Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:42 AM - Re: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! (John W. Hart)
2. 06:06 AM - Re: Handpropping a 912 (Catz631@aol.com)
3. 06:28 AM - Re: Handpropping a 912 (Bob Brennan)
4. 06:43 AM - Re: 815TL finaly takes to the air!! (Daniel Wild)
5. 06:45 AM - Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! (WurlyBird)
6. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! (Lynn Matteson)
7. 08:22 AM - Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! (akflyer)
8. 08:54 AM - Tank repair (Jim Feldmann)
9. 09:39 AM - Re: Tank repair (Guy Buchanan)
10. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! (Guy Buchanan)
11. 09:45 AM - Re: Tank repair (Lynn Matteson)
12. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! (Lynn Matteson)
13. 10:13 AM - Re: Tank repair (Jim Feldmann)
14. 10:14 AM - Re: Tank repair (Tim Vader)
15. 10:21 AM - Re: 815TL finaly takes to the air!! (Marco Menezes)
16. 10:27 AM - Re: Tank repair (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
17. 12:08 PM - Re: 815TL finaly takes to the air!! (815TL)
18. 12:48 PM - Adding wing tanks (Bob Brennan)
19. 01:22 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
20. 01:54 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (akflyer)
21. 02:06 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (Bob Brennan)
22. 02:15 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (Tom Jones)
23. 02:26 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
24. 02:46 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
25. 03:05 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (Bob Brennan)
26. 03:15 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (Paul Franz)
27. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! (Noel Loveys)
28. 03:21 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (akflyer)
29. 04:34 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
30. 05:03 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (jdmcbean)
31. 05:40 PM - Re: Re: Adding wing tanks (Lynn Matteson)
32. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: Adding wing tanks (Bob Brennan)
33. 09:40 PM - Handpropping a 912 (John Allen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! |
Well, I spent 26 years as a military helicopter pilot and maintenance
officer and haven't heard rod end bearings referred to as anything other
than rod end bearings on a helicopter.
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Jones
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !
> I just never
> heard of this device called a spherical "bolt"...which, of course, it
> is not...a "bolt" that is.
Lynn, you have to of been around helicopters to get the lingo.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229467#229467
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| Subject: | Re: Handpropping a 912 |
Don't hand prop a 912 ! Again to refer to my Rotax class at Lockwood ,Dean
(the instructor) said he had heard of two guys that successfully did it but both
said they would NEVER attempt it again !. Keep in mind you have to get the
prop to 200 rpm before the ignition kicks in. Odds are you will stick your hands
into the just started engine as you have to get the prop moving so fast and
it raps up to 1800 rpm like now !. Talk about a meat cleaver!
Dick Maddux
Fox 4-1200
912 Ul
Pensacola,Fl
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. AOL Music takes you there.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000002)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Handpropping a 912 |
Gary - if you're worried about getting stuck on a frozen lake with a dead
battery - carry a spare battery!
As others have advised, handpropping could spoil your day, if not your life.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
Subject: Handpropping a 912
From:
<mailto:kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com?subject=Re:%20Handpropping%20a%20912&re
plyto=OFC7FF6EF1.B6B0049C-ON85257558.007BA9E9-85257558.007BB43F@decisionlabs
.com> kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com
Date: Mon Feb 09 - 2:33 PM
Anyone ever do this successfully? Was looking to do some ski flying, but
spending the winter on a frozen lake with a dead battery does not seem
appealing. I think if heard of someone handpropping a 912...but never a
912s.
Any feedback?
Gary Walsh
KF IV Anphib 912S
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 815TL finaly takes to the air!! |
The only accurate way to tell if your temps are right is to yank the plugs
and look at the to see what color they are.
Dan Wild
532 mdl1
--------------------------------------------------
From: "815TL" <lawrenceaw@corning.com>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:03 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 815TL finaly takes to the air!!
Well, not for the first time, but for the first time with me in it as it's
new owner.
I traveled 1100miles in July to go pick it up. Then we had to replace some
rod ends, and inspect everything well. Everything seemed to be ready to go,
and starter problems cropped up. By the time I got it fixed, the weather
had turned bad, then illness set in for a couple of weeks.
I thought we were ready to go with it last weekend, when I found that I was
sold a bad used intercom, and a tach issue. A new TinyTach, and a new
intercom, and it was ready to go today.
My instructor and I flew it for about 2 hours. Did some basic turns,
stalls, stuff like that. The airplane flew well, and ran pretty good except
for one slight misfire on descent. My instructor was very pleased with how
it files, and handles.
I could not be happier to finally get it up in the air, and to start
learning on it. The feel was not all that much different than the gliders I
used to fly, if anything it required less input from the controls.
I would like to thank Larry Huntly once again for all the help he has given
me in this endeavor. Without his input, I would still be sitting on the
ramp, scratching my head.
OK, now for one question about the 582. I think we found the issue was that
we were running the engine way to rich, but I wanted to ask anyway. On the
ground it would not really smooth out till over 2500RPM. In the air at
5200RPM, it was fine, but on descent around 4000RPM, we felt a couple of
stumbles. We were keeping the setting verry rich, as we did not want the
EGT to go above 1100*. Once on the ground again, we leaned it way out, and
were able to get smooth idle at 1900RPM.
Using the Hacman mixture control, how many turns to the left to lean it out,
on a typical day? The one EGT was reading around 1100* already, the other
about 950-1000*. I did not want to get it too hot, but it may be reading a
bit high.
Andrew
815TL, Kitfox II, Rotax 582-C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229439#229439
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| Subject: | Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! |
Sorry about the bolt mixup. Our tail rotors have very similar looking parts and
I have a tendency to make my words only accurate enough to get people to understand
me. So yeah, rod ends. And here is what I have going on.
Some of the rod ends were able to slide back and forth on the bolt which held it
in place. This was some of the slop that I found, I put washers in to keep
the rod end from slipping.
There are a few locations where the bolt holding the rod end is able to wiggle
a little in the outer holes. So even if it had a nice new snug rod end there
would be some play. So what is the solution for an area like this?
--------
Prospective Kitfox buyer
Here for information on airframes and engines
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229530#229530
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! |
I have a tendency to use MORE words than is necessary, so we ought to
be able to come to a good understandable average. : )
When you say "There are a few locations where the bolt holding the
rod end is able to wiggle a little in the outer holes." I assume by
"the bolt holding the rod end" you mean the bolt that goes through
the spherical bearing in the rod end, correct? Let's call that the
"cross bolt" or a "pivot bolt" to differentiate it from the threaded
end of the linkage that the rod end bearing screws onto. Now when you
say "wiggle a little in the outer holes"...where are these "outer
holes" you refer to? I'm looking at my builder's manual, and I'm not
seeing any "outer holes", so I think we need to get to the heart of
the matter here first. Unless I'm missing something, there are no
outer holes...which might suggest selectable holes...in my manual, or
on my plane, so I'm trying to find out where these holes are that you
refer to. I'm starting to imagine that maybe a builder had drilled
some extra holes into certain parts to modify the control surfaces,
and if so, you might want to think again about buying this plane.
Can you take pictures of the parts in question...from various angles?
Don't spare the words...or the pictures in this case. People need to
see exactly what parts you are talking about so they can help you
decide whether this plane has been altered, and if so, if it is safe
to continue on with it....my opinion only.
Looking back over your previous posts, it sounds like the builder
"reamed every single hole over size."...your words. I'm starting to
get very nervous about this build, and I think you should too.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 10, 2009, at 9:44 AM, WurlyBird wrote:
> <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> Sorry about the bolt mixup. Our tail rotors have very similar
> looking parts and I have a tendency to make my words only accurate
> enough to get people to understand me. So yeah, rod ends. And
> here is what I have going on.
>
> Some of the rod ends were able to slide back and forth on the bolt
> which held it in place. This was some of the slop that I found, I
> put washers in to keep the rod end from slipping.
>
> There are a few locations where the bolt holding the rod end is
> able to wiggle a little in the outer holes. So even if it had a
> nice new snug rod end there would be some play. So what is the
> solution for an area like this?
>
> --------
> Prospective Kitfox buyer
> Here for information on airframes and engines
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229530#229530
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! |
Lynn, I am just gonna toss a little snake oil out here....
I am thinking (that gets me into alot of trouble) that the outer hole whurlygigahelichopter
is referring to would be the "fork" that the bolt goes through in
which the heim joint is captured. Say the flaperon mixer for instance. On the
back side of the flap handle, under the seat the handle has a fork in which
the rod end bolts through. Whurly gig a guy is saying that the forks were reamed
out to big so now the bolt hole has slop in it. The only answer to that is
new parts, weld build up and reaming to he proper size, or is there is enough
"meat" you could drill oversize for a bushing.
snakeman.... out
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229547#229547
Message 8
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I have the fiberglass wing tanks. They have been sloshed and they look very good
inside, except for some small spots directly under the filler cap. Apparently
ham-handed gas jockeys have hit the bottom of the tank with the nozzle and
broken through the slosh coating and now the glass is deteriorating.
I can reach those spots easily, but I don't know what to use to repair them. As
an RC modeler for many years, my first choice would be Cyanoacrylate (Super
Glue). Has anyone had good results with anything else?
What should I use to clean the area before repairing it?
Thanks
--------
Jim Feldmann, 3rd owner
1994 Kitfox IV Speedster / 912
Down for engine work
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229555#229555
Message 9
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At 08:53 AM 2/10/2009, you wrote:
>I have the fiberglass wing tanks. They have been sloshed and they
>look very good inside, except for some small spots directly under
>the filler cap. Apparently ham-handed gas jockeys have hit the
>bottom of the tank with the nozzle and broken through the slosh
>coating and now the glass is deteriorating.
Jim,
What's failed, the Kreem coating, or is the glass shattered?
If the Kreem coating I assume you could rub the local area with MEK
to form some kind of blend, then re-coat with Kreem. I don't know how
fuel resistant CYA is, or whether it would bond to Kreem, which is
what you want to have happen.
If the glass has been locally damaged, then you're right,
thin CYA can often be wicked into the fibers to stabilize the matrix.
You'd then want to re-coat locally with Kreem. Just whatever you do,
don't use a heat gun on it. ;-)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! |
At 06:44 AM 2/10/2009, you wrote:
>Some of the rod ends were able to slide back and forth on the bolt
>which held it in place. This was some of the slop that I found, I
>put washers in to keep the rod end from slipping.
>
>There are a few locations where the bolt holding the rod end is able
>to wiggle a little in the outer holes. So even if it had a nice new
>snug rod end there would be some play. So what is the solution for
>an area like this?
James,
(I hope it's James. I do wish you'd put your name, location,
and aircraft type / status in your signature.) With a rod end you're
expected to torque the bolt through the ball to maximum. This helps
prevent any slop between the bolt and ball and between the bolt and
clevis. (The outer holes.) It's particularly useful in low-load
implementations like control systems. The only slop you should have
should be in the rod end itself, and that should be negligible. Of
course you'll have to make sure the rod end fits the clevis closely
before you torque so you don't bend the clevis, but it sounds like
you've already done that by adding washers. Above all, keep asking
the questions. The web is a horrible medium for fixing problems but
it seems like we nearly always get there eventually. (Also, if you
put your location in your signature, many times a nearby "expert"
pipes up and offers to help in-person.)
Respectfully,
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 11
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Why not use what the tank is built from...fiberglass. If it was me,
I'd clean the area with MEK or acetone, stick a Dremel in there to
scuff it up, or a long dowel with sandpaper glued to the end, or any
other such tool to roughen the area, then apply some chopped
fiberglass and resin to the area for reinforcement, and finally
follow up with a new Kreem treatment, if this is what it had before.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 10, 2009, at 11:53 AM, Jim Feldmann wrote:
> <feldesign@earthlink.net>
>
> I have the fiberglass wing tanks. They have been sloshed and they
> look very good inside, except for some small spots directly under
> the filler cap. Apparently ham-handed gas jockeys have hit the
> bottom of the tank with the nozzle and broken through the slosh
> coating and now the glass is deteriorating.
>
> I can reach those spots easily, but I don't know what to use to
> repair them. As an RC modeler for many years, my first choice
> would be Cyanoacrylate (Super Glue). Has anyone had good results
> with anything else?
>
> What should I use to clean the area before repairing it?
>
> Thanks
>
> --------
> Jim Feldmann, 3rd owner
> 1994 Kitfox IV Speedster / 912
> Down for engine work
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229555#229555
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! |
I got rather confused with the early reports of "30+ spherical bolts"
and "every single spherical bolt in the system, there is about 16 per
side I think", and didn't pay this thread too much attention,
thinking we had a person who...pardon my straight-forward
analysis...didn't know what he was talking about or didn't/couldn't
explain himself, but now I'm intrigued, and would like to get to the
bottom of the problem.
I'm also a bit nervous for this new owner AND the flight instructor
who went up with him, if all these holes are as bad as he says they are.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 10, 2009, at 11:21 AM, akflyer wrote:
>
> Lynn, I am just gonna toss a little snake oil out here....
>
> I am thinking (that gets me into alot of trouble) that the outer
> hole whurlygigahelichopter is referring to would be the "fork" that
> the bolt goes through in which the heim joint is captured. Say the
> flaperon mixer for instance. On the back side of the flap handle,
> under the seat the handle has a fork in which the rod end bolts
> through. Whurly gig a guy is saying that the forks were reamed out
> to big so now the bolt hole has slop in it. The only answer to
> that is new parts, weld build up and reaming to he proper size, or
> is there is enough "meat" you could drill oversize for a bushing.
>
> snakeman.... out
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229547#229547
>
>
Message 13
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Thanks guys'
I don't know what the slosh material is. The builders documentation does not mention
it. I also don't know whether the fiberglass resin is polyester or epoxy.
As you probably know, applying one type over the other does not work. Maybe
John McBean can tell me which was used in this 1992 kit.
CA is 100% fuel proof (gas, oil and methanol) but as you point out, there may be
issues with it adhering to the slosh material. I will do a test.
I have Acetone on hand. Will that work as well as MEK for cleaning?
Jim
--------
Jim Feldmann, 3rd owner
1994 Kitfox IV Speedster / 912
Down for engine work
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229571#229571
Message 14
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Jim
When rebuilding my wings I sloshed the tanks with an epoxy resin from
Caswell Coatings. While the resin was still drying I cut an aluminum disc
the size of the filler neck and dropped it in the tank. I positioned it
directly below the filler neck and when the epoxy was nearly dry I poured a
bit more over top to cover the disc. Hopefully thiswill protect the tank
bottom from just the damage you describe.
Tim Vader
Kitfox IV
2276 cc Great Plains
Calgary Alberta
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Feldmann" <feldesign@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:53 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Tank repair
> <feldesign@earthlink.net>
>
> I have the fiberglass wing tanks. They have been sloshed and they look
> very good inside, except for some small spots directly under the filler
> cap. Apparently ham-handed gas jockeys have hit the bottom of the tank
> with the nozzle and broken through the slosh coating and now the glass is
> deteriorating.
>
> I can reach those spots easily, but I don't know what to use to repair
> them. As an RC modeler for many years, my first choice would be
> Cyanoacrylate (Super Glue). Has anyone had good results with anything
> else?
>
> What should I use to clean the area before repairing it?
>
> Thanks
>
> --------
> Jim Feldmann, 3rd owner
> 1994 Kitfox IV Speedster / 912
> Down for engine work
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229555#229555
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 815TL finaly takes to the air!! |
Andrew,
-
Congradulations!
-
Hiccups at 4000 rpm are probably due to over-rich setting on mid-range jet
needles.- (I'm guessing your EGT's are pretty low when this happens?) Try
moving the circlip on each carb up one notch (leaner). My experience with
the Hac-Man is-that you just keep turning it until the EGTs reach accepta
ble levels for the desired power setting.-As Guy said, it's-a-pretty
fine adjustment, not alot-to-be gained or lost throughout the-Hac-Man
's full range. The-macro adjustments are done through carb jetting (parti
cularly mid-range) and prop pitch.
-
What are you getting for max rpms, static at WOT with-your current-jett
ing and pitch?
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch-
--- On Mon, 2/9/09, 815TL <lawrenceaw@corning.com> wrote:
From: 815TL <lawrenceaw@corning.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 815TL finaly takes to the air!!
<lawrenceaw@corning.com>
Well, not for the first time, but for the first time with me in it as it's
new owner.
I traveled 1100miles in July to go pick it up. Then we had to replace some
rod
ends, and inspect everything well. Everything seemed to be ready to go, an
d
starter problems cropped up. By the time I got it fixed, the weather had t
urned
bad, then illness set in for a couple of weeks.
I thought we were ready to go with it last weekend, when I found that I was
sold a bad used intercom, and a tach issue. A new TinyTach, and a new inte
rcom,
and it was ready to go today.
My instructor and I flew it for about 2 hours. Did some basic turns, stall
s,
stuff like that. The airplane flew well, and ran pretty good except for on
e
slight misfire on descent. My instructor was very pleased with how it file
s,
and handles.
I could not be happier to finally get it up in the air, and to start learni
ng
on it. The feel was not all that much different than the gliders I used to
fly,
if anything it required less input from the controls.
I would like to thank Larry Huntly once again for all the help he has given
me
in this endeavor. Without his input, I would still be sitting on the ramp,
scratching my head.
OK, now for one question about the 582. I think we found the issue was tha
t we
were running the engine way to rich, but I wanted to ask anyway. On the gr
ound
it would not really smooth out till over 2500RPM. In the air at 5200RPM, i
t was
fine, but on descent around 4000RPM, we felt a couple of stumbles. We were
keeping the setting verry rich, as we did not want the EGT to go above 1100
*.
Once on the ground again, we leaned it way out, and were able to get smooth
idle
at 1900RPM.
Using the Hacman mixture control, how many turns to the left to lean it out
, on
a typical day? The one EGT was reading around 1100* already, the other abo
ut
950-1000*. I did not want to get it too hot, but it may be reading a bit h
igh.
Andrew
815TL, Kitfox II, Rotax 582-C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229439#229439
=0A=0A=0A
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On Tue, February 10, 2009 9:44 am, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> ..... and finally
> follow up with a new Kreem treatment, if this is what it had before.
Can this be done in a small area? I suspect you have to slosh the whole thing with
Kreem. If that's the case, he may as well have sloshed with solvent (MEK) to begin
with, do the Fiberglas repairs as you suggest then reslosh with Kreem and thinner.
No matter which alternative is chosen for the repair, something has to be done
as a
preventative measure to keep this type of damage from recurring. My suggestion
is to
fabricate aluminum sleeves that can be inserted into the tank filler that have
a
collar on them to prevent them from bottoming out in the tank by resting on the
filler
neck. These sleeves should protrude far enough out of the tank such that the typical
fuel filler nozzle can no longer bottom out in the tank causing the damage to occur.
You just carry the slip in sleeves with you. Probably only one is needed if it
will
fit the other fill points. The sleeve could be made with a nice tang on it for
connecting the ground wire when filling too.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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| Subject: | Re: 815TL finaly takes to the air!! |
Thank you everyone for your input. I am fairly certain that the stumbe was indeed
caused by the extreemly lean setting. We were trying to keep the 1 EGT low,
which allowed for real low on the other. I believe the sensor may be lieing
a little bit. I am going to swap sensor locations and see if it follows, or
if it is something with that cylinder.
Full throttle RPM was lower than what it should be, I recall seeing over 6K, but
not sure how high, maybe 6300. I think most of that was due to prop pitch,
which for now I am not going to mess with, and being extreemley rich.
Andrew
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229593#229593
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| Subject: | Adding wing tanks |
Hey all,
I'm starting to dream of some cross-country adventures as soon as my mud
strip becomes a grass strip again. A large part of my planning would involve
where to stop to refuel and how to get decent mogas. Not to start any new
mogas vs 100LL discussions or recommendations as to the strength of my
bladder and/or constitution - I saved this link from Noel:
http://www.wingtanks.com
I currently have the 9+ gallon in-the-dash tank plus a 6 gallon aluminum
reserve tank in the starboard wing. I like the look of the 6 gallon tanks on
the website and am thinking that 2 of them in the port wing with a valve in
the line as an additional 10+ gallon dump-in-flight reserve tank could get
me to where I want to go without stops. The extra weight of the fuel would
not matter as it would be just me and some camping gear, and if I carried a
passenger I obviously would just not carry as much reserve or go as far.
Can anyone advise as to why this might be a dumb idea? I know you guys
*love* to point out dumb ideas... ;-)
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
On Tue, February 10, 2009 12:47 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:
> I'm starting to dream of some cross-country adventures as soon as my mud
> strip becomes a grass strip again. A large part of my planning would involve
> where to stop to refuel and how to get decent mogas.
Here's the ticket to fuel stop planning.
<http://www.airnav.com/plan/fuel/>
You can pick the type of strips you prefer and the fuel required.
A long time ago I did the flight planning for Miguel Ramirez' first trips into
the US
including his trip to Sun 'n Fun using this tool.
One thing to consider as a possibility for doing some long legs without passenger
is
doing something like Michael Gordillo did with his KF 4 on his round the world
trip to
OSH. He used a fuel bladder. Something you could easily remove when not needed
and
would not require the investment and labor of installing custom tanks which you
normally don't need.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
[quote="matronics(at)bob.brennan."]Hey all,
I'm starting to dream of some cross-country adventures as soon as my mud strip
becomes a grass strip again. A large part of my planning would involve where
to stop to refuel and how to get decent mogas. Not to start any new mogas vs
100LL discussions or recommendations as to the strength of my bladder and/or
constitution - I saved this link from Noel:
http://www.wingtanks.com (http://www.wingtanks.com)
I currently have the 9+ gallon in-the-dash tank plus a 6 gallon aluminum reserve
tank in the starboard wing. I like the look of the 6 gallon tanks on the website
and am thinking that 2 of them in the port wing with a valve in the line
as an additional 10+ gallon dump-in-flight reserve tank could get me to where
I want to go without stops. The extra weight of the fuel would not matter
as it would be just me and some camping gear, and if I carried a passenger I
obviously would just not carry as much reserve or go as far.
Can anyone advise as to why this might be a dumb idea? I know you guys *love*
to point out dumb ideas... ;-)
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
> [b]
Bob,
My Brothers old KF II has the 9 gallon nose tank and a 12 gallon wing tank. On
wheels and floats, it was not uncommon for me to top the tanks and put another
12 gallons strapped to the float and 12 gallons in the seat next to me. The
plane will carry the weight, just stay out of bad turbulence and grease the landings
when loaded real heavy. I am certain that the "gross" weight has a little
fudge factor built in.
Course, this is only personal experience over a couple hundred hours in his plane
so take it as snake oil if you feel the need LOL.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229609#229609
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| Subject: | Adding wing tanks |
Thanks for the reply Paul but I've used airnav before but for the trip I am
planning, for instance, from K8N7 to KLUK it only comes up with 1 possible
stop that sells mogas. More than 100 miles out of the way and the airport
info does not actually state that they sell mogas.
My actual question to the list is, disregarding the time and expense to
install the tanks or alternative ways of getting fuel, how smart/hard is it
to install the tanks at wingtanks.com in a Model 2? I am assuming it is a
matter or opening up the top of the wing, gluing the tanks in, running the
lines, and new fabric and paint. No major structural changes or gotchas that
I might discover after opening the wing and spending the money on the tanks?
Anyone on the list actually installed these tanks in a completed Kitfox?
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz -
Merlin GT
Sent: 10 February 2009 4:21 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Adding wing tanks
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Tue, February 10, 2009 12:47 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:
> I'm starting to dream of some cross-country adventures as soon as my mud
> strip becomes a grass strip again. A large part of my planning would
involve
> where to stop to refuel and how to get decent mogas.
Here's the ticket to fuel stop planning.
<http://www.airnav.com/plan/fuel/>
You can pick the type of strips you prefer and the fuel required.
A long time ago I did the flight planning for Miguel Ramirez' first trips
into the US
including his trip to Sun 'n Fun using this tool.
One thing to consider as a possibility for doing some long legs without
passenger is
doing something like Michael Gordillo did with his KF 4 on his round the
world trip to
OSH. He used a fuel bladder. Something you could easily remove when not
needed and
would not require the investment and labor of installing custom tanks which
you
normally don't need.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
> Can anyone advise as to why this might be a dumb idea? I know you guys *love*
to point out dumb ideas...
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
>
> http://www.wingtanks.com/
Bob, the information I can't see on that web site is if there is some structural
component to replace the drag/anti drag tubes that would be removed from the
wing when installing the tanks in a wing with no original tank. It could be
a good modification, I would want to know more before diving in to it though.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229614#229614
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| Subject: | Adding wing tanks |
You might try a search in the Avid Yahoo group's archives. I think Steve W
inder posted some info on installing the tanks a while back. Jim Chuk A
vid MK IV Mn> From: matronics@bob.brennan.name> To: kitfox-list@matronics
.com> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Adding wing tanks> Date: Tue=2C 10 Feb 2009
ics@bob.brennan.name>> > Thanks for the reply Paul but I've used airnav bef
ore but for the trip I am> planning=2C for instance=2C from K8N7 to KLUK it
only comes up with 1 possible> stop that sells mogas. More than 100 miles
out of the way and the airport> info does not actually state that they sell
mogas.> > My actual question to the list is=2C disregarding the time and e
xpense to> install the tanks or alternative ways of getting fuel=2C how sma
rt/hard is it> to install the tanks at wingtanks.com in a Model 2? I am ass
uming it is a> matter or opening up the top of the wing=2C gluing the tanks
in=2C running the> lines=2C and new fabric and paint. No major structural
changes or gotchas that> I might discover after opening the wing and spendi
ng the money on the tanks?> > > Anyone on the list actually installed these
tanks in a completed Kitfox?> > Bob Brennan - N717GB> ELSA Repairman=2C in
spection rated> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop> W
rightsville Pa > > -----Original Message-----> From: owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Paul Franz -> Merlin GT> Sent: 10 February 2009 4:21 pm> To: kitfox-lis
t@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Adding wing tanks> > --> Kitfox-
List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"> <paul@eucleides.com>> > O
n Tue=2C February 10=2C 2009 12:47 pm=2C Bob Brennan wrote:> > > I'm starti
ng to dream of some cross-country adventures as soon as my mud> > strip bec
omes a grass strip again. A large part of my planning would> involve> > whe
re to stop to refuel and how to get decent mogas.> > Here's the ticket to f
uel stop planning.> > <http://www.airnav.com/plan/fuel/>> > You can pick th
e type of strips you prefer and the fuel required.> > A long time ago I did
the flight planning for Miguel Ramirez' first trips> into the US> includin
g his trip to Sun 'n Fun using this tool.> > One thing to consider as a pos
sibility for doing some long legs without> passenger is> doing something li
ke Michael Gordillo did with his KF 4 on his round the> world trip to> OSH.
He used a fuel bladder. Something you could easily remove when not> needed
and> would not require the investment and labor of installing custom tanks
which> you> normally don't need.> > -- > Paul A. Franz> Registration/Aircr
aft - N14UW/Merlin GT> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP> Bellevue WA> 425.24
=====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live=99: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_0
22009
Message 24
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| Subject: | Adding wing tanks |
On Tue, February 10, 2009 1:58 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply Paul but I've used airnav before but for the trip I am
> planning, for instance, from K8N7 to KLUK
Could you provide a nearby town and state for those two or lat lon? I couldn't
find
either of those in my directory search.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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| Subject: | Adding wing tanks |
It's a trip from Columbia Pa to Cincinnati Ohio, where I haven't yet decided
on a small airport near Cincinnati and picked KLUK as the nearest to my
destination. I would be visiting my daughter and her family and expect to
refuel using gas cans and going to a local gas station. I expect the trip to
be between 4 and 5 hours and with my current 16 gallons I can easily go 3.5
hours with reserves, it would be nice to go that little extra without
stopping and with a permanently and properly installed solution. The point
is I would rather not land to get mogas, or 100LL, or even pour in some I
brought with me in a gerry can; and am hoping that wingtanks.com might be a
viable alternative.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz -
Merlin GT
Sent: 10 February 2009 5:45 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Adding wing tanks
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Tue, February 10, 2009 1:58 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Thanks for the reply Paul but I've used airnav before but for the trip I
am
> planning, for instance, from K8N7 to KLUK
Could you provide a nearby town and state for those two or lat lon? I
couldn't find
either of those in my directory search.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 26
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| Subject: | Adding wing tanks |
On Tue, February 10, 2009 1:58 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply Paul but I've used airnav before but for the trip I am
> planning, for instance, from K8N7 to KLUK it only comes up with 1 possible
> stop that sells mogas. More than 100 miles out of the way and the airport
> info does not actually state that they sell mogas.
This route is only 10 miles more than the great circle route. Fuel stop pretty
close
to the middle.
<http://www.airnav.com/cgi-bin/fuelroute/M/8N7-3PN9-LUK>
This route only adds about 31 miles and is a sure bet for fuel.
<http://www.airnav.com/cgi-bin/fuelroute/M/8N7-1OA7-LUK>
The trick is to call the airport first and tell them that you're wanting to stop
for
fuel and you'll be coming in an experimental aircraft. My experience is that you'll
be
give the red carpet treatment at a small field. Offer to buy the guy who answers
the
phone lunch for giving you the help. You'll likely meet a new friend and this will
just add to the fun of the adventure of traveling.
Fuel at Phil Cain call 724-468-5482 - the only fuel they have is MoGas!
Fuel at Yoder call 330-875-8800
You might want to revisit AirNav.
When Miguel flew from San Luis Potosi Mexico his first stop in the US wa to clear
customs was McAllen TX. From there I found stops for him no more than 2.5 hours
apart
all the way to Sun 'n Fun. I made the first few calls for him and reported my findings
and Miguel caught on to this and had an absolutely wonderful experience in his
KF
model 4. Especially at small and private fields. He had all kinds of offers to
use a
car, for a place to stay and even free hangar overnight space.
--
Paul Franz
425.440.9505 (O)
425.241.1618 (C)
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? ! |
.001 brass shimstock??
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Problem with FLUTTER ? ! ? !
At 06:44 AM 2/10/2009, you wrote:
Some of the rod ends were able to slide back and forth on the bolt which
held it in place. This was some of the slop that I found, I put washers in
to keep the rod end from slipping.
There are a few locations where the bolt holding the rod end is able to
wiggle a little in the outer holes. So even if it had a nice new snug rod
end there would be some play. So what is the solution for an area like
this?
James,
(I hope it's James. I do wish you'd put your name, location, and
aircraft type / status in your signature.) With a rod end you're expected to
torque the bolt through the ball to maximum. This helps prevent any slop
between the bolt and ball and between the bolt and clevis. (The outer
holes.) It's particularly useful in low-load implementations like control
systems. The only slop you should have should be in the rod end itself, and
that should be negligible. Of course you'll have to make sure the rod end
fits the clevis closely before you torque so you don't bend the clevis, but
it sounds like you've already done that by adding washers. Above all, keep
asking the questions. The web is a horrible medium for fixing problems but
it seems like we nearly always get there eventually. (Also, if you put your
location in your signature, many times a nearby "expert" pipes up and offers
to help in-person.)
Respectfully,
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
Bob, the website says they install in an afternoon, and go in either wing etc.
on the FAQ tab. Why dont you email the manufacture at sales@wingtanks.com
They can answer all your questions first hand.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229631#229631
Message 29
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| Subject: | Adding wing tanks |
On Tue, February 10, 2009 3:02 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:
>
> It's a trip from Columbia Pa to Cincinnati Ohio, where I haven't yet decided
> on a small airport near Cincinnati and picked KLUK as the nearest to my
> destination.
You probably would like Clermont County Airport (I69) a little better fora KF
destination. It's about 10 miles from LUK.
<http://www.airnav.com/airport/I69>
I'd phone them before finalizing your destination.
Another nice little airport not too far from your route is the Fayette County Airport
(I23):
<http://www.airnav.com/airport/I23>
You could probably make that your first and only fuel stop too.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 30
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| Subject: | Adding wing tanks |
Bob,
This discussion was talked about at length sometime ago. Please
check the archives. There are several issues regarding the installation of
these tanks on a Kitfox wing.. The drag-anti-drag being an important one and
the plywood across the bottom has it's own issues. There are also issues
with cross linked PE with expansion and heat. A wing with color on it could
get very hot inside. And another important item.. The wing has not been
structurally tested with that installation. Not to mention the weight of
the installation.
We also have tanks that are using ethanol resistant resins and are available
for all the models.. in 6 and 13 gallon capacity.
Fly Safe !!
John McBean
Ph 208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:59 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Adding wing tanks
--> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Anyone on the list actually installed these tanks in a completed Kitfox?
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
Yeah, install in an afternoon and end up with as crappy a job as
their photos show....sorry, but I'd rather take some time and do the
job a *little* more professionally.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 10, 2009, at 6:21 PM, akflyer wrote:
>
> Bob, the website says they install in an afternoon, and go in
> either wing etc. on the FAQ tab. Why dont you email the
> manufacture at sales@wingtanks.com
>
> They can answer all your questions first hand.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229631#229631
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
Well first of all it looks like they are removing some ribs, and the
"drag/anti-drag tubes" that Tom Jones mentions - that worries me...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/photos/album/353762308/pic/list
John McBean - could you please advise on the "tanks that are using ethanol
resistant resins and are available for all the models.. in 6 and 13 gallon
capacity" that you are selling for a Model 2? I much prefer to buy from you.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: 10 February 2009 8:40 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Adding wing tanks
Yeah, install in an afternoon and end up with as crappy a job as
their photos show....sorry, but I'd rather take some time and do the
job a *little* more professionally.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 10, 2009, at 6:21 PM, akflyer wrote:
>
> Bob, the website says they install in an afternoon, and go in
> either wing etc. on the FAQ tab. Why dont you email the
> manufacture at sales@wingtanks.com
>
> They can answer all your questions first hand.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229631#229631
>
>
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| Subject: | Handpropping a 912 |
Gary Walsh asked: Anyone ever do this successfully? Was looking to do some ski
flying, but spending the winter on a frozen lake with a dead battery does not
seem appealing. I think if heard of someone handpropping a 912...but never
a 912s.
I have hand propped a 912UL when the battery was low. It cannot be completely
dead, though; it needs some battery to excite the alternator. If you are used
to Continentals or Lycomings, watch out! Instead of sputtering to life it roars
instantly to life at a fast RPM, and three blades come around faster than
two. Also, you should not turn it backwards to try to unflood it.
JA KF IV @ O70
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