Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:31 AM - Re: Adding wing tanks (dholly)
2. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: Adding wing tanks (Lynn Matteson)
3. 05:49 AM - Re: Adding wing tanks (Lynn Matteson)
4. 07:18 AM - Re: Handpropping a 912 (eskflyer)
5. 07:28 AM - Re: Adding wing tanks (eskflyer)
6. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: Handpropping a 912 (fox5flyer)
7. 08:03 AM - Re: Adding wing tanks (akflyer)
8. 08:20 AM - battery location (clemwehner)
9. 09:17 AM - Re: Adding wing tanks (AKFLYERBOB)
10. 09:37 AM - Re: Re: Adding wing tanks (Bob Brennan)
11. 09:43 AM - Re: battery location (Dee Young)
12. 10:44 AM - Re: battery location (Clint Bazzill)
13. 11:04 AM - Re: battery location (Dee Young)
14. 11:47 AM - Re: battery location (Clint Bazzill)
15. 12:33 PM - Re: battery location (Noel Loveys)
16. 01:09 PM - Re: battery location (Dee Young)
17. 01:20 PM - Re: Handpropping a 912 (eskflyer)
18. 01:48 PM - Re: battery location (Clint Bazzill)
19. 02:10 PM - Re: battery location (Dee Young)
20. 02:36 PM - Re: Re: Handpropping a 912 (John W. Hart)
21. 03:08 PM - Re: battery location (Lynn Matteson)
22. 03:22 PM - Re: battery location (Clint Bazzill)
23. 03:49 PM - insurance while building (clemwehner)
24. 04:09 PM - KFM Battery Size (Dee Young)
25. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Handpropping a 912 (Randy Daughenbaugh)
26. 04:22 PM - Re: insurance while building (Clint Bazzill)
27. 04:29 PM - Re: insurance while building (Weiss Richard)
28. 04:39 PM - Re: KFM Battery Size (Dee Young)
29. 05:01 PM - Re: insurance while building (Tom Jones)
30. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Handpropping a 912 (Brian Morissette)
31. 07:02 PM - Re: battery location (Noel Loveys)
32. 07:12 PM - Re: Re: Handpropping a 912 (Noel Loveys)
33. 07:22 PM - Re: Handpropping a 912 (vetdrem)
34. 07:30 PM - Re: KFM Battery Size (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
35. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: Handpropping a 912 (Noel Loveys)
36. 08:22 PM - Re: KFM Battery Size (Dee Young)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
John-
Can you provide new 13gal tanks both L/R for 1-1/2" twist .083 144" long spar wings?
Thanks
jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf wrote:
>
>
> We also have tanks that are using ethanol resistant resins and are available
for all the models.. in 6 and 13 gallon capacity.
>
>
> Fly Safe !!
> John McBean
> Ph 208.337.5111
> www.kitfoxaircraft.com
> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>
--------
Airdale Avid+ project | Jab2200 | Aerocet 1100 Amphibs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229696#229696
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
Bob and dholly-
You'd be better off contacting John and Debra McBean directly with
these questions...they have both said in the past that they don't
always have the time to go to this website and look for questions
addressed to them. Yes, John has responded to the current thread, but
if he gets busy, he may not see your followup question to him. I'm
just passing on what he has told me in person.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 10, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Well first of all it looks like they are removing some ribs, and the
> "drag/anti-drag tubes" that Tom Jones mentions - that worries me...
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/photos/album/353762308/pic/
> list
>
> John McBean - could you please advise on the "tanks that are using
> ethanol
> resistant resins and are available for all the models.. in 6 and 13
> gallon
> capacity" that you are selling for a Model 2? I much prefer to buy
> from you.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
I69 is a friendly little non-towered airport with a nice pilot shop
contained within. You might have heard of it...it's called Sporty's.
A friend and I stopped there ...separate planes...on a windy day,
that got windier as we dawdled there. The airport manager looked the
other way when I used one of the "high-speed runway turn-offs" as my
takeoff runway (so as to better align myself with the wind
direction). When I asked him if I could do this, he said "ok, we'll
just look the other way." Well, he might have looked the other way,
but there were plenty of flight instructors and their students
looking my way when I did it. I used part of the parallel taxiway to
get rolling, turned onto the high-speed turnoff, gave it full power,
and was off the ground before I got to the runway. You may not need
to do this in your Cessna, (my buddy didn't) but you surely wouldn't
want to try. The Kitfox handled it with ease. I just wasn't that sure
of myself at the time with that much crosswind, so I was just not
taking any chances.
Anyway, the point is, I69 is close to commerce, and friendly, and
might even have a loaner car so you could get the mogas that you need.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 10, 2009, at 7:32 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Tue, February 10, 2009 3:02 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:
>> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>>
>> It's a trip from Columbia Pa to Cincinnati Ohio, where I haven't
>> yet decided
>> on a small airport near Cincinnati and picked KLUK as the nearest
>> to my
>> destination.
>
> You probably would like Clermont County Airport (I69) a little
> better fora KF
> destination. It's about 10 miles from LUK.
>
> <http://www.airnav.com/airport/I69>
>
> I'd phone them before finalizing your destination.
>
> Another nice little airport not too far from your route is the
> Fayette County Airport
> (I23):
>
> <http://www.airnav.com/airport/I23>
>
> You could probably make that your first and only fuel stop too.
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Handpropping a 912 |
My fox had a 582 and three blade prop . Hand propped it many times . no problem
after you pull it threw you wait to put your hand back up to pull it around again
. If you dont you a dumb-ass and dont like your hands very much. For the
ones of you afraid to hand prop a lycosaurus or continental we do it all the time
. if done correctly there is no issue . use your head and be safe fly safe
and have fun .
3579A
--------
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229741#229741
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
Put the wing tanks in from KITFOX and you will not have any issues . I had 23
gallons in mine with the wing tank and the nose tank . Wished i had the left wing
tank many times . The plane can handle it fine just go easy in heavy turbulence
as my bro said . we flew mine for literally hundred's of hours loaded to
user defined gross weight , Remember its experimental .
3579A
--------
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229745#229745
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| Subject: | Re: Handpropping a 912 |
Wasn't the question/thread regarding hand propping a 912x?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
> My fox had a 582 and three blade prop . Hand propped it many times . no
> problem after you pull it threw you wait to put your hand back up to pull
> it around again . If you dont you a dumb-ass and dont like your hands very
> much. For the ones of you afraid to hand prop a lycosaurus or continental
> we do it all the time . if done correctly there is no issue . use your
> head and be safe fly safe and have fun .
> John Perry
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
eskflyer wrote:
> Put the wing tanks in from KITFOX and you will not have any issues . I had 23
gallons in mine with the wing tank and the nose tank . Wished i had the left
wing tank many times . The plane can handle it fine just go easy in heavy turbulence
as my bro said . we flew mine for literally hundred's of hours loaded
to user defined gross weight , Remember its experimental .
>
> 3579A
uhhh not have any issues??? what happens when the wing tank is filled over 3/4
on your bird.
These are issues that Steve was trying to do away with when they made the poly
tanks.
Just tossing a little snake oil out there, the poly wing tanks were developed by
or with input from the aircraft manufacture (avid) and DESIGNED to be put in
the avid / kitfox wings. Now everyone has to second guess the install. I talked
to Steve Winder about these and he told me the installation was engineered
to provide the same strength as the original wing. :dunno: but it seems that
he just may know what he was talking about as he was pretty much "AVID" for
many years.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229757#229757
Message 8
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| Subject: | battery location |
We need some opinions on where to plan for mounting the battery on a
KF-IV-1050 with a 912UL.
The configuration up front includes an oil cooler, the 3-bladed wooden GSC
prop, and Grove spring gear. The cockpit is the usual. The aft end is
standard except for the the homebuilder's special tailwheel, which is 1 lb
heavier than the original Matco gear tailwheel.
What's the likely location for the battery, behind the firewall or behind
the seat?
We're just getting to the wiring, so we need ideas from you guys who have
done this.
thanks to all,
Clem & Chris Wehner
Oklahoma
KF-IV-912, finally finishing (after 18 years).
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
Bob
When I bought my mod 1 fox, stripped for rebuild, it had two 6 gal tks.
I put a 13 gal fiberglass tk in the left wing. I did remove one diagonal and one
rib. The tk is glued to the spars with construction silicone. Flexabile
but very strong. I'm sure glad I did it.
I have a mod 3 I'm working on which has a 13 +- gal in each wing.
Some where there are instructions, from kit fox, on how to install them. I have
all the books, I'll see what I can find for you.
Others should also have the books.
That might end the guessing.
--------
Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
KF Mod I and III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229769#229769
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
Thanks Bob, I appreciate that and look forward to the info.
Do not archive
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AKFLYERBOB
Sent: 11 February 2009 12:16 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Adding wing tanks
Bob
When I bought my mod 1 fox, stripped for rebuild, it had two 6 gal tks.
I put a 13 gal fiberglass tk in the left wing. I did remove one diagonal and
one rib. The tk is glued to the spars with construction silicone. Flexabile
but very strong. I'm sure glad I did it.
I have a mod 3 I'm working on which has a 13 +- gal in each wing.
Some where there are instructions, from kit fox, on how to install them. I
have all the books, I'll see what I can find for you.
Others should also have the books.
That might end the guessing.
--------
Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
KF Mod I and III
Message 11
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| Subject: | battery location |
Mount it behind the seat.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
From: clemwehner@sbcglobal.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-
List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 10:17:27 -0600
We need some opinions on where to plan for mounting the battery on a KF-IV-
1050 with a 912UL.
Message 12
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| Subject: | battery location |
WHY?????
Clint N9666T
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 09:43:36 -0800
Mount it behind the seat. Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
From: clemwehner@sbcglobal.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-
List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 10:17:27 -0600
We need some opinions on where to plan for mounting the battery on a KF-IV-
1050 with a 912UL.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: battery location |
Why not?????
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Bazzill<mailto:clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
To: Kitfox list<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery location
WHY?????
Clint N9666T
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: henrysfork1@msn.com<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery location
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:43:36 -0800
Mount it behind the seat.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: clemwehner@sbcglobal.net<mailto:clemwehner@sbcglobal.net>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: battery location
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:17:27 -0600
We need some opinions on where to plan for mounting the battery on a
KF-IV-1050 with a 912UL.
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 14
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| Subject: | battery location |
1 Very difficult to get to in a model IV.
2 Long runs to starter.
3 Standard battery (example 14-BS standard Motorcycle battery) 10 1/2 lbs
.
4 Area behind seat in 1=2C2=2C and 3's are a lot different then the model
IV's.
5 The mfg origional position was on pilots side behind firewall.
Clint N9666T over 1400 hours 912ULS
Swap out batteres every 2 years.
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 11:55:58 -0700
Why not?????
Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Bazzill
Sent: Wednesday=2C February 11=2C 2009 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery location
WHY????? Clint N9666T
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 09:43:36 -0800
Mount it behind the seat. Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
From: clemwehner@sbcglobal.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-
List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 10:17:27 -0600
We need some opinions on where to plan for mounting the battery on a KF-IV-
1050 with a 912UL.
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 15
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| Subject: | battery location |
The battery is a fairly heavy piece... Check your W&B then put the battery
where it will do the most good.
One thing though I never recommend placing the battery right on top of the
tail wheel. I like to keep the end as light as possible.
I'm installing a 912 myself right now and a few of the changes I'm may make
are things like moving the header tank behind the seat, moving the battery
back and possibly putting the oil reservoir behind the dash. Before any of
this is done I'll weigh the plane so I can make the decisions.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of clemwehner
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:47 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: battery location
We need some opinions on where to plan for mounting the battery on a
KF-IV-1050 with a 912UL.
The configuration up front includes an oil cooler, the 3-bladed wooden GSC
prop, and Grove spring gear. The cockpit is the usual. The aft end is
standard except for the the homebuilder's special tailwheel, which is 1 lb
heavier than the original Matco gear tailwheel.
What's the likely location for the battery, behind the firewall or behind
the seat?
We're just getting to the wiring, so we need ideas from you guys who have
done this.
thanks to all,
Clem & Chris Wehner
Oklahoma
KF-IV-912, finally finishing (after 18 years).
Message 16
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| Subject: | battery location |
I have no panel tank=2C just two wing tanks and a header tank which is loca
ted behind the seat. I tried to install the battery (Odyssey PC925) behind
the panel but it was to heavy. I put it behind the seat and the W&B was goo
d. Yes its a long run for the starter but a good cable takes care of it and
access to the battery is simple if needed. This may not be well suited for
some but it works for me and maybe it can help someone else.
Dee Young
N345DY
KFM 112
Do not archive
From: clint_bazzill@hotmail.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Ki
tfox-List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 19:46:36 +0000
1 Very difficult to get to in a model IV. 2 Long runs to starter. 3 St
andard battery (example 14-BS standard Motorcycle battery) 10 1/2 lbs. 4
Area behind seat in 1=2C2=2C and 3's are a lot different then the model IV'
s. 5 The mfg origional position was on pilots side behind firewall. Clint
N9666T over 1400 hours 912ULS Swap out batteres every 2 years.
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 11:55:58 -0700
Why not?????
Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Bazzill
Sent: Wednesday=2C February 11=2C 2009 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery location
WHY????? Clint N9666T
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 09:43:36 -0800
Mount it behind the seat. Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
From: clemwehner@sbcglobal.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-
List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 10:17:27 -0600
We need some opinions on where to plan for mounting the battery on a KF-IV-
1050 with a 912UL.
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Handpropping a 912 |
Keep in mind you have to get the prop to 200 rpm before the ignition kicks in.
Odds are you will stick your hands into the just started engine as you have to
get the prop moving so fast and it raps up to 1800 rpm like now !. Talk about
a meat cleaver!
Yep he was talking about a 912 . the 582 idles at 2000 rpm hmmmmm it raps up faster
than a 912 does . I have had great success at handproping it many many times
. battery dead and or the starter died . It had the 3 blade 68" gsc PROP.
3579A out
--------
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229837#229837
Message 18
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| Subject: | battery location |
You are not familar with the Model IV=2C it is very different then the olde
r ones.
Clint
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 13:08:37 -0800
I have no panel tank=2C just two wing tanks and a header tank which is loca
ted behind the seat. I tried to install the battery (Odyssey PC925) behind
the panel but it was to heavy. I put it behind the seat and the W&B was goo
d. Yes its a long run for the starter but a good cable takes care of it and
access to the battery is simple if needed. This may not be well suited for
some but it works for me and maybe it can help someone else. Dee YoungN345
DYKFM 112 Do not archive
From: clint_bazzill@hotmail.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Ki
tfox-List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 19:46:36 +0000
1 Very difficult to get to in a model IV. 2 Long runs to starter. 3 St
andard battery (example 14-BS standard Motorcycle battery) 10 1/2 lbs. 4
Area behind seat in 1=2C2=2C and 3's are a lot different then the model IV'
s. 5 The mfg origional position was on pilots side behind firewall. Clint
N9666T over 1400 hours 912ULS Swap out batteres every 2 years.
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 11:55:58 -0700
Why not?????
Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Bazzill
Sent: Wednesday=2C February 11=2C 2009 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery location
WHY????? Clint N9666T
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 09:43:36 -0800
Mount it behind the seat. Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
From: clemwehner@sbcglobal.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-
List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 10:17:27 -0600
We need some opinions on where to plan for mounting the battery on a KF-IV-
1050 with a 912UL.
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
Message 19
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| Subject: | battery location |
OK
Do not archive
From: clint_bazzill@hotmail.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Ki
tfox-List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 21:47:45 +0000
You are not familar with the Model IV=2C it is very different then the olde
r ones. Clint
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 13:08:37 -0800
I have no panel tank=2C just two wing tanks and a header tank which is loca
ted behind the seat. I tried to install the battery (Odyssey PC925) behind
the panel but it was to heavy. I put it behind the seat and the W&B was goo
d. Yes its a long run for the starter but a good cable takes care of it and
access to the battery is simple if needed. This may not be well suited for
some but it works for me and maybe it can help someone else. Dee YoungN345
DYKFM 112 Do not archive
From: clint_bazzill@hotmail.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Ki
tfox-List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 19:46:36 +0000
1 Very difficult to get to in a model IV. 2 Long runs to starter. 3 St
andard battery (example 14-BS standard Motorcycle battery) 10 1/2 lbs. 4
Area behind seat in 1=2C2=2C and 3's are a lot different then the model IV'
s. 5 The mfg origional position was on pilots side behind firewall. Clint
N9666T over 1400 hours 912ULS Swap out batteres every 2 years.
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 11:55:58 -0700
Why not?????
Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Bazzill
Sent: Wednesday=2C February 11=2C 2009 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery location
WHY????? Clint N9666T
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 09:43:36 -0800
Mount it behind the seat. Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
From: clemwehner@sbcglobal.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-
List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 10:17:27 -0600
We need some opinions on where to plan for mounting the battery on a KF-IV-
1050 with a 912UL.
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Handpropping a 912 |
The first 3 aircraft I ever flew didn't have starters, batteries, or
generators. The only way to get them started was handpropping, and yes, it
can be done easily on Continental and Lycoming engines. The worst engine
I've hand propped was a Continental IO-540 on a C-185 on straight floats
when it was still in the water. Areal PIA propping it standing behind the
prop on floats.
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wiloburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of eskflyer
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:18 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Handpropping a 912
My fox had a 582 and three blade prop . Hand propped it many times . no
problem after you pull it threw you wait to put your hand back up to pull it
around again . If you dont you a dumb-ass and dont like your hands very
much. For the ones of you afraid to hand prop a lycosaurus or continental we
do it all the time . if done correctly there is no issue . use your head and
be safe fly safe and have fun .
3579A
--------
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229741#229741
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: battery location |
Hot oil in the same "room" with you....is that wise?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 11, 2009, at 3:29 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> The battery is a fairly heavy piece... Check your W&B then put the
> battery where it will do the most good.
>
>
> One thing though I never recommend placing the battery right on top
> of the tail wheel. I like to keep the end as light as possible.
>
>
> Im installing a 912 myself right now and a few of the changes Im
> may make are things like moving the header tank behind the seat,
> moving the battery back and possibly putting the oil reservoir
> behind the dash. Before any of this is done Ill weigh the plane
> so I can make the decisions.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | battery location |
Now that you have my intrest=2C why in the world are you using a 24 lb batt
ery to run a KFM 112 engine in a Model II Kitfox. Thats like putting a gol
f cart battery in a Cessna.
Clint
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 14:09:51 -0800
OK Do not archive
From: clint_bazzill@hotmail.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Ki
tfox-List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 21:47:45 +0000
You are not familar with the Model IV=2C it is very different then the olde
r ones. Clint
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 13:08:37 -0800
I have no panel tank=2C just two wing tanks and a header tank which is loca
ted behind the seat. I tried to install the battery (Odyssey PC925) behind
the panel but it was to heavy. I put it behind the seat and the W&B was goo
d. Yes its a long run for the starter but a good cable takes care of it and
access to the battery is simple if needed. This may not be well suited for
some but it works for me and maybe it can help someone else. Dee YoungN345
DYKFM 112 Do not archive
From: clint_bazzill@hotmail.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Ki
tfox-List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 19:46:36 +0000
1 Very difficult to get to in a model IV. 2 Long runs to starter. 3 St
andard battery (example 14-BS standard Motorcycle battery) 10 1/2 lbs. 4
Area behind seat in 1=2C2=2C and 3's are a lot different then the model IV'
s. 5 The mfg origional position was on pilots side behind firewall. Clint
N9666T over 1400 hours 912ULS Swap out batteres every 2 years.
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 11:55:58 -0700
Why not?????
Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Bazzill
Sent: Wednesday=2C February 11=2C 2009 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery location
WHY????? Clint N9666T
From: henrysfork1@msn.comTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 09:43:36 -0800
Mount it behind the seat. Dee YoungModel IIN345DY Do not archive
From: clemwehner@sbcglobal.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-
List: battery locationDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 10:17:27 -0600
We need some opinions on where to plan for mounting the battery on a KF-IV-
1050 with a 912UL.
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
Message 23
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| Subject: | insurance while building |
Where can we get insurance to cover loss while in the building phase before
the aircraft is finished. It's kept in a hanger at the airport.
The tornadoes we had yesterday here in Oklahoma got us to thinking.
thanks to all,
Clem Wehner
Oklahoma
KFIV-912, under construction since 1991
Message 24
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| Subject: | KFM Battery Size |
Which battery should I be using?
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Bazzill<mailto:clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
To: Kitfox list<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:21 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery location
Now that you have my intrest, why in the world are you using a 24 lb
battery to run a KFM 112 engine in a Model II Kitfox. Thats like
putting a golf cart battery in a Cessna.
Clint
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Handpropping a 912 |
Yup, 2000 rpm is faster than 1800 rpm, but I think we are talking about how
quickly the engine gets up to that rpm. The 912S is a higher torque engine.
I bet it gets there faster. Thus the need for extreme caution.
I still might try if faced with a cold night and/or a long hike.
Randy
Series 5/7, 912S Warpdrive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of eskflyer
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Handpropping a 912
Keep in mind you have to get the prop to 200 rpm before the ignition kicks
in. Odds are you will stick your hands into the just started engine as you
have to get the prop moving so fast and it raps up to 1800 rpm like now !.
Talk about a meat cleaver!
Yep he was talking about a 912 . the 582 idles at 2000 rpm hmmmmm it raps up
faster than a 912 does . I have had great success at handproping it many
many times . battery dead and or the starter died . It had the 3 blade 68"
gsc PROP.
3579A out
--------
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229837#229837
Message 26
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| Subject: | insurance while building |
I am using a 14-BS battery that you can get a any auto supply store. I cha
nge it out every 2 years=2C but wouldn't have to. Weighs in at 10 1/2 lbs.
Works very well on my 912ULS with high compression. Its true=2C haven't
had it at real low temp=2C about 20F with snow lowest. Less then half the
size. And I am sure a lot cheaper.
Clint
From: clemwehner@sbcglobal.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-
List: insurance while buildingDate: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 17:48:05 -0600
Where can we get insurance to cover loss while in the building phase before
the aircraft is finished. It's kept in a hanger at the airport.
The tornadoes we had yesterday here in Oklahoma got us to thinking.
thanks to all=2C
Clem Wehner
Oklahoma
KFIV-912=2C under construction since 1991
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: insurance while building |
Clem,
I think you have a good idea. I had non movement insurance from
Avemco, but it was quite a while ago (I believe I paid only $200 per
year for it.) I think it would still be easy to come by from many of
the aircraft insurers. If your an EAA member you might get a good
deal from Falcon thru Bob Mackey 920-230-3252.
I'm sure you know OK is prime territory for killer tornados,
especially now thru May - ya'll be careful out there.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Feb 11, 2009, at 6:48 PM, clemwehner wrote:
> Where can we get insurance to cover loss while in the building phase
> before the aircraft is finished. It's kept in a hanger at the airport.
>
> The tornadoes we had yesterday here in Oklahoma got us to thinking.
>
> thanks to all,
>
> Clem Wehner
> Oklahoma
>
> KFIV-912, under construction since 1991
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: KFM Battery Size |
The 14-BS battery does not have enough cold cranking amps to spin the
KFM when its cold out.
Thanks
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
Clint says -
I am using a 14-BS battery that you can get a any auto supply store. I
change it out every 2 years, but wouldn't have to. Weighs in at 10 1/2
lbs. Works very well on my 912ULS with high compression. Its true,
haven't had it at real low temp, about 20F with snow lowest. Less then
half the size. And I am sure a lot cheaper.
Clint
----- Original Message -----
From: Dee Young<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:06 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: KFM Battery Size
Which battery should I be using?
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Bazzill<mailto:clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
To: Kitfox list<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:21 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery location
Now that you have my intrest, why in the world are you using a 24 lb
battery to run a KFM 112 engine in a Model II Kitfox. Thats like
putting a golf cart battery in a Cessna.
Clint
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: insurance while building |
[quote="clemwehner"]Where can we get insurance to cover loss while in the building
phase before the aircraft is finished. It's kept in a hanger at the airport.
The tornadoes we had yesterday here in Oklahoma got us to thinking.
thanks to all,
Clem Wehner
Oklahoma
KFIV-912, under construction since 1991
> [b]
While I was building I had 'Builder's Insurance" from Avemco. It started with
a lower hull value and price and they would up the value and price of the insurance
each year as more was completed on the plane. They would just call me
and ask what value I wanted and then tell me the new price each year at renewal
time.
You can probably get that type of insurance from other companys.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229885#229885
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Handpropping a 912 |
Hi
My instructor has hand propped his 912 many times with success. He brings
the prop slowly to the 12 o'clock position and pulls down. He stands next to
the cowl between the engine and door. I personally haven't tried it but it
looks pretty straight forward at least when he does it.
Brian
speedster 912
85% complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: February 11, 2009 7:21 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Handpropping a 912
--> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Yup, 2000 rpm is faster than 1800 rpm, but I think we are talking about how
quickly the engine gets up to that rpm. The 912S is a higher torque engine.
I bet it gets there faster. Thus the need for extreme caution.
I still might try if faced with a cold night and/or a long hike.
Randy
Series 5/7, 912S Warpdrive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of eskflyer
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Handpropping a 912
Keep in mind you have to get the prop to 200 rpm before the ignition kicks
in. Odds are you will stick your hands into the just started engine as you
have to get the prop moving so fast and it raps up to 1800 rpm like now !.
Talk about a meat cleaver!
Yep he was talking about a 912 . the 582 idles at 2000 rpm hmmmmm it raps up
faster than a 912 does . I have had great success at handproping it many
many times . battery dead and or the starter died . It had the 3 blade 68"
gsc PROP.
3579A out
--------
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229837#229837
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | battery location |
Good point lynn! There probably won't be much to gain by putting the tank
back there... After all we are only talking about maybe nine inches.
Another slight change I'm considering is putting the oil cooler to the side
in front of the rad instead of up by the prop. I'll have
to see about the hoses required etc. Anything I can get out of the nose and
behind the CG will go there if necessary.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: battery location
Hot oil in the same "room" with you....is that wise?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 11, 2009, at 3:29 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> The battery is a fairly heavy piece... Check your W&B then put the
> battery where it will do the most good.
>
>
> One thing though I never recommend placing the battery right on top
> of the tail wheel. I like to keep the end as light as possible.
>
>
> I'm installing a 912 myself right now and a few of the changes I'm
> may make are things like moving the header tank behind the seat,
> moving the battery back and possibly putting the oil reservoir
> behind the dash. Before any of this is done I'll weigh the plane
> so I can make the decisions.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: Handpropping a 912 |
A friend had a PA 12 on floats.. no starter, no gen.
Hand propped it after pushing off the wharf or while standing on a mooring
line. Once the engine caught he would steer it to deeper water by leaning
in and pushing the rudder pedals with his hand. Once in clear water he
would then jump in.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Hart
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Handpropping a 912
The first 3 aircraft I ever flew didn't have starters, batteries, or
generators. The only way to get them started was handpropping, and yes, it
can be done easily on Continental and Lycoming engines. The worst engine
I've hand propped was a Continental IO-540 on a C-185 on straight floats
when it was still in the water. Areal PIA propping it standing behind the
prop on floats.
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wiloburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of eskflyer
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:18 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Handpropping a 912
My fox had a 582 and three blade prop . Hand propped it many times . no
problem after you pull it threw you wait to put your hand back up to pull it
around again . If you dont you a dumb-ass and dont like your hands very
much. For the ones of you afraid to hand prop a lycosaurus or continental we
do it all the time . if done correctly there is no issue . use your head and
be safe fly safe and have fun .
3579A
--------
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus
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| Subject: | Re: Handpropping a 912 |
I handpropped my 912ul. At the time, it was handprop or walk home. I thought
that the starter solenoid had bit the dust, but it turned out to be a bad connector.
I used the same procedure that I use to start the A-65 in my Taylorcraft. Have
someone in the plane holding the brakes and operating the throttle. Prop at
the point of coming up on the compression stroke, palms flat on the blade (no
fingers over trailing edge or behind the blade) rapidly pull down on the blade
while backing away from the prop.
The rotax fired right away, and I was well clear of the blades.
It isn't something that I would do for the heck of it, but at least I know that
I can, and if due diligence is exercised, it is pretty safe.
Louie
model 3 912 ul
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229908#229908
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| Subject: | Re: KFM Battery Size |
On Wed, February 11, 2009 4:38 pm, Dee Young wrote:
> The 14-BS battery does not have enough cold cranking amps to spin the KFM when
its
> cold out.
Here's some battery information from Bob Nuckolls Aeroelectric connection:
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Battery/>
I believe the current best practice is to have two small batteries where one is
changed out every year. You size batteries such that you have enough reserve to
complete the intended flight operation. This requirement is normally for more reserve
than cold engine cranking.
I am going to follow Bob's recommendations for wiring, contactors and redundancy.
If you cannot find the precise battery information you need by searching the
aeroelectric archives, then post the request on the forum.
Bob has a FAQ that is over 300 pages long that answers questions by category.
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List/AeroElectric-List_FAQ.pdf>
Batteries, contacters and OV protection are among the subjects covered.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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| Subject: | Re: Handpropping a 912 |
Are you saying you stand in front of the plane while propping?
I guess the person riding the brakes was a real close friend.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vetdrem
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:51 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Handpropping a 912
I handpropped my 912ul. At the time, it was handprop or walk home. I
thought that the starter solenoid had bit the dust, but it turned out to be
a bad connector.
I used the same procedure that I use to start the A-65 in my Taylorcraft.
Have someone in the plane holding the brakes and operating the throttle.
Prop at the point of coming up on the compression stroke, palms flat on the
blade (no fingers over trailing edge or behind the blade) rapidly pull down
on the blade while backing away from the prop.
The rotax fired right away, and I was well clear of the blades.
It isn't something that I would do for the heck of it, but at least I know
that I can, and if due diligence is exercised, it is pretty safe.
Louie
model 3 912 ul
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229908#229908
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: KFM Battery Size |
I am not sure any of you are that familiar with the KFM. The engine is
hard starting when cold and requires 300 rpms to trigger the mags. If
the battery can't spin the engine in 0 degree weather then it will not
start. End of story. The Odyssey does a good job for me and I am pleased
with its performance.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Franz - Merlin GT<mailto:paul@eucleides.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KFM Battery Size
<paul@eucleides.com<mailto:paul@eucleides.com>>
On Wed, February 11, 2009 4:38 pm, Dee Young wrote:
> The 14-BS battery does not have enough cold cranking amps to spin
the KFM when its
> cold out.
Here's some battery information from Bob Nuckolls Aeroelectric
connection:
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Battery/<http://www.aeroelect
ric.com/Reference_Docs/Battery/>>
I believe the current best practice is to have two small batteries
where one is
changed out every year. You size batteries such that you have enough
reserve to
complete the intended flight operation. This requirement is normally
for more reserve
than cold engine cranking.
I am going to follow Bob's recommendations for wiring, contactors and
redundancy.
If you cannot find the precise battery information you need by
searching the
aeroelectric archives, then post the request on the forum.
Bob has a FAQ that is over 300 pages long that answers questions by
category.
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List/AeroElectric-List_FAQ.
pdf<http://www.aeroelectric.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List/AeroElectric-List_F
AQ.pdf>>
Batteries, contacters and OV protection are among the subjects
covered.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
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