---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/01/09: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:38 AM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Catz631@aol.com) 2. 09:02 AM - Re: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Noel Loveys) 3. 11:09 AM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Noel Loveys) 4. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Lynn Matteson) 5. 12:02 PM - Kitfox with rotax fuel injection (jason Parker) 6. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Randy Daughenbaugh) 7. 02:22 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Lynn Matteson) 8. 03:02 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Bob Brennan) 9. 03:13 PM - Ski report/snow conditions (Lynn Matteson) 10. 03:19 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Lynn Matteson) 11. 03:24 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Larry Huntley) 12. 05:00 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Noel Loveys) 13. 05:05 PM - Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Lowlead) 14. 05:30 PM - Re: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Lynn Matteson) 15. 05:39 PM - Fw: ski saver (Larry Huntley) 16. 06:11 PM - Re: Fw: ski saver (patrick reilly) 17. 06:50 PM - Re: ski saver (AKFLYERBOB) 18. 08:17 PM - Re: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report (Rexinator) 19. 09:18 PM - Re: Fw: ski saver (John Bonewitz) 20. 11:08 PM - Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 21. 11:25 PM - Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:03 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report That foam weather striping sounds like a good idea. You could further refine this by putting a strip of teflon antichafe tape on the other side of the weather striping foam(oposite the adhesive side) or on the elevator leading edge for that mater. This stuff is real slick and I bought a roll of it from Spruce as a cowling chafe tape a while back. It works real well. Only thing is, in the heat the adhesive on weather strip tends to give way into a goo. That sailplane tape looks interesting also Dick Maddux Pensacola,Fl. **************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:06 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Or you could attach the seal, on the elevator side only with good old 1 in. Velcro. Another thing to try is to cover the leading edge of the elevator and rudder with the plastic tape then attach the gap seal to that tape so when you remove the seal you don't disturb the dope under it. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 8:12 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Good idea, but I'm from the camp that always wants to be able to take something apart if a problem arises. I guess if a rock passed through the elevator, you could always MEK the Vee off from the elevator, and maybe reattach it when the repairs were made. A longer process, by far, than the tape method, but cleaner-looking. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying On Jan 31, 2009, at 2:37 AM, JC Propeller Design wrote: > > > You can use that, but why not take 2 pieces sewn together at the > middle and dope one Vee to stab and other to elevator. > > Or use sail fabric that is air tight from start > > Jan > ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 9:18 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report > > >> >> >> Why not just use a piece of PolyFiber attached with Polytack to >> seal the gap ??? It would be permanent, easy to do, and look >> good ! Much better than tape. >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast >> as you could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227727#227727 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 3814 (20090131) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:12 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now... Friday nights not the best night of the week for me;-). I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a place for grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing". What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2 inch tape sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to the stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the plane. They should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a couple of rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough! Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Nope, no picture or drawing. Just visualize...after the inbibation wears off....the flat surface of the stab and elevator, as viewed from the side/edge, with the tape starting on the top left, and crossing to the bottom right. (This of course assumes that you have properly made the tape with an inch of the sticky surfaces against each other so that the tape can be stuck down on the top left and the bottom right) Now another tape from the bottom left crossing to the top right. Where they pass by each other, they form an "X". Then imagine a piece of tape 2" wide being placed from top of stab to bottom of elev. (top left to bottom right), and next to it another tape placed from bottom left to top right. Continue alternating tapes until gap is sealed. I can imagine how this would look on a full-size plane, and I don't like what I imagine. It worked fine on the models and looked ok, and made an especially lightweight hinge. I personally don't like the idea of this "over and under" tape application, as it always leaves a place where junk can collect, no matter which way you do it. I much prefer to let the elevator hang down, apply the tape across the gap, and leave it at that. I use "racer's tape" that I ordered in orange, which is the color of my plane in that area...the color is not a perfect match...however, I can't see that mismatch when I'm flying and neither can anybody else. The owners of "hangar queens" would not like my reasoning, I'm sure. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying On Jan 30, 2009, at 8:20 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > Lynn: > do you have a picture or drawing of the X system? > Second inbibation is starting to cut in and I'm having a problem > visualizing your X setup. > > Noel > > > --- On Fri, 1/30/09, Lynn Matteson wrote: > From: Lynn Matteson > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Received: Friday, January 30, 2009, 6:11 PM > > > If you really want to drive yourself nuts over this gap sealing > issue, try the > "X" method instead of the "Z" method. We used the > "X" method on our model planes. > The "Z" method has been explained....from under (or over) the > trailing portion of the hort. stab, to over (or under) the leading > portion of > the elevator, forming a "Z" when view from the side. The "X" > method is just alternating the placement of lengths of 2" wide > tape, over > and under, then under and over, etc., until the gap is sealed. In the > "X" method, you make strips of tape that go, say, 2" wide and > from front to back, instead of the "Z" method where you run the tape > from side of elevator to hinge, then hinge to hinge, and so on. > The jury is still out on whether this is a good method or not...how > 'bout > some thoughts? > > As an aside, when this method is used in model planes, no hinge is > needed, as > the plastic covering material itself is used for the "gap seals" and > in using the "X" method, the elevator operates freely without the use > of hinges...not recommended for "live-in" airplanes. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > New skis done and flying > > > On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, January 30, 2009 7:28 am, kirk hull wrote: > >> Does anybody have pictures of the gap seal installation? > > > > I too would be interested in seeing photos. I'm interested in > details > of shape, > > overlap and what happens to the slack when you run neutral or down > elevator. > > > > Does the slack start to peel a tiny bit on either the stabilizer > or the > elevator with > > dirt and debris sticking to the small exposed bit of adhesive? > > > > Which way is better to put them on - leading edge on top or > bottom of Get the name you've always wanted ! @ymail.com or > @rocketmail.com. _- > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:26:09 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report I just flew my plane today, and during the pre-flight I noticed that the gap-seal tape...orange Racer's Tape...that I applied on 10-5-2008 is still holding fast. I wrote the date onto the tape to keep track of how well it held up. The same tape that I applied earlier...God knows when...is also still holding fas, so maybe we're overthinking this gap-seal "problem." Of course, mine is applied over the top of the gap and nothing underneath, so the purists among us...you know who you are...would not buy this fix. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying On Feb 1, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Noel Loveys wrote: > > Or you could attach the seal, on the elevator side only with good > old 1 in. > Velcro. > > Another thing to try is to cover the leading edge of the elevator > and rudder > with the plastic tape then attach the gap seal to that tape so when > you > remove the seal you don't disturb the dope under it. > > Noel > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn > Matteson > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 8:12 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report > > > Good idea, but I'm from the camp that always wants to be able to take > something apart if a problem arises. I guess if a rock passed through > the elevator, you could always MEK the Vee off from the elevator, and > maybe reattach it when the repairs were made. A longer process, by > far, than the tape method, but cleaner-looking. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > New skis done and flying > > > On Jan 31, 2009, at 2:37 AM, JC Propeller Design wrote: > >> >> >> You can use that, but why not take 2 pieces sewn together at the >> middle and dope one Vee to stab and other to elevator. >> >> Or use sail fabric that is air tight from start >> >> Jan >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" >> >> To: >> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 9:18 PM >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report >> >> >>> >>> >>> Why not just use a piece of PolyFiber attached with Polytack to >>> seal the gap ??? It would be permanent, easy to do, and look >>> good ! Much better than tape. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> -------- >>> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast >>> as you could have !!! >>> >>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227727#227727 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature database 3814 (20090131) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:02:53 PM PST US From: jason Parker Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox with rotax fuel injection www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUrFJi93MIo=0Awww.youtube.com/watch?v=nhiMjZGP- Dk=0Awww.youtube.com/watch?v=cD4_27rMX6Q=0Awww.youtube.com/watch?v=XEGx ======================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:02:20 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Mike, Unless you get all the coats and cross coats of poly spray on it it won't last more than a year or two in the sun. Maybe that is permanent enough, but I worry that with all the flexing, and enough coats or polyspray, it will crack. Randy -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 1:19 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Why not just use a piece of PolyFiber attached with Polytack to seal the gap ??? It would be permanent, easy to do, and look good ! Much better than tape. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227727#227727 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:29 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the "Z" (or "S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape from "under the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will always be a wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just harder to get out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented myself with the "over the front to over the back" method....yes it's aerodynamically dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy air, but have we a really "clean" plane otherwise? Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost Saturday? : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now... > Friday nights > not the best night of the week for me;-). > > I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a > place for > grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing". > > What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2 > inch tape > sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to the > stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the > plane. They > should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a > couple of > rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough! > > Noel ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:08 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report I'm glad to see someone else used the just-tape-over-the-top method. When this topic came up a few months ago I noticed on a magazine cover picture of my plane I have for my desktop that at that time it had black tape on the top side of the stabiliser gap, which was not there when I bought the plane. I assume it was wide electrical tape which is *everywhere* on the plane including the leading edges and vertical stabiliser gap, and which I am gradually replacing since it peels. I was hesitant to post my method since no one else had admitted here to that simple method. I used a yellow duct tape across the entire topside of the gaps, installed with the elevator fully down. With the elevator up it tucks neatly into the gap. I chose the top instead of the bottom so it would not accumulate anything, and left the bottom open to see the hinges on pre-flight. So far it has lasted a season and made a difference to control authority on the short-field-over-trees grass strip that I use. Before sealing the gap my slowest approach speed was determined by when I started losing pitch control versus stall speed, which made it tough to flare properly. Possibly the under-cambered wings and smaller tail made the gap seals more noticeable on a Model 2 than later Models. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 01 February 2009 5:18 pm Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the "Z" (or "S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape from "under the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will always be a wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just harder to get out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented myself with the "over the front to over the back" method....yes it's aerodynamically dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy air, but have we a really "clean" plane otherwise? Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost Saturday? : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now... > Friday nights > not the best night of the week for me;-). > > I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a > place for > grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing". > > What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2 > inch tape > sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to the > stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the > plane. They > should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a > couple of > rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough! > > Noel ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:42 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Kitfox-List: Ski report/snow conditions Last week I had a "ski tuck" due to the bungees not being set to a high enough initial tension. This week I cut 2" from them and reinstalled and test flew them yesterday and today, and could not get it to happen again. Admittedly, I wasn't really giving it what could be considered an acrobatic test, but I made some (weak) dives and pull-ups, and couldn't get the ski, or skis, to drop or tuck. I even flew in bumpy-bangy air. I had made a tension check before and after the shortening, and I picked up about 8 pounds of tension per cord, or 16 pounds per ski. I flew today to test the condition of the snow. Last week when I tried to leave here to go to Oshkosh, the snow was so wet and heavy that I could not get over 20 mph on the takeoff roll. This was after 2 days of above freezing temps...34-36 degrees F. Today, the conditions were the same...overnight of over freezing, and 34 F when I took off. It took a bit of coaxing, but I got up alright, and landed at 4 different snow-covered grass strips. It was the same at all strips...a bit longer than normal (most ski takeoffs take more runway, I've read), but doable. When I stopped for lunch, I parked in my own tracks, then 30 minutes later just rocked the plane a bit before fire-up, firewalled it, and away I went, taxiing to the runway...slowly. I used up about 1100 feet of a crosswind, no-tracks runway before giving up and trying it on a snowmobile-trodden runway into the wind. It still took about 300 feet before it got off the ground due to the sticky snow conditions. An article I had read (National Research Council of Canada) talked about "snow friction" in this way: "Early in the tests, it was found that sliding resistance and adhesion were far more dependent upon snow conditions than on the design of the ski. Further, the skiing quality of the snow changed continually and it was not unusual to observe marked changes taking place in less than an hour. The publication notes that there are times when the sliding resistance of aircraft skis is so great that it is impossible to reach flying speed." I'm having a blast test-flying my skis, and seeing first-hand how some of the writings that I studied while building them have merit. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying do not archive On Feb 1, 2009, at 5:17 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > > The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the > "Z" (or "S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape > from "under the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will > always be a wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just > harder to get out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented > myself with the "over the front to over the back" method....yes > it's aerodynamically dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy > air, but have we a really "clean" plane otherwise? > > Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost > Saturday? : ) > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > New skis done and flying > > > On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > >> Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now... >> Friday nights >> not the best night of the week for me;-). >> >> I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a >> place for >> grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing". >> >> What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2 >> inch tape >> sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to >> the >> stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the >> plane. They >> should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a >> couple of >> rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough! >> >> Noel > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:35 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report I just tape up to the hinges, then tape again on the other side of the hinge...all on the top-to-top surfaces...I'm gettin' too old to bend down and look under there, Bob. : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying do not archive On Feb 1, 2009, at 5:57 PM, Bob Brennan wrote: > > > I'm glad to see someone else used the just-tape-over-the-top > method. When > this topic came up a few months ago I noticed on a magazine cover > picture of > my plane I have for my desktop that at that time it had black tape > on the > top side of the stabiliser gap, which was not there when I bought > the plane. > I assume it was wide electrical tape which is *everywhere* on the > plane > including the leading edges and vertical stabiliser gap, and which > I am > gradually replacing since it peels. > > I was hesitant to post my method since no one else had admitted > here to that > simple method. I used a yellow duct tape across the entire topside > of the > gaps, installed with the elevator fully down. With the elevator up > it tucks > neatly into the gap. I chose the top instead of the bottom so it > would not > accumulate anything, and left the bottom open to see the hinges on > pre-flight. > > So far it has lasted a season and made a difference to control > authority on > the short-field-over-trees grass strip that I use. Before sealing > the gap my > slowest approach speed was determined by when I started losing > pitch control > versus stall speed, which made it tough to flare properly. Possibly > the > under-cambered wings and smaller tail made the gap seals more > noticeable on > a Model 2 than later Models. > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn > Matteson > Sent: 01 February 2009 5:18 pm > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report > > > The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the "Z" (or > "S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape from "under > the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will always be a > wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just harder to get > out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented myself with the > "over the front to over the back" method....yes it's aerodynamically > dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy air, but have we a > really "clean" plane otherwise? > > Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost > Saturday? : ) > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > New skis done and flying > > > On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > >> Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now... >> Friday nights >> not the best night of the week for me;-). >> >> I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a >> place for >> grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing". >> >> What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2 >> inch tape >> sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to >> the >> stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the >> plane. They >> should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a >> couple of >> rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough! >> >> Noel > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:36 PM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report I did that with ski saver. Worked fin and not too complicated for my brain. I can make decent 3pt landings with the Soob on front and no flaps----Barely, But it works. Larry 4-1200 Soob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Brennan" Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 5:57 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report > > > I'm glad to see someone else used the just-tape-over-the-top method. When > this topic came up a few months ago I noticed on a magazine cover picture > of > my plane I have for my desktop that at that time it had black tape on the > top side of the stabiliser gap, which was not there when I bought the > plane. > I assume it was wide electrical tape which is *everywhere* on the plane > including the leading edges and vertical stabiliser gap, and which I am > gradually replacing since it peels. > > I was hesitant to post my method since no one else had admitted here to > that > simple method. I used a yellow duct tape across the entire topside of the > gaps, installed with the elevator fully down. With the elevator up it > tucks > neatly into the gap. I chose the top instead of the bottom so it would not > accumulate anything, and left the bottom open to see the hinges on > pre-flight. > > So far it has lasted a season and made a difference to control authority > on > the short-field-over-trees grass strip that I use. Before sealing the gap > my > slowest approach speed was determined by when I started losing pitch > control > versus stall speed, which made it tough to flare properly. Possibly the > under-cambered wings and smaller tail made the gap seals more noticeable > on > a Model 2 than later Models. > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson > Sent: 01 February 2009 5:18 pm > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report > > > The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the "Z" (or > "S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape from "under > the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will always be a > wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just harder to get > out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented myself with the > "over the front to over the back" method....yes it's aerodynamically > dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy air, but have we a > really "clean" plane otherwise? > > Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost > Saturday? : ) > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > New skis done and flying > > > On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > >> Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now... >> Friday nights >> not the best night of the week for me;-). >> >> I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a >> place for >> grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing". >> >> What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2 >> inch tape >> sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to the >> stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the >> plane. They >> should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a >> couple of >> rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough! >> >> Noel > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 6:02 PM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:25 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Not lost just out of town until later last night. What did you think of the idea of using Velcro (just on the rudder) Would make it easy to clean and also easy to remove the rudder for repairs due to hangar rash. I'm going to try a gap seal this spring when I get the plane out again. At least on the rudder to try to give me more authority for slips. Those big floats hanging three feet or more below the CG really want to right the plane. So far I've been giving full ruddr and controlling the slip with the ailerons. Even doing that the slip is more gentle than what I can get with no problems from a C-172. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report The "grass catcher" is the problem with either the "X" or the "Z" (or "S") method of applying tape...whether you apply the tape from "under the front to over the back" or vice versa, there will always be a wedge of space that wants to collects debris. It's just harder to get out of the "X" method. That's why I've contented myself with the "over the front to over the back" method....yes it's aerodynamically dirty, having a space underneath that can eddy air, but have we a really "clean" plane otherwise? Your diagrams are very understandable, Noel...good job. Lost Saturday? : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > Sunday afternoon and I can visualize the X system easy now... > Friday nights > not the best night of the week for me;-). > > I agree the X system allows for a light hinge on a model but a > place for > grass and leaves etc. To catch in the "Real thing". > > What I was thinking at first was a couple of pieces of say 2 1/2 > inch tape > sewn right down the middle and then one half of each tape doped to the > stabilizers with the other halves just finished to match the > plane. They > should be stiff enough to seal the gaps in flight. I'll attach a > couple of > rough diagrams... emphasis on the term rough! > > Noel ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:11 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report From: "Lowlead" I use a 3M 3372 polyurethane surface protection tape applied on both top and bottom of the gap (previous posts shown as >- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228084#228084 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/gapseal1_141.jpg ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:02 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report That's a good-looking job, LL. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying do not archive On Feb 1, 2009, at 8:01 PM, Lowlead wrote: > > I use a 3M 3372 polyurethane surface protection tape applied on > both top and bottom of the gap (previous posts shown as >- > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228084#228084 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/gapseal1_141.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:40 PM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fw: ski saver Just received this. Does it sound like the same material? Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 7:54 PM Subject: Re: ski saver > > Yes, > check this link on our bags/racks page > http://www.tognar.com/bags_racks_boot_ski_binding_snowboard_accessory.html > The top item is the scuff saver tape, > Thanks, > Cat > www.tognar.com > > >> Do you still have "ski saver" tape? Larry Huntley asq@roadrunner.com > Ye > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 6:02 PM ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:13 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fw: ski saver Larry=2C Thanks for the web link. I ordered 5 feed just to have on hand. Th at price for 14" wide clear tape is unreal. There are many times I wanted s ome of that tape to protect paint on a car=2C motorcycle tank=2C etc. I'll use it on the gap seal=2C Alla Lynn Matteson top side only. Lynn=2C if that curls down into the gap=2C rather than up=2C I don't know why anybody woul d use any other method. do not archive Pat ReillyMod 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL> From: asq@roadrun ner.com> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fw: ski saver > Date: Sun=2C 1 Feb 2009 20:38:03 -0500> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" > > Just received this. Does it sou nd like the same material? Larry> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Larry Huntley" > Sent: Sunday=2C February 01=2C 2009 7:54 PM> Subject: Re: ski saver> > > >> > Yes=2C> > che ck this link on our bags/racks page> > http://www.tognar.com/bags_racks_boo t_ski_binding_snowboard_accessory.html> > The top item is the scuff saver t ape=2C> > Thanks=2C> > Cat> > www.tognar.com> >> >> >> Do you still have "s ki saver" tape? Larry Huntley asq@roadrunner.com> > Ye> >> > > ------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > =====> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:23 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: ski saver From: "AKFLYERBOB" Larry What material are you talking about? I'm sure every one would like to know. Bob -------- Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska KF Mod I and III Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228098#228098 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:28 PM PST US From: Rexinator Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report That's exactly what I was trying to describe with my >-< symbol and my little drawn image file. I agree with Lynn that it's a nice job. Can you elaborate on how you applied so well? Rex Colorado M2/582 Lowlead wrote: > > I use a 3M 3372 polyurethane surface protection tape applied on both top and bottom of the gap (previous posts shown as >- > > > Read this topic online here: > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228084#228084 > > > Attachments: > http://forums.matronics.com//files/gapseal1_141.jpg > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: ski saver From: John Bonewitz We have a winner! I'm going to order some of this stuff. There are probably lots of other uses besides gap seal. Thanks, John Bonewitz Series 5 On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Larry Huntley wrote: > > Just received this. Does it sound like the same material? Larry > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "Larry Huntley" > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 7:54 PM > Subject: Re: ski saver > > >> Yes, >> check this link on our bags/racks page >> http://www.tognar.com/bags_racks_boot_ski_binding_snowboard_accessory.html >> The top item is the scuff saver tape, >> Thanks, >> Cat >> www.tognar.com >> >> >> Do you still have "ski saver" tape? Larry Huntley asq@roadrunner.com >>> >> Ye >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > 6:02 PM > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:00 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Kitfox-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Kitfox-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Kitfox-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Kitfox-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: kitfox-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "kitfox-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Kitfox-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/kitfox-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Kitfox-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Kitfox-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Kitfox-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kitfox ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kitfox-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:19 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Kitfox-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kitfox-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. 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