalloped not as good as
you would like... I was thinking about that and remembered that many knives
have scalloped sides so meat or whatever won't stick to the sides of the
knife... Those scallops on the edges of your skis, while they may not look
nice, may actually improve the operation of the skis. Especially in deep
snow.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lynn's skis, trip to Oshkosh
I'm was going to try to find a similar material locally, but have
been busy building/flying and haven't followed up on it.
Yes, $70 in sheathing material is just about right. That's about what
I paid for all the sheathing material I used in the present skis.
I'd rather not splice if I could help it, and I think I could shorten
by 6" without too much difficulty...maybe by widening by an inch or
so, (which would still fit within the 24" width of a 4-way split of
the 4' x 10' sheet) and still retain the area that I have now.
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely tailwheel |
Aircraft spruce has the chain.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/comp_springs.php
You can order just the chains, but yer gonna pay alot more for shipping than the
chain itself.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225804#225804
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| Subject: | Re: Lynn's skis, trip to Oshkosh |
you want a perfect edge, use a sheet metal break and bend it 90 degrees, it will
relax to the perfect angle for you. That is what Airglass does for their ski's
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225808#225808
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| Subject: | Re: Tailwheel chain |
Hi Paul
I was really just looking for the same as supplied with the Kit. It is far
heavier duty than I have been able to find here and also tends to stay on
the spring far more securely than standard closed link chain
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely tailwheel |
Thanks Leonard
Gary Algate
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