Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:55 AM - Re: Pictures of flying fun (Tom Jones)
2. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (Dennis Golden)
3. 08:40 AM - Re: New Sport Pilot is 70! (Lynn Matteson)
4. 08:53 AM - Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (JetPilot)
5. 09:37 AM - Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (akflyer)
6. 09:38 AM - My new Canop/Wing covers! Pictures. (815TL)
7. 10:04 AM - Re: My new Canop/Wing covers! Pictures. (Weiss Richard)
8. 10:11 AM - Re: My new Canop/Wing covers! Pictures. (815TL)
9. 10:31 AM - Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (JetPilot)
10. 10:52 AM - Re: checking spark (JetPilot)
11. 05:57 PM - Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (wingnut)
12. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
13. 06:30 PM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (Lynn Matteson)
14. 06:44 PM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
15. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (Larry Huntley)
16. 07:30 PM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/Weather/Oshkosh (Lynn Matteson)
17. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/Weather/Oshkosh (patrick reilly)
18. 09:13 PM - Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (av8rps)
19. 09:13 PM - Re: What is it with these people......? (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
20. 11:46 PM - Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (akflyer)
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| Subject: | Re: Pictures of flying fun |
> Took these Friday of the Henrys Fork of the Snake River and the failed Teton
Dam site. Thought you all might enjoy them.
>
> Dee Young
Nice pictures Dee. I remember when that Teton dam failed. That was quite the
deal. I believe thats the spillway still intact at left center in your picture.
do not archive
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226148#226148
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
av8rps wrote:
>
> Guy,
>
> I'm not following what you mean. What I meant about the flaperon change was that
in order to have a 26 foot wingspan Kitfox I will need to cut off a whole
bay's worth of flaperon so it matches up with the shorter span wing. I do have
a spare set of flaperons laying around that I can cut down for this use, but
would really prefer to be able to just slide on a flaperon extension like I would
the wing extension whenver I want a long full span wing. It would be much
easier and quicker to attach the flaperon extension (if possible) rather than
having to change both flaperons back and forth whenever the wing extensions
are removed or installed.
>
> I'm wide open for any suggestions or ideas for an easily removed and installed
flaperon extension?
>
> Paul
Since you're dealing with a control surface, aren't you concerned about
the possibility of flutter? They changed the design of the mass balance
for the Speedster because of this.
>> Paul, I'd think hard about figuring out how to get the flaperons
>> back. (Maybe a slide-in flaperon extension too.) I'd hate to fly a
>> long-wing or Speedster with "inboard" flaperons.
>> Guy Buchanan
>> San Diego, CA
Dennis M IV Speedster (Someday)
--
Dennis Golden
Golden Consulting Services, Inc.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: New Sport Pilot is 70! |
I rigged up a parachute and camera and timer, tossed it out the
window then dove to come up beneath it at just the right time....MAN,
I wish! : ) Bonnie Kratz, of EAA's Photography Staff made all the
plane-to-plane shots, as well as the shot that opens the article, on
the left-hand page. The others I shot using a tripod and self-timer.
In the magazine itself, there are photo credits, but maybe they don't
show up well in the on-line article...I'll have to look it up. I
didn't know there was an on-line article posted.
That plan-to-plane stuff is fun, but a bit "puckering" having to be
so close to the lead plane. They would call out directions like,
"Move in 10 feet closer, and 5 feet down." (Are you sure you don't
want me 8- 1/2 feet closer, and 4 feet down?....as if I could!)
Oops, page 5? In the magazine there are 6 pages numbered 21-25, so
I'm really not sure which picture you mean, but all flying shots were
done by Bonnie.
About the time the article came out, I received in the mail, a DVD of
all the shots that she took that day...maybe 75 in all...on the
ground and in the air. They had me take off first, then they came up
behind and below me, and I was told to hold my course and speed. Then
they became the lead plane and I was to follow at their direction. At
one point, they had me do a large circle to the left, while they shot
pictures....to get the sun, what little there was, at just the right
angle. We had to chase the sun across the openings in the clouds for
the best pictures. At the end of the shoot, I was told to bank
sharply off to the left and peel away, and the shoot was over.
Thanks, Paul, and thanks for pointing me in the direction of the
URL's....I've had people ask me if it was online, and I didn't know.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 21, 2009, at 10:46 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> I sure did like the article and your photos, Lynn. I read it as
> a .PDF file I found here;
>
> <http://www.sportpilot.org/magazine/feature/2007%20-%2011%20November
> %20-%20Building,%20Flying%20and%20Enjoying%20Life%20at%2070.pdf>
>
> Or as a TinyURL
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/b6ooym>
>
> How did you get that nice photo of you flying the plane taken from
> above on page 5?
>
> I enjoyed your flight training story. I remember my first solo with
> 3 full stops too.
> The airplane trimmed so different and felt so different with just
> me in it that I was
> a bit apprehensive about doing something wrong like bouncing.
>
> You sure have a nice clean looking well built KF.
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
There is very little to be gained by making your wing that short. You will increase
your roll rate, and get a smoother ride in turbulence, maybe have a bit
better handling in wind, but thats about it. The price you pay for this will
be very high.
Your imagined increase in cruise speed will most likely NOT happen. The wingspan
of an airplane does not increase the drag as much as you think and when you
shorten it you will not see an increase in speed. What you will likely do is
actually slow down your airplane by INCREASING induced drag. With a very short
wing, the angle of attack to maintain level flight can become so high that
drag is greatly increased with a shorter wing.
You will decrease your climb rate significantly. And more importantly you will
decrease you safety. With much higher speeds needed for approach and landing,
your options with an engine out will be much worse than with a longer wing
in the event of an engine disappointment. You will also reduce the number of
fields you can fly in and out of safely, hope you don't like short grass fields.
Titan added 4 feet to the length of the wingspan in their Titan Tornado Super Sport
with NO loss of speed, got an increase in climb, and decrease of stall and
approach speeds. It is a very common misconception that decreasing wingspan
of an airplane will make it faster, if it were that easy everyone would be doing
it, including most of airplane manufacturers. All this has been done, and
Kitfox has come up with about the best balance of high speed cruise and good
climb rate, and slow speed performance with the wingspan they have.
So if your idea is to go out and do aerobatics, and fly in huge winds and turbulence,
your short wing will probably be a good thing. If you think you are going
to cruise faster, and have an airplane that has good climb, and any kind
of performance at altitude, you are in for a very big disappointment.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226186#226186
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
yeah and short wing pipers don't fly either right???? The pacer clan of pipers
has alot shorter wing than a cub or 12 etc. They fly fine, in fact, I am about
an hour away from rolling one out the the hangar to fly a guy up to pick up
another one. People say the pacer is a hand full and tricky to fly... this
all brought on by people that don't get out and fly much. I can get it to fly
within 5 MPH of my avid on landing and take off, yet cruise much faster.
Paul, experiment away, you can plug the wing back in if it does not work, if it
does GREAT. You know the potential consequences of shortening the wing (faster
ground speed on TO/ landing are a given), the rest is speculation and as of
yet opinion.... and we all know that each of us has one, and what it compares
to lol.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226193#226193
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| Subject: | My new Canop/Wing covers! Pictures. |
Hi guys, I thought I would pass along some pictures of the new canopy and wing
covers for my Kitfox II.
Here is the best part, hang on to your hats. I made them. That's right, I pulled
the wives sewing machine out, and had her show me how to use it. Bought all
the fabric, the strapping, and the buckles. It took me about 15 hours or so
of work on it. I decided to go with a cotton fabric, similar to canvas, then
waterproofed it with silicone spray. If I had it to do over I might have chosen
a nylon, but it was much more expensive, and I did not know how it would
turn out.
The canopy cover, covers the windshiled, up over the top, and down over the turtle
deck. Side pannels wrap around the doors, and connect to the back part near
the turtle deck. Four 1" straps hold it in place, probably could have used
three though. When i cut it, I made it a little big, so it leaves about 2" of
the side windows exposed rught under the wing. Not a big deal, as they are
right under the wing.
The wing covers are held on by seven 1" straps. I tried with 4 straps on each,
but it was not enough. Tee covers come down over the leading edge about 4",
and completely cover the flaperon in the back.
So, if anyone needs a set of wing covers or canopy cover for a Kitfox II made up,
just let me know. I have apretty good pattern now, and am getting good with
the sewing machine. I could probably rip off a set in about 5 hours or so.
Let me know what you all think.
Andrew
815TL, Kitfox II, Rotax 582-C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226194#226194
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0071_791.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0070_111.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0069_172.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0068_103.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0067_123.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0066_115.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0065_136.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0064_162.jpg
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: My new Canop/Wing covers! Pictures. |
Andrew,
Nice workmanship. Hope your wife doesn't turn the sewing chores to
you, as you won't have time to build or fly:-)
I wonder how long the waterproofing will last when exposed to the sun
and the elements? Please keep us posted on your experience. I think
it was a good choice to go with the cotton as the nylon, when flapping
around in the wind, will take its toll on the finish.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Jan 22, 2009, at 12:37 PM, 815TL wrote:
>
> Hi guys, I thought I would pass along some pictures of the new
> canopy and wing covers for my Kitfox II.
>
>
> Here is the best part, hang on to your hats. I made them. That's
> right, I pulled the wives sewing machine out, and had her show me
> how to use it. Bought all the fabric, the strapping, and the
> buckles. It took me about 15 hours or so of work on it. I decided
> to go with a cotton fabric, similar to canvas, then waterproofed it
> with silicone spray. If I had it to do over I might have chosen a
> nylon, but it was much more expensive, and I did not know how it
> would turn out.
>
> The canopy cover, covers the windshiled, up over the top, and down
> over the turtle deck. Side pannels wrap around the doors, and
> connect to the back part near the turtle deck. Four 1" straps hold
> it in place, probably could have used three though. When i cut it,
> I made it a little big, so it leaves about 2" of the side windows
> exposed rught under the wing. Not a big deal, as they are right
> under the wing.
>
> The wing covers are held on by seven 1" straps. I tried with 4
> straps on each, but it was not enough. Tee covers come down over
> the leading edge about 4", and completely cover the flaperon in the
> back.
>
> So, if anyone needs a set of wing covers or canopy cover for a
> Kitfox II made up, just let me know. I have apretty good pattern
> now, and am getting good with the sewing machine. I could probably
> rip off a set in about 5 hours or so.
>
> Let me know what you all think.
>
> Andrew
> 815TL, Kitfox II, Rotax 582-C
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226194#226194
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0071_791.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0070_111.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0069_172.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0068_103.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0067_123.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0066_115.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0065_136.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0064_162.jpg
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: My new Canop/Wing covers! Pictures. |
Thanks Rick. Well if, she wan'ts a cover done I can do that, but I am not going
to start doinf quilts. :)
>From everything I have read on line, it sounds like the silicone will last for
about a year out in the weather. So probably a re-spray once a year will do
it. Obviously I will keep an eye on it.
Andrew
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226201#226201
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
akflyer wrote:
>
>
> yeah and short wing pipers don't fly either right???? The pacer clan of pipers
has alot shorter wing than a cub or 12 etc. They fly fine, in fact.
>
>
You are very wrong about that AKFlyer, the short wing Pipers have a horrible reputation,
and rightfully so. There is a really good reason manufacturers of modern
airplanes have not imitated these short winged Pipers, and why the short
winged pipers have not been produced in many many years and have never been copied
( Unlike the Piper Cub ). So despite your " Flawed Reasoning " and somewhat
appealing an nostalgic post relating to old pipers, what you say is just
bad information. I would hope most people here are smart enough to realize bad
information even when it is presented by some slick, smoothing talking, snake
oil salesman.
Given aerodynamic information available these days, it is a really bad idea to
clip the wings that short. Just look at the wingspans of most modern Light Sport
Aircraft today, their wings have a pretty high aspect ratio, there is a very
good reason for that.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226205#226205
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| Subject: | Re: checking spark |
Checking the spark that way is a really good way to ruin your ignition modules
very quickly. There are at least several possibilities now:
Your Ignition is wired incorrectly, which would be good because the modules would
nave been burnt out if they were not producing a spark.
You may not be seeing the spark that is there.
Or you may have burnt up your ignition modules by using a really bad and harmful
test method, in which case you would see no spark.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226208#226208
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
Wow. Posts like this are the reason I stopped reading this forum. I poke in once
in three months and I'm not disappointed. Glad to know I'm not missing much.
Thanks!
> You are very wrong about that AKFlyer, the short wing Pipers have a horrible
reputation, and rightfully so. There is a really good reason manufacturers of
modern airplanes have not imitated these short winged Pipers, and why the short
winged pipers have not been produced in many many years and have never been
copied ( Unlike the Piper Cub ). So despite your " Flawed Reasoning " and somewhat
appealing an nostalgic post relating to old pipers, what you say is just
bad information. I would hope most people here are smart enough to realize bad
information even when it is presented by some slick, smoothing talking, snake
oil salesman.
>
> Given aerodynamic information available these days, it is a really bad idea to
clip the wings that short. Just look at the wingspans of most modern Light Sport
Aircraft today, their wings have a pretty high aspect ratio, there is a very
good reason for that.
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226271#226271
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
I wish we had some way of just removing malicious content like "I would
hope most people here are smart enough to realize bad information even
when it is presented by some slick, smoothing talking, snake oil salesman.
"
What is it with these people.
Most of the list seems to be intelligent, kind and helpful and then we
get some genuinely rude members that somehow get through the screening
process.
I think if you don't agree with a comment it's your prerogative to respond
with a different view but there's no excuse for personally attacking
another list member.
It's a great forum "normally"
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
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made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
"wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
23/01/2009 12:34 PM
Please respond to
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Subject
Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox
Wow. Posts like this are the reason I stopped reading this forum. I poke
in once in three months and I'm not disappointed. Glad to know I'm not
missing much. Thanks!
> You are very wrong about that AKFlyer, the short wing Pipers have a
horrible reputation, and rightfully so. There is a really good reason
manufacturers of modern airplanes have not imitated these short winged
Pipers, and why the short winged pipers have not been produced in many
many years and have never been copied ( Unlike the Piper Cub ). So despite
your " Flawed Reasoning " and somewhat appealing an nostalgic post
relating to old pipers, what you say is just bad information. I would hope
most people here are smart enough to realize bad information even when it
is presented by some slick, smoothing talking, snake oil salesman.
>
> Given aerodynamic information available these days, it is a really bad
idea to clip the wings that short. Just look at the wingspans of most
modern Light Sport Aircraft today, their wings have a pretty high aspect
ratio, there is a very good reason for that.
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226271#226271
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
Hey, we've missed you Luis....it's not like this all the time...why,
just last week we were all enjoying talking about tailwheels, or
maybe that was just me enjoying it, while some others suffered. : )
If you're still tuned in, some of us are also "flying weekly" if not
daily. Why not tell us about some of your flying adventures...that
seems to be the hot topic.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 22, 2009, at 8:56 PM, wingnut wrote:
>
> Wow. Posts like this are the reason I stopped reading this forum. I
> poke in once in three months and I'm not disappointed. Glad to know
> I'm not missing much. Thanks!
>
>
>> You are very wrong about that AKFlyer, the short wing Pipers have
>> a horrible reputation, and rightfully so. There is a really good
>> reason manufacturers of modern airplanes have not imitated these
>> short winged Pipers, and why the short winged pipers have not been
>> produced in many many years and have never been copied ( Unlike
>> the Piper Cub ). So despite your " Flawed Reasoning " and somewhat
>> appealing an nostalgic post relating to old pipers, what you say
>> is just bad information. I would hope most people here are smart
>> enough to realize bad information even when it is presented by
>> some slick, smoothing talking, snake oil salesman.
>>
>> Given aerodynamic information available these days, it is a really
>> bad idea to clip the wings that short. Just look at the wingspans
>> of most modern Light Sport Aircraft today, their wings have a
>> pretty high aspect ratio, there is a very good reason for that.
>
>
> --------
> Luis Rodriguez
> Model IV 1200
> Rotax 912UL
> Flying Weekly
> Laurens, SC (34A)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226271#226271
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
Love that sense of humour! Why are you still up?
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
23/01/2009 01:07 PM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox
Hey, we've missed you Luis....it's not like this all the time...why,
just last week we were all enjoying talking about tailwheels, or
maybe that was just me enjoying it, while some others suffered. : )
If you're still tuned in, some of us are also "flying weekly" if not
daily. Why not tell us about some of your flying adventures...that
seems to be the hot topic.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 22, 2009, at 8:56 PM, wingnut wrote:
>
> Wow. Posts like this are the reason I stopped reading this forum. I
> poke in once in three months and I'm not disappointed. Glad to know
> I'm not missing much. Thanks!
>
>
>> You are very wrong about that AKFlyer, the short wing Pipers have
>> a horrible reputation, and rightfully so. There is a really good
>> reason manufacturers of modern airplanes have not imitated these
>> short winged Pipers, and why the short winged pipers have not been
>> produced in many many years and have never been copied ( Unlike
>> the Piper Cub ). So despite your " Flawed Reasoning " and somewhat
>> appealing an nostalgic post relating to old pipers, what you say
>> is just bad information. I would hope most people here are smart
>> enough to realize bad information even when it is presented by
>> some slick, smoothing talking, snake oil salesman.
>>
>> Given aerodynamic information available these days, it is a really
>> bad idea to clip the wings that short. Just look at the wingspans
>> of most modern Light Sport Aircraft today, their wings have a
>> pretty high aspect ratio, there is a very good reason for that.
>
>
> --------
> Luis Rodriguez
> Model IV 1200
> Rotax 912UL
> Flying Weekly
> Laurens, SC (34A)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226271#226271
>
>
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
Mike,
I need to know all I can learn about the short wing Piper's horrible
reputation . I have about 3000 hrs in 5 different short wing Pipers. My wife
and I have been in every state except Hawaii and most of Canada in the 27
yrs we have been flying our Tripacer N8835D . I have a few hundred hrs in
Vagabonds and probably 50 or so in a Pacer. Maybe I should be more careful.
Do you think I am putting my wife and myself in danger? I had no idea. Thank
you for the warning. You may have saved Leonard's life also,
Whew.
Larry Huntley,Kitfox 4-1200, Soob, AMAX redrive 500+hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox
>
>
> akflyer wrote:
>>
>>
>> yeah and short wing pipers don't fly either right???? The pacer clan of
>> pipers has alot shorter wing than a cub or 12 etc. They fly fine, in
>> fact.
>>
>>
>
>
> You are very wrong about that AKFlyer, the short wing Pipers have a
> horrible reputation, and rightfully so. There is a really good reason
> manufacturers of modern airplanes have not imitated these short winged
> Pipers, and why the short winged pipers have not been produced in many
> many years and have never been copied ( Unlike the Piper Cub ). So
> despite your " Flawed Reasoning " and somewhat appealing an nostalgic post
> relating to old pipers, what you say is just bad information. I would
> hope most people here are smart enough to realize bad information even
> when it is presented by some slick, smoothing talking, snake oil salesman.
>
> Given aerodynamic information available these days, it is a really bad
> idea to clip the wings that short. Just look at the wingspans of most
> modern Light Sport Aircraft today, their wings have a pretty high aspect
> ratio, there is a very good reason for that.
>
> Mike
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/Weather/Oshkosh |
Just gettin' ready for sack time, Gary. I went down to the hangar to
see if the snow/ice had melted off the skis and brakes after a slushy
landing and takeoff on a lake...more later if anybody's interested in
hearing of stupidity while flying...and fog was beginning to form due
to a fast temp drop after a warm day. All this to say I won't be
getting out of here real early for my trip to Oshkosh tomorrow if
this fog becomes real thick.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 22, 2009, at 9:43 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Love that sense of humour! Why are you still up?
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 23/01/2009 01:07 PM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox
>
>
>
> Hey, we've missed you Luis....it's not like this all the time...why,
> just last week we were all enjoying talking about tailwheels, or
> maybe that was just me enjoying it, while some others suffered. : )
>
> If you're still tuned in, some of us are also "flying weekly" if not
> daily. Why not tell us about some of your flying adventures...that
> seems to be the hot topic.
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 22, 2009, at 8:56 PM, wingnut wrote:
>
> <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
> >
> > Wow. Posts like this are the reason I stopped reading this forum. I
> > poke in once in three months and I'm not disappointed. Glad to know
> > I'm not missing much. Thanks!
> >
> >
> >> You are very wrong about that AKFlyer, the short wing Pipers have
> >> a horrible reputation, and rightfully so. There is a really good
> >> reason manufacturers of modern airplanes have not imitated these
> >> short winged Pipers, and why the short winged pipers have not been
> >> produced in many many years and have never been copied ( Unlike
> >> the Piper Cub ). So despite your " Flawed Reasoning " and somewhat
> >> appealing an nostalgic post relating to old pipers, what you say
> >> is just bad information. I would hope most people here are smart
> >> enough to realize bad information even when it is presented by
> >> some slick, smoothing talking, snake oil salesman.
> >>
> >> Given aerodynamic information available these days, it is a really
> >> bad idea to clip the wings that short. Just look at the wingspans
> >> of most modern Light Sport Aircraft today, their wings have a
> >> pretty high aspect ratio, there is a very good reason for that.
> >
> >
> > --------
> > Luis Rodriguez
> > Model IV 1200
> > Rotax 912UL
> > Flying Weekly
> > Laurens, SC (34A)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226271#226271
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/Weather/Oshkosh |
Lynn=2C If for some reason you need to put down in Rockford at 1C8=2C Cotto
nwood airport ( I think we have plenty of snow still) feel free to give me
a call. You are welcome to stay over night at my place. 630-292 6117 is my
cell phone.Pat ReillyMod 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL> From: lynnmatt@jps.ne
t> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/Weather/Oshkos
h> Date: Thu=2C 22 Jan 2009 22:29:35 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com>
st gettin' ready for sack time=2C Gary. I went down to the hangar to > see
if the snow/ice had melted off the skis and brakes after a slushy > landing
and takeoff on a lake...more later if anybody's interested in > hearing of
stupidity while flying...and fog was beginning to form due > to a fast tem
p drop after a warm day. All this to say I won't be > getting out of here r
eal early for my trip to Oshkosh tomorrow if > this fog becomes real thick.
> > Lynn Matteson> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062
=2C 600.2 hrs> Sensenich 62x46> Electroair direct-fire ignition system> New
skis done and flying> do not archive> > > > On Jan 22=2C 2009=2C at 9:43 P
M=2C gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:> > >> > Love that sense of humour! Why
are you still up?> >> > Gary Algate> > SMC=2C Exploration> > Office Phone:
+61 8 8276 7655> >> >> > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended onl
y for the > > addressees. Any review=2C dissemination=2C distribution=2C or
copying of > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error=2C
> > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > >
message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > > any
errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > > arise as
a result of the e-mail transmission.> > =93This year=2C instead of sending
you a Christmas card in the mail=2C we > > have made a contribution to UNIC
EF Australia. We wish you a safe > > and happy Christmas".> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> > Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>> > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com> > 23/01/2009 01:07 PM> > Please respond to> > kitfox-list
@matronics.com> >> > To> > kitfox-list@matronics.com> > cc> > Subject> > Re
: Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox> >> >> >> >> >> > --> Kitfox
-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>> >> > Hey=2C we'v
e missed you Luis....it's not like this all the time...why=2C> > just last
week we were all enjoying talking about tailwheels=2C or> > maybe that was
just me enjoying it=2C while some others suffered. : )> >> > If you're stil
l tuned in=2C some of us are also "flying weekly" if not> > daily. Why not
tell us about some of your flying adventures...that> > seems to be the hot
topic.> >> >> > Lynn Matteson> > Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> > Jabi
ru 2200=2C #2062=2C 600.2 hrs> > Sensenich 62x46> > Electroair direct-fire
ignition system> > New skis done and flying> > do not archive> >> >> >> > O
n Jan 22=2C 2009=2C at 8:56 PM=2C wingnut wrote:> >> > > --> Kitfox-List me
ssage posted by: "wingnut" > > <wingnut@spamarrest.com>> > >> > > Wow. Post
s like this are the reason I stopped reading this forum. I> > > poke in onc
e in three months and I'm not disappointed. Glad to know> > > I'm not missi
ng much. Thanks!> > >> > >> > >> You are very wrong about that AKFlyer=2C t
he short wing Pipers have> > >> a horrible reputation=2C and rightfully so.
There is a really good> > >> reason manufacturers of modern airplanes have
not imitated these> > >> short winged Pipers=2C and why the short winged p
ipers have not been> > >> produced in many many years and have never been c
opied ( Unlike> > >> the Piper Cub ). So despite your " Flawed Reasoning "
and somewhat> > >> appealing an nostalgic post relating to old pipers=2C wh
at you say> > >> is just bad information. I would hope most people here are
smart> > >> enough to realize bad information even when it is presented by
> > >> some slick=2C smoothing talking=2C snake oil salesman.> > >>> > >> G
iven aerodynamic information available these days=2C it is a really> > >> b
ad idea to clip the wings that short. Just look at the wingspans> > >> of m
ost modern Light Sport Aircraft today=2C their wings have a> > >> pretty hi
gh aspect ratio=2C there is a very good reason for that.> > >> > >> > > ---
-----> > > Luis Rodriguez> > > Model IV 1200> > > Rotax 912UL> > > Flying W
eekly> > > Laurens=2C SC (34A)> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Read this topic onl
ine here:> > >> > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226271#22
6271> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
www.matronics.com/contribution _- > > ============
=======================> > >
================> > >
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
C'mon gang, let's keep this thread civil and productive. And let's face it, until
one of us actually tries a 26 ft wing mod, none of us really knows what the
results will be.
I don't want to create big debates about all this, so maybe if I can better explain
my logic it will help everyone to better understand why I believe this will
work as I think it will;
#1 - When Skystar clipped the standard Kitfox wing 3 ft to create the Speedster,
they found they increased the stall speed only minimally, lost very little climb
rate, but gained approximately 8-12 mph in speed. That tells me that there
is apparently still plenty of wing area for the weight of the airplane.
#2 - If you do a wing loading calculation for a 650 lb model IV with the 26 ft
wing vs a 825 lb Model 5-7 Kitfox with a full length wing, the wing loadings for
both airplanes are virtually the same assuming the same cabin and fuel load
(I used 300 lbs for the example below).
Here's my math;
Model IV w/26 ft wing @ 950 lbs -:- 107 sq ft = 8.8 lbs sq ft
Model 7 w/32 ft wing @ 1125 lbs -:- 131 sq ft = 8.6 lbs sq ft
So, a 26 ft M4 does in fact have a similar wing loading to a newer Kitfox with
the longer, full span wing. If the newer Fox had a Speedster 29' wing, it is
likely to have worse overall performance than the 26' M4.
#3 - One of the most popular homebuilts ever created is the Van's RV series. They
are not only fast long distance cruisers, but also have relatively slow stall
speeds and good short field capability considering their high top speed capability.
Statistically, an early RV-3 weighs 750 lbs empty, has a top speed
of 207 mph, a climb rate of 2050 fpm, and a stall speed of 51 mph. All that on
a measly 19 ft wing with only 90 sq ft of area. And if you look at any of the
other RV series airplanes, you will see similar information. The longest wing
they use on any of their models is 28 ft, but ironically that model has a
30+ slower top speed, a climb rate that is 1/2 that of the shorter wing models,
and a stall speed that is only 3-5 mph slower than the short wings. So much
for thinking you can't have a short wing airplane perform well for a wide speed
range. The popularity of the RV series is testimony to that, as they are
highly regarded for their excellent handling and outstanding performance.
#4 - The crude "guess-timate" I came up with for performance is based primarily
on information I took out of a book titled "Design for Flying", written by David
Thurston, a Grumman aircraft designer that is best known for having designed
the Lake Amphibian. I own a Lake Amphibian in addition to my Kitfoxes, and
after having put 900+ hours on it, I have a huge respect for Mr. Thurstons design
and engineering abilities (a Lake is a very complex, but efficient design).
So I am pretty confident my basic information and theory on this Kitfox wing
modification is reasonably well founded.
Once again, I don't mean to cause any big heated debates over this idea. I just
thought it would be neat to get some input from the group before I start cutting
spar tubes.
Paul
ps - Akflyer; I'd love to see those pics of your friends flaperon extensions.
Oh yeah, I have some time in a 135 hp and a 150 hp Pacer. In my opinion the
short wing Pipers are highly misunderstood, and underappreciated airplanes. I
think anyone that flies one long enough to understand it will learn to love it.
Incidently, our Avid/Kitfox designer Dean Wilson told me the Piper Clipper
is one of his most favorite airplanes. He just finished restoring a custom one
for himself.
--------
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226300#226300
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: What is it with these people......? |
On Thu, January 22, 2009 6:17 pm, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
> I wish we had some way of just removing malicious content like "I would
> hope most people here are smart enough to realize bad information even
> when it is presented by some slick, smoothing talking, snake oil salesman.
> "
>
> What is it with these people.
Gary, in defense of what I think was meant, I believe that was targeted at the
hypothetical inspiration for the idea of shortening wings, not meant to imply the
poster or anyone on the list.
> Most of the list seems to be intelligent, kind and helpful and then we
> get some genuinely rude members that somehow get through the screening
> process.
Part of this happens because of the medium. No speech inflection, no gestures,
no
rolling eyes, just typing and sometimes words come out too quickly.
> I think if you don't agree with a comment it's your prerogative to respond
> with a different view but there's no excuse for personally attacking
> another list member.
That is certainly a good point. We sure hacked tail wheels until about everyone
got it
figured out.
> It's a great forum "normally"
I sure do enjoy it.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
JetPilot wrote:
>
> akflyer wrote:
> >
> >
> > yeah and short wing pipers don't fly either right???? The pacer clan of pipers
has alot shorter wing than a cub or 12 etc. They fly fine, in fact.
> >
> >
>
>
> You are very wrong about that AKFlyer, the short wing Pipers have a horrible
reputation, and rightfully so. There is a really good reason manufacturers of
modern airplanes have not imitated these short winged Pipers, and why the short
winged pipers have not been produced in many many years and have never been
copied ( Unlike the Piper Cub ). So despite your " Flawed Reasoning " and somewhat
appealing an nostalgic post relating to old pipers, what you say is just
bad information. I would hope most people here are smart enough to realize
bad information even when it is presented by some slick, smoothing talking, snake
oil salesman.
>
> Given aerodynamic information available these days, it is a really bad idea to
clip the wings that short. Just look at the wingspans of most modern Light
Sport Aircraft today, their wings have a pretty high aspect ratio, there is a
very good reason for that.
>
> Mike
Snake oil Salesman, LMAO I am very sorry you can't fly, I can, do and LOVE it.
I flew 2 of them today, how about you ????? I have hundreds of hours in these and
guess what, in the hands of a person who knows how to use their feet they are
a GREAT airplane. The guy that flew up with me to get this one today one has
over 11,000 hours flying HARD CORE bush. He will do things with a cub, beaver
or turbine otter, what will scare the crap out of you AND I. He fell in love
and is now looking for one himself for his personal plane.... the long wing
piper, such as a 180 horse cub are have their place in bush flying, nothing
CERTIFIED will touch a cub for going into unimproved strips (read that big boulders
or high tundra). No one that owns a cub, that is not working it for hire
would take the planes into the places he will, and there are only a very small
handful that can follow him into the places he goes.
How many hours do you have in short wing piper??? What are YOU basing your statements
on? hearsay, or personal hardcore flying facts?????
I make my post based on my time flying one in crap you could not imagine, and I
stand VERY firm behind my statement. Tell you what, drag your butt up here and
I will take you out and show you what these planes are capable of. 8 yrs ago
I set a new personal best, one that I get to poke my chest out on... A buddy
had some friends come up from down south and wanted me to take them out flying
and show them what we do. I made the guy puke just doing what I do every day
normal flying... I dropped into a short strip and let him get out and catch
his breath... after he cleaned my plane up he shook my hand and said, well son
I have to hand it to you, I have 27,000 hrs flying everything from 152's to
747 and 20 yrs in the navy flying combat from Vietnam to Desert Storm and hundreds
of night carrier traps... I have never been so damn nervous coming into
such a short, nasty spots as you just did that it made me puke.... And what was
I flying that day.... A stock 150 hrs Pacer. I was not even going into anything
that was remotely scary to me, but it impressed the heck out of him what
could be done with the plane,as he, like you had heard horror stories about these
planes. Step away from the computer, get some bush hours in these plane,
then get back to me just how bad they are.... In the mean time, I will go burn
more sky tomorrow in a GASP nasty pacer and come back in grinning ear to ear
about how cheap I can buy one cause guys like you cant fly.
All else, sorry for the rant, but I will only post what I have personally done,
not hearsay. Pics I tooks of and from these flying death traps today will follow.
Paul, as I said in the post above, clip those wings, then post a pictures and video
of your "death trap" to hush the nay sayers.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226304#226304
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