Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:02 AM - Re: Fuel sight tube material? (Lynn Matteson)
2. 03:05 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson)
3. 04:06 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Guy Buchanan)
4. 04:06 AM - Re: Fuel sight tube material? (Guy Buchanan)
5. 04:13 AM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (Guy Buchanan)
6. 04:14 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (fox5flyer)
7. 04:29 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (fox5flyer)
8. 06:43 AM - Re: Greenhouse construction (Tom Jones)
9. 07:24 AM - Re: Seasonal change reminder (n85ae)
10. 09:07 AM - Re: Fuel sight tube material? (Cwehner)
11. 11:11 AM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (WurlyBird)
12. 12:05 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson)
13. 12:05 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (Lynn Matteson)
14. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson)
15. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (TIM VADER)
16. 12:29 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (Lynn Matteson)
17. 12:30 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Lynn Matteson)
18. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Guy Buchanan)
19. 03:07 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Weiss Richard)
20. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Noel Loveys)
21. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Lynn Matteson)
22. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson)
23. 03:56 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (WurlyBird)
24. 04:01 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Jim Crowder)
25. 04:25 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (patrick reilly)
26. 04:33 PM - Re: Adding wing tanks (dholly)
27. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (patrick reilly)
28. 04:55 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson)
29. 04:59 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Noel Loveys)
30. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Lynn Matteson)
31. 05:07 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Noel Loveys)
32. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (patrick reilly)
33. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (Lynn Matteson)
34. 05:46 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (patrick reilly)
35. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Lynn Matteson)
36. 05:58 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Lynn Matteson)
37. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (Lynn Matteson)
38. 06:16 PM - Re: Re: Adding wing tanks (Lynn Matteson)
39. 06:44 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Noel Loveys)
40. 07:00 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Noel Loveys)
41. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
42. 08:39 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (patrick reilly)
43. 09:04 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (patrick reilly)
44. 09:19 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Jim Corner)
45. 09:42 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Guy Buchanan)
46. 09:46 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel sight tube material? |
I got mine from John McBean, and they have suffered through nearly 3
years of use with 100LL. Can't say how they'd work with a steady diet
of auto gas, but I ran about 10 gallons of that stuff through them
and it didn't bother them that I could see. I believe John's tubes
are Tygon, but not sure.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 18, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Cwehner wrote:
>
> We are in the process of installing the fuel sight tubes for our
> Model IV that we received in a kit in the late 90's. The tubes are
> made of Butyrate. While researching installation examples I found a
> web site building log of a guy building a Model 6 with the Butyrate
> tubes. He said that after a few months auto gas had ate through
> the Butyrate tubes so he replaced them with Tygon. My question is...
>
> what is the current recommendation for tubing material? Should I
> use the Butyrate or something else?
>
> link to web log about the Butyrate getting eaten by auto gas.
> http://www.itsys3.com/kitfox/discover.shtml
>
> Thanks all
>
> --------
> Chris Wehner
> Tulsa, Oklahoma
> Kitfox IV, 912, lots a mod's, 80% complete
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230799#230799
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
You're absolutely right, Jim, and that's one of the reasons that I
went to machine screws....better control of the tightness of the
fasteners. Even if you used aluminum pop rivets with aluminum
mandrels, you have no control of the tightness after the mandrel breaks.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 12:25 AM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:
> I would not use SS rivits, because they will pull up a lot tighter
> than aluminum rivits and I would worry that it would mess with the
> expantion of the lexan leading to cracking. I did use 1/8" washers
> on the bottom of the aluminum rivits (that I bought from Fastenall)
> so they wouldn't pull through the butt rib. Just my 2 cents
> worth. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
At 05:56 PM 2/17/2009, you wrote:
>I noticed that the manual calls for aluminum rivets for this
>assembly, I assume this means that AN hardware would not be
>necessary and it would be no issue to just use some nice SS hardware.
James,
I too would worry about restraining the expansion of the
skylight excessively with SS rivets. However I use SS screws here, as
you suggest, and they're fine since the loads are negligible. (Indeed
I wonder if your rivets loosened under the thermal expansion load
instead of the flight loads.)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel sight tube material? |
At 09:18 PM 2/17/2009, you wrote:
> what is the current recommendation for tubing material? Should I
> use the Butyrate or something else?
Chris,
I use the blue "Bing alcohol resistant fuel line" available
at Aircraft Spruce and other places. I use it with 100LL but my 912
buddies use it with SoCal auto fuel with no problems.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Greenhouse construction |
At 07:41 PM 2/17/2009, you wrote:
>but I'll bet the
>installation of anchor nuts, especially the long version...the
>K1000's, not the MK1000's...will distribute the load just as good
>(well?) as the stainless steel or aluminum strip that I've read about
>here. How thick is this strip, and is it SS or aluminum?
Lynn,
I think the anchor nuts will distribute the loads as well as
the cap strip; and I are an engineer. ;-) My cap strip is backed with
about .03" aluminum, as there's no way to drill it without busting it
out if it's full-hard stainless. However I used the aluminum backing
strip AND anchor nuts, so I can't say which is better. I suspect
lock-nuts and washers would be just fine, if you're willing to put up
with the installation difficulty.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Exactly. Either washers or the aluminum strip as called for in the
manual.
do not archive
Deke
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
I would not use SS rivits, because they will pull up a lot tighter
than aluminum rivits and I would worry that it would mess with the
expantion of the lexan leading to cracking. I did use 1/8" washers on
the bottom of the aluminum rivits (that I bought from Fastenall) so they
wouldn't pull through the butt rib. Just my 2 cents worth. Jim Chuk
Avid MK IV Mn
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
> From: james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:56:57 -0800
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
<james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> Well here is an update that is pretty good news, well at least I now
know the builder was not a complete moron. It seems the green house
lexan was in fact installed into the butt ribs, however the rivets were
simple secured into the wood and they seemed to work their way out. I
plan to use washers for backing if I use rivets to secure the new lexan.
I am considering using screws instead. I noticed that the manual calls
for aluminum rivets for this assembly, I assume this means that AN
hardware would not be necessary and it would be no issue to just use
some nice SS hardware.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230781#230781
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>======================
&g======
>
>
>
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-----
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Correctly put, Lynn, and more important to those of you who use the LP
acrylic products. The folks at LP say to drill the holes 50 percent larger
than the fastener then after applying a thin foam 1/2" wide insulating seal,
use truss head screws and nuts (or nutplates), tighten down the screw until
it just begins to distort the acrylic, then stop. This can be easily done
by using reflected light. At this point the screw is not tight and can be
very easily turned in it's place. I personally used #6 screws and nylock
nuts and have had no problems since 2000. One of the advantages to using
machine screws rather than rivets is that it can later be adjusted.
I would also caution against using rivets as you can't control the tension,
something that is very important in avoiding cracking later on. If you have
to use rivets, get the softest ones you can. Don't use stainless. They're
way too strong and your windshield probably won't last a year before it
begins to crack.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 6:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
>
> You're absolutely right, Jim, and that's one of the reasons that I went
> to machine screws....better control of the tightness of the fasteners.
> Even if you used aluminum pop rivets with aluminum mandrels, you have no
> control of the tightness after the mandrel breaks.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 12:25 AM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:
>
>> I would not use SS rivits, because they will pull up a lot tighter than
>> aluminum rivits and I would worry that it would mess with the expantion
>> of the lexan leading to cracking. I did use 1/8" washers on the bottom
>> of the aluminum rivits (that I bought from Fastenall) so they wouldn't
>> pull through the butt rib. Just my 2 cents worth. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV
>> Mn
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Lynn Mattison wrote:
> I'm no structural engineer, or an engineer of any kind (I've got
> enough problems without being burdened with the massive ego of an
> engineer) except "seat of the pants" engineering, but I'll bet the
> installation of anchor nuts, especially the long version...the
> K1000's, not the MK1000's...will distribute the load just as good
> (well?) as the stainless steel or aluminum strip that I've read about
> here. How thick is this strip, and is it SS or aluminum?
Lynn, the backing strip for the skylight to butt ribs rivet reinforcement is 1/4
x .02 aluminum. I was wrong about it being stainless in my earlier post. I
edited that post to correct my mistake.
Pat Riley wrote:
> I have my cabin top on already and I don't think there is the metal strip on
the bottom of the rib. I am afraid my rivets are only through wood.Do you guys
have the metal strip on the bottom side of the outside ribs?
Pat, see my note to Lynn above, the rivet reinforcement strip is aluminum. I did
not use that strip. I attached the skylight to the butt ribs with 632 stainless
screws, washers and nylock nuts instead of rivets. I'll shut up no and
quit confusing people.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230824#230824
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Mine stays pretty constant after 5 years. The wood compressed a bit the first year
or so but rechecks fine now. I check every 50 hours. I also have
a Sensenich.
Located near Chicago, so pretty much same weather you have over
in Mich.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230827#230827
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel sight tube material? |
Thanks for the replies Lynn and Guy. Poked around through old threads and found
recurring issues with the butyrate tubing. I called Kitfox this morning and am
gonna go with the sight tubes from them. They use the Tygon tubing and were
also aware of some leaking issues with the old Butyrate stuff with the plastic
fittings.
Thanks again
--------
Chris Wehner
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Kitfox IV, 912, Final push for completion!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230842#230842
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
When I referenced SS hardware I was speaking specifically of the machine screws
and nuts and was not considering SS rivets. But I would not have thought about
those issues, so thanks. I am trying to figure out the best way to use machine
screws without taking three steps backward. I would have to remove fabric
around the butt ribs in order to secure anything but I would like to know it
is a one handed operation to remove and replace screws. I would also like to
use the aluminum strip and I am trying to figure out a way to secure the bolts
to that strip. Perhaps I could secure some regular lock nuts with epoxy to
the strip during the assembly.
Still thinking on it.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230860#230860
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
I would just drill out the existing rivets, and place an anchor nut
in the same location, fastened with solid, flat-head rivets. Once
this job is done, it's a one-handed job to use machine screws forever
after. Epoxy might give out later on, and if you had to remove screws
then, they would just rotate on you, unless you got them close to the
rib itself, then they might hold, but fall off when the screw was
removed. I didn't realize that the area was covered in fabric
already. I think you'd be better off biting the bullet and doing it
right, re-covering, and lay this problem to rest. Heck, you wouldn't
have to recover before you flew again, would you? I'm talking about
just removing the fabric around the butt rib...hey, why not just
slice the fabric, lay it back and tape over the area when the job is
done, go fly, and when the mood hits you, re-do the fabric in that area.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 2:10 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
> <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> When I referenced SS hardware I was speaking specifically of the
> machine screws and nuts and was not considering SS rivets. But I
> would not have thought about those issues, so thanks. I am trying
> to figure out the best way to use machine screws without taking
> three steps backward. I would have to remove fabric around the
> butt ribs in order to secure anything but I would like to know it
> is a one handed operation to remove and replace screws. I would
> also like to use the aluminum strip and I am trying to figure out a
> way to secure the bolts to that strip. Perhaps I could secure some
> regular lock nuts with epoxy to the strip during the assembly.
>
> Still thinking on it.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230860#230860
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Greenhouse construction |
Yeah, I'd be worried about drilling stainless under those
conditions...it could just push it away from its...glued on
(?)...status, much the same as the drilling through the rib capstrips
where the flaperon hinges attach. As you say, it's just the PITA of
locknuts and washers that I try to avoid. I'd rather take a little
longer attaching anchor nuts once than to do the loose nuts and
washer thing ever.
Regarding the engineer comment, sorry Guy, I was feeling a bit
aggravated toward an engineer friend. I'm sure I shared this gem with
you before "You can always tell an engineer...but you can't tell him
much." ...........one of my favorites. :)
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:11 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 07:41 PM 2/17/2009, you wrote:
>> but I'll bet the
>> installation of anchor nuts, especially the long version...the
>> K1000's, not the MK1000's...will distribute the load just as good
>> (well?) as the stainless steel or aluminum strip that I've read about
>> here. How thick is this strip, and is it SS or aluminum?
>
> Lynn,
> I think the anchor nuts will distribute the loads as well
> as the cap strip; and I are an engineer. ;-) My cap strip is backed
> with about .03" aluminum, as there's no way to drill it without
> busting it out if it's full-hard stainless. However I used the
> aluminum backing strip AND anchor nuts, so I can't say which is
> better. I suspect lock-nuts and washers would be just fine, if
> you're willing to put up with the installation difficulty.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Absolutely right, Deke, and having installed an LP Aeroplastics
windshield/skylight, I can say that that is just what their
instructions call for, and what I did. Heck, this is good info even
if the builder doesn't have the LP A components. If not explained
earlier, the reason for the oversize holes is to allow for thermal
expansion.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:27 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> Correctly put, Lynn, and more important to those of you who use
> the LP acrylic products. The folks at LP say to drill the holes 50
> percent larger than the fastener then after applying a thin foam
> 1/2" wide insulating seal, use truss head screws and nuts (or
> nutplates), tighten down the screw until it just begins to distort
> the acrylic, then stop. This can be easily done by using reflected
> light. At this point the screw is not tight and can be very easily
> turned in it's place. I personally used #6 screws and nylock nuts
> and have had no problems since 2000. One of the advantages to
> using machine screws rather than rivets is that it can later be
> adjusted.
> I would also caution against using rivets as you can't control the
> tension, something that is very important in avoiding cracking
> later on. If you have to use rivets, get the softest ones you
> can. Don't use stainless. They're way too strong and your
> windshield probably won't last a year before it begins to crack.
> Deke Morisse
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
James
When rebuilding my Kitfox I decided to fold a 1 1/2"" strip of aluminum in
a right angle, 3/4" each side. I notched one half of the aluminum strip continuously
along it's length so that it would bend to fit the curve of the capstrip
and riveted it to the but rib to prevent the capstrip from lifting. When reinstalling
the windshield I drilled out for the attachment holes through the capstrip
and aluminum angle and used 10-32 or 10-28 rivnuts along the capstrips
and rear strip of the skylight. This makes it a one handed operation to remove
or replace the machine screws.
I think that the capstrips are susceptible to pulling away from the butt ribs
mostly due to the fact that the tightening curve at the front of the butt ribs
makes the tension of bending the windshield over the curve want to pull up at
that point. I'm sure that the lift generated by the airflow adds to the upward
force.
Tim Vader
Kitfox IV
Great Plains VW
Calgary, Alberta
----- Original Message -----
From: WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
> <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
> When I referenced SS hardware I was speaking specifically of the
> machine screws and nuts and was not considering SS rivets.
> But I would not have thought about those issues, so
> thanks. I am trying to figure out the best way to use
> machine screws without taking three steps backward. I
> would have to remove fabric around the butt ribs in order to
> secure anything but I would like to know it is a one handed
> operation to remove and replace screws. I would also like
> to use the aluminum strip and I am trying to figure out a way to
> secure the bolts to that strip. Perhaps I could secure
> some regular lock nuts with epoxy to the strip during the
> assembly.
>
> Still thinking on it.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230860#230860
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Kitfox-List Email Forum -
> _-
> = - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> _-
> = - List Contribution Web Site -
> _-
> = -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Now you've got me to thinking, Tom, whether my butt ribs have this
backing under the capstrip, or if I only have it under my flaperon
hinge bracket locations on the ribs...I'll have to look, if I can see
in there. In either case, my installation has not given me any
problems, so I'm going to leave well enough alone.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Tom Jones wrote:
>
> Lynn Mattison wrote:
>
>> I'm no structural engineer, or an engineer of any kind (I've got
>> enough problems without being burdened with the massive ego of an
>> engineer) except "seat of the pants" engineering, but I'll bet the
>> installation of anchor nuts, especially the long version...the
>> K1000's, not the MK1000's...will distribute the load just as good
>> (well?) as the stainless steel or aluminum strip that I've read about
>> here. How thick is this strip, and is it SS or aluminum?
>
>
> Lynn, the backing strip for the skylight to butt ribs rivet
> reinforcement is 1/4 x .02 aluminum. I was wrong about it being
> stainless in my earlier post. I edited that post to correct my
> mistake.
>
> Pat Riley wrote:
>
>> I have my cabin top on already and I don't think there is the
>> metal strip on the bottom of the rib. I am afraid my rivets are
>> only through wood.Do you guys have the metal strip on the
>> bottom side of the outside ribs?
>
>
> Pat, see my note to Lynn above, the rivet reinforcement strip is
> aluminum. I did not use that strip. I attached the skylight to
> the butt ribs with 632 stainless screws, washers and nylock nuts
> instead of rivets. I'll shut up no and quit confusing people.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV
> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230824#230824
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Good to hear, Jeff. I think maybe mine was swollen with humidity
coming from Florida, then shrank after it arrived.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 10:23 AM, n85ae wrote:
>
> Mine stays pretty constant after 5 years. The wood compressed a bit
> the first year or so but rechecks fine now. I check every 50 hours.
> I also have
> a Sensenich.
>
> Located near Chicago, so pretty much same weather you have over
> in Mich.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230827#230827
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
At 11:10 AM 2/18/2009, you wrote:
>I would also like to use the aluminum strip and I am trying to
>figure out a way to secure the bolts to that strip. Perhaps I could
>secure some regular lock nuts with epoxy to the strip during the assembly.
Ooo. You might be able to save some time by riveting anchor nuts to
an aluminum strip, then epoxying / riveting that to the butt rib.
That way the anchor nut installation would be easy.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
I don't know if this will help, but there is a nutplate that doesn't
require riveting. You drill the hole for the fastener, peel off a
protective piece of plastic on the nutplate to expose a glued surface
and pull an attached plastic tang until the glued surface makes solid
contact with undersurface of the structure. Wait overnight and pull
out the plastic tang and the nutplate is ready for use. I think they
have fixed and floating versions. It's really slick. It may be a
little pricey at a dollar or two per nutplate, but if it works....
I believe the name of the company was Click Bond. A friend of mine is
building a Lancair 4P and is using them thru out his project.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:01 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 11:10 AM 2/18/2009, you wrote:
>> I would also like to use the aluminum strip and I am trying to
>> figure out a way to secure the bolts to that strip. Perhaps I
>> could secure some regular lock nuts with epoxy to the strip during
>> the assembly.
>
> Ooo. You might be able to save some time by riveting anchor nuts to
> an aluminum strip, then epoxying / riveting that to the butt rib.
> That way the anchor nut installation would be easy.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Are you guys using lock wire on your prop bolts? When I got my Ivo I called
to see if they forgot to drill the heads of the bolts. I was told they
preferred to not drill the heads because too many people don't like to cut
lockwire and the bolts whould be torque every ten hours (or so) with a
calibrated wrench. Personally I think the big thing is to make sure your
wrench is calibrated with in an inch Lb. or so of true.
With me it goes against the grain to see those nude bolt heads sitting there
with no lockwire on them but I do as I'm told and check the torque often.
Now I've got a warp two blade prop to install does anyone know where I can
find the manual?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
Good to hear, Jeff. I think maybe mine was swollen with humidity
coming from Florida, then shrank after it arrived.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 10:23 AM, n85ae wrote:
>
> Mine stays pretty constant after 5 years. The wood compressed a bit
> the first year or so but rechecks fine now. I check every 50 hours.
> I also have
> a Sensenich.
>
> Located near Chicago, so pretty much same weather you have over
> in Mich.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230827#230827
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Are you guys using lock wire on your prop bolts? When I got my Ivo
> I called
> to see if they forgot to drill the heads of the bolts. I was told
> they
> preferred to not drill the heads because too many people don't like
> to cut
> lockwire and the bolts whould be torque every ten hours (or so) with a
> calibrated wrench. Personally I think the big thing is to make
> sure your
> wrench is calibrated with in an inch Lb. or so of true.
>
> With me it goes against the grain to see those nude bolt heads
> sitting there
> with no lockwire on them but I do as I'm told and check the torque
> often.
>
> Now I've got a warp two blade prop to install does anyone know
> where I can
> find the manual?
>
> Noel
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
That sounds like a good idea if it holds. After all, once installed,
the nutplate is under tension until the bolt is unscrewed, then it is
subjected to rotating forces which put the glued surface under sheer
forces. If the glue is stronger than the resistive "self-locking"
feature of the nutplate, the screw will come out and all will be
well. If the glue now fails...years later, maybe...the plate will
have to be held...if it can be accessed, and a new one installed.
I still like the idea of the riveted nutplate/anchor nut, with its
shear-resistive rivets holding it in place.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:
> I don't know if this will help, but there is a nutplate that
> doesn't require riveting. You drill the hole for the fastener,
> peel off a protective piece of plastic on the nutplate to expose a
> glued surface and pull an attached plastic tang until the glued
> surface makes solid contact with undersurface of the structure.
> Wait overnight and pull out the plastic tang and the nutplate is
> ready for use. I think they have fixed and floating versions.
> It's really slick. It may be a little pricey at a dollar or two
> per nutplate, but if it works....
>
> I believe the name of the company was Click Bond. A friend of mine
> is building a Lancair 4P and is using them thru out his project.
>
> Rick Weiss
> N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
> SkyStar S/N 1
> Port Orange, FL
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Couple questions for ya Lynn;
Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?
I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the anchor nuts
call for. Also I am not experienced with solid rivets and I am not going to figure
out how on my butt ribs, ya know?
Is there a more reasonable place to buy these anchor nuts then AC Spruce?
The anchor nuts for the butt ribs alone cost over $100. It takes an awful lot
of my time before I think it is worth over $100 vs $1 for rivets.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230908#230908
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Lynn,
How do you know when it is too high?
Jim Crowder
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:24 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>
>
> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
> printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> >
> > Are you guys using lock wire on your prop bolts? When I got my Ivo
> > I called
> > to see if they forgot to drill the heads of the bolts. I was told
> > they
> > preferred to not drill the heads because too many people don't like
> > to cut
> > lockwire and the bolts whould be torque every ten hours (or so) with
> a
> > calibrated wrench. Personally I think the big thing is to make
> > sure your
> > wrench is calibrated with in an inch Lb. or so of true.
> >
> > With me it goes against the grain to see those nude bolt heads
> > sitting there
> > with no lockwire on them but I do as I'm told and check the torque
> > often.
> >
> > Now I've got a warp two blade prop to install does anyone know
> > where I can
> > find the manual?
> >
> > Noel
> >
>
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Man Oh Man. I checked the bottom side of my butt ribs. There is no metal re
inforcing strip on the bottom! I had to repair one wing tip. The last rib o
n the outside end of the wing had that metal reinforcing strip on the botto
m of the rib to keep the rivets on the wing tip from pulling through. What
the hell do I do now? Do I remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt d
own the cabin top? Do I use sheet metal screws in the wood? Or are the rive
ts through the wood just fine. The plane flew for 200 hrs as originally bui
ld=2C no metal reinforcing strip on the underside. But=2C I don't know what
type fasteners were used originally=2C as the windshield was not installed
when I got it. I guess I better look at builders manual. It seems that the
re are an awful lot of different methods being used by you guys to attach t
hat cabin top.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
> Date: Wed=2C 18 Feb 2009 15:27:39 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Now you've got me to thinking=2C Tom=2C whether my butt ribs have this
> backing under the capstrip=2C or if I only have it under my flaperon
> hinge bracket locations on the ribs...I'll have to look=2C if I can see
> in there. In either case=2C my installation has not given me any
> problems=2C so I'm going to leave well enough alone.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger
> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18=2C 2009=2C at 9:42 AM=2C Tom Jones wrote:
>
> >
> > Lynn Mattison wrote:
> >
> >> I'm no structural engineer=2C or an engineer of any kind (I've got
> >> enough problems without being burdened with the massive ego of an
> >> engineer) except "seat of the pants" engineering=2C but I'll bet the
> >> installation of anchor nuts=2C especially the long version...the
> >> K1000's=2C not the MK1000's...will distribute the load just as good
> >> (well?) as the stainless steel or aluminum strip that I've read about
> >> here. How thick is this strip=2C and is it SS or aluminum?
> >
> >
> > Lynn=2C the backing strip for the skylight to butt ribs rivet
> > reinforcement is 1/4 x .02 aluminum. I was wrong about it being
> > stainless in my earlier post. I edited that post to correct my
> > mistake.
> >
> > Pat Riley wrote:
> >
> >> I have my cabin top on already and I don't think there is the
> >> metal strip on the bottom of the rib. I am afraid my rivets are
> >> only through wood.=EF=BDDo you guys have the metal strip on the
> >> bottom side of the outside ribs?
> >
> >
> > Pat=2C see my note to Lynn above=2C the rivet reinforcement strip is
> > aluminum. I did not use that strip. I attached the skylight to
> > the butt ribs with 632 stainless screws=2C washers and nylock nuts
> > instead of rivets. I'll shut up no and quit confusing people.
> >
> > --------
> > Tom Jones
> > Classic IV
> > 503 Rotax=2C 72 inch Two blade Warp
> > Ellensburg=2C WA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230824#230824
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
Bob-
If you are concerned that adding two of the plastic tanks per wing will compromise
wing strength, I believe the oem recommended install for both Skystar and
Kitfox wing tanks requires removal of drag tubes and #2 rib with only silicone
holding the tanks in place, right? I know there are several more Avids with Skystar
wing tanks and no root end support tubes or #2 ribs (or, in the case of
Avid wings with 12" o.c. rib spacing, the #2 and #3 ribs), all seemingly flying
just fine. There certainly appears to be more than sufficient collective flying
hours among them to confirm adequate wing strength, so I think a better question
perhaps is whether wing structure after installing two plastic tanks per
manufacturer's instructions is at least as strong in comparison. I don't know
the particulars of your KF2 wing but the following info and pics should give
you something to compare to. Because there is sufficient difference between
a 'retrofit' (installed into an existing Avid fiberglass-wrapped wing tank as
shown on the wingtanks.com website) and a new 'clean' install, it's probably best
to look at each separately.
For reference, the Avid Heavy Hauler internal wing bracing includes, in part, (1)
long 1/2" dia. steel drag tube from rear spar at root to front spar at #4 rib;
and (3) short 5/16" dia. alum root rib brace tubes, (1) from front spar to
root rib web and (2) from rear spar to root rib web. Adding the Avid 'fiberglass
wrapped' wing tank replaced all of these supports plus the #2 and #3 ribs,
but added a few layers of fiberglass mat wrapped all the way around the f/r spars
to provide some rigidity and hold everything in place. The identical supports
and ribs are replaced when installing (2) plastic tanks per wing. To install,
(4) new alum support tubes for the plastic tanks to set upon are added between
and perpendicular to the f/r spars. An extra rib is installed between the
tanks and new upper and lower ply (or alum) skin is glued over the root to #4
rib bays and filled with expanding foam. Retrofitting the plastic tanks into
an existing Avid 'fiberglass-wrapped' wing tank involves removing the tank top
only, leaving the majority of the pre-installed tank intact. I have seen retrofits
done with ply installed in the bottom of the old tanks for the new support
tubes to set on (the recommended instructions I believe), but also without.
As with the clean install, no additional drag/anti drag tubes are added or omitted,
however, you lose the ability to add a new rib between the plastic tanks
when doing a retrofit.
Whether either of the plastic tank installs result in a stronger wing structure
than simply gluing the KF tank directly to the spars is up to you. More importantly,
deciding whether any of these install methods are safe on your experimental
aircraft is builder discretion. Personally, I'm ok with the plastic tank
install procedures. As Leni noted, an experienced aircraft manufacturer took
time to design and test both configurations before offering to the public, and
the Avid owners who retrofitted them appear to be satisfied. The ethanol proof
poly and ability to add a rib on my current project is very attractive, but
the higher cost per wing, loss of 6gals and fittings between tanks which might
be a b*tch to repair in a covered wing still have me a little gun shy. If the
ethanol resistance of the new 13gal Kitfox wing tank resin is as good as John
McBean said (ie. several months with 100% ethanol exposure and no degradation.)
and they can be fit properly in the flat bottom Avid speed wing, I certainly
won't dismiss them. I had Skystar tanks in an Avid HH and excepting the poly
resin was comfortable with that install as well. -Doug
p.s. - Hi Lynn, I posted here because my email and tel messages to Kitfox went
unanswered. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the "A" word, lol.
--------
Airdale Avid+ project | Jab2200 | Aerocet 1100 Amphibs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230915#230915
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank1_738.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank2_128.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank3_178.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank4_118.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank5_225.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank6_199.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank7_169.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank8_103.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/tank9_986.jpg
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Tom=2C Never shut up. And=2C you aren't confusing anyone. The strip in the
last outboard rib on me plane was steel of some sort. But=2C these are expe
rimentals=2C no 2 the same.
Do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
> From: nahsikhs@elltel.net
> Date: Wed=2C 18 Feb 2009 06:42:48 -0800
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Lynn Mattison wrote:
>
> > I'm no structural engineer=2C or an engineer of any kind (I've got
> > enough problems without being burdened with the massive ego of an
> > engineer) except "seat of the pants" engineering=2C but I'll bet the
> > installation of anchor nuts=2C especially the long version...the
> > K1000's=2C not the MK1000's...will distribute the load just as good
> > (well?) as the stainless steel or aluminum strip that I've read about
> > here. How thick is this strip=2C and is it SS or aluminum?
>
>
> Lynn=2C the backing strip for the skylight to butt ribs rivet reinforceme
nt is 1/4 x .02 aluminum. I was wrong about it being stainless in my earlie
r post. I edited that post to correct my mistake.
>
> Pat Riley wrote:
>
> > I have my cabin top on already and I don't think there is the metal str
ip on the bottom of the rib. I am afraid my rivets are only through wood.
=EF=BDDo you guys have the metal strip on the bottom side of the outside
ribs?
>
>
> Pat=2C see my note to Lynn above=2C the rivet reinforcement strip is alum
inum. I did not use that strip. I attached the skylight to the butt ribs wi
th 632 stainless screws=2C washers and nylock nuts instead of rivets. I'll
shut up no and quit confusing people.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV
> 503 Rotax=2C 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg=2C WA
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230824#230824
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Very possible, if you can find 3/32" rivets. Spruce has a poor
selection of rivets, but somebody has them, I'm sure. That's why I
used solid rivets and a rivet squeezer. Is there an EAA chapter in
your area? They might have one you could borrow. When I got my kit
there were 3/32 rivets with it, but only 1/8" long. I'm sure they are
out there somewhere. Maybe John McBean has a source, or you could
Google for them, perhaps. Also try Wick's.
Another thought....the solid rivets in the AN426A style are soft, and
as such, could be "bucked" with a hammer and bucking bar...a chunk of
steel. These rivets would probably be more than strong enough to hold
the K1000 anchor nuts in place. If worse came to worse, you could
remove the butt ribs by drilling the rivets holding them on...about
6-8 rivets per but rib as I recall, then take the butt rib to the
workbench and rivet the anchor nuts on where it will be easier to use
solid rivets and peen them by hand ...no special tools required.
Sounds like you are taking about the elastic-insert anchor nuts @
over a buck each, and 6-32's @ damn near $10...WOW! I used the all
metal anchor nuts @ 51 to 61 cents each...10-32 or 8-32.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:55 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
> <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> Couple questions for ya Lynn;
>
> Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?
> I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the
> anchor nuts call for. Also I am not experienced with solid rivets
> and I am not going to figure out how on my butt ribs, ya know?
>
> Is there a more reasonable place to buy these anchor nuts then AC
> Spruce?
> The anchor nuts for the butt ribs alone cost over $100. It takes
> an awful lot of my time before I think it is worth over $100 vs $1
> for rivets.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230908#230908
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Just out of curiosity what is the beef with lockwire? The only thing it
guarantees is the bolts won't back off. That close to the centre of
rotation weight is not a factor at that rpm. I keep feeling I'm missing
something here.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Are you guys using lock wire on your prop bolts? When I got my Ivo
> I called
> to see if they forgot to drill the heads of the bolts. I was told
> they
> preferred to not drill the heads because too many people don't like
> to cut
> lockwire and the bolts whould be torque every ten hours (or so) with a
> calibrated wrench. Personally I think the big thing is to make
> sure your
> wrench is calibrated with in an inch Lb. or so of true.
>
> With me it goes against the grain to see those nude bolt heads
> sitting there
> with no lockwire on them but I do as I'm told and check the torque
> often.
>
> Now I've got a warp two blade prop to install does anyone know
> where I can
> find the manual?
>
> Noel
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
If you have a "bending bar" style, it's easy to tell...but I
don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
there without clicking over, it's at that maximum or too high. I like
to use the inch-pound, as it's newer, but I may start to use the
bending bar ft-lb wrench, and check at 10-13 ft-lbs, but that's at
the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated, but how many guys
do that?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
>
> Lynn,
> How do you know when it is too high?
>
> Jim Crowder
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
>> list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:24 PM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>>
>>
>> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
>> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
>> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
>> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
>> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
>> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
>> printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Next question: How do you check if the torque is too high? The only way I
know of is to loosen the bolts and then re-torque them to spec. If the good
folks at Sensenich have a method to do this without first loosening please
let me know.
If a bolt is too loose then checking the torque is no problem, just torque
it to spec. I agree with you humidity certainly can change the pinch on a
bolt. Therefore the torque the bolt sees.
One of the things they made us do in our first year of technical school was
to do stress tests on bolts. Before pulling apart a bolt will actually
noticeably stretch... It's called necking ( just like in the back seat of
the 68 Mustang ) but the bolt gets noticeably thinner at the point where it
stretches. Funny thing is I can't remember seeing a nut giveway.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Are you guys using lock wire on your prop bolts? When I got my Ivo
> I called
> to see if they forgot to drill the heads of the bolts. I was told
> they
> preferred to not drill the heads because too many people don't like
> to cut
> lockwire and the bolts whould be torque every ten hours (or so) with a
> calibrated wrench. Personally I think the big thing is to make
> sure your
> wrench is calibrated with in an inch Lb. or so of true.
>
> With me it goes against the grain to see those nude bolt heads
> sitting there
> with no lockwire on them but I do as I'm told and check the torque
> often.
>
> Now I've got a warp two blade prop to install does anyone know
> where I can
> find the manual?
>
> Noel
>
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Sonex sells rivets. They have great prices and sone 3/32 nds. They don't ha
ve alot of lenght choices though.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue=2C turtle deck security
> Date: Wed=2C 18 Feb 2009 19:55:03 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Very possible=2C if you can find 3/32" rivets. Spruce has a poor
> selection of rivets=2C but somebody has them=2C I'm sure. That's why I
> used solid rivets and a rivet squeezer. Is there an EAA chapter in
> your area? They might have one you could borrow. When I got my kit
> there were 3/32 rivets with it=2C but only 1/8" long. I'm sure they are
> out there somewhere. Maybe John McBean has a source=2C or you could
> Google for them=2C perhaps. Also try Wick's.
>
> Another thought....the solid rivets in the AN426A style are soft=2C and
> as such=2C could be "bucked" with a hammer and bucking bar...a chunk of
> steel. These rivets would probably be more than strong enough to hold
> the K1000 anchor nuts in place. If worse came to worse=2C you could
> remove the butt ribs by drilling the rivets holding them on...about
> 6-8 rivets per but rib as I recall=2C then take the butt rib to the
> workbench and rivet the anchor nuts on where it will be easier to use
> solid rivets and peen them by hand ...no special tools required.
>
> Sounds like you are taking about the elastic-insert anchor nuts @
> over a buck each=2C and 6-32's @ damn near $10...WOW! I used the all
> metal anchor nuts @ 51 to 61 cents each...10-32 or 8-32.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger
> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18=2C 2009=2C at 6:55 PM=2C WurlyBird wrote:
>
> > <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
> >
> > Couple questions for ya Lynn=3B
> >
> > Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?
> > I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the
> > anchor nuts call for. Also I am not experienced with solid rivets
> > and I am not going to figure out how on my butt ribs=2C ya know?
> >
> > Is there a more reasonable place to buy these anchor nuts then AC
> > Spruce?
> > The anchor nuts for the butt ribs alone cost over $100. It takes
> > an awful lot of my time before I think it is worth over $100 vs $1
> > for rivets.
> >
> > --------
> > James
> > Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> > 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230908#230908
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
That metal reinforcing strip is only good in the area near where the
rivets go through it, and a little distance beyond. So the rivets, if
you choose to use them with a large-area...relatively
speaking...washer, they should serve roughly the same purpose. Of
course, the addition of the metal angles added to the rib/capstrip
junction sounds like a good idea. I can't remember whether I did this
or not. If I didn't, it sounds like it is unnecessary, as I've been
tossed about a little bit in mine and no apparent damage done.
I would never use metal screws into the wood...maybe only to get home
in an emergency.
Well, being as how the builder's manual that I have calls for
drilling and cleco'ing the skylight, and doesn't mention doing any
attaching beyond that, I'd say they think the cleco's will hold it
on! Keep in mind that I have the Model IV manual and yours may
actually tell you how to finish up the job. Kidding aside, it all
depends on a few factors...what is the Vne of your plane, and how
hard will you fly it? How many violent storms or weather will you fly
in? Will the plane see turbulence? Of course, none of us know these
answers..most of them anyway, so we try to follow the manual or later
service bulletins, or call those building the plane now...John
McBean....and see if any new methods have come into existence.
When I installed my wing tips, I ordered the "removable wing tip kit"
consisting of...what else?....Aluminum strips, K1000 anchor nuts and
machine screws to attach the tips after the anchor-nutted strips were
flush-riveted in place. More work? You bet, but once done, it's done
right, and they can be removed with one hand, a screwdriver, and no
drill.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:23 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Man Oh Man. I checked the bottom side of my butt ribs. There is no
> metal reinforcing strip on the bottom! I had to repair one wing
> tip. The last rib on the outside end of the wing had that metal
> reinforcing strip on the bottom of the rib to keep the rivets on
> the wing tip from pulling through. What the hell do I do now? Do I
> remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the cabin top?
> Do I use sheet metal screws in the wood? Or are the rivets through
> the wood just fine. The plane flew for 200 hrs as originally build,
> no metal reinforcing strip on the underside. But, I don't know what
> type fasteners were used originally, as the windshield was not
> installed when I got it. I guess I better look at builders manual.
> It seems that there are an awful lot of different methods being
> used by you guys to attach that cabin top.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Lynn=2C Agreed=2C sheetmetal or wood screws into the wood=2C I wasn't consi
dering. I believe someone said thats what they had though. At this point I
am leaning towards aluminum pop rivets with an aluminum washer on the botto
m side.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
> Date: Wed=2C 18 Feb 2009 20:30:51 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> That metal reinforcing strip is only good in the area near where the
> rivets go through it=2C and a little distance beyond. So the rivets=2C if
> you choose to use them with a large-area...relatively
> speaking...washer=2C they should serve roughly the same purpose. Of
> course=2C the addition of the metal angles added to the rib/capstrip
> junction sounds like a good idea. I can't remember whether I did this
> or not. If I didn't=2C it sounds like it is unnecessary=2C as I've been
> tossed about a little bit in mine and no apparent damage done.
>
> I would never use metal screws into the wood...maybe only to get home
> in an emergency.
>
> Well=2C being as how the builder's manual that I have calls for
> drilling and cleco'ing the skylight=2C and doesn't mention doing any
> attaching beyond that=2C I'd say they think the cleco's will hold it
> on! Keep in mind that I have the Model IV manual and yours may
> actually tell you how to finish up the job. Kidding aside=2C it all
> depends on a few factors...what is the Vne of your plane=2C and how
> hard will you fly it? How many violent storms or weather will you fly
> in? Will the plane see turbulence? Of course=2C none of us know these
> answers..most of them anyway=2C so we try to follow the manual or later
> service bulletins=2C or call those building the plane now...John
> McBean....and see if any new methods have come into existence.
>
> When I installed my wing tips=2C I ordered the "removable wing tip kit"
> consisting of...what else?....Aluminum strips=2C K1000 anchor nuts and
> machine screws to attach the tips after the anchor-nutted strips were
> flush-riveted in place. More work? You bet=2C but once done=2C it's done
> right=2C and they can be removed with one hand=2C a screwdriver=2C and no
> drill.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger
> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18=2C 2009=2C at 7:23 PM=2C patrick reilly wrote:
>
> > Man Oh Man. I checked the bottom side of my butt ribs. There is no
> > metal reinforcing strip on the bottom! I had to repair one wing
> > tip. The last rib on the outside end of the wing had that metal
> > reinforcing strip on the bottom of the rib to keep the rivets on
> > the wing tip from pulling through. What the hell do I do now? Do I
> > remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the cabin top?
> > Do I use sheet metal screws in the wood? Or are the rivets through
> > the wood just fine. The plane flew for 200 hrs as originally build=2C
> > no metal reinforcing strip on the underside. But=2C I don't know what
> > type fasteners were used originally=2C as the windshield was not
> > installed when I got it. I guess I better look at builders manual.
> > It seems that there are an awful lot of different methods being
> > used by you guys to attach that cabin top.
> >
> > Pat Reilly
> > Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> > Rockford=2C IL
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
No beef with it as far as I'm concerned, but you have to remove it
every time you want to check torque, and it really doesn't do
anything to hold the torque setting. It just keeps the nuts from
rotating off the bolts. With a metal prop and no humidity changes to
consider, the torque check on a metal prop is how many hours?(Actual
question...I don't know, but I'll bet it is around a 100 hrs) With a
wooden prop, and humidity changes occurring possibly weekly, removing
lockwire is a pain in the ass.
You should see the half-assed method Jabiru came up with to insure
the tightness of their (soft wood) Jabiru-manufactured props...they
have you stack 6 belleville washers "tow-to-tow" (their educated
spelling, not mine) and slide them onto the prop bolts, then install
nylock nuts and them torque to some figure. The idea being that this
combo of washers, like this:....()()()...will act like a big spring
and be able to "give and take" with changes in humidity. I was told
by the local Jab dealer that this was because the Jabiru-made
props...not Sensenich props FOR a Jabiru...were made from some very
soft wood found right there in Australia. Good old Jabiru, always
willing to use crap to get something on the market...have I sold any
Jabiru engines tonight?....always willing and glad to help. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:57 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity what is the beef with lockwire? The only
> thing it
> guarantees is the bolts won't back off. That close to the centre of
> rotation weight is not a factor at that rpm. I keep feeling I'm
> missing
> something here.
>
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 7:54 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>
>
> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
> printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>
>> Are you guys using lock wire on your prop bolts? When I got my Ivo
>> I called
>> to see if they forgot to drill the heads of the bolts. I was told
>> they
>> preferred to not drill the heads because too many people don't like
>> to cut
>> lockwire and the bolts whould be torque every ten hours (or so)
>> with a
>> calibrated wrench. Personally I think the big thing is to make
>> sure your
>> wrench is calibrated with in an inch Lb. or so of true.
>>
>> With me it goes against the grain to see those nude bolt heads
>> sitting there
>> with no lockwire on them but I do as I'm told and check the torque
>> often.
>>
>> Now I've got a warp two blade prop to install does anyone know
>> where I can
>> find the manual?
>>
>> Noel
>>
>
>
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
See my answer earlier to Jim Crowder. When I find out their method
I'll post it, but it seems like if you find the torque going over the
maximum, you'd have to back it off and start over. But if the torque
is too high, then wouldn't the wood fibers already have been crushed,
and wouldn't it be better to leave it at that setting? That is the
question that I'll be asking Sensenich.
In fact, there are connecting rod bolts on some engines (can't recall
which) that are "torqued" by tightening until a micrometer
measurement taken on the length of the bolt reveals a certain
stretching has been reached. How'd you like to have to do this on
every bolt in an engine?
I've seen nuts strip by overtorqueing, and it didn't do the bolt any
good, but it wasn't necked. I've seen necked bolts too.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 18, 2009, at 8:07 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Next question: How do you check if the torque is too high? The
> only way I
> know of is to loosen the bolts and then re-torque them to spec. If
> the good
> folks at Sensenich have a method to do this without first loosening
> please
> let me know.
>
> If a bolt is too loose then checking the torque is no problem, just
> torque
> it to spec. I agree with you humidity certainly can change the
> pinch on a
> bolt. Therefore the torque the bolt sees.
>
> One of the things they made us do in our first year of technical
> school was
> to do stress tests on bolts. Before pulling apart a bolt will
> actually
> noticeably stretch... It's called necking ( just like in the back
> seat of
> the 68 Mustang ) but the bolt gets noticeably thinner at the point
> where it
> stretches. Funny thing is I can't remember seeing a nut giveway.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 7:54 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>
>
> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
> printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>
>> Are you guys using lock wire on your prop bolts? When I got my Ivo
>> I called
>> to see if they forgot to drill the heads of the bolts. I was told
>> they
>> preferred to not drill the heads because too many people don't like
>> to cut
>> lockwire and the bolts whould be torque every ten hours (or so)
>> with a
>> calibrated wrench. Personally I think the big thing is to make
>> sure your
>> wrench is calibrated with in an inch Lb. or so of true.
>>
>> With me it goes against the grain to see those nude bolt heads
>> sitting there
>> with no lockwire on them but I do as I'm told and check the torque
>> often.
>>
>> Now I've got a warp two blade prop to install does anyone know
>> where I can
>> find the manual?
>>
>> Noel
>>
>
>
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Probably a good plan, Pat...maybe even steel washers underneath, just
to keep a flat surface contact instead of a possible dished one.
Important to get a good diametral fit to the rivet, though, with
either. Another thing to consider...aluminum mandrels, or steel?
Maybe a knowledgeable engineer might offer some help here. : ) An
aluminum mandrel might not allow enough squeeze before popping, while
a steel mandrel might squeeze too much.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 8:44 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, Agreed, sheetmetal or wood screws into the wood, I wasn't
> considering. I believe someone said thats what they had though. At
> this point I am leaning towards aluminum pop rivets with an
> aluminum washer on the bottom side.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
>
> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
> > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:30:51 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > That metal reinforcing strip is only good in the area near where the
> > rivets go through it, and a little distance beyond. So the
> rivets, if
> > you choose to use them with a large-area...relatively
> > speaking...washer, they should serve roughly the same purpose. Of
> > course, the addition of the metal angles added to the rib/capstrip
> > junction sounds like a good idea. I can't remember whether I did
> this
> > or not. If I didn't, it sounds like it is unnecessary, as I've been
> > tossed about a little bit in mine and no apparent damage done.
> >
> > I would never use metal screws into the wood...maybe only to get
> home
> > in an emergency.
> >
> > Well, being as how the builder's manual that I have calls for
> > drilling and cleco'ing the skylight, and doesn't mention doing any
> > attaching beyond that, I'd say they think the cleco's will hold it
> > on! Keep in mind that I have the Model IV manual and yours may
> > actually tell you how to finish up the job. Kidding aside, it all
> > depends on a few factors...what is the Vne of your plane, and how
> > hard will you fly it? How many violent storms or weather will you
> fly
> > in? Will the plane see turbulence? Of course, none of us know these
> > answers..most of them anyway, so we try to follow the manual or
> later
> > service bulletins, or call those building the plane now...John
> > McBean....and see if any new methods have come into existence.
> >
> > When I installed my wing tips, I ordered the "removable wing tip
> kit"
> > consisting of...what else?....Aluminum strips, K1000 anchor nuts and
> > machine screws to attach the tips after the anchor-nutted strips
> were
> > flush-riveted in place. More work? You bet, but once done, it's done
> > right, and they can be removed with one hand, a screwdriver, and no
> > drill.
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > New skis done and flying
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:23 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> >
> > > Man Oh Man. I checked the bottom side of my butt ribs. There is no
> > > metal reinforcing strip on the bottom! I had to repair one wing
> > > tip. The last rib on the outside end of the wing had that metal
> > > reinforcing strip on the bottom of the rib to keep the rivets on
> > > the wing tip from pulling through. What the hell do I do now? Do I
> > > remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the cabin top?
> > > Do I use sheet metal screws in the wood? Or are the rivets through
> > > the wood just fine. The plane flew for 200 hrs as originally
> build,
> > > no metal reinforcing strip on the underside. But, I don't know
> what
> > > type fasteners were used originally, as the windshield was not
> > > installed when I got it. I guess I better look at builders manual.
> > > It seems that there are an awful lot of different methods being
> > > used by you guys to attach that cabin top.
> > >
> > > Pat Reilly
> > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild>==
> >
> >
> >
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
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| Subject: | Re: Adding wing tanks |
Oops! Gotta wonder if the Avid and Kitfox "cousins" had an agreeable
Christmas holiday or whether a fight broke out. : ) Seriously, I
doubt that the new owners carry any grudge towards their earlier
ancestors and kinfolk.
Maybe they've been to aircraft shows? Sebring, maybe?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:32 PM, dholly wrote:
>
> p.s. - Hi Lynn, I posted here because my email and tel messages to
> Kitfox went unanswered. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the "A"
> word, lol.
>
> --------
> Airdale Avid+ project | Jab2200 | Aerocet 1100 Amphibs
>
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
I did it using a known weight hung on the handle at a specific distance ( 5
- 10 in. ) I just nipped the square end into the vice and hung 20 lb on the
horizontal handle at the appropriate distances. I found my click stop
wrench clicked at 187 in lb when set for 200 lb. was about 7% too high. I
have checked the calibration since then every year Usually in the spring but
have found no changes in it.
I have been told that the torque bar type wrenches don't have to be
calibrated as the bars don't tend to weaken. In fact the calibration
machines they use to calibrate click type wrenches is actually a torque bar
under the panel. I'd still calibrate it at least once just to make myself
happier. I've also been told that the new digital wrenches, if anyone can
afford them, are guaranteed to retain their calibration for ten years. Does
that mean at 10 yr + 1 day it gets replaced?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
If you have a "bending bar" style, it's easy to tell...but I
don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
there without clicking over, it's at that maximum or too high. I like
to use the inch-pound, as it's newer, but I may start to use the
bending bar ft-lb wrench, and check at 10-13 ft-lbs, but that's at
the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated, but how many guys
do that?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
>
> Lynn,
> How do you know when it is too high?
>
> Jim Crowder
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
>> list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:24 PM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>>
>>
>> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
>> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
>> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
>> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
>> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
>> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
>> printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
When I worked for the AMO (Cdn for FBO) we would give away most common
rivets up to a handful at a time just to help people out.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
Very possible, if you can find 3/32" rivets. Spruce has a poor
selection of rivets, but somebody has them, I'm sure. That's why I
used solid rivets and a rivet squeezer. Is there an EAA chapter in
your area? They might have one you could borrow. When I got my kit
there were 3/32 rivets with it, but only 1/8" long. I'm sure they are
out there somewhere. Maybe John McBean has a source, or you could
Google for them, perhaps. Also try Wick's.
Another thought....the solid rivets in the AN426A style are soft, and
as such, could be "bucked" with a hammer and bucking bar...a chunk of
steel. These rivets would probably be more than strong enough to hold
the K1000 anchor nuts in place. If worse came to worse, you could
remove the butt ribs by drilling the rivets holding them on...about
6-8 rivets per but rib as I recall, then take the butt rib to the
workbench and rivet the anchor nuts on where it will be easier to use
solid rivets and peen them by hand ...no special tools required.
Sounds like you are taking about the elastic-insert anchor nuts @
over a buck each, and 6-32's @ damn near $10...WOW! I used the all
metal anchor nuts @ 51 to 61 cents each...10-32 or 8-32.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:55 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
> <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> Couple questions for ya Lynn;
>
> Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?
> I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the
> anchor nuts call for. Also I am not experienced with solid rivets
> and I am not going to figure out how on my butt ribs, ya know?
>
> Is there a more reasonable place to buy these anchor nuts then AC
> Spruce?
> The anchor nuts for the butt ribs alone cost over $100. It takes
> an awful lot of my time before I think it is worth over $100 vs $1
> for rivets.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230908#230908
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Hi Lynn=2C can't you calibrate your bending bar torque wrench by putting t
he socket end in a vice with the wrench horizontal=2C and then hanging a kn
own weight on the handle 12" out from the center of the socket fitting? If
you hang 10 lbs on=2C it should read 10 lbs on the pointer if the wrench i
s accurate=2C ect=2C ect. I know I've done that. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
> Date: Wed=2C 18 Feb 2009 20:03:46 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> If you have a "bending bar" style=2C it's easy to tell...but I
> don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
> type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
> there without clicking over=2C it's at that maximum or too high. I like
> to use the inch-pound=2C as it's newer=2C but I may start to use the
> bending bar ft-lb wrench=2C and check at 10-13 ft-lbs=2C but that's at
> the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
> low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated=2C but how many guys
> do that?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger
> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18=2C 2009=2C at 6:59 PM=2C Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> > <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
> >
> > Lynn=2C
> > How do you know when it is too high?
> >
> > Jim Crowder
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> >> list-
> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
> >> Sent: Wednesday=2C February 18=2C 2009 1:24 PM
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
> >>
> >>
> >> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out=2C
> >> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact=2C Sensenich doesn't
> >> recommend it for their wood props=2C if I recall correctly. Metal prop
s
> >> I could see wiring=2C but not wood. In fact=2C I need to inquire of
> >> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
> >> They say not to loosen to check torque=2C but they don't say in their
> >> printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on
the go.
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Hey Guys=2C One thing I am doing that no one else is doing. You all have th
e heads of your screws or rivets bearing on the Lexan. I am using a 1/16th"
x 3/4" wide strip of aluminum on top of the Lexan drilled out for the row
of rivets front to back on the ribs and cross wise above the spar carry thr
ough tubes. I didn't do it=2C but if I was to do it again=2C I would put so
me sort of rubber tape on the bottom side of the aluminum strip to cushion
it slightly. I don't know it just looked like a good way to spread the hold
ing force of the rivets over a large area of the Lexan to me. I really don'
t like a bolt or rivet head bearing on a piece of plexi=2C even with a fend
er washer. I did the same thing on the plexi observation doors that I made.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
From: patreilly43@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
Lynn=2C Agreed=2C sheetmetal or wood screws into the wood=2C I wasn't consi
dering. I believe someone said thats what they had though. At this point I
am leaning towards aluminum pop rivets with an aluminum washer on the botto
m side.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
> Date: Wed=2C 18 Feb 2009 20:30:51 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> That metal reinforcing strip is only good in the area near where the
> rivets go through it=2C and a little distance beyond. So the rivets=2C if
> you choose to use them with a large-area...relatively
> speaking...washer=2C they should serve roughly the same purpose. Of
> course=2C the addition of the metal angles added to the rib/capstrip
> junction sounds like a good idea. I can't remember whether I did this
> or not. If I didn't=2C it sounds like it is unnecessary=2C as I've been
> tossed about a little bit in mine and no apparent damage done.
>
> I would never use metal screws into the wood...maybe only to get home
> in an emergency.
>
> Well=2C being as how the builder's manual that I have calls for
> drilling and cleco'ing the skylight=2C and doesn't mention doing any
> attaching beyond that=2C I'd say they think the cleco's will hold it
> on! Keep in mind that I have the Model IV manual and yours may
> actually tell you how to finish up the job. Kidding aside=2C it all
> depends on a few factors...what is the Vne of your plane=2C and how
> hard will you fly it? How many violent storms or weather will you fly
> in? Will the plane see turbulence? Of course=2C none of us know these
> answers..most of them anyway=2C so we try to follow the manual or later
> service bulletins=2C or call those building the plane now...John
> McBean....and see if any new methods have come into existence.
>
> When I installed my wing tips=2C I ordered the "removable wing tip kit"
> consisting of...what else?....Aluminum strips=2C K1000 anchor nuts and
> machine screws to attach the tips after the anchor-nutted strips were
> flush-riveted in place. More work? You bet=2C but once done=2C it's done
> right=2C and they can be removed with one hand=2C a screwdriver=2C and no
> drill.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger
> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18=2C 2009=2C at 7:23 PM=2C patrick reilly wrote:
>
> > Man Oh Man. I checked the bottom side of my butt ribs. There is no
> > metal reinforcing strip on the bottom! I had to repair one wing
> > tip. The last rib on the outside end of the wing had that metal
> > reinforcing strip on the bottom of the rib to keep the rivets on
> > the wing tip from pulling through. What the hell do I do now? Do I
> > remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the cabin top?
> > Do I use sheet metal screws in the wood? Or are the rivets through
> > the wood just fine. The plane flew for 200 hrs as originally build=2C
> > no metal reinforcing strip on the underside. But=2C I don't know what
> > type fasteners were used originally=2C as the windshield was not
> > installed when I got it. I guess I better look at builders manual.
> > It seems that there are an awful lot of different methods being
> > used by you guys to attach that cabin top.
> >
> > Pat Reilly
> > Mod 3 582 Rebuild>==
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Lynn=2C Lay off those engineers. The only problem with them is someone has
to tell them when the project is done and to stop engineering or they just
go on engineering into infinity. OK I'll use steel washers. I'm easy. I'm a
lso dyslextic. I'ts not dyslextic being easy you know.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
> Date: Wed=2C 18 Feb 2009 21:04:23 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Probably a good plan=2C Pat...maybe even steel washers underneath=2C just
> to keep a flat surface contact instead of a possible dished one.
> Important to get a good diametral fit to the rivet=2C though=2C with
> either. Another thing to consider...aluminum mandrels=2C or steel?
> Maybe a knowledgeable engineer might offer some help here. : ) An
> aluminum mandrel might not allow enough squeeze before popping=2C while
> a steel mandrel might squeeze too much.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger
> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18=2C 2009=2C at 8:44 PM=2C patrick reilly wrote:
>
> > Lynn=2C Agreed=2C sheetmetal or wood screws into the wood=2C I wasn't
> > considering. I believe someone said thats what they had though. At
> > this point I am leaning towards aluminum pop rivets with an
> > aluminum washer on the bottom side.
> >
> > Pat Reilly
> > Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> > Rockford=2C IL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
> > > Date: Wed=2C 18 Feb 2009 20:30:51 -0500
> > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > >
> > >
> > > That metal reinforcing strip is only good in the area near where the
> > > rivets go through it=2C and a little distance beyond. So the
> > rivets=2C if
> > > you choose to use them with a large-area...relatively
> > > speaking...washer=2C they should serve roughly the same purpose. Of
> > > course=2C the addition of the metal angles added to the rib/capstrip
> > > junction sounds like a good idea. I can't remember whether I did
> > this
> > > or not. If I didn't=2C it sounds like it is unnecessary=2C as I've be
en
> > > tossed about a little bit in mine and no apparent damage done.
> > >
> > > I would never use metal screws into the wood...maybe only to get
> > home
> > > in an emergency.
> > >
> > > Well=2C being as how the builder's manual that I have calls for
> > > drilling and cleco'ing the skylight=2C and doesn't mention doing any
> > > attaching beyond that=2C I'd say they think the cleco's will hold it
> > > on! Keep in mind that I have the Model IV manual and yours may
> > > actually tell you how to finish up the job. Kidding aside=2C it all
> > > depends on a few factors...what is the Vne of your plane=2C and how
> > > hard will you fly it? How many violent storms or weather will you
> > fly
> > > in? Will the plane see turbulence? Of course=2C none of us know these
> > > answers..most of them anyway=2C so we try to follow the manual or
> > later
> > > service bulletins=2C or call those building the plane now...John
> > > McBean....and see if any new methods have come into existence.
> > >
> > > When I installed my wing tips=2C I ordered the "removable wing tip
> > kit"
> > > consisting of...what else?....Aluminum strips=2C K1000 anchor nuts an
d
> > > machine screws to attach the tips after the anchor-nutted strips
> > were
> > > flush-riveted in place. More work? You bet=2C but once done=2C it's d
one
> > > right=2C and they can be removed with one hand=2C a screwdriver=2C an
d no
> > > drill.
> > >
> > > Lynn Matteson
> > > Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger
> > > Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 605 hrs
> > > Sensenich 62x46
> > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > > New skis done and flying
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 18=2C 2009=2C at 7:23 PM=2C patrick reilly wrote:
> > >
> > > > Man Oh Man. I checked the bottom side of my butt ribs. There is no
> > > > metal reinforcing strip on the bottom! I had to repair one wing
> > > > tip. The last rib on the outside end of the wing had that metal
> > > > reinforcing strip on the bottom of the rib to keep the rivets on
> > > > the wing tip from pulling through. What the hell do I do now? Do I
> > > > remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the cabin top?
> > > > Do I use sheet metal screws in the wood? Or are the rivets through
> > > > the wood just fine. The plane flew for 200 hrs as originally
> > build=2C
> > > > no metal reinforcing strip on the underside. But=2C I don't know
> > what
> > > > type fasteners were used originally=2C as the windshield was not
> > > > installed when I got it. I guess I better look at builders manual.
> > > > It seems that there are an awful lot of different methods being
> > > > used by you guys to attach that cabin top.
> > > >
> > > > Pat Reilly
> > > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild>==
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > =======================
> > =======================
> > =======================
===========
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Noel
Don't like your advice here as it does not take into consideration
the weight of
the wrench handle. This weight could account for your original 7%
error which
means you have been applying too much torque on all your fastenings.
You need to mount your wrench in the vice so the square end faces down,
then use a string and pulley arrangement with the known weight to
calibrate.
Jim
On 18-Feb-09, at 7:43 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
I did it using a known weight hung on the handle at a specific
distance ( 5
- 10 in. ) I just nipped the square end into the vice and hung 20 lb
on the
horizontal handle at the appropriate distances. I found my click stop
wrench clicked at 187 in lb when set for 200 lb. was about 7% too
high. I
have checked the calibration since then every year Usually in the
spring but
have found no changes in it.
I have been told that the torque bar type wrenches don't have to be
calibrated as the bars don't tend to weaken. In fact the calibration
machines they use to calibrate click type wrenches is actually a
torque bar
under the panel. I'd still calibrate it at least once just to make
myself
happier. I've also been told that the new digital wrenches, if
anyone can
afford them, are guaranteed to retain their calibration for ten
years. Does
that mean at 10 yr + 1 day it gets replaced?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
If you have a "bending bar" style, it's easy to tell...but I
don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
there without clicking over, it's at that maximum or too high. I like
to use the inch-pound, as it's newer, but I may start to use the
bending bar ft-lb wrench, and check at 10-13 ft-lbs, but that's at
the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated, but how many guys
do that?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
>
> Lynn,
> How do you know when it is too high?
>
> Jim Crowder
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
>> list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:24 PM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>>
>>
>> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
>> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
>> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
>> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
>> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
>> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
>> printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
At 03:55 PM 2/18/2009, you wrote:
>Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?
>I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the
>anchor nuts call for. Also I am not experienced with solid rivets
>and I am not going to figure out how on my butt ribs, ya know?
For 3/32 counter sunk rivets, see:
http://www.recreationalmobility.com/cgi-bin/recreation/28193.html
http://www.recreationalmobility.com/cgi-bin/recreation/28195.html
and
http://www.skygeek.com/hardware-cherry-rivetblind.html near the
bottom of the page.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
At 04:23 PM 2/18/2009, you wrote:
>Do I remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the cabin top?
Pat,
I'm a little confused. How did you confirm there was no
metal backing if you can't get to the underside without removing
fabric? I'm definitely not understanding your configuration.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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