Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:59 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (fox5flyer)
2. 05:04 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (Noel Loveys)
3. 05:04 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson)
4. 05:31 AM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (Lynn Matteson)
5. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Chuck Popenoe)
6. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Bob Brennan)
7. 07:03 AM - Brakes, tires, hubs, rotors (charles cook)
8. 07:35 AM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Tom Jones)
9. 07:50 AM - Re: Brakes, tires, hubs, rotors (Pete Christensen)
10. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (patrick reilly)
11. 09:10 AM - Re: Adding wing tanks (AKFLYERBOB)
12. 09:37 AM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (WurlyBird)
13. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: Adding wing tanks (Bob Brennan)
14. 10:31 AM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (akflyer)
15. 10:31 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Guy Buchanan)
16. 10:33 AM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (akflyer)
17. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
18. 11:21 AM - Adjusting control stick? (815TL)
19. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson)
20. 12:27 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (WurlyBird)
21. 02:18 PM - Re: Adjusting control stick? (Guy Buchanan)
22. 02:20 PM - Re: Brakes, tires, hubs, rotors (Tom Jones)
23. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Guy Buchanan)
24. 03:41 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (WurlyBird)
25. 07:40 PM - Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 (Noel Loveys)
26. 08:57 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Marco Menezes)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Good post, Lynn. All very good points. I had a good look at mine, a S5 and
same setup as the 3. As far as I can see there is only one thing that can
cause that leading edge to come out and that is extreme bending of the
complete turtle deck itself. That is what the long stiffeners are for and
after fooling around with mine for a few minutes, I found that it just ain't
gonna happen. Before we all start tearing things apart and reinventing the
wheel, lets first ensure there is a real inherent problem and not an
isolated incident that is based on the method of fabrication.
Personally, I feel everyone should have a good look at theirs, but I don't
think it's an issue.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
>
> Perfectly clear, but is this 1-1/4" dimension really needed? The Kitfox
> seems to work ok with the 5/8" overlap, and this is the first time we've
> (I've, at least) heard of the turtledeck blowing out...or is it? Somebody
> with more time in type and on this list should be able to answer this
> question. Is there a Service Bulletin out on the Kitfox? Remember this is
> an Avid Service Bulletin. I'm not saying anything bad about Avids, just
> trying to understand why no SB on a Kitfox, if indeed there are none.
>
> Next is the history of this particular plane. Just the other day we had a
> flutter problem on this plane. Now we've got a turtledeck trying to exit
> the plane. How about thinking a bit further into this plane, and
> wondering if maybe the plane was sold because it exhibited some of these
> strange behaviors. How about a weak framework? How about a broken tube
> joint somewhere hidden from normal view that would allow the framework to
> flex? Did the new owner take the seats out, and look for any new welds,
> or broken ones? Are all the camlocks present and accounted for?...my
> plane has 9 of them holding the t'deck on...factory count. Are they
> tight? How thick is the windshield/skylight material? How many machine
> screws hold the rear of the skylight in place, or are they rivets as the
> Kitfox and the Avid drawings show? I chose to use machine screws and
> nutplates on my installation after I read of so many builders needing to
> replace windshields/skylights due to crazing/cracks, etc. That might
> account for some of the strength in that area that my plane apparently
> exhibits.
>
> Remember this is a recently sold/purchased airplane....maybe the buyer
> need to do more than kick the tires and light 'er up.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 15, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Paul Franz wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, February 15, 2009 2:38 pm, akflyer wrote:
>>>
>>> marked up the PDF and reposted
>>
>> Excellent! Now this is perfectly clear. However, I must point out that
>> the markup did
>> not get distributed to the e-mail list but it appears in the forum
>> posting just fine.
>> click this link to see Leni's (Snakeman's) perfectly clear markup.
>>
>> <http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?
>> id=14596&sid=7a9dbd247008ae785633dd9eb88241c2>
>>
>>>
>>> --------
>>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
>>> Soldotna AK
>>> Avid "C" / Mk IV
>>> 582 IVO IFA
>>> Full Lotus 1260
>>> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>>>
>>> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230404#230404
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul Franz
>> 425.440.9505 (O)
>> 425.241.1618 (C)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | what prop is the best,for a 582 |
Boy that's a good question to get things going... sort of like asking what
is the best flower, what is the best oiil or the best colour scotch
brite.... let's not go there again. Not this early in the silly season.
I have had two props on my plane so far and I have another one to put on the
new 912.
The first was a three blade GSC wood prop. It was a little long for the
float application and consistently picked up spray in the prop. I was
continuously filling and dressing the leading edge. I think that prop had
been over tightened at one time as when I set the pitch and torque down the
blades to spec they would always go back to the original setting. When I
found out the blades were almost fifteen years time expired I decided to go
with another prop.
Enter prop #2 an UL Ivo electric IFA. At first I was a little sceptical if
thei thin bladed prop would be able to pull my float plane. I needn't have
worried. It worked perfectly. Being an inch or so shorter than the GSC
meant it didn't lift the spray like the GSC so I didn't have the problems of
leading edge pitting. There are a few points about this prop.. First it
is worth your time to set the limits on the prop. It takes a little longer
but will be worth it in the end.
Secondly: This is a composite prop. It is not as hard a steel so you
should very carefully follow the instructions on installing the prop so as
not to damage the blades.
Next: The connector where the wires run into the hub I found to be weak and
several times the contacts came out in flight even though the locking screws
were in. Don't ask I don't know how. I ended up adding a couple of self
tapping screws into the connectors to snug things up That worked fine.
Finally: the slip rings and brushes are prone to water damage in rain. For
that reason I always kept but never used a couple of small wrenches that
would enable me to turn the brush carrier away from the slip rings if I
encountered any showers.
I think you will get lots of replies to this one.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Cmflyboy12@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582
yes it is, I got it backwords.Why I ask is I,ve had a ivo 3 blade on a
challenger 2 and I liked the way it adjusted.
_____
Need a job? Find
<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusye
lp00000003> an employment agency near you.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
One more thing I should point out about mine....there is no hinge in
my t'deck, as I chose to use the one-piece domed t'deck window from
LP Aeroplastics (John McBean sells them) and during the installation,
the hinge is removed and the framework of the 'deck gets fabricated
into a one-piece...non-hinged...part. Whether or not this make it
stiffer and therefore less susceptible to "blow-out" is debatable. I
think the original hinged t'deck is fine as it is if done like the
manual calls for...on a Kitfox IV at least, because that's the only
one I know about.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:57 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> Good post, Lynn. All very good points. I had a good look at mine,
> a S5 and same setup as the 3. As far as I can see there is only
> one thing that can cause that leading edge to come out and that is
> extreme bending of the complete turtle deck itself. That is what
> the long stiffeners are for and after fooling around with mine for
> a few minutes, I found that it just ain't gonna happen. Before we
> all start tearing things apart and reinventing the wheel, lets
> first ensure there is a real inherent problem and not an isolated
> incident that is based on the method of fabrication.
> Personally, I feel everyone should have a good look at theirs, but
> I don't think it's an issue.
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
> progress."
> - Joseph Joubert
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 8:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
>
>
>>
>> Perfectly clear, but is this 1-1/4" dimension really needed? The
>> Kitfox seems to work ok with the 5/8" overlap, and this is the
>> first time we've (I've, at least) heard of the turtledeck blowing
>> out...or is it? Somebody with more time in type and on this list
>> should be able to answer this question. Is there a Service
>> Bulletin out on the Kitfox? Remember this is an Avid Service
>> Bulletin. I'm not saying anything bad about Avids, just trying to
>> understand why no SB on a Kitfox, if indeed there are none.
>>
>> Next is the history of this particular plane. Just the other day
>> we had a flutter problem on this plane. Now we've got a
>> turtledeck trying to exit the plane. How about thinking a bit
>> further into this plane, and wondering if maybe the plane was
>> sold because it exhibited some of these strange behaviors. How
>> about a weak framework? How about a broken tube joint somewhere
>> hidden from normal view that would allow the framework to flex?
>> Did the new owner take the seats out, and look for any new welds,
>> or broken ones? Are all the camlocks present and accounted
>> for?...my plane has 9 of them holding the t'deck on...factory
>> count. Are they tight? How thick is the windshield/skylight
>> material? How many machine screws hold the rear of the skylight
>> in place, or are they rivets as the Kitfox and the Avid drawings
>> show? I chose to use machine screws and nutplates on my
>> installation after I read of so many builders needing to replace
>> windshields/skylights due to crazing/cracks, etc. That might
>> account for some of the strength in that area that my plane
>> apparently exhibits.
>>
>> Remember this is a recently sold/purchased airplane....maybe the
>> buyer need to do more than kick the tires and light 'er up.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> New skis done and flying
>>
>>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: what prop is the best,for a 582 |
I thought that common wisdom was to not use a wooden prop on a float-
equipped airplane. Maybe the key word here is "wisdom".
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 16, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Boy thats a good question to get things going... sort of like
> asking what is the best flower, what is the best oiil or the best
> colour scotch brite.... lets not go there again. Not this early
> in the silly season.
>
>
> I have had two props on my plane so far and I have another one to
> put on the new 912.
>
>
> The first was a three blade GSC wood prop. It was a little long
> for the float application and consistently picked up spray in the
> prop. I was continuously filling and dressing the leading edge. I
> think that prop had been over tightened at one time as when I set
> the pitch and torque down the blades to spec they would always go
> back to the original setting. When I found out the blades were
> almost fifteen years time expired I decided to go with another prop.
>
>
> Enter prop #2 an UL Ivo electric IFA. At first I was a little
> sceptical if thei thin bladed prop would be able to pull my float
> plane. I neednt have worried. It worked perfectly. Being an
> inch or so shorter than the GSC meant it didnt lift the spray like
> the GSC so I didnt have the problems of leading edge pitting.
> There are a few points about this prop.. First it is worth your
> time to set the limits on the prop. It takes a little longer but
> will be worth it in the end.
>
> Secondly: This is a composite prop. It is not as hard a steel so
> you should very carefully follow the instructions on installing the
> prop so as not to damage the blades.
>
> Next: The connector where the wires run into the hub I found to be
> weak and several times the contacts came out in flight even though
> the locking screws were in. Dont ask I dont know how. I ended
> up adding a couple of self tapping screws into the connectors to
> snug things up That worked fine.
>
> Finally: the slip rings and brushes are prone to water damage in
> rain. For that reason I always kept but never used a couple of
> small wrenches that would enable me to turn the brush carrier away
> from the slip rings if I encountered any showers.
>
>
> I think you will get lots of replies to this one.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cmflyboy12@aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:50 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582
>
>
> yes it is, I got it backwords.Why I ask is I,ve had a ivo 3 blade
> on a challenger 2 and I liked the way it adjusted.
>
>
> Need a job? Find an employment agency near you.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://
> forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
I just went out and measured the overlap on my Avid A and it measured
7/8=94.
I got the AD from Avid while I was building, so I added aluminum strips
both
top and bottom to increase the overlap, which was originally only about
=BD=94.
This has worked as advertised, as I routinely do extreme slips, doors
open
and closed, with no problem.
Pops
Checked by AVG.
2/16/2009
6:55 AM
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
It's not the double slash Paul, even
http://forums.matronics.com/files/turtle_deck_603.jpg doesn't work because
the picture is turtle_deck_132 not turtle_deck_603, which apparently does
not exist.
Bob Brennan(pedant emeritus) - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz -
Merlin GT
Sent: 15 February 2009 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Sun, February 15, 2009 7:13 pm, Tom Jones wrote:
> Attached is a picture of the inside of the leading edge on a Classic 4
turtle deck.
> Note the notch in the lower left where it fits around the rear spar carry
through.
> Also the stiffening angles riveted to the inside of the deck. The camlock
on the side
> near the leading edge.
The attachment is actaully here:
<http://forums.matronics.com/files/turtle_deck_132.jpg>
Rather than the improperly shown link in the e-mail distributed to the KF
List:
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/turtle_deck_603.jpg
Something goofy happens when a forum post with a picture gets sent to
e-mail. Notice
the extra forward slash in the posted link? Just enough so that the
matronics web
server can't resolve the file location.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 7
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| Subject: | Brakes, tires, hubs, rotors |
Anyone in need of Matco brakes,-new tires, hubs, wheels I have listed-s
ome on ebay.-
Charles Cook
N363KF -582
ATL=0A=0A=0A
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Just a thought for anyone that installs the Avid turtle deck overlap modification.
You should watch as you fold the wings the first time to be sure the aluminum
overlap extension doesn't dig into the top of the wing as you swing it back.
You might need to put a slight upward bend on each rear corner so the aluminum
will slide up on the wing fabric.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230503#230503
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes, tires, hubs, rotors |
I did a search and did not find the listing.
----- Original Message -----
From: charles cook
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 8:01 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Brakes, tires, hubs, rotors
Anyone in need of Matco brakes, new tires, hubs, wheels I have
listed some on ebay.
Charles Cook
N363KF 582
ATL
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Tom=2C Thanks for the heads up on the turtle deck extension.
Do not archivePat ReillyMod 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-Li
st: Re: New issue=2C turtle deck security> From: nahsikhs@elltel.net> Date:
Mon=2C 16 Feb 2009 07:34:52 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > --> Ki
tfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>> > Just a th
ought for anyone that installs the Avid turtle deck overlap modification. Y
ou should watch as you fold the wings the first time to be sure the aluminu
m overlap extension doesn't dig into the top of the wing as you swing it ba
ck. You might need to put a slight upward bend on each rear corner so the a
luminum will slide up on the wing fabric.> > --------> Tom Jones> Classic I
V> 503 Rotax=2C 72 inch Two blade Warp> Ellensburg=2C WA> > > > > Read this
topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230503
=====================> > >
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
Bob
Looks like John and Debra might have to chime in.
Sorry for the delay.
I looked thru all my stuff, Mod 1, 2 and 3 books. I found
instructions for building the wings with the different tanks
and a letter from Sky Star stating retro fit instructions had
been sent with the 13 gal tanks but I did not find the
instructions.
When I installed the 13 gal tk I removed the drag tube and one
rib. moved the short braces over one rib and re-riveted them w/glue.
The tk installed with construction silicone, not so flexible.
The wing had had a 6 gal tk.
Bob
--------
Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
KF Mod I and III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230527#230527
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
This on may be a lengthy post:
Lynn, I as well have started to question the competency of the builder of this
plane. It is a fantastic plane but a few details just seem to be neglected.
Notice the omission of the flaperon control horn bushing on the turtle deck.
Unfortunately details like this are not apparent until you read the assembly manual.
I am overall pleased with this plane but I suspect that over the years
I will find a few things that upset me.
So now on to the turtle deck, I read the assembly manual and my turtle deck and
wind shield appear to be constructed per the manual, which by the way only calls
for a 1/4" overlap of the 'deck. This kit was purchased in 1990 and per the
instructions there is only 7 DZUS fasteners. And there are stiffeners full
length. What I found is that CF-46 Skylight Angle is flexible and can be moved
forward. I have also noticed that nothing secures the green house to the fuselage
and so in flight the lift over the fuselage pulls the window up and separates
it from the root ribs, subsequently this shortens the overlap on the turtle
deck. I believe that this may be what was the biggest contributing factor
to the 'deck popping out.
So for now I am planning on doing the Avid mod. Any other observations or input
is appreciated. Has anyone done anything to secure the lexan to the top of
the fuse? I think that would be the greatest fix but I am not sure the lexan
could handle it.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230530#230530
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/turtle_deck_822.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/manual_extract_121.jpg
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
I've had a look inside my port wing and the pix online again and it looks
like I could simply mount two 6 gallon tanks without removing any struts
only cross braces. The braces are only glued in place and I assume gluing
the tanks and plywood in place will be stronger.
I haven't contacted either wingtanks.com or the McBeans yet as to which is
better to buy from and/or who sells the better tanks, it's too bloody cold
here anyway for that kind of work! I do have plenty of space with a barn, a
"shed" (large enough to park a plane, farm tractor, trailer and boat in at
once), and a large garage but none are enclosed enough to heat; so it's
off-season for me.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AKFLYERBOB
Sent: 16 February 2009 12:10 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Adding wing tanks
Bob
Looks like John and Debra might have to chime in.
Sorry for the delay.
I looked thru all my stuff, Mod 1, 2 and 3 books. I found
instructions for building the wings with the different tanks
and a letter from Sky Star stating retro fit instructions had
been sent with the 13 gal tanks but I did not find the
instructions.
When I installed the 13 gal tk I removed the drag tube and one
rib. moved the short braces over one rib and re-riveted them w/glue.
The tk installed with construction silicone, not so flexible.
The wing had had a 6 gal tk.
Bob
--------
Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
KF Mod I and III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230527#230527
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Tom Jones wrote:
> Just a thought for anyone that installs the Avid turtle deck overlap modification.
You should watch as you fold the wings the first time to be sure the aluminum
overlap extension doesn't dig into the top of the wing as you swing it
back. You might need to put a slight upward bend on each rear corner so the aluminum
will slide up on the wing fabric.
VERY good point, and one I did not think about. The first time I folded the wings,
it was apparent that it was going to hit. I cut each side at about a 45
deg. angle and rounded the corners so it would not hit. GREAT catch!
Whurly, on my avid, it has a partial rib across the center of the skylight (greenhouse)
that has rivets in it to keep the screen from ballooning up just as you
have shown on the drawing you attached. May be an easy fix for you to add
it if you so desire. I can get a good pic of how Avid did it if you are interested.
The only drawback to it, is now I cant hang my head set over the center
cross bar like I can on my Brothers KF II.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230540#230540
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
At 09:36 AM 2/16/2009, you wrote:
>Has anyone done anything to secure the lexan to the top of the
>fuse? I think that would be the greatest fix but I am not sure the
>lexan could handle it.
James,
You mean it's not secured AT ALL? Mine is secured on the
perimeter, about every 2" with screws into floating nut plates.
There's a set of ribs on the sides, and the aluminum angle in the
back. Down the fore and aft centerline there's a "T", but the
skylight just rests on it; there are no fasteners.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
WurlyBird wrote:
> This on may be a lengthy post:
>
> Lynn, I as well have started to question the competency of the builder of this
plane. It is a fantastic plane but a few details just seem to be neglected.
Notice the omission of the flaperon control horn bushing on the turtle deck.
Unfortunately details like this are not apparent until you read the assembly
manual. I am overall pleased with this plane but I suspect that over the years
I will find a few things that upset me.
>
> So now on to the turtle deck, I read the assembly manual and my turtle deck and
wind shield appear to be constructed per the manual, which by the way only
calls for a 1/4" overlap of the 'deck. This kit was purchased in 1990 and per
the instructions there is only 7 DZUS fasteners. And there are stiffeners full
length. What I found is that CF-46 Skylight Angle is flexible and can be moved
forward. I have also noticed that nothing secures the green house to the
fuselage and so in flight the lift over the fuselage pulls the window up and
separates it from the root ribs, subsequently this shortens the overlap on the
turtle deck. I believe that this may be what was the biggest contributing factor
to the 'deck popping out.
>
> So for now I am planning on doing the Avid mod. Any other observations or input
is appreciated. Has anyone done anything to secure the lexan to the top of
the fuse? I think that would be the greatest fix but I am not sure the lexan
could handle it.
I think you have have just figured out where your flutter came from... without
the bearing blocks in the turtle deck, I would put money on it that the flutter
started right there. It is VERY specific in the Avid manual to put them in
and not doing so can lead to flutter. It is also specific that it needs to be
touching on the top not letting it flop around at all.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230542#230542
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
On Mon, February 16, 2009 6:48 am, Bob Brennan wrote:
>
> It's not the double slash Paul, even
> http://forums.matronics.com/files/turtle_deck_603.jpg doesn't work because
> the picture is turtle_deck_132 not turtle_deck_603, which apparently does
> not exist.
Oops, my bad. I at least noticed that the link was wrong in the e-mail and got
the
correct one from the forum. I've seen this problem happen before too. I think Matt
Dralle out to upgrade to the latest version of phpBB. It's running 2.0 and version
3
with a lot of bug fixes and enhancements is out now.
>
> Bob Brennan(pedant emeritus) - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz -
> Merlin GT
> Sent: 15 February 2009 11:11 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
>
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Sun, February 15, 2009 7:13 pm, Tom Jones wrote:
>
>> Attached is a picture of the inside of the leading edge on a Classic 4
> turtle deck.
>> Note the notch in the lower left where it fits around the rear spar carry
> through.
>> Also the stiffening angles riveted to the inside of the deck. The camlock
> on the side
>> near the leading edge.
>
> The attachment is actaully here:
>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/files/turtle_deck_132.jpg>
>
> Rather than the improperly shown link in the e-mail distributed to the KF
> List:
>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/turtle_deck_603.jpg
>
> Something goofy happens when a forum post with a picture gets sent to
> e-mail. Notice
> the extra forward slash in the posted link? Just enough so that the
> matronics web
> server can't resolve the file location.
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
>
--
Paul Franz
425.440.9505 (O)
425.241.1618 (C)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Adjusting control stick? |
Hey guys, quick question. The stick in my plane seems to be quite far forward,
even when in straight and level flihgt. It feels like I need longer arms to
reach it. There appears to be a way to adjust the stick position, but I am not
sure if I should. I would like to pull it back a little, but I don't want to
limit the travel of the elevator upards. It seems if I adjust it, it will hit
the seat/cushions sooner, limiting elevator travel.
What is the best way to change this?
Andrew,
815TL, Kitfox II, Rotax 582-C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230550#230550
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Omigod, yes, there should be fasteners all along the butt ribs to
hold the skylight/greenhouse down...at least on a IV, and I'd think
on a III as well. My plans call for:
"If you're certain it's positioned properly (square at the back edge
and .4" aft of the #52903 spacer), lay out, drill #30 holes and cleco
along the butat ribs using a 2" spacing 1/4" in from the capstrip
inner edge."
The #52903 spacer is the CF-24 spacer. So Skystar only allowed for
0.4" of skylight overlapping the t'deck. But the key to this whole
scenario is the screwing down, or riveting down, of the skylight/
greenhouse to the butt ribs. I can't believe this was not done. I
just re-read my instructions for mounting the windshield, and
although Skystar tells you to drill and cleco along the butt ribs,
they don't tell you to go ahead and actually do the riveting...DUH!
Again, I was concerned with all the problems that the group was
having with windshields cracking and crazing, and elected to install
nutplates and machine screws along the butt ribs. A
picture is below...this picture is rotated 90 degrees clockwise.
Another question, James....does your plane have the center rib? This
is called the #27005 Skylight Rib, and because it doesn't have a
corresponding CF-XX number, it may have been a Model IV and later
addition/option. This is just a support for the skylight as it is not
riveted to the skylight.
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the reason for the
'deck popping out.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 16, 2009, at 12:36 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
> <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> This on may be a lengthy post:
>
> Lynn, I as well have started to question the competency of the
> builder of this plane. It is a fantastic plane but a few details
> just seem to be neglected. Notice the omission of the flaperon
> control horn bushing on the turtle deck. Unfortunately details
> like this are not apparent until you read the assembly manual. I
> am overall pleased with this plane but I suspect that over the
> years I will find a few things that upset me.
>
> So now on to the turtle deck, I read the assembly manual and my
> turtle deck and wind shield appear to be constructed per the
> manual, which by the way only calls for a 1/4" overlap of the
> 'deck. This kit was purchased in 1990 and per the instructions
> there is only 7 DZUS fasteners. And there are stiffeners full
> length. What I found is that CF-46 Skylight Angle is flexible and
> can be moved forward. I have also noticed that nothing secures the
> green house to the fuselage and so in flight the lift over the
> fuselage pulls the window up and separates it from the root ribs,
> subsequently this shortens the overlap on the turtle deck. I
> believe that this may be what was the biggest contributing factor
> to the 'deck popping out.
>
> So for now I am planning on doing the Avid mod. Any other
> observations or input is appreciated. Has anyone done anything to
> secure the lexan to the top of the fuse? I think that would be the
> greatest fix but I am not sure the lexan could handle it.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Again one of those things that you just don't realize unless you get to see a good
KF example for comparison, and then there is the manual, which admittedly
I misunderstood. As you can see in the pictures the green house is secured to
aluminum strips along the top of the butt ribs. From top to bottom it goes;
rivet, nylon washer, lexan, self adhesive felt strip, aluminum bar, other end
of rivet. This sits on another strip of adhesive backed felt on top of the cap
strip. There is a center rib but it is not secured to the lexan, it has a felt
strip on it as well as per the instruction manual. i suppose this was the
builders idea of making the window easy to switch out instead of using screws
like you Lynn. It looks like I am going to be grounded until I can get a new
piece of lexan. At this point I think if I completely replace the lexan and
secure it properly I will be in good shape. I will probably increase the overhang
a little since I will be replacing it anyway. Looks like the solo and rating
will be waiting a little longer. This sucks but it will also give me time
to get those bushings made and installed. And to think, we bought an already
built plane so we could spend more time flying then building. [Rolling Eyes]
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230555#230555
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/greenhouse2_163.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/greenhouse1_133.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Adjusting control stick? |
At 11:20 AM 2/16/2009, you wrote:
>I would like to pull it back a little, but I don't want to limit the
>travel of the elevator upards. It seems if I adjust it, it will hit
>the seat/cushions sooner, limiting elevator travel.
Andrew,
My stick follows an S-bend, and you're right, it hits the
cushions which are heavily cut back. I've seen sticks that were a
graceful bent curve aft 90 degrees, then a hard 90 up for the handle.
This latter was welded on. They provide the maximum clearance for height.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes, tires, hubs, rotors |
I found them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aircraft-brakes-wheels-tires-hubs-axels_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a570Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem330308312806QQitemZ330308312806QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ5fPartsQ5fGear
I'd bid if it was just the wheels.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230570#230570
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
At 12:25 PM 2/16/2009, you wrote:
>As you can see in the pictures the green house is secured to
>aluminum strips along the top of the butt ribs. From top to bottom
>it goes; rivet, nylon washer, lexan, self adhesive felt strip,
>aluminum bar, other end of rivet. This sits on another strip of
>adhesive backed felt on top of the cap strip.
Man that's weird. And I'd say it's definitely what caused
the lift. If your butt ribs aren't yet drilled you could probably get
away with re-using the skylight. Just set the Lexan down onto the
felt on top of the butt ribs and match drill. Be careful, though. I
had a lot of trouble getting the nut plates to sit perpendicular to
the skylight due to the way the butt ribs were made. There was a bit
of a fillet between the rib cap and rib. I had to Dremel a little
flat pad for each one. It was a real pain with the ribs already in place.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Hey Lynn, are those 6-32 anchor nuts you used? How did you go about attaching
them? I have ordered a new piece of lexan and I think it might be best to attach
it like you did since if i ever work out all the bugs I might keep this plane
for a while.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230579#230579
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| Subject: | what prop is the best,for a 582 |
I agree with you on that one but the GSC was on the plane when I got it.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582
I thought that common wisdom was to not use a wooden prop on a float-
equipped airplane. Maybe the key word here is "wisdom".
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 16, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Boy that's a good question to get things going... sort of like
> asking what is the best flower, what is the best oiil or the best
> colour scotch brite.... let's not go there again. Not this early
> in the silly season.
>
>
> I have had two props on my plane so far and I have another one to
> put on the new 912.
>
>
> The first was a three blade GSC wood prop. It was a little long
> for the float application and consistently picked up spray in the
> prop. I was continuously filling and dressing the leading edge. I
> think that prop had been over tightened at one time as when I set
> the pitch and torque down the blades to spec they would always go
> back to the original setting. When I found out the blades were
> almost fifteen years time expired I decided to go with another prop.
>
>
> Enter prop #2 an UL Ivo electric IFA. At first I was a little
> sceptical if thei thin bladed prop would be able to pull my float
> plane. I needn't have worried. It worked perfectly. Being an
> inch or so shorter than the GSC meant it didn't lift the spray like
> the GSC so I didn't have the problems of leading edge pitting.
> There are a few points about this prop.. First it is worth your
> time to set the limits on the prop. It takes a little longer but
> will be worth it in the end.
>
> Secondly: This is a composite prop. It is not as hard a steel so
> you should very carefully follow the instructions on installing the
> prop so as not to damage the blades.
>
> Next: The connector where the wires run into the hub I found to be
> weak and several times the contacts came out in flight even though
> the locking screws were in. Don't ask I don't know how. I ended
> up adding a couple of self tapping screws into the connectors to
> snug things up That worked fine.
>
> Finally: the slip rings and brushes are prone to water damage in
> rain. For that reason I always kept but never used a couple of
> small wrenches that would enable me to turn the brush carrier away
> from the slip rings if I encountered any showers.
>
>
> I think you will get lots of replies to this one.
>
>
> Noel
>
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cmflyboy12@aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:50 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: what prop is the best,for a 582
>
>
> yes it is, I got it backwords.Why I ask is I,ve had a ivo 3 blade
> on a challenger 2 and I liked the way it adjusted.
>
>
> Need a job? Find an employment agency near you.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://
> forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
James,
-
On my Model 2 the lexan overlaps the turtledeck about 5/8". Never had any p
roblems with it but it is attached to butt ribs and rear carry-through tube
as specified. Currently attached with sheet metal screws every 2 inches bu
t when I replace the lexan (next Winter probably) I'm considering rivnuts a
nd machine screws in the butt ribs.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
--- On Sun, 2/15/09, WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil> wrote:
From: WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
<james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
I re-read it two more times, everything is indicating that the minimum requ
ired
1 1/4" is measured from the front of FC-3. Do you have 1 1/4" of
lexan that overlaps the turtle deck? Can I get a quick poll on this from a
few
people? I can certainly see that the extra would help keep everything toge
ther.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230377#230377
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/avid_clip_189.jpg
=0A=0A=0A
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