Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:21 AM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Lynn Matteson)
2. 03:30 AM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (Lynn Matteson)
3. 03:30 AM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (Lynn Matteson)
4. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (fox5flyer)
5. 04:34 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (fox5flyer)
6. 06:04 AM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (Noel Loveys)
7. 07:09 AM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Noel Loveys)
8. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
9. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Noel Loveys)
10. 09:22 AM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Jim Corner)
11. 11:29 AM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Lynn Matteson)
12. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Noel Loveys)
13. 12:37 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (fox5flyer)
14. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Jim Crowder)
15. 02:48 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Lowell Fitt)
16. 02:57 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (WurlyBird)
17. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (fox5flyer)
18. 04:22 PM - Re: Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Dennis Golden)
19. 04:24 PM - Re: New issue, turtle deck security (Tom Jones)
20. 07:05 PM - Re: Re: Seasonal change reminder (Noel Loveys)
21. 10:36 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (patrick reilly)
22. 10:39 PM - Re: Re: Greenhouse construction (patrick reilly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Yes, the digital wrench should be considered junk and should be sent
to me for proper disposal. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 18, 2009, at 9:43 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> I did it using a known weight hung on the handle at a specific
> distance ( 5
> - 10 in. ) I just nipped the square end into the vice and hung 20
> lb on the
> horizontal handle at the appropriate distances. I found my click stop
> wrench clicked at 187 in lb when set for 200 lb. was about 7% too
> high. I
> have checked the calibration since then every year Usually in the
> spring but
> have found no changes in it.
>
> I have been told that the torque bar type wrenches don't have to be
> calibrated as the bars don't tend to weaken. In fact the calibration
> machines they use to calibrate click type wrenches is actually a
> torque bar
> under the panel. I'd still calibrate it at least once just to make
> myself
> happier. I've also been told that the new digital wrenches, if
> anyone can
> afford them, are guaranteed to retain their calibration for ten
> years. Does
> that mean at 10 yr + 1 day it gets replaced?
>
> Noel
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
LP Aeroplastics sells a dense foam tape, self-adhesive, for that very
purpose. I still say the rivet idea is not the best, because of no
way to control tension, and the bearing area is too small. You've
covered the bearing area with the aluminum strips, but is it a good-
looking installation?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 11:38 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Hey Guys, One thing I am doing that no one else is doing. You all
> have the heads of your screws or rivets bearing on the Lexan. I am
> using a 1/16th" x 3/4" wide strip of aluminum on top of the Lexan
> drilled out for the row of rivets front to back on the ribs and
> cross wise above the spar carry through tubes. I didn't do it, but
> if I was to do it again, I would put some sort of rubber tape on
> the bottom side of the aluminum strip to cushion it slightly. I
> don't know it just looked like a good way to spread the holding
> force of the rivets over a large area of the Lexan to me. I really
> don't like a bolt or rivet head bearing on a piece of plexi, even
> with a fender washer. I did the same thing on the plexi observation
> doors that I made.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Good one, Pat. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
do not archive
On Feb 19, 2009, at 12:02 AM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, Lay off those engineers. The only problem with them is
> someone has to tell them when the project is done and to stop
> engineering or they just go on engineering into infinity. OK I'll
> use steel washers. I'm easy. I'm also dyslextic. I'ts not dyslextic
> being easy you know.
> do not archive
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
>
> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
> > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:04:23 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > Probably a good plan, Pat...maybe even steel washers underneath,
> just
> > to keep a flat surface contact instead of a possible dished one.
> > Important to get a good diametral fit to the rivet, though, with
> > either. Another thing to consider...aluminum mandrels, or steel?
> > Maybe a knowledgeable engineer might offer some help here. : ) An
> > aluminum mandrel might not allow enough squeeze before popping,
> while
> > a steel mandrel might squeeze too much.
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > New skis done and flying
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 18, 2009, at 8:44 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> >
> > > Lynn, Agreed, sheetmetal or wood screws into the wood, I wasn't
> > > considering. I believe someone said thats what they had though. At
> > > this point I am leaning towards aluminum pop rivets with an
> > > aluminum washer on the bottom side.
> > >
> > > Pat Reilly
> > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> > > Rockford, IL
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
> > > > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:30:51 -0500
> > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > > >
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > > >
> > > > That metal reinforcing strip is only good in the area near
> where the
> > > > rivets go through it, and a little distance beyond. So the
> > > rivets, if
> > > > you choose to use them with a large-area...relatively
> > > > speaking...washer, they should serve roughly the same
> purpose. Of
> > > > course, the addition of the metal angles added to the rib/
> capstrip
> > > > junction sounds like a good idea. I can't remember whether I did
> > > this
> > > > or not. If I didn't, it sounds like it is unnecessary, as
> I've been
> > > > tossed about a little bit in mine and no apparent damage done.
> > > >
> > > > I would never use metal screws into the wood...maybe only to get
> > > home
> > > > in an emergency.
> > > >
> > > > Well, being as how the builder's manual that I have calls for
> > > > drilling and cleco'ing the skylight, and doesn't mention
> doing any
> > > > attaching beyond that, I'd say they think the cleco's will
> hold it
> > > > on! Keep in mind that I have the Model IV manual and yours may
> > > > actually tell you how to finish up the job. Kidding aside, it
> all
> > > > depends on a few factors...what is the Vne of your plane, and
> how
> > > > hard will you fly it? How many violent storms or weather will
> you
> > > fly
> > > > in? Will the plane see turbulence? Of course, none of us know
> these
> > > > answers..most of them anyway, so we try to follow the manual or
> > > later
> > > > service bulletins, or call those building the plane now...John
> > > > McBean....and see if any new methods have come into existence.
> > > >
> > > > When I installed my wing tips, I ordered the "removable wing tip
> > > kit"
> > > > consisting of...what else?....Aluminum strips, K1000 anchor
> nuts and
> > > > machine screws to attach the tips after the anchor-nutted strips
> > > were
> > > > flush-riveted in place. More work? You bet, but once done,
> it's done
> > > > right, and they can be removed with one hand, a screwdriver,
> and no
> > > > drill.
> > > >
> > > > Lynn Matteson
> > > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> > > > Sensenich 62x46
> > > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > > > New skis done and flying
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:23 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Man Oh Man. I checked the bottom side of my butt ribs.
> There is no
> > > > > metal reinforcing strip on the bottom! I had to repair one
> wing
> > > > > tip. The last rib on the outside end of the wing had that
> metal
> > > > > reinforcing strip on the bottom of the rib to keep the
> rivets on
> > > > > the wing tip from pulling through. What the hell do I do
> now? Do I
> > > > > remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the
> cabin top?
> > > > > Do I use sheet metal screws in the wood? Or are the rivets
> through
> > > > > the wood just fine. The plane flew for 200 hrs as originally
> > > build,
> > > > > no metal reinforcing strip on the underside. But, I don't know
> > > what
> > > > > type fasteners were used originally, as the windshield was not
> > > > > installed when I got it. I guess I better look at builders
> manual.
> > > > > It seems that there are an awful lot of different methods
> being
> > > > > used by you guys to attach that cabin top.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat Reilly
> > > > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild>==
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ========== _-
> > > =================================== _-
> > > contribution_-
> > > ===============================
> >=================
> >
> >
> >
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
I second that, Lynn. Some things last longer than others and nothing lasts
forever. As you, or someone else said, people often permanently cover the
locking side of the fastener which makes it inaccessible, for example the
butt rib and fuel tank area. I've never felt comfortable with covering that
area and have found no compelling reason for doing so other than aesthetics.
If one is planning on covering that area it would make good sense to use
permanent fasteners, like nut plates with rivets. It takes some extra time,
but the long term benefit and peace of mind is worth it when one needs to
replace or remove the greenhouse for some reason. If the butt rib isn't
going to be covered, then it doesn't matter much what one uses so long as
the fasteners cannot pull through the wood . Well, I think I would avoid 3"
drywall screws! As someone else said, there is probably some lift in that
area. Well, let me tell you, THERE IS LIFT in that area, and I know from
experience. If you don't have those fasteners well secured, the lift can
and probably will eventually lift the windshield right off the butt ribs.
Personally, on my S5 I just used #6 SS truss head screws with nylock nuts,
all of which are easy to access as I didn't cover the butt ribs. No washers
are necessary. There is no magic bullet here as there are several methods
that will work fine. Just use common sense and look at the long term.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
>
> That sounds like a good idea if it holds. After all, once installed, the
> nutplate is under tension until the bolt is unscrewed, then it is
> subjected to rotating forces which put the glued surface under sheer
> forces. If the glue is stronger than the resistive "self-locking" feature
> of the nutplate, the screw will come out and all will be well. If the
> glue now fails...years later, maybe...the plate will have to be held...if
> it can be accessed, and a new one installed.
>
> I still like the idea of the riveted nutplate/anchor nut, with its
> shear-resistive rivets holding it in place.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:
>
>> I don't know if this will help, but there is a nutplate that doesn't
>> require riveting. You drill the hole for the fastener, peel off a
>> protective piece of plastic on the nutplate to expose a glued surface
>> and pull an attached plastic tang until the glued surface makes solid
>> contact with undersurface of the structure. Wait overnight and pull out
>> the plastic tang and the nutplate is ready for use. I think they have
>> fixed and floating versions. It's really slick. It may be a little
>> pricey at a dollar or two per nutplate, but if it works....
>>
>> I believe the name of the company was Click Bond. A friend of mine is
>> building a Lancair 4P and is using them thru out his project.
>>
>> Rick Weiss
>> N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
>> SkyStar S/N 1
>> Port Orange, FL
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
I'm not sure what type of anchor nuts you are referring to, but below are
some that will work fine, sans the gold plating. The ones at .36 each will
work fine as will the K1000 at .51 each.
They also have the countersunk blind rivets, see below.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/avexblindriv.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anchornuts.php
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 6:55 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
> <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> Couple questions for ya Lynn;
>
> Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?
> I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the anchor
> nuts call for. Also I am not experienced with solid rivets and I am not
> going to figure out how on my butt ribs, ya know?
>
> Is there a more reasonable place to buy these anchor nuts then AC Spruce?
> The anchor nuts for the butt ribs alone cost over $100. It takes an
> awful lot of my time before I think it is worth over $100 vs $1 for
> rivets.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230908#230908
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
When my father built his VJ-22 sportsman amphib back in the sixties ( and
early seventies ) it was constructed of aircraft grade mahogany plywood.
The sides and top of the fuselage were actually 1/16" ply held in place with
brass nails and resourcenol glue. The nails were very thin and ribbed like
boat nails but were also coated in a resin powder that melted as the nail
was driven. On the lower hull the much thicker plywood was held in place
with brass screws. The specs called for the holes for the screws to be
drilled then each screw was coated in fresh resorcinol glue before being
driven. He did a couple of tests before actually putting any screws into
the plane. The result is once the glue hardened it was darn near impossible
to remove the screws afterward.
If I had to put a screw into wood that I never wanted to come out I think
I'd use a dab of glue on it.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
That metal reinforcing strip is only good in the area near where the
rivets go through it, and a little distance beyond. So the rivets, if
you choose to use them with a large-area...relatively
speaking...washer, they should serve roughly the same purpose. Of
course, the addition of the metal angles added to the rib/capstrip
junction sounds like a good idea. I can't remember whether I did this
or not. If I didn't, it sounds like it is unnecessary, as I've been
tossed about a little bit in mine and no apparent damage done.
I would never use metal screws into the wood...maybe only to get home
in an emergency.
Well, being as how the builder's manual that I have calls for
drilling and cleco'ing the skylight, and doesn't mention doing any
attaching beyond that, I'd say they think the cleco's will hold it
on! Keep in mind that I have the Model IV manual and yours may
actually tell you how to finish up the job. Kidding aside, it all
depends on a few factors...what is the Vne of your plane, and how
hard will you fly it? How many violent storms or weather will you fly
in? Will the plane see turbulence? Of course, none of us know these
answers..most of them anyway, so we try to follow the manual or later
service bulletins, or call those building the plane now...John
McBean....and see if any new methods have come into existence.
When I installed my wing tips, I ordered the "removable wing tip kit"
consisting of...what else?....Aluminum strips, K1000 anchor nuts and
machine screws to attach the tips after the anchor-nutted strips were
flush-riveted in place. More work? You bet, but once done, it's done
right, and they can be removed with one hand, a screwdriver, and no
drill.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:23 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Man Oh Man. I checked the bottom side of my butt ribs. There is no
> metal reinforcing strip on the bottom! I had to repair one wing
> tip. The last rib on the outside end of the wing had that metal
> reinforcing strip on the bottom of the rib to keep the rivets on
> the wing tip from pulling through. What the hell do I do now? Do I
> remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the cabin top?
> Do I use sheet metal screws in the wood? Or are the rivets through
> the wood just fine. The plane flew for 200 hrs as originally build,
> no metal reinforcing strip on the underside. But, I don't know what
> type fasteners were used originally, as the windshield was not
> installed when I got it. I guess I better look at builders manual.
> It seems that there are an awful lot of different methods being
> used by you guys to attach that cabin top.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Jim:
Math wasn't my big subject either.
10lb. X 12 in. = 120 lb.in.
I calibrated my wrench by putting 20 lb. (Javex bottle with sand in it) at 5
in =100 lb. in. 20 lb. X 5 in. = 100 lb.in.
20 lb @ 6 in. = 120 lb.in.
20 lb.@ 7 in. = 140 lb.in.
20 lb.@ 8 in. = 160 lb.in....
All the way up to
20 lb.@ 13 in. = 260 lb.in.
I think my wrench is only rated up to 300 lb.in. and most of my bolts are
spec. to 200 lb.in..Truth is I ran out of handle and was too lazy to add
weight.
The calibration on my wrench requires I set the wrench at 187 lb.in. for 200
lb.in.. I made out a little card similar to the compass card which I keep
with my wrench.
BTW this method while accurate is not a legal method of calibrating a wrench
in Canada for use in an AMO ( U.S. FBO) I expect the same is true South of
the 49th.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy
Chuk
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:43 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
Hi Lynn, can't you calibrate your bending bar torque wrench by putting the
socket end in a vice with the wrench horizontal, and then hanging a known
weight on the handle 12" out from the center of the socket fitting? If you
hang 10 lbs on, it should read 10 lbs on the pointer if the wrench is
accurate, ect, ect. I know I've done that. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:03:46 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> If you have a "bending bar" style, it's easy to tell...but I
> don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
> type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
> there without clicking over, it's at that maximum or too high. I like
> to use the inch-pound, as it's newer, but I may start to use the
> bending bar ft-lb wrench, and check at 10-13 ft-lbs, but that's at
> the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
> low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated, but how many guys
> do that?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> > <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
> >
> > Lynn,
> > How do you know when it is too high?
> >
> > Jim Crowder
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> >> list-
> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:24 PM
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
> >>
> >>
> >> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
> >> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
> >> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
> >> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
> >> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
> >> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
> >> printed info what =====================
>=====
>
>
>
_____
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together-at home, work, or on the
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Hi Noel=2C I was refering to the last part of Lynn's message where he says
he may start using his ft-lb wrench and torque to 10 -13 ft-lb. I suppose
I should have said hand the 10 lbs 1 foot out on the wrench instead of 12"
as it may seem like I was referring to an inch-lb wrench when I ment a ft-
lb wrench. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn.
From: noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
Jim:
Math wasn=92t my big subject either.
10lb. X 12 in. = 120 lb.in.
I calibrated my wrench by putting 20 lb. (Javex bottle with sand in it) at
5 in =100 lb. in. 20 lb. X 5 in. = 100 lb.in.
20 lb @ 6 in. = 120 lb.in.
20 lb.@ 7 in. = 140 lb.in.
20 lb.@ 8 in. = 160 lb.in....
All the way up to
20 lb.@ 13 in. = 260 lb.in.
I think my wrench is only rated up to 300 lb.in. and most of my bolts are s
pec. to 200 lb.in..Truth is I ran out of handle and was too lazy to add wei
ght.
The calibration on my wrench requires I set the wrench at 187 lb.in. for 20
0 lb.in.. I made out a little card similar to the compass card which I kee
p with my wrench.
BTW this method while accurate is not a legal method of calibrating a wrenc
h in Canada for use in an AMO ( U.S. FBO) I expect the same is true South
of the 49th.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy Chuk
Sent: Wednesday=2C February 18=2C 2009 11:43 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
Hi Lynn=2C can't you calibrate your bending bar torque wrench by putting t
he socket end in a vice with the wrench horizontal=2C and then hanging a kn
own weight on the handle 12" out from the center of the socket fitting? If
you hang 10 lbs on=2C it should read 10 lbs on the pointer if the wrench i
s accurate=2C ect=2C ect. I know I've done that. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
> Date: Wed=2C 18 Feb 2009 20:03:46 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> If you have a "bending bar" style=2C it's easy to tell...but I
> don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
> type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
> there without clicking over=2C it's at that maximum or too high. I like
> to use the inch-pound=2C as it's newer=2C but I may start to use the
> bending bar ft-lb wrench=2C and check at 10-13 ft-lbs=2C but that's at
> the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
> low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated=2C but how many guys
> do that?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger
> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18=2C 2009=2C at 6:59 PM=2C Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> > <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
> >
> > Lynn=2C
> > How do you know when it is too high?
> >
> > Jim Crowder
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> >> list-
> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
> >> Sent: Wednesday=2C February 18=2C 2009 1:24 PM
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
> >>
> >>
> >> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out=2C
> >> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact=2C Sensenich doesn't
> >> recommend it for their wood props=2C if I recall correctly. Metal prop
s
> >> I could see wiring=2C but not wood. In fact=2C I need to inquire of
> >> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
> >> They say not to loosen to check torque=2C but they don't say in their
> >> printed info what =================
====
>=====
>
>
>
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on
the go.arget='_new'>See Now http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-
Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are part
of your life.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Just what kind of a honkin' monster wrench do you think I have? But you are
right! The application of weight to the handle does not take into account
the weight of the handle itself. I just crawled out through the snow drift
Ma Nature put in my driveway yesterday and retrieved my wrench which I have
weighed. The weight on the handle when supported by stud is 5 oz. Or .3125
lb so at 10 inches that would add 3.125lb. in to my calibration. So at 187
lb in indicated (200 previously calculated true) I'm actually getting 203
lb. in. torque this means my wrench is even further out than I thought.
Still within 1.5% accuracy assuming my scales are accurate to that extent.
I have a friend in Gander who has a calibration machine I think I'll give
him a visit.
Thanks
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Corner
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
Noel
Don't like your advice here as it does not take into consideration
the weight of
the wrench handle. This weight could account for your original 7%
error which
means you have been applying too much torque on all your fastenings.
You need to mount your wrench in the vice so the square end faces down,
then use a string and pulley arrangement with the known weight to
calibrate.
Jim
On 18-Feb-09, at 7:43 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
I did it using a known weight hung on the handle at a specific
distance ( 5
- 10 in. ) I just nipped the square end into the vice and hung 20 lb
on the
horizontal handle at the appropriate distances. I found my click stop
wrench clicked at 187 in lb when set for 200 lb. was about 7% too
high. I
have checked the calibration since then every year Usually in the
spring but
have found no changes in it.
I have been told that the torque bar type wrenches don't have to be
calibrated as the bars don't tend to weaken. In fact the calibration
machines they use to calibrate click type wrenches is actually a
torque bar
under the panel. I'd still calibrate it at least once just to make
myself
happier. I've also been told that the new digital wrenches, if
anyone can
afford them, are guaranteed to retain their calibration for ten
years. Does
that mean at 10 yr + 1 day it gets replaced?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
If you have a "bending bar" style, it's easy to tell...but I
don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
there without clicking over, it's at that maximum or too high. I like
to use the inch-pound, as it's newer, but I may start to use the
bending bar ft-lb wrench, and check at 10-13 ft-lbs, but that's at
the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated, but how many guys
do that?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
>
> Lynn,
> How do you know when it is too high?
>
> Jim Crowder
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
>> list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:24 PM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>>
>>
>> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
>> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
>> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
>> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
>> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
>> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
>> printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Noel
You completely missed my point. You did not take the weight of the
wrench into consideration by simply adding weights to the handle.
Suppose the wrench weighs 2 lb. and is 14 in. long. If you support
that wrench at one end you have an effective torque approximately
equal to 2 lb. acting over 7 inches which is 14 lb. in. You can see
that this is approximately what you call your calibration error.
I suggested that you were over-torquing as I thought you had re-
calibrated the wrench instead of using a correction card.
Using that method, you are under torquing rather than over
Jim
On 19-Feb-09, at 8:08 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
Jim:
Math wasn=92t my big subject either.
10lb. X 12 in. = 120 lb.in.
I calibrated my wrench by putting 20 lb. (Javex bottle with sand in
it) at 5 in =100 lb. in. 20 lb. X 5 in. = 100 lb.in.
20 lb @ 6 in. = 120 lb.in.
20 lb.@ 7 in. = 140 lb.in.
20 lb.@ 8 in. = 160 lb.in....
All the way up to
20 lb.@ 13 in. = 260 lb.in.
I think my wrench is only rated up to 300 lb.in. and most of my bolts
are spec. to 200 lb.in..Truth is I ran out of handle and was too lazy
to add weight.
The calibration on my wrench requires I set the wrench at 187 lb.in.
for 200 lb.in.. I made out a little card similar to the compass card
which I keep with my wrench.
BTW this method while accurate is not a legal method of calibrating a
wrench in Canada for use in an AMO ( U.S. FBO) I expect the same is
true South of the 49th.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy Chuk
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:43 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
Hi Lynn, can't you calibrate your bending bar torque wrench by
putting the socket end in a vice with the wrench horizontal, and then
hanging a known weight on the handle 12" out from the center of the
socket fitting? If you hang 10 lbs on, it should read 10 lbs on the
pointer if the wrench is accurate, ect, ect. I know I've done that.
Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:03:46 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> If you have a "bending bar" style, it's easy to tell...but I
> don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
> type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
> there without clicking over, it's at that maximum or too high. I like
> to use the inch-pound, as it's newer, but I may start to use the
> bending bar ft-lb wrench, and check at 10-13 ft-lbs, but that's at
> the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
> low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated, but how many guys
> do that?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> > <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
> >
> > Lynn,
> > How do you know when it is too high?
> >
> > Jim Crowder
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> >> list-
> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:24 PM
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
> >>
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >>
> >> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
> >> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
> >> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal
props
> >> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
> >> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too
high.
> >> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in
their
> >> printed info what =================
====
>=====
>
>
>
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or on
the go.arget='_new'>See Now
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
The only problem there...the two links you mentioned...is that the
K1000 anchor nuts, and any anchor nuts that I've seen, require 3/32"
rivets to attach, and the other link, to Avex, don't supply 3/32"
flathead rivets...at least through Spruce...perhaps special order
though. And I wouldn't suggest trying to drill the 3/32" anchor nuts
out to 1/8" just for the convenience of not chasing down the
3/32"...they are harder than hell on drills...ask me. However, you
could use a 3/32" bolt...that'd be a #3 machine screw which mikes out
at .092" by actual measure, or a #4 which is .102" by actual measure.
The hole in one of my anchor nuts is .097" by measure, which means
that the #4 would not go, but could be drilled...maybe. There is a
place called MicroFasteners...not sure of spelling...that might have
the #3 screws, but they've (the #3's) been missing from most charts
that I've seen for quite a while. The ones I have are round head, and
were used on model airplanes. If you could still find them, round
head #3's would work, because the head would disappear into the foam
strip that you are going to apply over the butt rib capstrip, right?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 19, 2009, at 7:33 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> I'm not sure what type of anchor nuts you are referring to, but
> below are some that will work fine, sans the gold plating. The
> ones at .36 each will work fine as will the K1000 at .51 each.
>
> They also have the countersunk blind rivets, see below.
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/avexblindriv.php
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anchornuts.php
>
> Deke Morisse
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
Jim:
Like I said math wasn't my forte. Apparently it still isn't. I should
have noticed that. I guess the reason I didn't is generally on small planes
the props are usually torque in lb.in.. not lb.ft..
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy
Chuk
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:59 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
Hi Noel, I was refering to the last part of Lynn's message where he says he
may start using his ft-lb wrench and torque to 10 -13 ft-lb. I suppose I
should have said hand the 10 lbs 1 foot out on the wrench instead of 12" as
it may seem like I was referring to an inch-lb wrench when I ment a ft-lb
wrench. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn.
_____
From: noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
Jim:
Math wasn't my big subject either.
10lb. X 12 in. = 120 lb.in.
I calibrated my wrench by putting 20 lb. (Javex bottle with sand in it) at 5
in =100 lb. in. 20 lb. X 5 in. = 100 lb.in.
20 lb @ 6 in. = 120 lb.in.
20 lb.@ 7 in. = 140 lb.in.
20 lb.@ 8 in. = 160 lb.in....
All the way up to
20 lb.@ 13 in. = 260 lb.in.
I think my wrench is only rated up to 300 lb.in. and most of my bolts are
spec. to 200 lb.in..Truth is I ran out of handle and was too lazy to add
weight.
The calibration on my wrench requires I set the wrench at 187 lb.in. for 200
lb.in.. I made out a little card similar to the compass card which I keep
with my wrench.
BTW this method while accurate is not a legal method of calibrating a wrench
in Canada for use in an AMO ( U.S. FBO) I expect the same is true South of
the 49th.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy
Chuk
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:43 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
Hi Lynn, can't you calibrate your bending bar torque wrench by putting the
socket end in a vice with the wrench horizontal, and then hanging a known
weight on the handle 12" out from the center of the socket fitting? If you
hang 10 lbs on, it should read 10 lbs on the pointer if the wrench is
accurate, ect, ect. I know I've done that. Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:03:46 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> If you have a "bending bar" style, it's easy to tell...but I
> don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
> type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
> there without clicking over, it's at that maximum or too high. I like
> to use the inch-pound, as it's newer, but I may start to use the
> bending bar ft-lb wrench, and check at 10-13 ft-lbs, but that's at
> the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
> low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated, but how many guys
> do that?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> > <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
> >
> > Lynn,
> > How do you know when it is too high?
> >
> > Jim Crowder
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> >> list-
> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:24 PM
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
> >>
> >>
> >> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
> >> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
> >> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
> >> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
> >> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
> >> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
> >> printed info what =====================
>=====
>
>
>
_____
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together-at home, work, or on the
go.arget='_new'>See Now
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
_____
See how Windows connects the people,
informa/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/' target='_new'>See Now
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
All good advice Lynn, but I don't know why there is a resistance out there
to normal solid soft aluminum rivets (the A type). They're very cheap, easy
to install, and extremely strong--way stronger than anything necessary for
the use that this thread is referring to. There is no need to buy an
expensive squeezer or any special tools. It's very simple. Just drill your
screw holes in the cap strip every 3 inches or so, then using a cleco, hold
the anchor nut in place on the top side of the rib cap. When you're
satisfied with it's placement, simply drill the rivet holes using a 3/32 bit
using the anchor nut as a pattern. Reverse the anchor nut to the underside
of the cap strip and rivet it in place. All that is needed for those tiny
rivets is a small ball peen hammer and some sort of small bucking bar on the
bottom side of the rivet. A few taps with the hammer and it's done. It
helps to use the corresponding attaching screw or a cleco to hold the anchor
nut in place while riveting. Very easy and once you get through a couple of
them the process goes very quickly. It's permanent, won't come apart, and
now if you want, can cover the butt rib area without having to worry about
access. I'd recommend #6 anchor nuts and screws. No need for anything
larger than that. Also, buy a rivet cutter (cheap) then order your rivets
at least 3/8-1/2" long and just trim them to size for the job you need. If
you screw one up in the process, those soft rivets drill out easily.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
>
> The only problem there...the two links you mentioned...is that the K1000
> anchor nuts, and any anchor nuts that I've seen, require 3/32" rivets to
> attach, and the other link, to Avex, don't supply 3/32" flathead
> rivets...at least through Spruce...perhaps special order though. And I
> wouldn't suggest trying to drill the 3/32" anchor nuts out to 1/8" just
> for the convenience of not chasing down the 3/32"...they are harder than
> hell on drills...ask me. However, you could use a 3/32" bolt...that'd be
> a #3 machine screw which mikes out at .092" by actual measure, or a #4
> which is .102" by actual measure. The hole in one of my anchor nuts is
> .097" by measure, which means that the #4 would not go, but could be
> drilled...maybe. There is a place called MicroFasteners...not sure of
> spelling...that might have the #3 screws, but they've (the #3's) been
> missing from most charts that I've seen for quite a while. The ones I
> have are round head, and were used on model airplanes. If you could still
> find them, round head #3's would work, because the head would disappear
> into the foam strip that you are going to apply over the butt rib
> capstrip, right?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 7:33 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm not sure what type of anchor nuts you are referring to, but below
>> are some that will work fine, sans the gold plating. The ones at .36
>> each will work fine as will the K1000 at .51 each.
>>
>> They also have the countersunk blind rivets, see below.
>>
>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/avexblindriv.php
>>
>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anchornuts.php
>>
>> Deke Morisse
>
>
>
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
To adjust for the weight of the handle, one would need to treat the weight
as a distributed load along the whole of the arm. The average arm would be
one half of the total length. As I haven't followed your calculations, you
may already have done this and I then apologize for the clutter of my
comment.
Jim Crowder
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:28 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: New issue, turtle deck security
>
>
> The only problem there...the two links you mentioned...is that the
> K1000 anchor nuts, and any anchor nuts that I've seen, require 3/32"
> rivets to attach, and the other link, to Avex, don't supply 3/32"
> flathead rivets...at least through Spruce...perhaps special order
> though. And I wouldn't suggest trying to drill the 3/32" anchor nuts
> out to 1/8" just for the convenience of not chasing down the
> 3/32"...they are harder than hell on drills...ask me. However, you
> could use a 3/32" bolt...that'd be a #3 machine screw which mikes out
> at .092" by actual measure, or a #4 which is .102" by actual measure.
> The hole in one of my anchor nuts is .097" by measure, which means
> that the #4 would not go, but could be drilled...maybe. There is a
> place called MicroFasteners...not sure of spelling...that might have
> the #3 screws, but they've (the #3's) been missing from most charts
> that I've seen for quite a while. The ones I have are round head, and
> were used on model airplanes. If you could still find them, round
> head #3's would work, because the head would disappear into the foam
> strip that you are going to apply over the butt rib capstrip, right?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2009, at 7:33 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
>
> > <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
> >
> > I'm not sure what type of anchor nuts you are referring to, but
> > below are some that will work fine, sans the gold plating. The
> > ones at .36 each will work fine as will the K1000 at .51 each.
> >
> > They also have the countersunk blind rivets, see below.
> >
> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/avexblindriv.php
> >
> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anchornuts.php
> >
> > Deke Morisse
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
This thread reminds me of the wiring discussions when I was on the Lancair
list. The recommendation there - from an aerospace electrical engineer was
one of the $500 wire strippers that used heat rather than a blade to cut the
insulation. Anything short of that would render all wiring projects doomed
to failure.
I wonder if the prop really knows, or cares for that matter if the torque
wrench is calibrated. Torque wrenches are good, but probably mostly to make
sure the bolts are not torqued too tight which is a major tendency and was
definitely the tendency of the Lancair owner and my boss during that
project. I watched him twist off the head of a 3/8" lag screw when he was
building the wooden fixtures to support the fuselage. I wondered what he
would do to a 3/16" AN bolt. Until I took over my torque wrenches, to him
tight meant red face and bulging muscles regardless of bolt size.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Corner" <jcorner@shaw.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>
> Noel
>
> Don't like your advice here as it does not take into consideration the
> weight of
> the wrench handle. This weight could account for your original 7% error
> which
> means you have been applying too much torque on all your fastenings.
> You need to mount your wrench in the vice so the square end faces down,
> then use a string and pulley arrangement with the known weight to
> calibrate.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On 18-Feb-09, at 7:43 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>
> I did it using a known weight hung on the handle at a specific distance
> ( 5
> - 10 in. ) I just nipped the square end into the vice and hung 20 lb on
> the
> horizontal handle at the appropriate distances. I found my click stop
> wrench clicked at 187 in lb when set for 200 lb. was about 7% too high.
> I
> have checked the calibration since then every year Usually in the spring
> but
> have found no changes in it.
>
> I have been told that the torque bar type wrenches don't have to be
> calibrated as the bars don't tend to weaken. In fact the calibration
> machines they use to calibrate click type wrenches is actually a torque
> bar
> under the panel. I'd still calibrate it at least once just to make
> myself
> happier. I've also been told that the new digital wrenches, if anyone
> can
> afford them, are guaranteed to retain their calibration for ten years.
> Does
> that mean at 10 yr + 1 day it gets replaced?
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:34 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>
>
> If you have a "bending bar" style, it's easy to tell...but I
> don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
> type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
> there without clicking over, it's at that maximum or too high. I like
> to use the inch-pound, as it's newer, but I may start to use the
> bending bar ft-lb wrench, and check at 10-13 ft-lbs, but that's at
> the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
> low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated, but how many guys
> do that?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
>> <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
>>
>> Lynn,
>> How do you know when it is too high?
>>
>> Jim Crowder
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
>>> list-
>>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:24 PM
>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>>>
>>>
>>> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
>>> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
>>> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
>>> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
>>> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
>>> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
>>> printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Okay, here is a few things I am hearing; solid rivets are easy to use, you do not
need anchor nuts with nylon lock inserts, you do not need a screw every 2"
as with the rivets. Is this all accurate for what everyone here is saying. My
biggest issue is the solid rivets, from what I have read on other sites it takes
a little getting used to to do them right. I can not however find any good
illustrated 1. 2. 3. steps and I can not find a place locally that could
show me how. The local EAA closed and I can not find one within an hour of here.
So if I just go get a bucking bar, ball peen hammer, and some solid rivets,
how many tests am I gonna do in scrap aluminum and wood before I will want
to go to the butt rib?
(Yes I am mechanically inclined and this will not be like a monkey learning to
do needle point.)
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231122#231122
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
>The local EAA closed and I can not find one within an hour of here. So if
>I just go get a bucking bar, ball peen hammer, and some solid rivets, how
>many tests am I gonna do in scrap aluminum and wood before I will want to
>go to the butt rib?
> (Yes I am mechanically inclined and this will not be like a monkey
> learning to do needle point.)
>
> --------
> James
Ummm. . . . 6?
:-)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> The only problem there...the two links you mentioned...is that the K1000
> anchor nuts, and any anchor nuts that I've seen, require 3/32" rivets to
> attach, and the other link, to Avex, don't supply 3/32" flathead
> rivets...at least through Spruce...perhaps special order though. And I
> wouldn't suggest trying to drill the 3/32" anchor nuts out to 1/8" just
> for the convenience of not chasing down the 3/32"...they are harder than
> hell on drills...ask me. However, you could use a 3/32" bolt...that'd be
> a #3 machine screw which mikes out at .092" by actual measure, or a #4
> which is .102" by actual measure. The hole in one of my anchor nuts is
> .097" by measure, which means that the #4 would not go, but could be
> drilled...maybe. There is a place called MicroFasteners...not sure of
> spelling...that might have the #3 screws, but they've (the #3's) been
> missing from most charts that I've seen for quite a while. The ones I
> have are round head, and were used on model airplanes. If you could
> still find them, round head #3's would work, because the head would
> disappear into the foam strip that you are going to apply over the butt
> rib capstrip, right?
I have a suggestion. Last year at Oshkosh, I happened by the Click Bond
booth and saw that they have bonded nutplates. There stuff is a little
pricey, but it sure is neat. No rivets, no screws just click and go.
Check out this installation sequence drawing:
http://www.clickbond.com/files/Documents/cb9948_techguide.pdf
We actually did some of these while I was there.
Regards,
Dennis M IV Speedster (someday)
--
Dennis Golden
Golden Consulting Services, Inc.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: New issue, turtle deck security |
> I can not however find any good illustrated 1. 2. 3. steps and I can not find
a place locally that could show me how. The local EAA closed and I can not find
one within an hour of here. So if I just go get a bucking bar, ball peen hammer,
and some solid rivets, how many tests am I gonna do in scrap aluminum and
wood before I will want to go to the butt rib?
> (Yes I am mechanically inclined and this will not be like a monkey learning to
do needle point.)
I squeezed all the solid rivets in my kit with a pair of vise grips. It took about
two test rivets to get the correct setting on the vise grips tension screw.
Start with loose tension, squeeze, tighten a quarter turn, squeeze, tighten
a quarter turn, squeeze...until it looks good.
The pattern on the vise grip jaws transfers to the rivet. If you don't want it
to look like that you can file the jaws of a cheep pair smooth. Get a few solid
rivets and give it a try. Its easy.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231130#231130
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Seasonal change reminder |
To an extent I can see all the points of view. Even the best blade cutters
can, if you get sloppy, nick strands. The heat strippers cannot. This
doesn't mean that it's the only tool for the job.
I suspect when it comes to applications like props the torque is more
critical as the bolts must be tight enough to stop any possible slipping
without stressing the bolt. I've worked with guys who could while using
their own box end wrenches come as close as Dimmit is to D###it to
conventional torque values. However being one of those ham fisted Esso bees
who can strip a nut faster than you can say Jack Robinson I much prefer to
use my torque wrench and let it click once.
Some props are no doubt more susceptible to damage from bad torque than
others. Wood and composite can have the fibres or the prop crushed by over
torque and be destroyed by the over tightening. Both GSC and IVO give
specific torques for the installation of their props. Being one who has
seen a composite prop destroyed by over torquing years ago I like to have
the torque as close to spec as possible. With those props too tight and the
prop is toast, too loose and it slips around until it's toast. The
manufacturers know where the sweet spot is and that's what they spec.
Getting back to Lynn's Sensenich prop. I expect the test that Sensenich
wants done is a periodic test to make sure the minimum original torque is
still there. Therefore he only needs to set his wrench to the original
torque value and let it click once. If because of expansion of the wood
fibres the torque is a little high that would do less damage than loosening
and retorquing.
Sorry guys I must be old school or something... but I think this is a place
where lockwiring or safetying should be used. There are all kinds of power
pulses and vibrations at that location and having a bolt loosening there has
catastrophic possibilities. It isn't a great task to leant to lockwire well
and cutting the wire to test the torque isn't a big deal either. But as
I've said before I do as I'm told (by the prop manufacturers) but I really
don't like it. Lock wire not only stops bolts form backing out but it looks
good and reminds you of some of the things that can go wrong.
This is why I find comments like you own and Jims constructive not
destructive and welcome them.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
This thread reminds me of the wiring discussions when I was on the Lancair
list. The recommendation there - from an aerospace electrical engineer was
one of the $500 wire strippers that used heat rather than a blade to cut the
insulation. Anything short of that would render all wiring projects doomed
to failure.
I wonder if the prop really knows, or cares for that matter if the torque
wrench is calibrated. Torque wrenches are good, but probably mostly to make
sure the bolts are not torqued too tight which is a major tendency and was
definitely the tendency of the Lancair owner and my boss during that
project. I watched him twist off the head of a 3/8" lag screw when he was
building the wooden fixtures to support the fuselage. I wondered what he
would do to a 3/16" AN bolt. Until I took over my torque wrenches, to him
tight meant red face and bulging muscles regardless of bolt size.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Corner" <jcorner@shaw.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>
> Noel
>
> Don't like your advice here as it does not take into consideration the
> weight of
> the wrench handle. This weight could account for your original 7% error
> which
> means you have been applying too much torque on all your fastenings.
> You need to mount your wrench in the vice so the square end faces down,
> then use a string and pulley arrangement with the known weight to
> calibrate.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On 18-Feb-09, at 7:43 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>
> I did it using a known weight hung on the handle at a specific distance
> ( 5
> - 10 in. ) I just nipped the square end into the vice and hung 20 lb on
> the
> horizontal handle at the appropriate distances. I found my click stop
> wrench clicked at 187 in lb when set for 200 lb. was about 7% too high.
> I
> have checked the calibration since then every year Usually in the spring
> but
> have found no changes in it.
>
> I have been told that the torque bar type wrenches don't have to be
> calibrated as the bars don't tend to weaken. In fact the calibration
> machines they use to calibrate click type wrenches is actually a torque
> bar
> under the panel. I'd still calibrate it at least once just to make
> myself
> happier. I've also been told that the new digital wrenches, if anyone
> can
> afford them, are guaranteed to retain their calibration for ten years.
> Does
> that mean at 10 yr + 1 day it gets replaced?
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:34 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>
>
> If you have a "bending bar" style, it's easy to tell...but I
> don't...not in the inch-pound size anyway. If you have the "click
> type" it's only possible to set it at the maximum and if it goes
> there without clicking over, it's at that maximum or too high. I like
> to use the inch-pound, as it's newer, but I may start to use the
> bending bar ft-lb wrench, and check at 10-13 ft-lbs, but that's at
> the low end of the scale and I can't be sure of its accuracy at that
> low a setting. I should probably get it calibrated, but how many guys
> do that?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
>> <jcrowder@lpbroadband.net>
>>
>> Lynn,
>> How do you know when it is too high?
>>
>> Jim Crowder
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
>>> list-
>>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:24 PM
>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Seasonal change reminder
>>>
>>>
>>> At the rate that I'll be doing torque checks from here on out,
>>> there's no way that I'd use lockwire. In fact, Sensenich doesn't
>>> recommend it for their wood props, if I recall correctly. Metal props
>>> I could see wiring, but not wood. In fact, I need to inquire of
>>> Sensenich whether or not to back off the torque if it gets too high.
>>> They say not to loosen to check torque, but they don't say in their
>>> printed info what to do if the torque checks out too high.
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Looks good to me. When I am all done I'll send some pictures.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
> From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
> Date: Thu=2C 19 Feb 2009 06:27:37 -0500
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> LP Aeroplastics sells a dense foam tape=2C self-adhesive=2C for that very
> purpose. I still say the rivet idea is not the best=2C because of no
> way to control tension=2C and the bearing area is too small. You've
> covered the bearing area with the aluminum strips=2C but is it a good-
> looking installation?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger
> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 605 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> New skis done and flying
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18=2C 2009=2C at 11:38 PM=2C patrick reilly wrote:
>
> > Hey Guys=2C One thing I am doing that no one else is doing. You all
> > have the heads of your screws or rivets bearing on the Lexan. I am
> > using a 1/16th" x 3/4" wide strip of aluminum on top of the Lexan
> > drilled out for the row of rivets front to back on the ribs and
> > cross wise above the spar carry through tubes. I didn't do it=2C but
> > if I was to do it again=2C I would put some sort of rubber tape on
> > the bottom side of the aluminum strip to cushion it slightly. I
> > don't know it just looked like a good way to spread the holding
> > force of the rivets over a large area of the Lexan to me. I really
> > don't like a bolt or rivet head bearing on a piece of plexi=2C even
> > with a fender washer. I did the same thing on the plexi observation
> > doors that I made.
> >
> > Pat Reilly
> > Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> > Rockford=2C IL
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Greenhouse construction |
Guy=2C There is fabric both sides of the butt rib. However the original bui
lder put portholes in the fabric similar to inspection holes. You can see i
n.But=2C Not enough access to work in there. I will have to do a little sur
gical work on the fabric.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
> Date: Wed=2C 18 Feb 2009 21:45:28 -0800
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> From: bnn@nethere.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Greenhouse construction
>
>
> At 04:23 PM 2/18/2009=2C you wrote:
> >Do I remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the cabin top?
>
> Pat=2C
> I'm a little confused. How did you confirm there was no
> metal backing if you can't get to the underside without removing
> fabric? I'm definitely not understanding your configuration.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego=2C CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done=2C thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
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