Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:29 AM - short wing flying death traps (akflyer)
2. 01:39 AM - Re: short wing flying death traps (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
3. 03:09 AM - Found it! Avid factory video from 1990 (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
4. 03:30 AM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/Weather/Oshkosh (Lynn Matteson)
5. 05:21 AM - death traps Short Wing Piper History # Not Kitfox# (Larry Huntley)
6. 05:32 AM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/Weather/Oshkosh (Lynn Matteson)
7. 05:44 AM - Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (Catz631@aol.com)
8. 05:56 AM - Re: short wing flying death traps (John W. Hart)
9. 06:00 AM - Re: short wing flying death traps (fox5flyer)
10. 06:41 AM - Re: short wing flying death traps (akflyer)
11. 06:55 AM - Re: Re: short wing flying death traps (John W. Hart)
12. 07:08 AM - Re: death traps Short Wing Piper History # Not Kitfox# (akflyer)
13. 08:00 AM - Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (JetPilot)
14. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (mscotter@comcast.net)
15. 08:23 AM - Re: checking spark (Roger Lee)
16. 08:38 AM - Bush gear for Model IV (Francisco dcubj3)
17. 08:48 AM - Re: Re: checking spark (patrick reilly)
18. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (Guy Buchanan)
19. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (Guy Buchanan)
20. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (Lowell Fitt)
21. 09:38 AM - Re: checking spark - voltage range on tester (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
22. 09:52 AM - Re: Re: checking spark - voltage range on tester (patrick reilly)
23. 10:24 AM - trip to Oshkosh/big prep, short "flight"/ F210 Fuel meter (Lynn Matteson)
24. 10:26 AM - Aircaft weighing procedures (DanM)
25. 10:40 AM - Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (JetPilot)
26. 10:41 AM - Re: Aircaft weighing procedures (Guy Buchanan)
27. 12:13 PM - Re: Aircaft weighing procedures (kirk hull)
28. 12:23 PM - Flaperon painting (clemwehner)
29. 12:37 PM - Re: Flaperon painting (815TL)
30. 12:45 PM - Magnito/RPM wierdness. Any ideas? (815TL)
31. 12:51 PM - X-Plane test WAS: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox (Michel Verheughe)
32. 01:27 PM - Re: Aircaft weighing procedures (Noel Loveys)
33. 01:45 PM - Re: Flaperon painting (john beirne)
34. 02:25 PM - Re: Flaperon painting (Guy Buchanan)
35. 02:55 PM - Re: Flaperon painting (Cudnohufsky's)
36. 03:13 PM - Re: Magnito/RPM wierdness. Any ideas? (John W. Hart)
37. 04:08 PM - Re: Aircaft weighing procedures (Tom Jones)
38. 04:12 PM - Re: Magnito/RPM wierdness. Any ideas? (Tom Jones)
39. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Magnito/RPM wierdness. Any ideas? (Larry Huntley)
40. 05:20 PM - Re: trip to Oshkosh/big prep, short "flight"/ F210 Fuel meter (patrick reilly)
41. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: checking spark (CDE2fly@AOL.COM)
42. 06:12 PM - Turtledeck installation instructions (brentbidus@juno.com)
43. 06:39 PM - Re: oil line routing (Lowell Fitt)
44. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: checking spark (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
45. 07:03 PM - Re: Turtledeck installation instructions (jdmcbean)
46. 08:36 PM - leading edge cuffs (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
Message 1
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| Subject: | short wing flying death traps |
pics of short wing death traps.
Not great shots, I was sceered and shaking as I was flying the short wing death
traps over open water in overcast conditions, that surely, only long wings should
have ventured...
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226307#226307
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/flying_death_trap_473.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/flying_death_trap_over_frozen_water_125.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pacer_1_710.jpg
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: short wing flying death traps |
On Fri, January 23, 2009 12:28 am, akflyer wrote:
>
> pics of short wing death traps.
>
> Not great shots, I was sceered and shaking as I was flying the short wing death
traps
> over open water in overcast conditions, that surely, only long wings should have
> ventured...
I love the photos. The first one showing the quintessential ashtray prominently
on the
dash, gave me a smile.
Couple comments.
I was eye balling what was believed to be a 1958 Tri-Pacer at Renton Field last
Saturday and visually, at least it would appear that the chord length of those
short
wings was perhaps almost a foot longer than a Cherokee wing. Could that be true?
If
so, then they aren't just shortened wings as what was suggested for the KF as the
wing
loading would be increased in that case.
I don't believe Piper ever produced a Pacer. I think all of them are converted
Tri-Pacers. Is that true?
In the early 60's Piper had a 3 place small short wing tricycle gear plane called
a
Colt. Are there any of those converted to Conventional Gear flying? Seems to me
that
might be a pretty useful bush plane (converted Colt).
Is there an STC for those conversions from Tricycle to Conventional gear?
Personally, a Pacer has far greater visual appeal than it did in its former life
as a
tricycle gear airplane.
The reason I ask is it would appear to me that a new SuperCub is pushing $200k
with a
200HP engine and spending the price of a house on an airplane is out of the question
for many would be recreational bush flyers. (sage brush and river banks are bush
aren't they?)
Cub Crafters has some for sale
<http://www.cubcrafters.com/sales/home.aspx>
but in contrast, 45 to 50 year old Super Cubs are a bit cheaper
<http://www.supercub.org/photoclass/showcat.php?cat=4>
Here's a real nice article with links to lots of Bush planes. This page features
the
venerable Super Cub.
Check out this 12 second video of a SuperCub
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPSElw8qEsI&NR=1>
That's what you're talking about, right?
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 3
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| Subject: | Found it! Avid factory video from 1990 |
The pilot in the film is Jim Metzger, who, the film director says "could fly an
ironing board if he had the right engine."
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHqxTxyLjys>
Pretty cool 10 minutes of demo and scenery.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/Weather/Oshkosh |
Thanks for the offer, Pat...I'll put your number into my cell. I'm
planning on leaving here about 10-11 am Eastern, and overnighting as
close to OSH/Pioneer as possible. My plan is to get into Pioneer as
early as they open if possible, then depart about their Noontime (1pm
Michigan time) and making the 4 hr trip home to arrive about an hour
before dark falls on the land...there is supposed to be a pretty good
16 mile/knot wind from the northwest which should help with the trip
home. But if anything changes, I'll let you know.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 22, 2009, at 11:00 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, If for some reason you need to put down in Rockford at 1C8,
> Cottonwood airport ( I think we have plenty of snow still) feel
> free to give me a call. You are welcome to stay over night at my
> place. 630-292 6117 is my cell phone.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
>
> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/Weather/
> Oshkosh
> > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:29:35 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > Just gettin' ready for sack time, Gary. I went down to the hangar to
> > see if the snow/ice had melted off the skis and brakes after a
> slushy
> > landing and takeoff on a lake...more later if anybody's
> interested in
> > hearing of stupidity while flying...and fog was beginning to form
> due
> > to a fast temp drop after a warm day. All this to say I won't be
> > getting out of here real early for my trip to Oshkosh tomorrow if
> > this fog becomes real thick.
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > New skis done and flying
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 22, 2009, at 9:43 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Love that sense of humour! Why are you still up?
> > >
> > > Gary Algate
> > > SMC, Exploration
> > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
> > >
> > >
> > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in
> error,
> > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> > > This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the
> mail, we
> > > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> > > and happy Christmas".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > > 23/01/2009 01:07 PM
> > > Please respond to
> > > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > >
> > > To
> > > kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > > cc
> > > Subject
> > > Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > >
> > > Hey, we've missed you Luis....it's not like this all the
> time...why,
> > > just last week we were all enjoying talking about tailwheels, or
> > > maybe that was just me enjoying it, while some others
> suffered. : )
> > >
> > > If you're still tuned in, some of us are also "flying weekly"
> if not
> > > daily. Why not tell us about some of your flying adventures...that
> > > seems to be the hot topic.
> > >
> > >
> > > Lynn Matteson
> > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> > > Sensenich 62x46
> > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > > New skis done and flying
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 22, 2009, at 8:56 PM, wingnut wrote:
> > >
> > > <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
> > > >
> > > > Wow. Posts like this are the reason I stopped reading this
> forum. I
> > > > poke in once in three months and I'm not disappointed. Glad
> to know
> > > > I'm not missing much. Thanks!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> You are very wrong about that AKFlyer, the short wing Pipers
> have
> > > >> a horrible reputation, and rightfully so. There is a really
> good
> > > >> reason manufacturers of modern airplanes have not imitated
> these
> > > >> short winged Pipers, and why the short winged pipers have
> not been
> > > >> produced in many many years and have never been copied ( Unlike
> > > >> the Piper Cub ). So despite your " Flawed Reasoning " and
> somewhat
> > > >> appealing an nostalgic post relating to old pipers, what you
> say
> > > >> is just bad information. I would hope most people here are
> smart
> > > >> enough to realize bad information even when it is presented by
> > > >> some slick, smoothing talking, snake oil salesman.
> > > >>
> > > >> Given aerodynamic information available these days, it is a
> really
> > > >> bad idea to clip the wings that short. Just look at the
> wingspans
> > > >> of most modern Light Sport Aircraft today, their wings have a
> > > >> pretty high aspect ratio, there is a very good reason for that.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------
> > > > Luis Rodriguez
> > > > Model IV 1200
> > > > Rotax 912UL
> > > > Flying Weekly
> > > > Laurens, SC (34A)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Read this topic online here:
> > > >
> > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226271#226271
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> > > ======================
> > _====
> >
> >
> >
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
Message 5
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| Subject: | death traps Short Wing Piper History # Not Kitfox# |
FWIIW,
Piper began the SW line with the 1947 PA-15 Vagabond ,2place side by
side,single stick controls ,TW ,3'-4' cut off the butt of each (J-3 ) wing.
Ailerons were left full length. Next was PA-16 Clipper. Pretty much same
plane,4 place,more engine. 3rd was the PA-17. This was a Vagabond with dual
controls and some other updates. The PA22 Pacer followed that with 4 places
and a yoke ,flaps,and more engine. Next model was the PA-22 Tripacer. It had
the nose wheel to compete with the C-172 and up to a 160hp Lyc. It will out
perform the C-172 in pretty much every catagory except room inside.The back
seats were eliminated from the Tripacer and a 108 hp engine mounted,no
flaps. This is the PA-22 Colt. It was built for a trainer and quite a few of
them are still used as such. Last SW was build in 63 or 64. (unless you
consider the Cherokee which,I believe, is shorter yet.
The Colt was a two place. Maybe had a childs seat available for the bag
compartment,but not normal.
Many Colts and Tripacers have been converted to tailwheel.Univair hold the
STC at least for the Tripacer.
Larry Huntley 4-1200 Soob, AMAX
drive, 500+hrs ( 1958 PA-22 Tripacer 160 flying and two Vagabond projects
in the shop and barn)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul@eucleides.com>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: short wing flying death traps
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Fri, January 23, 2009 12:28 am, akflyer wrote:
>>
>> pics of short wing death traps.
>>
>> Not great shots, I was sceered and shaking as I was flying the short wing
>> death traps
>> over open water in overcast conditions, that surely, only long wings
>> should have
>> ventured...
>
> I love the photos. The first one showing the quintessential ashtray
> prominently on the
> dash, gave me a smile.
>
> Couple comments.
>
> I was eye balling what was believed to be a 1958 Tri-Pacer at Renton Field
> last
> Saturday and visually, at least it would appear that the chord length of
> those short
> wings was perhaps almost a foot longer than a Cherokee wing. Could that be
> true? If
> so, then they aren't just shortened wings as what was suggested for the KF
> as the wing
> loading would be increased in that case.
>
> I don't believe Piper ever produced a Pacer. I think all of them are
> converted
> Tri-Pacers. Is that true?
>
> In the early 60's Piper had a 3 place small short wing tricycle gear plane
> called a
> Colt. Are there any of those converted to Conventional Gear flying? Seems
> to me that
> might be a pretty useful bush plane (converted Colt).
>
> Is there an STC for those conversions from Tricycle to Conventional gear?
>
> Personally, a Pacer has far greater visual appeal than it did in its
> former life as a
> tricycle gear airplane.
>
> The reason I ask is it would appear to me that a new SuperCub is pushing
> $200k with a
> 200HP engine and spending the price of a house on an airplane is out of
> the question
> for many would be recreational bush flyers. (sage brush and river banks
> are bush
> aren't they?)
>
> Cub Crafters has some for sale
> <http://www.cubcrafters.com/sales/home.aspx>
> but in contrast, 45 to 50 year old Super Cubs are a bit cheaper
> <http://www.supercub.org/photoclass/showcat.php?cat=4>
> Here's a real nice article with links to lots of Bush planes. This page
> features the
> venerable Super Cub.
>
> Check out this 12 second video of a SuperCub
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPSElw8qEsI&NR=1>
> That's what you're talking about, right?
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
7:08 AM
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/Weather/Oshkosh |
I already had it in there, Pat....: )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Jan 23, 2009, at 6:30 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> Thanks for the offer, Pat...I'll put your number into my cell. I'm
> planning on leaving here about 10-11 am Eastern, and overnighting
> as close to OSH/Pioneer as possible. My plan is to get into Pioneer
> as early as they open if possible, then depart about their Noontime
> (1pm Michigan time) and making the 4 hr trip home to arrive about
> an hour before dark falls on the land...there is supposed to be a
> pretty good 16 mile/knot wind from the northwest which should help
> with the trip home. But if anything changes, I'll let you know.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 22, 2009, at 11:00 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
>
>> Lynn, If for some reason you need to put down in Rockford at 1C8,
>> Cottonwood airport ( I think we have plenty of snow still) feel
>> free to give me a call. You are welcome to stay over night at my
>> place. 630-292 6117 is my cell phone.
>>
>> Pat Reilly
>> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
>> Rockford, IL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
>> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox/
>> Weather/Oshkosh
>> > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:29:35 -0500
>> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> >
>> >
>> > Just gettin' ready for sack time, Gary. I went down to the
>> hangar to
>> > see if the snow/ice had melted off the skis and brakes after a
>> slushy
>> > landing and takeoff on a lake...more later if anybody's
>> interested in
>> > hearing of stupidity while flying...and fog was beginning to
>> form due
>> > to a fast temp drop after a warm day. All this to say I won't be
>> > getting out of here real early for my trip to Oshkosh tomorrow if
>> > this fog becomes real thick.
>> >
>> > Lynn Matteson
>> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
>> > Sensenich 62x46
>> > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> > New skis done and flying
>> > do not archive
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Jan 22, 2009, at 9:43 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Love that sense of humour! Why are you still up?
>> > >
>> > > Gary Algate
>> > > SMC, Exploration
>> > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
>> > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or
>> copying of
>> > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended
>> > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in
>> error,
>> > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete
>> the
>> > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability
>> for
>> > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
>> > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
>> > > This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the
>> mail, we
>> > > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
>> > > and happy Christmas".
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>> > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> > > 23/01/2009 01:07 PM
>> > > Please respond to
>> > > kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> > >
>> > > To
>> > > kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> > > cc
>> > > Subject
>> > > Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>> > >
>> > > Hey, we've missed you Luis....it's not like this all the
>> time...why,
>> > > just last week we were all enjoying talking about tailwheels, or
>> > > maybe that was just me enjoying it, while some others
>> suffered. : )
>> > >
>> > > If you're still tuned in, some of us are also "flying weekly"
>> if not
>> > > daily. Why not tell us about some of your flying
>> adventures...that
>> > > seems to be the hot topic.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Lynn Matteson
>> > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
>> > > Sensenich 62x46
>> > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> > > New skis done and flying
>> > > do not archive
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Jan 22, 2009, at 8:56 PM, wingnut wrote:
>> > >
>> > > <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>> > > >
>> > > > Wow. Posts like this are the reason I stopped reading this
>> forum. I
>> > > > poke in once in three months and I'm not disappointed. Glad
>> to know
>> > > > I'm not missing much. Thanks!
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> You are very wrong about that AKFlyer, the short wing
>> Pipers have
>> > > >> a horrible reputation, and rightfully so. There is a really
>> good
>> > > >> reason manufacturers of modern airplanes have not imitated
>> these
>> > > >> short winged Pipers, and why the short winged pipers have
>> not been
>> > > >> produced in many many years and have never been copied
>> ( Unlike
>> > > >> the Piper Cub ). So despite your " Flawed Reasoning " and
>> somewhat
>> > > >> appealing an nostalgic post relating to old pipers, what
>> you say
>> > > >> is just bad information. I would hope most people here are
>> smart
>> > > >> enough to realize bad information even when it is presented by
>> > > >> some slick, smoothing talking, snake oil salesman.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Given aerodynamic information available these days, it is a
>> really
>> > > >> bad idea to clip the wings that short. Just look at the
>> wingspans
>> > > >> of most modern Light Sport Aircraft today, their wings have a
>> > > >> pretty high aspect ratio, there is a very good reason for
>> that.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --------
>> > > > Luis Rodriguez
>> > > > Model IV 1200
>> > > > Rotax 912UL
>> > > > Flying Weekly
>> > > > Laurens, SC (34A)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Read this topic online here:
>> > > >
>> > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226271#226271
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
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>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > www.matronics.com/contribution _-
>> > > ======================
>> > _====
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>> contribution_-
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
Mike,
Where do you come up with your " facts" . I think you probably invent them.
The short wing Pipers were absolutely fabulous aircraft and had no bad
reputation at all. They have a higher sink rate yes but they fly great, are very
economical, fast,etc. They were discontinued because of the economic times and
changes in aircraft models. Have you ever flown one? They are the most bang for
the buck you can find in a small production aircraft
If I am not mistaken, I believe Grummans,Rv's,Kr's,etc all have short wings
and are also fine aircraft
Dick Maddux
Pensacola,Fl
**************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay
up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023)
Message 8
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| Subject: | short wing flying death traps |
Paul,
TCDS for Piper Pacer PA-20 attached.
The Colt has the same model designation as the Tripacer, PA-22, which are
tricycle gear versions of the Pacer (Different TCDS). There are STC's for
gear conversions to conventional gear for the PA 22 Series. See:
www.trimmeraviation.com/gear.html
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz -
Merlin GT
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 3:37 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: short wing flying death traps
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Fri, January 23, 2009 12:28 am, akflyer wrote:
>
Couple comments.
(Snip)
I don't believe Piper ever produced a Pacer. I think all of them are
converted
Tri-Pacers. Is that true?
In the early 60's Piper had a 3 place small short wing tricycle gear plane
called a
Colt. Are there any of those converted to Conventional Gear flying? Seems to
me that
might be a pretty useful bush plane (converted Colt).
Is there an STC for those conversions from Tricycle to Conventional gear?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: short wing flying death traps |
Paul Said:
"I don't believe Piper ever produced a Pacer. I think all of them are
converted
Tri-Pacers. Is that true?"
Great informative post, Paul, but I'm pretty sure that it isn't true.
Piper produced PA20s, which is actually a 4 place Vagabond. However,
there are converted Tripacers which are called PA22/20s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-20_Pacer
My first airplane was a Tripacer and after my first 100 hours in spam
can Cessna 150s and 172s, the Tripacer with it's 160hp was almost scary
to me. It wasn't how it flew, which was different, but all of that
power! However I quickly got used to it and loved every minute I put on
that thing. I also owned a PA17 Vagabond with A65 that was an excellent
flyer and the only reason I moved on to the Kitfoxes was because the
Vagabond's wings didn't fold. There is a huge Short Wing Piper Club
with an enormous archive of resources to anyone who might be interested
in going that route. Also, the Colt DOES make a good tail dragger and
looks pretty cool too. (Same link as above) It just doesn't have the
internal space and useful load that the PA22/20 has.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: short wing flying death traps |
Paul,
Deke glad you are still with us you crazy bugger, from what I am told you should
have killed your fool self in that pacer, dontcha know how dangerous they are?
And you hit it on the head. The colt is a 2 place with no flaps. That is actually
what I picked up for my buddy yesterday. it is a 1961 and is a pretty darn
clean bird.
Now for a bit of interesting FACTS.
I flew a 150 hp pa22/20 up with another friend then he flew that one back while
i flew the new Colt home. The colt is 108 hp. We took off with the same fuel
load and we both weight about the same. I figured the 150 hp would be in super
econo cruise so I could keep up. At 2350 - 2400 RPM (both planes same RPM)
we were dead even showing 115 indicated.
John, Funny you pull up Eddie Trimmers site.... That is the hangar I pulled the
plane into to thaw it out yesterday and he is a Pacer FREAK. He has 5 or 6
STC's for Pacer mods and has rebuilt many of them, very interesting guy to talk
to with some cool mods. The best being the Dual sea plane doors up front and
a 180 hp conversion.
Univair has an STC for the tail dragger conversion also.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226345#226345
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: short wing flying death traps |
Leonard,
I've known Eddie for more than 30 years. I used to live up Hatcher Pass
Road about 10 miles east of the Willow Airport.
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 8:41 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: short wing flying death traps
Paul,
Deke glad you are still with us you crazy bugger, from what I am told you
should have killed your fool self in that pacer, dontcha know how dangerous
they are?
And you hit it on the head. The colt is a 2 place with no flaps. That is
actually what I picked up for my buddy yesterday. it is a 1961 and is a
pretty darn clean bird.
Now for a bit of interesting FACTS.
I flew a 150 hp pa22/20 up with another friend then he flew that one back
while i flew the new Colt home. The colt is 108 hp. We took off with the
same fuel load and we both weight about the same. I figured the 150 hp
would be in super econo cruise so I could keep up. At 2350 - 2400 RPM (both
planes same RPM) we were dead even showing 115 indicated.
John, Funny you pull up Eddie Trimmers site.... That is the hangar I pulled
the plane into to thaw it out yesterday and he is a Pacer FREAK. He has 5
or 6 STC's for Pacer mods and has rebuilt many of them, very interesting guy
to talk to with some cool mods. The best being the Dual sea plane doors up
front and a 180 hp conversion.
Univair has an STC for the tail dragger conversion also.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: death traps Short Wing Piper History # Not Kitfox# |
jimminy christmas Larry, three of them, you sure are beggin for a dirt nap with
that much scary iron in the stable (smile). I think we need to drop this line
of posts, we may drive the prices up if word gets out that these machines actually
fly safely!
Nice history lesson, and :spot on: with the FACTS
Off to go take the new owner up in his Colt so he can scare me...
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226352#226352
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
av8rps wrote:
> Hi Gang,
>
> Oh yeah, I'm basing my rationale for doing this on what Avid did back in the
early days when they took their 29+ foot Avid STOL wing off their airplane and
made a new semi-symmetrical airfoil with only a 24 foot span.
>
> Paul S
Paul,
There is a big difference between making an entirely new wing, with a different
airfoil optimized to be shorter, and just cutting the ends off of a wing that
is designed to be much longer. You should think about this hard before you think
that just cutting the ends off the wing will make it a lot faster. Did it
ever occur to you that the new airfoil may have had more to do with the Avid's
speed increase than just reducing the span ?
Changing airfoil AND span is far different than just cutting the ends off of a
Kitfox wing. Good luck with that, but you are in for a really big dissapointment.
Dick Maddux,
Maybe you like short wing Pipers, but most people did not. Cessna kicked their
butts with Higher aspect radio and longer span 150's and 172's. Much more importantly
to those considering modifying a Kitfox, they should look at moder
LSA aircraft design, which is more comparable to a Kitfox, and has almost universally
gone towards longer span, higher aspect ratio wings. There is a very
good reason for this, and that is a FACT.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226360#226360
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
Hey Paul, just a thought, but this might be a good application for Michel's kitfox
model in X-plane. Perhaps if somebody sweet-talked him a little bit he'd
be willing to make a copy of his kitfox model with the shortened wing that you're
interested in and then compare the simulated performance of the two. X-plane
is a reasonably accurate simulation tool and especially with having two different
models to compare and contrast (one with regular wing and one with shortened)
he could get a good idea of the relative differences between the two.
Just a thought. Like others have pointed out the real proof won't come til it's
actually been flown in this configuration, but this simulation could provide
some additional data points for consideration. I am not an aerodynamicist, but
in my engineer's brain your slow speed handling and climb performance would
probably drop off slowly as you decrease span up until some minimum span is reached
and then the decline would accelerate rapidly. Hope that makes sense.
Mark Scott
Elkton, MD
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "av8rps" <paul676@tds.net>
>
> C'mon gang, let's keep this thread civil and productive. And let's face it,
> until one of us actually tries a 26 ft wing mod, none of us really knows what
> the results will be.
>
> I don't want to create big debates about all this, so maybe if I can better
> explain my logic it will help everyone to better understand why I believe this
> will work as I think it will;
>
> #1 - When Skystar clipped the standard Kitfox wing 3 ft to create the Speedster,
> they found they increased the stall speed only minimally, lost very little climb
> rate, but gained approximately 8-12 mph in speed. That tells me that there is
> apparently still plenty of wing area for the weight of the airplane.
>
> #2 - If you do a wing loading calculation for a 650 lb model IV with the 26 ft
> wing vs a 825 lb Model 5-7 Kitfox with a full length wing, the wing loadings
for
> both airplanes are virtually the same assuming the same cabin and fuel load (I
> used 300 lbs for the example below).
>
> Here's my math;
> Model IV w/26 ft wing @ 950 lbs -:- 107 sq ft = 8.8 lbs sq ft
> Model 7 w/32 ft wing @ 1125 lbs -:- 131 sq ft = 8.6 lbs sq ft
>
> So, a 26 ft M4 does in fact have a similar wing loading to a newer Kitfox with
> the longer, full span wing. If the newer Fox had a Speedster 29' wing, it is
> likely to have worse overall performance than the 26' M4.
>
> #3 - One of the most popular homebuilts ever created is the Van's RV series.
> They are not only fast long distance cruisers, but also have relatively slow
> stall speeds and good short field capability considering their high top speed
> capability. Statistically, an early RV-3 weighs 750 lbs empty, has a top speed
> of 207 mph, a climb rate of 2050 fpm, and a stall speed of 51 mph. All that
on
> a measly 19 ft wing with only 90 sq ft of area. And if you look at any of the
> other RV series airplanes, you will see similar information. The longest wing
> they use on any of their models is 28 ft, but ironically that model has a 30+
> slower top speed, a climb rate that is 1/2 that of the shorter wing models,
and
> a stall speed that is only 3-5 mph slower than the short wings. So much for
> thinking you can't have a short wing airplane perform well for a wide speed
> range. The popularity of the RV series is testimony to that, as they are highly
> regarded for their excellent handling and out!
> standing performance.
>
> #4 - The crude "guess-timate" I came up with for performance is based primarily
> on information I took out of a book titled "Design for Flying", written by David
> Thurston, a Grumman aircraft designer that is best known for having designed
the
> Lake Amphibian. I own a Lake Amphibian in addition to my Kitfoxes, and after
> having put 900+ hours on it, I have a huge respect for Mr. Thurstons design
and
> engineering abilities (a Lake is a very complex, but efficient design). So I
am
> pretty confident my basic information and theory on this Kitfox wing
> modification is reasonably well founded.
>
> Once again, I don't mean to cause any big heated debates over this idea. I just
> thought it would be neat to get some input from the group before I start cutting
> spar tubes.
>
> Paul
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| Subject: | Re: checking spark |
Hi Mike,
That is why I like using my tester. You do not disconnect anything. Just run the
engine as normal and hold the tester by the wire. You can even move it along
the length of wire and it will detect a break.
Just another diagnostic tool to toss in your bag.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226364#226364
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| Subject: | Bush gear for Model IV |
Hi!
In Kitfox Aircraft "parts and Accesories Catalog" you can find "Bush Gear
for Kitfox IV" (pag 33) (attached photo)
I=B4d like to know if someone of this forum was installed in aircraft.
This gear works into KF IV with Continental O-200 engine?
Send me opinions, and I`d like to receive aircraft photos. These photos w
ill be very useful to me. I=B4m very interested.
Tks a lot Mr. John McBean for support.
FD
Brazil
www.dcubj3.com.br
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: checking spark |
Roger=2C OK=2C I am sold. I Googled up the Greenlee tester. Yours (thanks f
or the picture) is 50-1000 volts. Greenlee has 2 models=2C yours and a low
voltage model for 12-90 volts. I would guess I want the low 12-90 volt mode
l for our application. But=2C as I stated=2C yours is the high voltage mode
l. Does it work on 12 volt ignition systems? They are less than $15 apiece.
I guess the question is academic=2C might as well buy both at that price.P
at ReillyMod 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: checkin
g spark> From: ssadiver1@yahoo.com> Date: Fri=2C 23 Jan 2009 08:23:09 -0800
r Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>> > Hi Mike=2C> > That is why I like using my t
ester. You do not disconnect anything. Just run the engine as normal and ho
ld the tester by the wire. You can even move it along the length of wire an
d it will detect a break.> Just another diagnostic tool to toss in your bag
.> > --------> Roger Lee> Tucson=2C Az.> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenanc
e Rated> Rotax Service Center> 520-574-1080> > > > > Read this topic online
here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226364#226364> > >
========================> _
================> > >
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
At 11:45 PM 1/22/2009, you wrote:
>All else, sorry for the rant, but I will only post what I have
>personally done, not hearsay. Pics I tooks of and from these flying
>death traps today will follow.
OK guys. As much as I like to talk airplanes, I'm going to
encourage all of you to let the Piper thread peter-out. (I know it's
fun, and sort-of Kitfox related so if you just HAVE to say something,
go ahead. But let's not prolong it too much.) And please do not
continue to respond to Mike's original post. He and I are
"discussing" it off-line.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
Sorry. Wrong signature.
At 08:49 AM 1/23/2009, you wrote:
>At 11:45 PM 1/22/2009, you wrote:
>>All else, sorry for the rant, but I will only post what I have
>>personally done, not hearsay. Pics I tooks of and from these
>>flying death traps today will follow.
>
> OK guys. As much as I like to talk airplanes, I'm going to
> encourage all of you to let the Piper thread peter-out. (I know
> it's fun, and sort-of Kitfox related so if you just HAVE to say
> something, go ahead. But let's not prolong it too much.) And please
> do not continue to respond to Mike's original post. He and I are
> "discussing" it off-line.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Guy Buchanan
>San Diego, CA
>K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
Hi Mike,
I think you are making a mistake comparing a LSA to a clipped wing Kitfox.
The whole LSA program, is directed at a new, low time, pilot (such as
yourself maybe). Some of us old timers are taking advantage of the program
medical wise, but that doesn't change the reason it was introduced. If your
concept of aircraft is like a bicycle with training wheels - I can't fault
that, but I do wonder on your insistance that others do the same or somehow
they are stupid.
Regarding airfoils. I think that if you did a little digging, you would
find that an airfoil is designed with lift, stall characteristics and other
factors such as feeding the moving air to the flaps, ailerons etc. It is a
quite narrow consideration and doesn't consider wing length. I know of
several designs that have different airfoil profiles on different parts of
the wing with specific design characteristics needed for that section of
wing. Some are definitely buggers to fly, but then they are not intended
for the 100 hour pilot to get time in. Frankly, the 100 hour pilot wouldn't
exist in those airplanes because they probably wouldn't survive their first
landing. If you are afraid of flying these airplanes, you have company as
I am as well, but with the proper training and experience they meet their
design criteria and are perfectly safe to fly. If shortening the Riblett
airfoil used on the Kitfox was a no no, then the factory would have never
introduced the Speedster.
What mystifies me is how you have the inclination to project your fear of
flying to everyone on the list. If I was as fearful of anything but 172s as
You seem to be, I think I would keep it pretty much to myself.
You have dissed tailwheels and short wings because of perceived fears. I am
all eyes waiting for what else scares you and for feeling stupid if I don't
share the fears.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:59 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox
>
>
> av8rps wrote:
>> Hi Gang,
>>
>> Oh yeah, I'm basing my rationale for doing this on what Avid did back in
>> the early days when they took their 29+ foot Avid STOL wing off their
>> airplane and made a new semi-symmetrical airfoil with only a 24 foot
>> span.
>>
>> Paul S
>
>
> Paul,
>
> There is a big difference between making an entirely new wing, with a
> different airfoil optimized to be shorter, and just cutting the ends off
> of a wing that is designed to be much longer. You should think about this
> hard before you think that just cutting the ends off the wing will make it
> a lot faster. Did it ever occur to you that the new airfoil may have had
> more to do with the Avid's speed increase than just reducing the span ?
>
> Changing airfoil AND span is far different than just cutting the ends off
> of a Kitfox wing. Good luck with that, but you are in for a really big
> dissapointment.
>
> Dick Maddux,
>
> Maybe you like short wing Pipers, but most people did not. Cessna kicked
> their butts with Higher aspect radio and longer span 150's and 172's.
> Much more importantly to those considering modifying a Kitfox, they should
> look at moder LSA aircraft design, which is more comparable to a Kitfox,
> and has almost universally gone towards longer span, higher aspect ratio
> wings. There is a very good reason for this, and that is a FACT.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
> could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226360#226360
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: checking spark - voltage range on tester |
On Fri, January 23, 2009 8:46 am, patrick reilly wrote:
>
> Roger, OK, I am sold. I Googled up the Greenlee tester. Yours (thanks for the
picture)
> is 50-1000 volts. Greenlee has 2 models, yours and a low voltage model for 12-90
> volts. I would guess I want the low 12-90 volt model for our application. But,
as I
> stated, yours is the high voltage model. Does it work on 12 volt ignition systems?
This is an a/c tester (alternating current) so it won't detect DC voltage. The
higher
voltage range is what I'd think you'd need for spark detection.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: checking spark - voltage range on tester |
Paul=2C Thanks for the info. I wondered about the fact that it is an AC tes
ter.
do not archivePat ReillyMod 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL> Date: Fri=2C 23 Ja
n 2009 09:35:32 -0800> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: checking spark - voltage r
ange on tester> From: paul@eucleides.com> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> >
.com>> > On Fri=2C January 23=2C 2009 8:46 am=2C patrick reilly wrote:> >>
> Roger=2C OK=2C I am sold. I Googled up the Greenlee tester. Yours (thanks
for the picture)> > is 50-1000 volts. Greenlee has 2 models=2C yours and a
low voltage model for 12-90> > volts. I would guess I want the low 12-90 v
olt model for our application. But=2C as I> > stated=2C yours is the high v
oltage model. Does it work on 12 volt ignition systems?> > This is an a/c t
ester (alternating current) so it won't detect DC voltage. The higher> volt
age range is what I'd think you'd need for spark detection.> > -- > Paul A.
Franz> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NS
==> > >
Message 23
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| Subject: | trip to Oshkosh/big prep, short "flight"/ F210 Fuel meter |
"Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case" (beatles)
Well, the window for getting to Oshkosh has closed again this year.
Man, I've got no luck with that Fly-in at all...except for the first
year.
It began with me installing my F210 fuel flow meter, and not finding
the fittings that I wanted to use. I ended up with barbed fittings
going into a galvanized 45 degree elbow, which looked like something
I wouldn't do on a lawn mower....thank God it's inside the console
and nobody sees it. Come spring, and I may change it...probably
not. : ) Then came the wiring, and of course, my wiring "kit" is over
at my CFI's shop, where I've been helping out. So I twisted wires
together, and taped them...UGH! then the test flight over to his
place, for some last minute verbal abuse regarding the flight, and
him telling me "Don't do anything stupid" I took that to mean on the
flight to Oshkosh, so I left and decided to land on the lake by my
house. I smacked a drift pretty hard landing, got out and checked
things over and all was ok, so I taxied back and prepped for takeoff.
I noticed that I had crossed some wet tracks...not mine...and wanted
to get the hell out of there pretty quick, so I powered up and it
took a fair amount of distance to get airborne....longer than usual.
Once airborne, I noticed it was climbing but not spectacularly, and I
happened to look at the right hand strut for some reason....it was
covered in frozen slush. Now I knew why the climb was not so hot. I
cleared the trees by a couple of hundred feet and flew home....it was
still gaining altitude. Got to the hangar, and saw about a half-inch
of slush on the right wing right around the gas cap area, just about
the center of lift, and also plugging the gas cap vent. Left side ok.
Well, that took care of the "anything stupid" card, so I figured I
was gold for the trip today up to 'kosh. I let the plane sit in the
sun (which had melted some snow on the lake and brought about the
less-than-ideal landing and takeoff conditions) to melt off the
slush, and I de-slushed and de-iced the brakes. When the wing was
free of ice and water I hangared it and went home.
Arriving at the hangar this morning with something less than
exuberance for the flight around Chicago in crappy conditions and
crappier further up north, I found that I had forgotten to plug in my
oil heater. That delayed my departure a bit, knowing that it takes a
long time for the Jabiru to warm up the oil by running. I fueled up,
packed stuff, had to chip at ice holding the hangar doors shut, and
struggled to push the plane outdoors. I put my car inside, so the
farmers who were unloading seed into a silo could have the driveway
to themselves, and finally fired her up. It took a while to warm the
oil to operating temp, but finally I was ready to taxi, and one last
look at the weather locally which was 260 wind at 16 gusting to 22,
and low ceiling, but flyable...locally at least. Damn near full power
required to taxi in the heavy snow....34 degrees F. Finally got to
temp and powered up.........20 mph maximum airspeed into the
wind....no telling what the ground speed was, and I kept this up
beyond the "give it up" mark on the runway, and figured God must be
telling me something I didn't want to acknowledge but finally
did....wait until next year.
I'm too far away from Oshkosh to make it the day of the event even if
I left at before sunup, so my window of opportunity is very narrow
for the day before. Thinking I could make it up there even if I left
here at noon, a 4-5 hr trip would be pushing it, and the wind was
coming right at me for the first 2-3 hours, which would have meant a
fuel stop at some point on the way up. The cards were stacked against
me. And even if I had taken the farmer up on his offer to clear a
path for me, I had seen the writing on the wall, and it didn't say
"Welcome to Oshkosh"
So far the fuel flow meter works great....it's really neat to see
what a twist of the throttle will do, up or down...thanks for the
tip, Leonard, Deke, Dick (?) and whoever else suggested...oh, yeah,
my "neighbor" at OSH, Marco!
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
>
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| Subject: | Aircaft weighing procedures |
I'm getting ready to do the weight and balance on my model iv. This maybe a dumb
question but I thought I'd ask it anyway. Are three scales required to weigh
the aircraft properly or can each wheel be weighed separately as long the aircraft
is kept level? Please advise. thanks
--------
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV , Ready for Inspection
Jabiru 2200 , 1.5 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226390#226390
Attachments:
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| Subject: | Re: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> You have dissed tailwheels and short wings because of perceived fears. I am
> all eyes waiting for what else scares you and for feeling stupid if I don't
> share the fears.
>
> Lowell
>
> ---
Lowell,
You are just trying to distract people from the facts when you try to talk about
" Fear ". You know full well that the main point of my several posts relating
to this subject is that Shortening the wings by this large amount will hurt
the performance of the Kitfox, and that the significant amount of speed increase,
if any, that the author is hoping for will not happen. So if you have
information or facts that says that the Kitfox will perform better with such
short wings, then by all means post it. If the best you can do is try to distract
readers from the facts with " Fear ", then that is pretty pathetic on your
part.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226393#226393
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| Subject: | Re: Aircaft weighing procedures |
At 10:24 AM 1/23/2009, you wrote:
>Are three scales required to weigh the aircraft properly or can
>each wheel be weighed separately as long the aircraft is kept level?
Dan,
There's nothing wrong with doing this way, as long as you're
using a good, repeatable, scale.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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| Subject: | Aircaft weighing procedures |
You can do it that way but you might want check around and see is you can
find some aircraft scales. Many eaa chapter have them available and in some
cases for free.
If you are near Kansas city mo EAA Chapter 612 has a set.
Roosterville612.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DanM
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Aircaft weighing procedures
I'm getting ready to do the weight and balance on my model iv. This maybe a
dumb question but I thought I'd ask it anyway. Are three scales required to
weigh the aircraft properly or can each wheel be weighed separately as long
the aircraft is kept level? Please advise. thanks
--------
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV , Ready for Inspection
Jabiru 2200 , 1.5 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226390#226390
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/015_262.jpg
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| Subject: | Flaperon painting |
Kitfoxers,
Can the flaperons be painted directly onto the aluminum, or do they have to
be covered with fabric first?
tnx,
Clem
Oklahoma
Kitfox IV-912, under construction since 1991
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Flaperon painting |
Mine are painted right on the aluminum. I didn't build it, so I can't say if that
is the correct way, but it seems fine on mine.
Andrew
815TL, Kitfox II, Rotax 582-C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226414#226414
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| Subject: | Magnito/RPM wierdness. Any ideas? |
Hey all. My instructor and I tried to take the plane up this afternoon, so I could
get some time in, but we ran into a snag. He was not comfortable taking
it up until we get it figured out.
On run up, we would turn off one mag at a time to check them. Turning off the
left mag would indicate a drop of about 50RPM, and we could also hear it and feel
it. But when we would do the right mag, it would indicate a 500-800RPM INCREASE.
Now we could feel and hear a slight drop, probably 50-100RPM, just like
the left. But the indication would say a huge increase.
The last time I had the engine running, the mags worked and showed fine.
This is a Rotax 582 model 90 by the way.
Any ideas on this?
Andrew
815TL, Kitfox II, Rotax 582-C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226416#226416
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| Subject: | X-Plane test WAS: 26 foot Clipped Wing Kitfox |
> From: mscotter@comcast.net
> Hey Paul, just a thought, but this might be a good application for Michel's kitfox
> model in X-plane.
Sure! Send me the data and I'll try. Sorry, I haven't followed the thread closely,
I need to know what you want as surface to test.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not archive
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Aircaft weighing procedures |
Each wheel can be weighed separately but the plane must be levelled each
time you move the scales. Lots easier to get three scales.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DanM
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 2:54 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Aircaft weighing procedures
I'm getting ready to do the weight and balance on my model iv. This maybe a
dumb question but I thought I'd ask it anyway. Are three scales required to
weigh the aircraft properly or can each wheel be weighed separately as long
the aircraft is kept level? Please advise. thanks
--------
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV , Ready for Inspection
Jabiru 2200 , 1.5 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226390#226390
Attachments:
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| Subject: | Re: Flaperon painting |
have never seen a kitfox with fabric covered flapperons
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| Subject: | Re: Flaperon painting |
At 12:19 PM 1/23/2009, you wrote:
>Can the flaperons be painted directly onto the aluminum, or do they
>have to be covered with fabric first?
Prime and paint. Don't cover them.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 35
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| Subject: | Flaperon painting |
Clem,
This is how I painted mine, lightly scuffed the surface with a scotch brite
pad or a 360 grit wet dry then cleaned with Alumiprep 33 an aluminum
prepping agent. Then primed with a 2 part epoxy primer then used a standard
automotive enamel color matched to my Polytone paint.
There are many other options for prep methods, primer and final paint,
important thing is to make sure you prep, prime and then paint.
PS. No fabric needed.
Lloyd
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of clemwehner
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 2:20 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Flaperon painting
Kitfoxers,
Can the flaperons be painted directly onto the aluminum, or do they have to
be covered with fabric first?
tnx,
Clem
Oklahoma
Kitfox IV-912, under construction since 1991
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Kitfox-List
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG.
7:28 AM
Checked by AVG.
7:28 AM
Message 36
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| Subject: | Magnito/RPM wierdness. Any ideas? |
I'm not knowledgeable of the Rotax engines, but from your description, I
would start looking at the meter circuitry ground. It's not uncommon to get
a higher than normal indication of voltage in a circuit with a floating
ground, whether its AC or pulsating DC.
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 815TL
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 2:43 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Magnito/RPM wierdness. Any ideas?
Hey all. My instructor and I tried to take the plane up this afternoon, so
I could get some time in, but we ran into a snag. He was not comfortable
taking it up until we get it figured out.
On run up, we would turn off one mag at a time to check them. Turning off
the left mag would indicate a drop of about 50RPM, and we could also hear it
and feel it. But when we would do the right mag, it would indicate a
500-800RPM INCREASE. Now we could feel and hear a slight drop, probably
50-100RPM, just like the left. But the indication would say a huge
increase.
The last time I had the engine running, the mags worked and showed fine.
This is a Rotax 582 model 90 by the way.
Any ideas on this?
Andrew
815TL, Kitfox II, Rotax 582-C
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226416#226416
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| Subject: | Re: Aircaft weighing procedures |
The first time I weighed I borrowed a bathroom scales from a couple neighbors.
First I tried the move one scale to each wheel but that is more trouble than
it seems until you try it.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
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| Subject: | Re: Magnito/RPM wierdness. Any ideas? |
I tried a mag check once with the master switch off. It did something like you
experienced. Turned the master on and the mag check was normal.
As mentioned earlier, I would check all the ground wires carefully, a loose ground
can cause some weird conditions in the two strokes.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226460#226460
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| Subject: | Re: Magnito/RPM wierdness. Any ideas? |
That sounds like an interesting problem. What was causing it? Should be no
connection,direct or indirect between the master switch and the magneto,
should there? Larry Huntley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:12 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Magnito/RPM wierdness. Any ideas?
>
> I tried a mag check once with the master switch off. It did something
> like you experienced. Turned the master on and the mag check was normal.
>
> As mentioned earlier, I would check all the ground wires carefully, a
> loose ground can cause some weird conditions in the two strokes.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV
> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226460#226460
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
7:28 AM
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| Subject: | trip to Oshkosh/big prep, short "flight"/ F210 Fuel |
meter
Lynn=2C Better luck next year. I'll try to remember to let you know when ou
r fly-ins are this spring. Maybe one will have winds out of the east switch
ing to the west. I guess that only happens if you are flying east then west
=2C Ha!
do not archivePat ReillyMod 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL> From: lynnmatt@jps
.net> Subject: Kitfox-List: trip to Oshkosh/big prep=2C short "flight"/ F21
0 Fuel meter> Date: Fri=2C 23 Jan 2009 13:21:22 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matr
.net>> > "Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case" (beatles)> > Well=2C th
e window for getting to Oshkosh has closed again this year. > Man=2C I've g
ot no luck with that Fly-in at all...except for the first > year.> It began
with me installing my F210 fuel flow meter=2C and not finding > the fittin
gs that I wanted to use. I ended up with barbed fittings > going into a gal
vanized 45 degree elbow=2C which looked like something > I wouldn't do on a
lawn mower....thank God it's inside the console > and nobody sees it. Come
spring=2C and I may change it...probably > not. : ) Then came the wiring
=2C and of course=2C my wiring "kit" is over > at my CFI's shop=2C where I'
ve been helping out. So I twisted wires > together=2C and taped them...UGH!
then the test flight over to his > place=2C for some last minute verbal ab
use regarding the flight=2C and > him telling me "Don't do anything stupid"
I took that to mean on the > flight to Oshkosh=2C so I left and decided to
land on the lake by my > house. I smacked a drift pretty hard landing=2C g
ot out and checked > things over and all was ok=2C so I taxied back and pre
pped for takeoff. > I noticed that I had crossed some wet tracks...not mine
...and wanted > to get the hell out of there pretty quick=2C so I powered u
p and it > took a fair amount of distance to get airborne....longer than us
ual. > Once airborne=2C I noticed it was climbing but not spectacularly=2C
and I > happened to look at the right hand strut for some reason....it was
> covered in frozen slush. Now I knew why the climb was not so hot. I > cle
ared the trees by a couple of hundred feet and flew home....it was > still
gaining altitude. Got to the hangar=2C and saw about a half-inch > of slush
on the right wing right around the gas cap area=2C just about > the center
of lift=2C and also plugging the gas cap vent. Left side ok. > Well=2C tha
t took care of the "anything stupid" card=2C so I figured I > was gold for
the trip today up to 'kosh. I let the plane sit in the > sun (which had mel
ted some snow on the lake and brought about the > less-than-ideal landing a
nd takeoff conditions) to melt off the > slush=2C and I de-slushed and de-i
ced the brakes. When the wing was > free of ice and water I hangared it and
went home.> Arriving at the hangar this morning with something less than >
exuberance for the flight around Chicago in crappy conditions and > crappi
er further up north=2C I found that I had forgotten to plug in my > oil hea
ter. That delayed my departure a bit=2C knowing that it takes a > long time
for the Jabiru to warm up the oil by running. I fueled up=2C > packed stuf
f=2C had to chip at ice holding the hangar doors shut=2C and > struggled to
push the plane outdoors. I put my car inside=2C so the > farmers who were
unloading seed into a silo could have the driveway > to themselves=2C and f
inally fired her up. It took a while to warm the > oil to operating temp=2C
but finally I was ready to taxi=2C and one last > look at the weather loca
lly which was 260 wind at 16 gusting to 22=2C > and low ceiling=2C but flya
ble...locally at least. Damn near full power > required to taxi in the heav
y snow....34 degrees F. Finally got to > temp and powered up.........20 mph
maximum airspeed into the > wind....no telling what the ground speed was
=2C and I kept this up > beyond the "give it up" mark on the runway=2C and
figured God must be > telling me something I didn't want to acknowledge but
finally > did....wait until next year.> > I'm too far away from Oshkosh to
make it the day of the event even if > I left at before sunup=2C so my win
dow of opportunity is very narrow > for the day before. Thinking I could ma
ke it up there even if I left > here at noon=2C a 4-5 hr trip would be push
ing it=2C and the wind was > coming right at me for the first 2-3 hours=2C
which would have meant a > fuel stop at some point on the way up. The cards
were stacked against > me. And even if I had taken the farmer up on his of
fer to clear a > path for me=2C I had seen the writing on the wall=2C and i
t didn't say > "Welcome to Oshkosh"> > So far the fuel flow meter works gre
at....it's really neat to see > what a twist of the throttle will do=2C up
or down...thanks for the > tip=2C Leonard=2C Deke=2C Dick (?) and whoever e
lse suggested...oh=2C yeah=2C > my "neighbor" at OSH=2C Marco!> > Lynn Matt
eson> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46> Electroair direct-fire ignition system> New skis done an
====================> > >
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| Subject: | Re: checking spark |
Mike - I checked the wiring for each ignition position and all is well on
that front. I'm hoping for the "not seeing the spark" scenario as burned
module(s) would be a bummer for sure.
There's a definite consensus that testing for ignition by grounding a plug
to the block can damage the modules...does anyone know why this is the case?
Seems like the plug would not know if it's grounded to the block externally
of if it's screwed into the block? Seems the same electronically...
I purchased a timing light tonight and plan to check for ignition using this
method tomorrow.
**************Know Your Numbers: Get tips and tools to help you improve your
credit score.
(http://www.walletpop.com/credit/credit-reports?ncid=emlcntuswall00000002)
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| Subject: | Turtledeck installation instructions |
Does anyone have the turtledeck installation instructions, including the plastic
squares the flaperon horn goes through, for a Classic 4 that they can scan and
email me? I've misplaced mine and John McBean hasn't gotten back to me yet.
I was hoping to get this done tomorrow. Thanks,
Brent Bidus
Classic 4 Speedster/912
Colorado Springs, CO
____________________________________________________________
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Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: oil line routing |
Dan,
I am sending this to the list in case others might want to try it as well.
Sorry to respond so late. I did a little googling on Google and found lots
of manufacturers, but nothing that didn't have a quote request link.
I got mine from a friend in the aerospace industry. I think what I would do
at this point is make my own spring. I make jump rings this way for the SS
pendants I make. To make the jump rings, I wind a length of sterling wire
around a brass rod and then cut them off with a jewelers saw. I just tried
it using .041 safety wire around a 3/8" rod. The resulting coil fit nicely
in a piece of .5" ID vinyl tube. I stretched it so there was about 1/8"
between turns and I could bend spring reinforced tube to about a 1" radius
and the coils held without collapsing. The tubing was clear so I could see
what the coils did inside - they held fine.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
Just about ready to cover fuselage and left wing. And just made a vacuum
forming machine to make lenses for my aft position lights - I hope it works.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chenoweth" <chenoweth@gwi.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: oil line routing
> Where does one get such a spring?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Chenoweth" <chenoweth@gwi.net>
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:43 AM
> Subject: Re: oil line routing
>
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> I had his problem in the area of the oil line in the front of the
>> engine.
>> The solution was to get a length of Stainless Steel spring the diameter
>> of
>> the inside of the tubing and I put it in the tube at the critical bend
>> area.
>> It kept the tube from collapsing and didn't interfere with oil flow.
>>
>> Lowell
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chenoweth" <chenoweth@gwi.net>
>> To: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:09 AM
>> Subject: Fw: oil line routing
>>
>>
>> FYI. The solution seems to be to run the oil line forward. It's totally
>> hokey - goes around the oil filter just outside of the cooler. John is
>> looking into banjo fittings as on the older engines but I'm going ahead
>> with
>> the elbow. Have you run into this yet?
>> Bill
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Chenoweth
>> To: John - Kitfox Aircraft
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:00 PM
>> Subject: oil line routing
>>
>>
>> John,
>> This is about the best I can do with the oil line routing from bottom to
>> tank. You'll note that I have the elbow fitting not the banjo fitting.
>> This is the set-up that came with the engine. I think the radius of the
>> curve is about 2.7 which is about what Rotax calls for but there is
>> definite
>> flattening of the line under the firesleeve. I've tried other routes but
>> they run into the exhaust pipes.
>>
>> So, is this going to work? If not, what do you suggest?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> HP Photosmart Essential - Smart. Simple. Fast!
>> Unleash the Photo Power of your Printer.
>> Download your copy in less than a minute at:
>> http://www.hp.com/go/pse/email
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 1/21/2009 7:07 AM
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: checking spark |
On Fri, January 23, 2009 5:53 pm, CDE2fly@aol.com wrote:
> Mike - I checked the wiring for each ignition position and all is well on
> that front. I'm hoping for the "not seeing the spark" scenario as burned
> module(s) would be a bummer for sure.
You've isolated it just slightly. It's either a wiring (or grounding) problem or
the
ignition module is faulty.
> There's a definite consensus that testing for ignition by grounding a plug
> to the block can damage the modules...does anyone know why this is the case?
The idea is that with the plug loose, it'll have either no ground contact, poor
contact or variable contact. In an open circuit condition, the impedance is so
high
that it is thought that high voltage spikes in the secondary (spark circuit) could
leak into the primary, damaging electronic components similar to the damage that
can
be caused with static electricity.
What bothers me about this assumption is that would imply that a bad spark plug
wire
(or one that is disconnected) could damage the electronics. That seems to me to
be an
unacceptable flaw in design.
> Seems like the plug would not know if it's grounded to the block externally
> of if it's screwed into the block? Seems the same electronically...
True, but the assumption is that the spark plug laying on the engine may not be
grounded at all, or periodically as the engine bounces around while cranking it
over.
> I purchased a timing light tonight and plan to check for ignition using this
> method tomorrow.
Unfortunately, this will just confirm spark or no spark. Not the holy grail of
repair
diagnostics.
BTW, did you know that your ISP (AOL) is appending advertising to your outgoing
e-mail?
> **************Know Your Numbers: Get tips and tools to help you improve your
> credit score.
> (http://www.walletpop.com/credit/credit-reports?ncid=emlcntuswall00000002)
>
That would be instant cause for parting with that company to me. Or at least getting
e-mail from someone else. I don't think gmail appends ads. I see that hotmail has
them, not sure about yahoo mail either.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 45
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| Subject: | Turtledeck installation instructions |
Brent.. Check your email....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
brentbidus@juno.com
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:09 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Turtledeck installation instructions
--> <brentbidus@juno.com>
Does anyone have the turtledeck installation instructions, including the
plastic squares the flaperon horn goes through, for a Classic 4 that they
can scan and email me? I've misplaced mine and John McBean hasn't gotten
back to me yet. I was hoping to get this done tomorrow. Thanks,
Brent Bidus
Classic 4 Speedster/912
Colorado Springs, CO
____________________________________________________________
Get a degree and open new doors. Click to find flexible and affordable
programs now.
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fEc4UqHTlokDoOiY1RE6P/
Message 46
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| Subject: | leading edge cuffs |
Hi all=2C Just wondering if anyone has installed the leading edge cuffs (a
s used on a Kitfox 4 or newer) on a Kitfox 1-3 model with the undercambered
wing=2C and if so was the wing's performance improved? Perhaps a lower st
all speed and better cruise speed from less drag???? Thanks=2C Jim Chuk
Avid MK IV Jabiru Mn
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live=99 Hotmail=AE:=85more than just e-mail.
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ore_012009
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