---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/15/09: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:46 AM - Re: 2009 Northwest Aviation Conference & Trade Show (Tom Jones) 2. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Will any company insure a student/Kitfox? (lance miller) 3. 08:04 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (Cmflyboy12@aol.com) 4. 08:13 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (lance miller) 5. 08:20 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (Cmflyboy12@aol.com) 6. 08:28 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (lance miller) 7. 08:37 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (Cmflyboy12@aol.com) 8. 08:45 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (lance miller) 9. 08:49 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (lance miller) 10. 08:52 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (Cmflyboy12@AOL.COM) 11. 08:53 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (Cmflyboy12@aol.com) 12. 09:17 AM - Brake rotors (Ed Gray) 13. 09:34 AM - Re: Brake rotors (patrick reilly) 14. 09:37 AM - New issue, turtle deck security (WurlyBird) 15. 09:40 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (Aerobatics@aol.com) 16. 09:58 AM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (akflyer) 17. 10:13 AM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (akflyer) 18. 10:23 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) 19. 10:46 AM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (WurlyBird) 20. 11:12 AM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (akflyer) 21. 12:00 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (WurlyBird) 22. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (patrick reilly) 23. 01:14 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (akflyer) 24. 02:03 PM - Re: Brake rotors (Guy Buchanan) 25. 02:39 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (akflyer) 26. 03:03 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson) 27. 04:05 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Paul Franz) 28. 05:14 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (akflyer) 29. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (patrick reilly) 30. 05:55 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson) 31. 06:07 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson) 32. 06:16 PM - Re: Will any company insure a student/Kitfox? (815TL) 33. 07:14 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Tom Jones) 34. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (sbennett3) 35. 08:06 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (vetdrem) 36. 08:11 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:59 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 2009 Northwest Aviation Conference & Trade Show From: "Tom Jones" > Is this a good one to go to for shopping instruments and radios? It sure looks like there is a lot of fun stuff there. Looks like it costs $5 which is pretty reasonable. I see you can fly in to Thun Field and they have a shuttle service that is free too. > > 2009 Northwest Aviation Conference & Trade Show I enjoy this event each year. Dealers there often give show discounts. There are some good seminars to choose from too. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230318#230318 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:29 AM PST US From: lance miller Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Will any company insure a student/Kitfox? > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Will any company insure a student/Kitfox?> From : r66rc-matronics@yahoo.com> Date: Sat=2C 14 Feb 2009 20:23:21 -0800> To: k 6rc-matronics@yahoo.com>> > I found myself in exactly your predicament last spring. I owned the plane=2C had no time in type=2C and couldn't get insur ance.> > My solution was very close to what Guy Buchanan suggested=2C but w ith a twist. I went to my instructor's insurance agency and arranged for a complete policy (liability and hull damage) but named my instructor as the only pilot. I was not in the loop except as a student under the direction o f my PIC instructor. I also (later) added two fellow Kitfox owners (who are experienced pilots) as named pilots on my policy. > > BTW=2C the insurance carrier is AIG and they had no problems at all with the way the policy was set up. Also of note is that my instructor wanted me to have my own policy on my plane (with him named) and not expect to use his policy to cover my plane or our flying in it. > > Best of luck=2C> > Rich Cunningham> > > i ha ve a model 2 very clean airplane i havent flown her in 2 years=2C i need so meone to help me get current again=2C im in giddings texas=2C close to aust in tx...........HELP ! manceliller@hotmail.com> > Read this topic online h ere:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230295#230295> > > > ========================> _ ================> > > i have _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:29 AM PST US From: Cmflyboy12@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 hello,This is flyboy. I have a 582 kitfox 2 with a cgs prop I was thinking abot changing to IVO 3 Blade,any advise **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:26 AM PST US From: lance miller Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 isint it a gsc? i have a 3 blade wooden prop=2C it a gsc=2C and i like it ! !! i really dont know the differance=2C between the 2 From: Cmflyboy12@aol.comDate: Sun=2C 15 Feb 2009 11:03:16 -0500Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best=2Cfor a 582To: kitfox-list@matronics.co m hello=2CThis is flyboy. I have a 582 kitfox 2 with a cgs prop I was thinkin g abot changing to IVO 3 Blade=2Cany advise Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_0 22009 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:45 AM PST US From: Cmflyboy12@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 yes it is, I got it backwords.Why I ask is I,ve had a ivo 3 blade on a challenger 2 and I liked the way it adjusted. **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:40 AM PST US From: lance miller Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 well i had a dog attack my plane a few years ago=2C and he ran into the pro p=2C it killed the dog=2C and cracked my prop! i bought a new gsc=2C and on ly adjusted it once. do you play with your settings alot? p.s i just sent y ou some pictures of my bird From: Cmflyboy12@aol.comDate: Sun=2C 15 Feb 2009 11:19:53 -0500Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best=2Cfor a 582To: kitfox-list@matronics.co m yes it is=2C I got it backwords.Why I ask is I=2Cve had a ivo 3 blade on a challenger 2 and I liked the way it adjusted. Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_0 22009 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:07 AM PST US From: Cmflyboy12@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 where do I get your pics at I,ll send you 1 of mine **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:53 AM PST US From: lance miller Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 i sent them to cmflyboy12@aol.com From: Cmflyboy12@aol.comDate: Sun=2C 15 Feb 2009 11:35:39 -0500Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best=2Cfor a 582To: kitfox-list@matronics.co m where do I get your pics at I=2Cll send you 1 of mine Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:11 AM PST US From: lance miller Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 well im headed to the airport=2C to do some taxiing.......wish me luck..... .....good looking airplane From: Cmflyboy12@aol.comDate: Sun=2C 15 Feb 2009 11:35:39 -0500Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best=2Cfor a 582To: kitfox-list@matronics.co m where do I get your pics at I=2Cll send you 1 of mine Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Faster_0220 09 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:47 AM PST US From: Cmflyboy12@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 yes I have found them. That is a very,very nice plane,I love that yellow, **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:52 AM PST US From: Cmflyboy12@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 Good luck stay on top of that tail wheel **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:32 AM PST US From: "Ed Gray" Subject: Kitfox-List: Brake rotors Lynn and Patrick, I would remove the outer rim of the rotors by making 4 or 5 radial cuts with an angle grinder and cutoff wheel, up to the outer radius desired for each segment to be removed (like slicing a pie). Then lop of the segments with the cutoff wheel and round off the circumference with a grinder wheel on the same machine and dress with a file. No need for a band saw here. I didn't bother because the weight savings seemed small, but next time the rotors are off I will. I also drilled my axles one inch and tapped them for a 5/16 bolt for future wheel pants. Then I made a C shaped clip out of thick steel wire to pin the axle bolt and eliminate the cotter. Now I can drill the axle dust caps, and install a stud to stabilize the pants. I want to fly it a bit before adding the wheel pants. Got the engine and radiator in this weekend. I vented the cylinder head into the water line exiting the head above the oil pump since my water fill tank has no nipple. Any 582 guys see any problem with this? I also didn't like the use of only three bolts for the exhaust manifold, so I put short studs in the upper inside holes and can put nuts on it by tightening the two nuts gradually as the manifold goes on. I had to grind a little weld material from the flange so the nuts are seated flush. Worked great. I am now debating whether to add a Hacman control before completion. Any comments about this decision are welcome. Ed Gray, KII, 582 building, Dallas , do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:55 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Brake rotors Ed=2C Thanks for the info. Sounds like a way to accomplish the outer rim re movable of the brake disc without a bandsaw. But=2C it would be very time c onsuming to make all those cuts in 1/4" steel with a cutoff wheel. Good luc k with your build. CPS shows a diagram venting the head just as you did. Wh ere did you find a 1"x1/4"x1" tee=2C if that is what you used. Pat ReillyMo d 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL From: egraylaw@swbell.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-List: Brake rotorsDate: Sun=2C 15 Feb 2009 11:16:28 -0600 Lynn and Patrick=2C I would remove the outer rim of the rotors by making 4 or 5 radial cuts with an angle grinder and cutoff wheel=2C up to the outer radius desired for each segment to be removed (like slicing a pie). Then lop of the segments with the cutoff wheel and round off the circumference w ith a grinder wheel on the same machine and dress with a file. No need for a band saw here. I didn=92t bother because the weight savings seemed smal l=2C but next time the rotors are off I will. I also drilled my axles one inch and tapped them for a 5/16 bolt for future wheel pants. Then I made a C shaped clip out of thick steel wire to pin the axle bolt and eliminate the cotter. Now I can drill the axle dust caps=2C and install a stud to st abilize the pants. I want to fly it a bit before adding the wheel pants. Got the engine and radiator in this weekend. I vented the cylinder head in to the water line exiting the head above the oil pump since my water fill t ank has no nipple. Any 582 guys see any problem with this? I also didn=92 t like the use of only three bolts for the exhaust manifold=2C so I put sh ort studs in the upper inside holes and can put nuts on it by tightening t he two nuts gradually as the manifold goes on. I had to grind a little wel d material from the flange so the nuts are seated flush. Worked great. I am now debating whether to add a Hacman control before completion. Any c omments about this decision are welcome. Ed Gray=2C KII=2C 582 building=2C Dallas =2C do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:37 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: New issue, turtle deck security From: "WurlyBird" I can not tell you how much I hat being the guy who has one issue after another, but I have to say I expected to have a series of issues purchasing a plane. I just didn't think they would all be so EXCITING. So yesterday I had my instructor take my wife up in the Kitfox for a quick ride since she is half the owner and had never been up in it. They came back the turtle deck had popped out from under the green house (is this what the large sun roof window is called in this plane?) and was acting as a large scoop. What I have been told was that they were doing some progressively steeper turns and on a right turn the instructor let the nose tuck in the turn which let the airspeed build a little, probably around 90-95 indicated, and then there was a "pop" and a "woosh". [Shocked] Neither said where the trim ball was at the time, but I am sure it was not in the center. We pulled the turtle deck off and reinstalled it and the front edge of it buts all the way against the metal strip which holds the gap under the window. All DZUS fasteners (camlocks?) were installed and are as snug as I would expect. So once again I am here with no ideas how to go about fixing this, or even if there is something to fix. I am not sure what could have caused this to happen. Any help is appreciated. James -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230357#230357 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:16 AM PST US From: Aerobatics@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 I have a KF with an 3 blade IVO.... 582 E box Perfection In a message dated 2/15/2009 10:05:29 A.M. Central Standard Time, Cmflyboy12@aol.com writes: hello,This is flyboy. I have a 582 kitfox 2 with a cgs prop I was thinking abot changing to IVO 3 Blade,any advise ____________________________________ Need a job? _Find an employment agency near you_ (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) . (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:35 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "akflyer" James, I read in my Avid manual of this happening if the windshield was cut to short and the turtle deck did not stuck under it far enough. I thing they recommended 1.25" of turtle deck sticking under the windshield. The fix was to drill out the rivets on the back edge of the windshield, slip a piece of aluminum between the windshield and the spacer to get the full 1.25" over lap. Would only take an hour tops to make the quick fix! I will dig through the files and see if I can find the drawing for you and get it posted in the next couple hours. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230361#230361 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:43 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "akflyer" here is some snake oil for today...... the service letter from Avid. This will take care of you! -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230367#230367 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/turtle_deck_service_letter_994.pdf ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582 From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Sun, February 15, 2009 8:28 am, lance miller wrote: > clip clip > ..... p.s i just sent you some pictures of my bird I'd like to see them too. Probably everyone else does too! They're very easy to post using the forum interface to this list. -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:09 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "WurlyBird" Thanks a bunch. I read the letter and checked my measurements. I am sitting at 1 1/2" so I am good according to the letter. But I find it odd that they are measuring from the front edge of FC-3. Why not state the minimum requirement as amount of over hang? I have 5/8" of lexan that over laps the turtle deck, does this sound like the appropriate amount? -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230371#230371 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:15 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "akflyer" NO, they state you need 1.25" overlap. The drawing is a little hosed up, read the written description. The letter kinda states why... it you dont have the overlap, and you are doing slips (could be an uncoordinated turn) you can pressure up the fuse and blammo you got a nice little speed brake right behind your head and soiled pair of shorts. Not so bad if they are yours, but if you make the ole lady soil hers, you can expect some couch time in the near future and the playground is liable to be off limits for a very long time. Do the fix they show and you will both be happier. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230373#230373 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:01 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "WurlyBird" I re-read it two more times, everything is indicating that the minimum required 1 1/4" is measured from the front of FC-3. Do you have 1 1/4" of lexan that overlaps the turtle deck? Can I get a quick poll on this from a few people? I can certainly see that the extra would help keep everything together. -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230377#230377 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/avid_clip_189.jpg ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:34 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security James. Looking at Lenoards drawing =2C " frrom the front of FC-3 overlap" w ould not give you 1 1/4 overlap of the turtle deck. It would give you 1 1/4 " minus the width of FC-28. Leonards drawing shows that dimention to be 5/8 ".Pat ReillyMod 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue=2C turtle deck security> From: james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil> Date: Su n=2C 15 Feb 2009 11:58:42 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > --> Kitfo x-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" > > I r e-read it two more times=2C everything is indicating that the minimum requi red 1 1/4" is measured from the front of FC-3. Do you have 1 1/4" of lexan that overlaps the turtle deck? Can I get a quick poll on this from a few pe ople? I can certainly see that the extra would help keep everything togethe r.> > --------> James> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop> 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http:// forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230377#230377> > > > > Attachments: ==========> > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:32 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "akflyer" WurlyBird wrote: > I re-read it two more times, everything is indicating that the minimum required 1 1/4" is measured from the front of FC-3. Do you have 1 1/4" of lexan that overlaps the turtle deck? Can I get a quick poll on this from a few people? I can certainly see that the extra would help keep everything together. OK as I said the DRAWING is hosed... use it a REFERENCE to give you a visual on the fix... the written description states The leading edge of the turtle deck must engage the skylight with a minimum overlap of 1 1/4" This does not say from the edge of yada yada, it states OVERLAP period. Go by the written letter not the drawing and you cant go wrong. I put this on mine as I did not feel like having an in-flight air-conditioning system self activating at inopportune moments. [/b] -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230386#230386 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:33 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Brake rotors At 09:16 AM 2/15/2009, you wrote: >I am now debating whether to add a Hacman control before >completion. Any comments about this decision are welcome. Ed, Highly recommended. Check the archives for lots of specifics. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:32 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "akflyer" marked up the PDF and reposted -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230404#230404 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:04 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security This is an unfortunate circumstance where the "picture guy" and the "dialogue guy" did not get on the same page...literally....before this Service Bulletin went out. It's too bad too, because it leaves us builders to try to figure out if the situation calls for the 1 -1/4" overlap of turledeck and skylight, or the "apparent" 5/8" of overlap as shown on the drawing. What do we follow...words or picture? Just to interject my own situation, I followed the *Kitfox* drawing and dialogue, and mine came out closer to the 5/8" dimension. I have not had the trouble that James has had and I do a LOT of slips to both sides. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying On Feb 15, 2009, at 2:58 PM, WurlyBird wrote: > > > I re-read it two more times, everything is indicating that the > minimum required 1 1/4" is measured from the front of FC-3. Do you > have 1 1/4" of lexan that overlaps the turtle deck? Can I get a > quick poll on this from a few people? I can certainly see that the > extra would help keep everything together. > > -------- > James > Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop > 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230377#230377 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/avid_clip_189.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "Paul Franz" On Sun, February 15, 2009 2:38 pm, akflyer wrote: > > marked up the PDF and reposted Excellent! Now this is perfectly clear. However, I must point out that the markup did not get distributed to the e-mail list but it appears in the forum posting just fine. click this link to see Leni's (Snakeman's) perfectly clear markup. > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1260 > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230404#230404 > > -- Paul Franz 425.440.9505 (O) 425.241.1618 (C) ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:04 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "akflyer" Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote: > On Sun, February 15, 2009 2:38 pm, akflyer wrote: > > > > > > > marked up the PDF and reposted > > > > > > Excellent! Now this is perfectly clear. However, I must point out that the markup did > not get distributed to the e-mail list but it appears in the forum posting just fine. > click this link to see Leni's (Snakeman's) perfectly clear markup. > > > > > > > > -------- > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE > > Soldotna AK > > Avid "C" / Mk IV > > 582 IVO IFA > > Full Lotus 1260 > > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 > > > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 30404#230404 > > > > > > > > > -- > Paul Franz > 425.440.9505 (O) > 425.241.1618 (C) Paul, I think it is because the PDF did not attach right when I first made the post. I edited the post and now it shows up on the forum, but not to anyone who is just using emails. For the sake of all, I will post the attachment again with this reply. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230429#230429 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/turtle_deck_marked_up_211.pdf ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:14 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security Len=2C Thanks for info. I made my 2 piece windshield cabin top same as orig inal it has about 5/8 " overlap. Guess I'll have to install the aluminum ov erhang addition to be safe. Hard to believe 5/8" isn't adequate. do not archivePat ReillyMod 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL> Date: Sun=2C 15 Fe b 2009 16:04:29 -0800> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue=2C turtle de ck security> From: paul@eucleides.com> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz" > > > On S un=2C February 15=2C 2009 2:38 pm=2C akflyer wrote:> > --> Kitfox-List mess age posted by: "akflyer" > >> > marked up the PDF a nd reposted> > Excellent! Now this is perfectly clear. However=2C I must po int out that the markup did> not get distributed to the e-mail list but it appears in the forum posting just fine.> click this link to see Leni's (Sna keman's) perfectly clear markup.> > > > >> > --------> > D O NOT ARCHIVE> > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE> > Soldotna AK> > Avid "=3BC&q uot=3B / Mk IV> > 582 IVO IFA> > Full Lotus 1260> > #1 snake oil salesman s ince 1-22-2009> >> > hander outer of humorless darwin awards> >> >> >> >> > Read this topic online here:> >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p hp?p=230404#230404> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > Paul Franz> 42 ========================> _ ==> > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:06 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security Perfectly clear, but is this 1-1/4" dimension really needed? The Kitfox seems to work ok with the 5/8" overlap, and this is the first time we've (I've, at least) heard of the turtledeck blowing out...or is it? Somebody with more time in type and on this list should be able to answer this question. Is there a Service Bulletin out on the Kitfox? Remember this is an Avid Service Bulletin. I'm not saying anything bad about Avids, just trying to understand why no SB on a Kitfox, if indeed there are none. Next is the history of this particular plane. Just the other day we had a flutter problem on this plane. Now we've got a turtledeck trying to exit the plane. How about thinking a bit further into this plane, and wondering if maybe the plane was sold because it exhibited some of these strange behaviors. How about a weak framework? How about a broken tube joint somewhere hidden from normal view that would allow the framework to flex? Did the new owner take the seats out, and look for any new welds, or broken ones? Are all the camlocks present and accounted for?...my plane has 9 of them holding the t'deck on...factory count. Are they tight? How thick is the windshield/skylight material? How many machine screws hold the rear of the skylight in place, or are they rivets as the Kitfox and the Avid drawings show? I chose to use machine screws and nutplates on my installation after I read of so many builders needing to replace windshields/skylights due to crazing/cracks, etc. That might account for some of the strength in that area that my plane apparently exhibits. Remember this is a recently sold/purchased airplane....maybe the buyer need to do more than kick the tires and light 'er up. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying On Feb 15, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Paul Franz wrote: > > > On Sun, February 15, 2009 2:38 pm, akflyer wrote: >> >> marked up the PDF and reposted > > Excellent! Now this is perfectly clear. However, I must point out > that the markup did > not get distributed to the e-mail list but it appears in the forum > posting just fine. > click this link to see Leni's (Snakeman's) perfectly clear markup. > > id=14596&sid=7a9dbd247008ae785633dd9eb88241c2> > >> >> -------- >> DO NOT ARCHIVE >> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE >> Soldotna AK >> Avid "C" / Mk IV >> 582 IVO IFA >> Full Lotus 1260 >> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 >> >> hander outer of humorless darwin awards >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230404#230404 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Paul Franz > 425.440.9505 (O) > 425.241.1618 (C) > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:32 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security Hard for me to believe too, Pat, but remember that this is an Avid Service Letter, *undated*, and refers to slips with the door open. Maybe this was released before Kitfox broke away from the "parent" organization, and Kitfox strengthened something after this, rendering this SL non-applicable to the 'fox. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system New skis done and flying On Feb 15, 2009, at 8:47 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > Len, Thanks for info. I made my 2 piece windshield cabin top same > as original it has about 5/8 " overlap. Guess I'll have to install > the aluminum overhang addition to be safe. Hard to believe 5/8" > isn't adequate. > do not archive > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford, IL > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:32 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Will any company insure a student/Kitfox? From: "815TL" Thank you all again. Falcon got back to me, and they found an underwriter that is willing to cover as soon as I have 10 hours of dual, and 10 take offs and landings. Not as bad as I thought at $950 for the year. I am still going to ask around at some of the suggestions you all have made, to see if I can get a better deal. Andrew Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230439#230439 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:23 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "Tom Jones" > We pulled the turtle deck off and reinstalled it and the front edge of it buts all the way against the metal strip which holds the gap under the window. All DZUS fasteners (camlocks?) were installed and are as snug as I would expect. So once again I am here with no ideas how to go about fixing this, or even if there is something to fix. I am not sure what could have caused this to happen. Any help is appreciated. > > James James, I just now went out and looked at my turtle deck. Mine is a Classic 4 and I have never seen a Model III in person. It may be different than a 4. I see no way the leading edge can come out from under the skylight trailing edge without some significant permanent bending. Attached is a picture of the inside of the leading edge on a Classic 4 turtle deck. Note the notch in the lower left where it fits around the rear spar carry through. Also the stiffening angles riveted to the inside of the deck. The camlock on the side near the leading edge. The wear marks where it has been fitting shows 5/8 inch overlap under the skylight lexan. Is it possible your turtle deck was installed with the leading edge on top of the trailing edge of the skylight by mistake before the flight? I would not hesitate to install the mod posted for the avid if you can't find a logical reason for what happened. It would be good to hear from some model III owners on this. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230447#230447 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/turtle_deck_603.jpg ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:23 PM PST US From: sbennett3 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security On a long cross country with the turtle deck FULL of cargo this happened to me. We landed at a controlled field that night and went home. When I returned the next day I noticed that it was the overloading of the turtledeck that caused this. I agree with the last post that maybe the deck was installed with the trailing edge over the lip. I don't know what else to call it but if it got loud and windy and cold in the cockpit, that's probably what happened. I'm not a builder, but this has happened to me as well... I bought a cargo sack from Kitfox and maybe we wont have to have this conversation again. Steve Bennett Classic 4 1200 912 Durham NC. In a message dated 02/15/09 22:15:27 Eastern Standard Time, nahsikhs@elltel.net writes: > We pulled the turtle deck off and reinstalled it and the front edge of it buts all the way against the metal strip which holds the gap under the window. All DZUS fasteners (camlocks?) were installed and are as snug as I would expect. So once again I am here with no ideas how to go about fixing this, or even if there is something to fix. I am not sure what could have caused this to happen. Any help is appreciated. > > James James, I just now went out and looked at my turtle deck. Mine is a Classic 4 and I have never seen a Model III in person. It may be different than a 4. I see no way the leading edge can come out from under the skylight trailing edge without some significant permanent bending. Attached is a picture of the inside of the leading edge on a Classic 4 turtle deck. Note the notch in the lower left where it fits around the rear spar carry through. Also the stiffening angles riveted to the inside of the deck. The camlock on the side near the leading edge. The wear marks where it has been fitting shows 5/8 inch overlap under the skylight lexan. Is it possible your turtle deck was installed with the leading edge on top of the trailing edge of the skylight by mistake before the flight? I would not hesitate to install the mod posted for the avid if you can't find a logical reason for what happened. It would be good to hear from some model III owners on this. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230447#230447 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/turtle_deck_603.jpg ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:30 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "vetdrem" My model 3 only has about 3/8"overlap. I have not had any problems with mine. I just tried to push it out by hand, to see if i could cause it to come out, but even applying more force than I was comfortable doing, I could not get it to pop out.. Louie Model 3 912ul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230453#230453 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Sun, February 15, 2009 7:13 pm, Tom Jones wrote: > Attached is a picture of the inside of the leading edge on a Classic 4 turtle deck. > Note the notch in the lower left where it fits around the rear spar carry through. > Also the stiffening angles riveted to the inside of the deck. The camlock on the side > near the leading edge. The attachment is actaully here: Rather than the improperly shown link in the e-mail distributed to the KF List: > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/turtle_deck_603.jpg Something goofy happens when a forum post with a picture gets sent to e-mail. Notice the extra forward slash in the posted link? Just enough so that the matronics web server can't resolve the file location. -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.