Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:38 AM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Catz631@aol.com)
2. 09:02 AM - Re: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Noel Loveys)
3. 11:09 AM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Noel Loveys)
4. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Lynn Matteson)
5. 12:02 PM - Kitfox with rotax fuel injection (jason Parker)
6. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Randy Daughenbaugh)
7. 02:22 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Lynn Matteson)
8. 03:02 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Bob Brennan)
9. 03:13 PM - Ski report/snow conditions (Lynn Matteson)
10. 03:19 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Lynn Matteson)
11. 03:24 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Larry Huntley)
12. 05:00 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Noel Loveys)
13. 05:05 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Lowlead)
14. 05:30 PM - Re: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Lynn Matteson)
15. 05:39 PM - Fw: ski saver (Larry Huntley)
16. 06:11 PM - Re: Fw: ski saver (patrick reilly)
17. 06:50 PM - Re: ski saver (AKFLYERBOB)
18. 08:17 PM - Re: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Rexinator)
19. 09:18 PM - Re: Fw: ski saver (John Bonewitz)
20. 11:08 PM - Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
21. 11:25 PM - Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
That foam weather striping sounds like a good idea. You could further refine
this by putting a strip of teflon antichafe tape on the other side of the
weather striping foam(oposite the adhesive side) or on the elevator leading edge
for that mater. This stuff is real slick and I bought a roll of it from Spruce
as a cowling chafe tape a while back. It works real well.
Only thing is, in the heat the adhesive on weather strip tends to give way
into a goo.
That sailplane tape looks interesting also
Dick Maddux
Pensacola,Fl.
**************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay
up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
Or you could attach the seal, on the elevator side only with good old 1 in.
Velcro.
Another thing to try is to cover the leading edge of the elevator and rudder
with the plastic tape then attach the gap seal to that tape so when you
remove the seal you don't disturb the dope under it.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
Good idea, but I'm from the camp that always wants to be able to take
something apart if a problem arises. I guess if a rock passed through
the elevator, you could always MEK the Vee off from the elevator, and
maybe reattach it when the repairs were made. A longer process, by
far, than the tape method, but cleaner-looking.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 31, 2009, at 2:37 AM, JC Propeller Design wrote:
> <propellerdesign@tele2.se>
>
> You can use that, but why not take 2 pieces sewn together at the
> middle and dope one Vee to stab and other to elevator.
>
> Or use sail fabric that is air tight from start
>
> Jan
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 9:18 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
>
>
>> <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>>
>> Why not just use a piece of PolyFiber attached with Polytack to
>> seal the gap ??? It would be permanent, easy to do, and look
>> good ! Much better than tape.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --------
>> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
>> as you could have !!!
>>
>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227727#227727
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 3814 (20090131) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now... Friday nights
not the best night of the week for me;-).
I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a place for
grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing".
What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2 inch tape
sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to the
stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the plane. They
should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a couple of
rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
Nope, no picture or drawing. Just visualize...after the inbibation
wears off....the flat surface of the stab and elevator, as viewed
from the side/edge, with the tape starting on the top left, and
crossing to the bottom right. (This of course assumes that you have
properly made the tape with an inch of the sticky surfaces against
each other so that the tape can be stuck down on the top left and
the bottom right) Now another tape from the bottom left crossing to
the top right. Where they pass by each other, they form an "X". Then
imagine a piece of tape 2" wide being placed from top of stab to
bottom of elev. (top left to bottom right), and next to it another
tape placed from bottom left to top right. Continue alternating tapes
until gap is sealed. I can imagine how this would look on a full-size
plane, and I don't like what I imagine. It worked fine on the models
and looked ok, and made an especially lightweight hinge. I personally
don't like the idea of this "over and under" tape application, as it
always leaves a place where junk can collect, no matter which way you
do it. I much prefer to let the elevator hang down, apply the tape
across the gap, and leave it at that. I use "racer's tape" that I
ordered in orange, which is the color of my plane in that area...the
color is not a perfect match...however, I can't see that mismatch
when I'm flying and neither can anybody else. The owners of "hangar
queens" would not like my reasoning, I'm sure.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Jan 30, 2009, at 8:20 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Lynn:
> do you have a picture or drawing of the X system?
> Second inbibation is starting to cut in and I'm having a problem
> visualizing your X setup.
>
> Noel
>
>
> --- On Fri, 1/30/09, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Received: Friday, January 30, 2009, 6:11 PM
>
>
> If you really want to drive yourself nuts over this gap sealing
> issue, try the
> "X" method instead of the "Z" method. We used the
> "X" method on our model planes.
> The "Z" method has been explained....from under (or over) the
> trailing portion of the hort. stab, to over (or under) the leading
> portion of
> the elevator, forming a "Z" when view from the side. The "X"
> method is just alternating the placement of lengths of 2" wide
> tape, over
> and under, then under and over, etc., until the gap is sealed. In the
> "X" method, you make strips of tape that go, say, 2" wide and
> from front to back, instead of the "Z" method where you run the tape
> from side of elevator to hinge, then hinge to hinge, and so on.
> The jury is still out on whether this is a good method or not...how
> 'bout
> some thoughts?
>
> As an aside, when this method is used in model planes, no hinge is
> needed, as
> the plastic covering material itself is used for the "gap seals" and
> in using the "X" method, the elevator operates freely without the use
> of hinges...not recommended for "live-in" airplanes.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:
>
> <paul@eucleides.com>
> >
> > On Fri, January 30, 2009 7:28 am, kirk hull wrote:
> >> Does anybody have pictures of the gap seal installation?
> >
> > I too would be interested in seeing photos. I'm interested in
> details
> of shape,
> > overlap and what happens to the slack when you run neutral or down
> elevator.
> >
> > Does the slack start to peel a tiny bit on either the stabilizer
> or the
> elevator with
> > dirt and debris sticking to the small exposed bit of adhesive?
> >
> > Which way is better to put them on - leading edge on top or
> bottom of Get the name you've always wanted ! @ymail.com or
> @rocketmail.com. _-
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
I just flew my plane today, and during the pre-flight I noticed that
the gap-seal tape...orange Racer's Tape...that I applied on 10-5-2008
is still holding fast. I wrote the date onto the tape to keep track
of how well it held up. The same tape that I applied earlier...God
knows when...is also still holding fas, so maybe we're overthinking
this gap-seal "problem." Of course, mine is applied over the top of
the gap and nothing underneath, so the purists among us...you know
who you are...would not buy this fix.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 1, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Or you could attach the seal, on the elevator side only with good
> old 1 in.
> Velcro.
>
> Another thing to try is to cover the leading edge of the elevator
> and rudder
> with the plastic tape then attach the gap seal to that tape so when
> you
> remove the seal you don't disturb the dope under it.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 8:12 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
>
>
> Good idea, but I'm from the camp that always wants to be able to take
> something apart if a problem arises. I guess if a rock passed through
> the elevator, you could always MEK the Vee off from the elevator, and
> maybe reattach it when the repairs were made. A longer process, by
> far, than the tape method, but cleaner-looking.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2009, at 2:37 AM, JC Propeller Design wrote:
>
>> <propellerdesign@tele2.se>
>>
>> You can use that, but why not take 2 pieces sewn together at the
>> middle and dope one Vee to stab and other to elevator.
>>
>> Or use sail fabric that is air tight from start
>>
>> Jan
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot"
>> <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 9:18 PM
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
>>
>>
>>> <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> Why not just use a piece of PolyFiber attached with Polytack to
>>> seal the gap ??? It would be permanent, easy to do, and look
>>> good ! Much better than tape.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> --------
>>> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
>>> as you could have !!!
>>>
>>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227727#227727
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature database 3814 (20090131) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Kitfox with rotax fuel injection |
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUrFJi93MIo=0Awww.youtube.com/watch?v=nhiMjZGP-
Dk=0Awww.youtube.com/watch?v=cD4_27rMX6Q=0Awww.youtube.com/watch?v=XEGx
========================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
Mike,
Unless you get all the coats and cross coats of poly spray on it it won't
last more than a year or two in the sun. Maybe that is permanent enough,
but I worry that with all the flexing, and enough coats or polyspray, it
will crack.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 1:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
Why not just use a piece of PolyFiber attached with Polytack to seal the gap
??? It would be permanent, easy to do, and look good ! Much better than
tape.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227727#227727
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the "Z" (or
"S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape from "under
the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will always be a
wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just harder to get
out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented myself with the
"over the front to over the back" method....yes it's aerodynamically
dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy air, but have we a
really "clean" plane otherwise?
Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost
Saturday? : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now...
> Friday nights
> not the best night of the week for me;-).
>
> I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a
> place for
> grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing".
>
> What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2
> inch tape
> sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to the
> stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the
> plane. They
> should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a
> couple of
> rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough!
>
> Noel
Message 8
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| Subject: | Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
I'm glad to see someone else used the just-tape-over-the-top method. When
this topic came up a few months ago I noticed on a magazine cover picture of
my plane I have for my desktop that at that time it had black tape on the
top side of the stabiliser gap, which was not there when I bought the plane.
I assume it was wide electrical tape which is *everywhere* on the plane
including the leading edges and vertical stabiliser gap, and which I am
gradually replacing since it peels.
I was hesitant to post my method since no one else had admitted here to that
simple method. I used a yellow duct tape across the entire topside of the
gaps, installed with the elevator fully down. With the elevator up it tucks
neatly into the gap. I chose the top instead of the bottom so it would not
accumulate anything, and left the bottom open to see the hinges on
pre-flight.
So far it has lasted a season and made a difference to control authority on
the short-field-over-trees grass strip that I use. Before sealing the gap my
slowest approach speed was determined by when I started losing pitch control
versus stall speed, which made it tough to flare properly. Possibly the
under-cambered wings and smaller tail made the gap seals more noticeable on
a Model 2 than later Models.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: 01 February 2009 5:18 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the "Z" (or
"S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape from "under
the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will always be a
wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just harder to get
out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented myself with the
"over the front to over the back" method....yes it's aerodynamically
dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy air, but have we a
really "clean" plane otherwise?
Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost
Saturday? : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now...
> Friday nights
> not the best night of the week for me;-).
>
> I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a
> place for
> grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing".
>
> What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2
> inch tape
> sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to the
> stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the
> plane. They
> should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a
> couple of
> rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough!
>
> Noel
Message 9
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| Subject: | Ski report/snow conditions |
Last week I had a "ski tuck" due to the bungees not being set to a
high enough initial tension. This week I cut 2" from them and
reinstalled and test flew them yesterday and today, and could not
get it to happen again. Admittedly, I wasn't really giving it what
could be considered an acrobatic test, but I made some (weak) dives
and pull-ups, and couldn't get the ski, or skis, to drop or tuck. I
even flew in bumpy-bangy air. I had made a tension check before and
after the shortening, and I picked up about 8 pounds of tension per
cord, or 16 pounds per ski.
I flew today to test the condition of the snow. Last week when I
tried to leave here to go to Oshkosh, the snow was so wet and heavy
that I could not get over 20 mph on the takeoff roll. This was after
2 days of above freezing temps...34-36 degrees F. Today, the
conditions were the same...overnight of over freezing, and 34 F when
I took off. It took a bit of coaxing, but I got up alright, and
landed at 4 different snow-covered grass strips. It was the same at
all strips...a bit longer than normal (most ski takeoffs take more
runway, I've read), but doable. When I stopped for lunch, I parked in
my own tracks, then 30 minutes later just rocked the plane a bit
before fire-up, firewalled it, and away I went, taxiing to the
runway...slowly. I used up about 1100 feet of a crosswind, no-tracks
runway before giving up and trying it on a snowmobile-trodden runway
into the wind. It still took about 300 feet before it got off the
ground due to the sticky snow conditions.
An article I had read (National Research Council of Canada) talked
about "snow friction" in this way:
"Early in the tests, it was found that sliding resistance and
adhesion were far more dependent upon snow conditions than on the
design of the ski. Further, the skiing quality of the snow changed
continually and it was not unusual to observe marked changes taking
place in less than an hour. The publication notes that there are
times when the sliding resistance of aircraft skis is so great that
it is impossible to reach flying speed."
I'm having a blast test-flying my skis, and seeing first-hand how
some of the writings that I studied while building them have merit.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 1, 2009, at 5:17 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the
> "Z" (or "S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape
> from "under the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will
> always be a wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just
> harder to get out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented
> myself with the "over the front to over the back" method....yes
> it's aerodynamically dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy
> air, but have we a really "clean" plane otherwise?
>
> Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost
> Saturday? : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>> Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now...
>> Friday nights
>> not the best night of the week for me;-).
>>
>> I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a
>> place for
>> grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing".
>>
>> What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2
>> inch tape
>> sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to
>> the
>> stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the
>> plane. They
>> should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a
>> couple of
>> rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough!
>>
>> Noel
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
I just tape up to the hinges, then tape again on the other side of
the hinge...all on the top-to-top surfaces...I'm gettin' too old to
bend down and look under there, Bob. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 1, 2009, at 5:57 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> I'm glad to see someone else used the just-tape-over-the-top
> method. When
> this topic came up a few months ago I noticed on a magazine cover
> picture of
> my plane I have for my desktop that at that time it had black tape
> on the
> top side of the stabiliser gap, which was not there when I bought
> the plane.
> I assume it was wide electrical tape which is *everywhere* on the
> plane
> including the leading edges and vertical stabiliser gap, and which
> I am
> gradually replacing since it peels.
>
> I was hesitant to post my method since no one else had admitted
> here to that
> simple method. I used a yellow duct tape across the entire topside
> of the
> gaps, installed with the elevator fully down. With the elevator up
> it tucks
> neatly into the gap. I chose the top instead of the bottom so it
> would not
> accumulate anything, and left the bottom open to see the hinges on
> pre-flight.
>
> So far it has lasted a season and made a difference to control
> authority on
> the short-field-over-trees grass strip that I use. Before sealing
> the gap my
> slowest approach speed was determined by when I started losing
> pitch control
> versus stall speed, which made it tough to flare properly. Possibly
> the
> under-cambered wings and smaller tail made the gap seals more
> noticeable on
> a Model 2 than later Models.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: 01 February 2009 5:18 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
>
>
> The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the "Z" (or
> "S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape from "under
> the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will always be a
> wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just harder to get
> out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented myself with the
> "over the front to over the back" method....yes it's aerodynamically
> dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy air, but have we a
> really "clean" plane otherwise?
>
> Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost
> Saturday? : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>> Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now...
>> Friday nights
>> not the best night of the week for me;-).
>>
>> I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a
>> place for
>> grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing".
>>
>> What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2
>> inch tape
>> sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to
>> the
>> stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the
>> plane. They
>> should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a
>> couple of
>> rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough!
>>
>> Noel
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
I did that with ski saver. Worked fin and not too complicated for my brain.
I can make decent 3pt landings with the Soob on front and no
flaps----Barely, But it works. Larry 4-1200 Soob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Brennan" <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> I'm glad to see someone else used the just-tape-over-the-top method. When
> this topic came up a few months ago I noticed on a magazine cover picture
> of
> my plane I have for my desktop that at that time it had black tape on the
> top side of the stabiliser gap, which was not there when I bought the
> plane.
> I assume it was wide electrical tape which is *everywhere* on the plane
> including the leading edges and vertical stabiliser gap, and which I am
> gradually replacing since it peels.
>
> I was hesitant to post my method since no one else had admitted here to
> that
> simple method. I used a yellow duct tape across the entire topside of the
> gaps, installed with the elevator fully down. With the elevator up it
> tucks
> neatly into the gap. I chose the top instead of the bottom so it would not
> accumulate anything, and left the bottom open to see the hinges on
> pre-flight.
>
> So far it has lasted a season and made a difference to control authority
> on
> the short-field-over-trees grass strip that I use. Before sealing the gap
> my
> slowest approach speed was determined by when I started losing pitch
> control
> versus stall speed, which made it tough to flare properly. Possibly the
> under-cambered wings and smaller tail made the gap seals more noticeable
> on
> a Model 2 than later Models.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
> Sent: 01 February 2009 5:18 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
>
>
> The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the "Z" (or
> "S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape from "under
> the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will always be a
> wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just harder to get
> out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented myself with the
> "over the front to over the back" method....yes it's aerodynamically
> dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy air, but have we a
> really "clean" plane otherwise?
>
> Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost
> Saturday? : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>> Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now...
>> Friday nights
>> not the best night of the week for me;-).
>>
>> I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a
>> place for
>> grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing".
>>
>> What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2
>> inch tape
>> sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to the
>> stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the
>> plane. They
>> should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a
>> couple of
>> rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough!
>>
>> Noel
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
6:02 PM
Message 12
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| Subject: | Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
Not lost just out of town until later last night.
What did you think of the idea of using Velcro (just on the rudder) Would
make it easy to clean and also easy to remove the rudder for repairs due to
hangar rash.
I'm going to try a gap seal this spring when I get the plane out again. At
least on the rudder to try to give me more authority for slips. Those big
floats hanging three feet or more below the CG really want to right the
plane. So far I've been giving full ruddr and controlling the slip with the
ailerons. Even doing that the slip is more gentle than what I can get with
no problems from a C-172.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the "Z" (or
"S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape from "under
the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will always be a
wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just harder to get
out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented myself with the
"over the front to over the back" method....yes it's aerodynamically
dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy air, but have we a
really "clean" plane otherwise?
Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost
Saturday? : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now...
> Friday nights
> not the best night of the week for me;-).
>
> I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a
> place for
> grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing".
>
> What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2
> inch tape
> sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to the
> stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the
> plane. They
> should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a
> couple of
> rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough!
>
> Noel
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
I use a 3M 3372 polyurethane surface protection tape applied on both top and bottom
of the gap (previous posts shown as >-
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228084#228084
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/gapseal1_141.jpg
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
That's a good-looking job, LL.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 1, 2009, at 8:01 PM, Lowlead wrote:
>
> I use a 3M 3372 polyurethane surface protection tape applied on
> both top and bottom of the gap (previous posts shown as >-
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228084#228084
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/gapseal1_141.jpg
>
>
Message 15
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|
Just received this. Does it sound like the same material? Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: <info@tognar.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: ski saver
>
> Yes,
> check this link on our bags/racks page
> http://www.tognar.com/bags_racks_boot_ski_binding_snowboard_accessory.html
> The top item is the scuff saver tape,
> Thanks,
> Cat
> www.tognar.com
>
>
>> Do you still have "ski saver" tape? Larry Huntley asq@roadrunner.com
> Ye
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
6:02 PM
Message 16
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|
Larry=2C Thanks for the web link. I ordered 5 feed just to have on hand. Th
at price for 14" wide clear tape is unreal. There are many times I wanted s
ome of that tape to protect paint on a car=2C motorcycle tank=2C etc. I'll
use it on the gap seal=2C Alla Lynn Matteson top side only. Lynn=2C if that
curls down into the gap=2C rather than up=2C I don't know why anybody woul
d use any other method.
do not archive Pat ReillyMod 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL> From: asq@roadrun
ner.com> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fw: ski saver
> Date: Sun=2C 1 Feb 2009 20:38:03 -0500> > --> Kitfox-List message posted
by: "Larry Huntley" <asq@roadrunner.com>> > Just received this. Does it sou
nd like the same material? Larry> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <i
nfo@tognar.com>> To: "Larry Huntley" <asq@roadrunner.com>> Sent: Sunday=2C
February 01=2C 2009 7:54 PM> Subject: Re: ski saver> > > >> > Yes=2C> > che
ck this link on our bags/racks page> > http://www.tognar.com/bags_racks_boo
t_ski_binding_snowboard_accessory.html> > The top item is the scuff saver t
ape=2C> > Thanks=2C> > Cat> > www.tognar.com> >> >> >> Do you still have "s
ki saver" tape? Larry Huntley asq@roadrunner.com> > Ye> >> > > ------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------> > > >
=====> > >
Message 17
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Larry
What material are you talking about?
I'm sure every one would like to know.
Bob
--------
Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
KF Mod I and III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228098#228098
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report |
That's exactly what I was trying to describe with my >-< symbol and my
little drawn image file. I agree with Lynn that it's a nice job. Can
you elaborate on how you applied so well?
Rex
Colorado M2/582
Lowlead wrote:
>
> I use a 3M 3372 polyurethane surface protection tape applied on both top and
bottom of the gap (previous posts shown as >-
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228084#228084
>
>
> Attachments:
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/gapseal1_141.jpg
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fw: ski saver |
We have a winner! I'm going to order some of this stuff. There are probably
lots of other uses besides gap seal.
Thanks,
John Bonewitz
Series 5
On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Larry Huntley <asq@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> Just received this. Does it sound like the same material? Larry
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <info@tognar.com>
> To: "Larry Huntley" <asq@roadrunner.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 7:54 PM
> Subject: Re: ski saver
>
>
>> Yes,
>> check this link on our bags/racks page
>> http://www.tognar.com/bags_racks_boot_ski_binding_snowboard_accessory.html
>> The top item is the scuff saver tape,
>> Thanks,
>> Cat
>> www.tognar.com
>>
>>
>> Do you still have "ski saver" tape? Larry Huntley asq@roadrunner.com
>>>
>> Ye
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> 6:02 PM
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Kitfox-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
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Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Kitfox-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Kitfox-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Kitfox-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kitfox
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kitfox-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Kitfox-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kitfox-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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