---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/09/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:48 AM - Re: New airplane (Lynn Matteson) 2. 06:49 AM - Rotax 912 UL for Sale (george.mueller@aurora.org) 3. 07:20 AM - Re: New airplane (patrick reilly) 4. 09:44 AM - Re: Re:gear weight (paul wilson) 5. 11:04 AM - Re: New airplane (815TL) 6. 11:08 AM - I tell my kids, don't do that! (Pete Christensen) 7. 01:17 PM - Re: New airplane (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) 8. 02:08 PM - Re: New airplane (Larry Huntley) 9. 03:33 PM - Re: Rectifier to battery connection question. (Noel Loveys) 10. 03:41 PM - Kitfox in Ft. Lauderdale (Neil France) 11. 03:42 PM - KFM engine (KFMFOX) 12. 07:08 PM - Re: New airplane (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk) 13. 08:06 PM - Re: KFM engine (patrick reilly) 14. 09:49 PM - Re: I tell my kids, don't do that! (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:00 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: New airplane Way to go, Jim....geez, what fun you must've had, and on snow too! Spring has already come to the deep South (Lower Michigan), but I hope your Winter lasts and lasts. Have fun.... Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 610 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying do not archive On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:37 PM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote: > Hi all, Well I've been kind of quiet latley, I messed up my Avid > MK IV 2 1/2 months ago, and ended up getting another Avid B (while > I fix the MK IV), that had been sitting for a number of years. It > was in real nice shape though and after putting in new seals in the > 532 that it has, checking it over real good, and getting everything > in order, it was ready to go today. Weather cooperated and I was > able to get 2- 20 minute flights in from my strip late this > afternoon. Sure was nice to get back in the air. The plane only > weighs 443 empty so it climbed like a homesick angle. Well I'm > still grinning. Now I hope spring is late in comming so I can keep > flying on the skis. Take care, Jim Chuk MN Avid B flying, Avid > MK IV and Kitfox 4 in the shop ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:59 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 912 UL for Sale From: george.mueller@aurora.org In case anyone has a need, I have a Rotax 912 UL with 60 hours TTSN along with a Woodcomp Klassic 68" three blade prop 30 hours TTSN for sale on Barnstormers for $14,900. The engine is currently being gone over by an authorized Rotax dealer to make sure it is perfect. Email or 414-647-3134 if you are interested. I am selling because I need to upgrade to a 912S because I am putting floats on my airplane. George in Milwaukee Zenith 701 60 Hours Flying ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:34 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: New airplane Jim=2C Beautiful airplane! Where in MN do you live? And=2C how do you just happen to find another plane that was sitting for a few years that only req uires a couple of hours to get airworthy? In addition=2C what damage does =2C "messed up" consist of? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL From: thesupe@hotmail.com Subject: Kitfox-List: New airplane Hi all=2C Well I've been kind of quiet latley=2C I messed up my Avid MK IV 2 1/2 months ago=2C and ended up getting another Avid B (while I fix the M K IV)=2C that had been sitting for a number of years. It was in real nice shape though and after putting in new seals in the 532 that it has=2C check ing it over real good=2C and getting everything in order=2C it was ready to go today. Weather cooperated and I was able to get 2- 20 minute flights i n from my strip late this afternoon. Sure was nice to get back in the air. The plane only weighs 443 empty so it climbed like a homesick angle. Wel l I'm still grinning. Now I hope spring is late in comming so I can keep f lying on the skis. Take care=2C Jim Chuk MN Avid B flying=2C Avid MK I V and Kitfox 4 in the shop Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail=AE . See how. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:12 AM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re:gear weight Lots of discussion when the 2 alloys were used. pros & cons fro each - most prominent in my mind : (1) the 2xxx alloy used for the early Grove will bend sooner than the 7075 just due to strength assuming the dimensional data is the same. Thus there will more energy absorbed by the 20xx alloy compared to the stronger alloy. However the different gear lengths change any ability to compare the various gears. (2) The 7075-76 is subject to fracture toughness weakness. That means a small rock chip could lead to complete failure. This can be mitigated by using a coating for the gear - paint or fabric, etc. for the leading edge. Both alloy choices are made in the annealed condition then heat treated. It is my understanding that Hammerhead used to be the engineer at Grove when the KF was designed. Anyway being an engineer I chose the 7075-T6 alloy. I am please that Grove went to that alloy. Paul ========================= At 04:17 PM 3/8/2009, Lowell wrote: > >This is interesting to me - the alloy change. I wonder if it is a >good thing. I bought the Hammerhead gear and installed it on my >Model IV. My understanding is that Hammerhead used 7075 T6 and >Grove used a different alloy - I can only guess, so won't. This was >from a conversation with Hammerhead in 2001 or 2 based on fotos of >my airplane and the gear change. I see that Grove now uses the >7075-T6, based on their current web site. > >The occasional reports of Grove gear bending on hard landings, was a >bit of comfort to me then and more so after suffering a very hard >landing. The Hammerhead gear surviving virtually intact ready to >fly again. It was one of the first things sold by the salvage folks >and looked brand new. > >I would like to think that the landing gear would be designed to >absorb some of the energy of impact and at least deform a little >bit. My airplane essentially broke at the landing gear with >everything panel forward falling forward, separated from every thing >aft except through the lower longerons and door frame. Three >compression fractures proved to me that my back took a lot of the >brunt of the crash. > >7075-T6 is tough stuff and does not bend well. I tried to use it on >the Tiedown straps we made for the Rans series airplanes, and I >finally had to get the T0 version and heat treat it after >forming. I can see that repeatedly rebending landing gear at no >charge might ultimately cut into the bottom line, but .... > >Just some opinions based on some limited experience. > >Lowell >----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" >To: >Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 6:48 AM >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re:gear weight > > >> >> >>Deke, >>Maybe I live a sheltered life, but all the ktifox Grove gear I have ever >>seen is one piece. (??) My first one came from Skystar and then I bent it >>and got another from Grove. (Yeah, it is possible to bend it, but I had to >>work at it!) They have changed alloy so they are making changes all the >>time. I think also part of the uncertainty comes from different gear for >>the IV or the 5/6/7. >> >>Randy >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer >>Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 8:03 AM >>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re:gear weight >> >> >>Lynn, I've learned in the experimental world to not put too much stock in >>what is advertised by vendors. Also, I've often wondered about my gear >>whether it is actually a Grove gear. The weight doesn't match what they >>advertise, it's taller than what I've seen on other Kitfoxes, it's a >>slightly different shape, and it's a single piece. It came with the package >> >>straight from Skystar. Does anybody know if Skystar sold an aluminum gear >>that was NOT made by Grove? Inquiring minds would like to know. >>Deke Morisse >>Mikado Michigan >>S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT >>"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." >>- Joseph Joubert >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" >>To: >>Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 2:26 PM >>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re:gear weight >> >> >>> >>>Deke- >>>I got curious about the weight of my Grove gear...model IV 'fox....and >>>went to their site....24.3 lbs for the 3 and 4, 34.3 lbs for the 5,6, and >> >>>7. Calc out the old tube gear and the weight gain is minimal on the 3 and >> >>>4. Can't say about the 5,6, and 7, because I don't have the old stuff to >>>heft/weigh. When I was building mine, and learning to fly at the same >>>time, I saw (in Grove) a wider gear and stronger, and didn't give it a >>>second thought, because I knew eventually I'd make a bad landing....and >>>that didn't take long! : ) >>>Given Dick's post of 16 lbs for the old tubes, I gained 8.3 lbs for the >>>added insurance of a wider, stronger gear, and I'll pay that weight >>>penalty any day. >>> >>>Lynn Matteson >>>Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger >>>Jabiru 2200, #2062, 610 hrs >>>Sensenich 62x46 >>>Electroair direct-fire ignition system >>>Status: flying >>>do not archive >>> >>> >>> >>>On Mar 7, 2009, at 12:11 PM, fox5flyer wrote: >>> >>>>Thanks. I think there was more than one type of gear sold by Grove for >>>>the Kitfox and I'm finding out that the S5 gear was much different than >>>>the IV. Mine is one continuous gear that is about a 1.25" thick on the >>>>cross piece under the belly and it's also significantly taller than the >>>>IV gear. Not two pieces. Also, I have all Cleveland wheel hardware. >>>>After having looked at a IV gear recently, mine is noticeably heavier >>>>looking and also by the scales. Gross weight of the 5 is 1550lbs which, >> >>>>I assume, requires a larger and heavier gear. It came with the airplane >> >>>>package so I was stuck with it. If I'd had any idea before the purchase >> >>>>how heavy it was I'd have gone with the tube gear. One thing I can >>>>attest to though is that it will definitely soak up some bad landings so >> >>>>I'm not in any rush to change it just to save a few lbs. >>>>Lowell's gear looks to be the perfect setup for the rough ground that >>>>mine is subjected to about 90 percent of the time. I don't recall >>>>anyone saying what Lowells' gear weighs, all-up complete with fairings. >>>>Anybody know? Lowell? >>>>Deke >>>> >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: Catz631@aol.com >>>>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>>>Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:14 AM >>>>Subject: Kitfox-List: Re:gear weight >>>> >>>>Deke, >>>> It just so happens that I weighed my original gear yesterday as I am >>>>getting ready to sell it on EBAY and need to find out what the shipping >>>>will be to put in my auction. >>>> The gear legs weighed 16 lbs for the pair and the "Kingfox >>>>"tires,wheels,Matco brakes and axles weighed roughly 18 lbs each (not >>>>selling those). So we have a total of 52 lbs plus maybe 1/2 lb of bolts >>>>for the standard gear. That will give you a ball park figure for your >>>>curiosity. >>>> Dick Maddux >>>> Fox 4 >>>> Pensacola,Fl >>>> >>>>Need a job? Find employment help in your area. >>>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http:// >>>>www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// >>>>forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/ >>>> >>> contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c_- >>>>============================================================ _- >>>>============================================================ _- >>>>============================================================ _- >>>>contribution_- >>>>=========================================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:01 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: New airplane From: "815TL" Only 443lbs. empty? Wow and I thought my KF II was light at 482lbs. empty. That thing must realy climb. Extreemly nice looking plane, I love the yellow. I wish mine were yellow, instead I am stuck with the 'Internaltional Red". Oh well. Happy flying, nice looking bird you have there. Andrew 815TL, Kitfiox II, Rotax 582-C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233902#233902 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:42 AM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Kitfox-List: I tell my kids, don't do that! I had a learning experience on the way to the Cactus Fly-In in Casa Grande, Az. from Hell Paso, Tx. I thought I would pass on what I learned. After flying a 3.5 hour leg with headwinds varying from 10 to 20 mph, my bladder was suggesting a short pit stop. I landed at San Manuel, Az. and as I touched down I had to use just about all the left rudder I had. It took some time before I realized I had a flat tire on the right side. I was able to get off the runway and to a tie down. It seems that the valve stem was cracked and apparently because I keep never-leak in my tires because of frequent thorns that the tiny crack was never seen. Maybe vibration from my last takeoff grew the crack until it leaked all the air out. If I had had a crosswind from the right I would have been in a world of hurt. Lesson learned! Check valve stems. Pete Kitfox III 912 Grove ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: New airplane From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Sun, March 8, 2009 7:37 pm, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote: > > Hi all, Well I've been kind of quiet latley, I messed up my Avid MK IV 2 1/2 months > ago, and ended up getting another Avid B (while I fix the MK IV), that had been > sitting for a number of years... It sure looks nice. When was it built? I don't suppose you know the name of the yellow color on it, do you? It's real sharp. I've seen a few yellow paint jobs that weren't quite right by my taste and when I've seen one I liked, I've asked what it was and gotten only obvious answers - Cub Yellow, Caterpillar Yellow and "it's a long story". I'm about half decided on either yellow or a tan. Since you didn't paint it, you might not know. You wouldn't mind sharing how much you had to pay for it, would you? -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:00 PM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: New airplane Hi Paul, I'll bet it is Cub Yellow. My Kitfox 4-1200 is the same color. (not to be confused with Lock Haven Yellow or Lemon Yellow ,which were the colors the early Cubs were painted) That is also the Cub lightning bolt on the side. It is a sharp bird. Larry Huntley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: New airplane ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:18 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question. Benedict Arnold... gee I wish I could say I was into the run again but alas it was just a brain ####. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 6:16 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question. Noel, Did you mean Benedict Arnold? Or Benjamin Franklin on that battery hook up? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL _____ From: noelloveys@yahoo.ca Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question. I agree if your radio has a separate battery. Yes I know you can fly NORDO I've been in planes where it has been done but... Do you really want to do it? Daytime VFR only Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question. See now there's the issue. I should be fine with a none or all approach. If I lose every single powered device on the panel I'm still fine to fly day VFR until I can land and fix the problem. Which would be much easier the simpler the system is. If I was flying a high alt passage through multiple control zones at night in IFR conditions I'd need all that. But I wouldn't be flying a Kitfox. ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 11:50 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question. Ok. Wiring to the battery side of the starter solenoid doesn't allow you to cut power from the alternator to the main buss without also cutting the power from the battery. The power being generated and rectified is less than 16A DC @ 13.8V. Hardly heavy current carrying wire. Doing the wiring the way you suggested only allows a none or all wiring approach. Having a 16ga wire feeding the buss through a breaker then allows you to run either from the battery or the alternator. BTW I recommend that you have a master relay as close to the battery as possible to protect the heavy starter wire. If not a relay than at least a fused link capable of carrying the starter current. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question. Got a private reply that didn't help. Yes folks I meant the battery side of the starter relay, not the starter. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave G Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Rectifier to battery connection question. Can anyone see any reason why I can not or should not keep all the wiring from the rectifier / regulator on the engine side of the firewall. I want to remove these wires currently penetrating the firewall and have the positive side go to the battery side of the starter through a weather tight fuse and the ground side go to the battery ground on the engine. This arrangement will leave the regulator attached to the battery full time, but fused. I'm aiming for simple here folks. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:08 PM PST US From: "Neil France" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox in Ft. Lauderdale Hello listers, Todd, from 'Todd's canopies , has agreed to make me a custom windshield for my Mk IV speedster, and would like to know if there is someone nearby to his place in Fort Lauderdale FL33334, who would be willing to let him have a look at their aircraft (finished or not), to take some measurements from the windshield framework ? He makes excellent windshields and canopies for a wide variety of aircraft. I have used his products for many of my past projects, and found them to be better than a lot of kit supplied parts. Check out his web site here - http://www.toddscanopies.com/ Thanks in advance, Neil. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:03 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: KFM engine From: "KFMFOX" Hi everybody, I am a Kitfox owner from Germany. I have a model III with a Rotax 582 and have purchased a KFM 112M a couple of days ago.....without an engine mount! Does anybody possibly have some technical drawings to build one....? Greetings from Germany Tobi Siegfried Model III D-ETSB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233952#233952 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:55 PM PST US From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: New airplane Larry=2C you would win that bet! It was painted with Randolf paint=2C and the one can I got with the plane says Piper J 3 Yellow on it. I put the b lack stripe on the plane myself=2C with black pressure sensitve vinyl. It looked just to bare without any stripe so I looked at pics of Cubs on the n et and copied them as best as I could. Also=2C in answer to your answer Pa ul on price=2C I'll just say I got a good deal. When I get my MK IV flying again=2C I plan to sell this one. Thanks again to all for your compliment s on my new toy=2C I sure like it so far. Jim Chuk Mn Avids and Kitfox > From: asq@roadrunner.com > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: New airplane > Date: Mon=2C 9 Mar 2009 16:58:24 -0400 > > > Hi Paul=2C > I'll bet it is Cub Yellow. My Kitfox 4-1200 is the same color. (not to be > confused with Lock Haven Yellow or Lemon Yellow =2Cwhich were the colors the > early Cubs were painted) That is also the Cub lightning bolt on the side. It > is a sharp bird. Larry Huntley > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" > To: > Sent: Monday=2C March 09=2C 2009 4:14 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: New airplane > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to m eet. http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:10 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: KFM engine Tobi=2C I am familiar with KFM motorcycles. I don't think you are going to find any info on that particular mount. IYou are the 1st one that I have he ard of using a KFM engine. What type=2C size =2C HP and weight is that engi ne? What reduction box are you going to use? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL > Subject: Kitfox-List: KFM engine > From: tobiassiegfried@aol.com > Date: Mon=2C 9 Mar 2009 15:41:34 -0700 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Hi everybody=2C > > I am a Kitfox owner from Germany. I have a model III with a Rotax 582 and have purchased a KFM 112M a couple of days ago.....without an engine mount ! Does anybody possibly have some technical drawings to build one....? > > Greetings from Germany > > Tobi Siegfried > Model III > D-ETSB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233952#233952 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:48 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I tell my kids, don't do that! At 11:06 AM 3/9/2009, you wrote: >I had a learning experience on the way to the Cactus Fly-In in Casa >Grande, Az. from Hell Paso, Tx. Hey Pete, How about a trip report on the Cactus Fly-In? I was going to go from San Diego, but decided against it at the last minute. Tell me what I missed. Thanks, Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.