Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:20 AM - Re: KFM engine (KFMFOX)
2. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: KFM engine (patrick reilly)
3. 06:58 AM - Xtra Pistons (george.mueller@aurora.org)
4. 08:18 AM - Re: I tell my kids, don't do that! (Pete Christensen)
5. 09:05 AM - Re: Xtra Pistons (fox5flyer)
6. 10:23 AM - Re: Engine choice (JetPilot)
7. 10:45 AM - Re: Xtra Pistons (JetPilot)
8. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: Xtra Pistons (Randy Daughenbaugh)
9. 11:50 AM - And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land (Pete Christensen)
10. 12:39 PM - Re: And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land (Rexinator)
11. 01:42 PM - Re: Xtra Pistons (Michael Logan)
12. 03:09 PM - Re: Xtra Pistons (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
13. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: Xtra Pistons (paul wilson)
14. 04:07 PM - Re: And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land (815TL)
15. 04:26 PM - Re: Xtra Pistons (Michael Logan)
16. 06:32 PM - Re: Re: Engine choice (Lowell Fitt)
17. 09:17 PM - Re: Engine choice (JetPilot)
18. 09:22 PM - Re: Xtra Pistons (JetPilot)
19. 11:09 PM - engine choice (steve shinabery)
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Hi Pat,
The engine is a 4 cylinder 4 stroke with 1600 cc and is by design an aircraft
engine. It is a direct drive and was actually an option for the model II. It
looks very much like a shrinked Lycoming and produces some 62hp. Production stopped
in the early ninties.
Tobi
Mod III
582
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234005#234005
Message 2
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Tobi=2C Now I learned something=2C I didn't know there was a KFM. I was thi
nking of KTM motorcycles. Where was KFM produced?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KFM engine
> From: tobiassiegfried@aol.com
> Date: Tue=2C 10 Mar 2009 02:19:46 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Hi Pat=2C
>
> The engine is a 4 cylinder 4 stroke with 1600 cc and is by design an airc
raft engine. It is a direct drive and was actually an option for the model
II. It looks very much like a shrinked Lycoming and produces some 62hp. Pro
duction stopped in the early ninties.
>
> Tobi
> Mod III
> 582
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234005#234005
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 3
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Has anyone tried the Xtra pistons which supposedly increase the horsepower
of a Rotax 912 80 hp up to 95 hp? Did they work? Any problems with them?
George in Milwaukee
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| Subject: | Re: I tell my kids, don't do that! |
Cactus was great this year. Friday was a bit sparse as many people could
not travel until Saturday. It is allot more laid back than Copperstate
and a high ratio of old farts (like me) and old airplanes. They had a
social hour each evening and it seems that just 3 or 4 of us were
drinking the free beer Friday night but many more were there for
Saturday night. My Trip from El Paso averaged 15-20 mph headwinds @
6500. Higher would have been much worse. I had to land at San Manuel,
AZ for a pit stop. That's when I found I had a flat.
After 2 hours of screwing around with my flat and help from a couple
really nice strangers, the winds had come up to 18 mph + gusts directly
across the runway. I had to make a takeoff on the taxiway. After
taking off I had to climb in a downdraft to 6000 ft then head through a
pass where my ground speed was 39 and indicated airspeed was 85 mph. 5
hours total flying time. Going home Sunday a friend and I flew together
over to Marana Rgnl. for breakfast. They have a great restaurant there.
Tailwinds going home averaged +/-10mph but it was a rough ride all the
way since we got a late start.
Here is a picture of San Manuel taxiway.
----- Original Message -----
From: Guy Buchanan
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I tell my kids, don't do that!
At 11:06 AM 3/9/2009, you wrote:
I had a learning experience on the way to the Cactus Fly-In in Casa
Grande, Az. from Hell Paso, Tx.
Hey Pete,
How about a trip report on the Cactus Fly-In? I was going to
go from San Diego, but decided against it at the last minute. Tell me
what I missed.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Xtra Pistons |
I recall that a member of this list reported that he installed the
piston kit and was pleased with the results. I don't know if he's with
us still, but there may be others.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
Has anyone tried the Xtra pistons which supposedly increase the
horsepower of a Rotax 912 80 hp up to 95 hp? Did they work? Any
problems with them?
George in Milwaukee
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine choice |
lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Great resource Marko.
>
> I have one observation, however. Of course flying behind a Rotax 912 UL for
> 900 hours before losing that airplane in a forced landing,
> Lowell
>
>
> ---
Lowell,
What caused your forced landing ? Was the plane not rebuildable ? What type
of engine do you have now ? The 912 series has a reputation for being very
reliable, I had not heard about your forced landing. The 912's are expensive
engines, but considered well worth the money if you can afford it.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234073#234073
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Xtra Pistons |
I don't know anything about those pistons, but when you start increasing compression
to increase horsepower, you can run into detonation and reliability problems.
Many times a short term increase in HP is most definitely not worth sacrificing
reliability and having a engine prone to detonation.
I am not saying this is the case here with the 912, but I have see this type of
thing do bad things to other engines so many times that I would sure do a lot
of research on it. Again, most of these things turn out badly, Rotax knew what
they were doing when they designed the engine for a certain HP and also temps,
detonation, and running characteristics. You also have a gearbox to worry
about if you have stronger power pulses with higher compression pistons. If
it were me, I would not risk messing up a very good running engine like the Rotax
912 it for a few more HP.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234078#234078
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Xtra Pistons |
I have flown in a fox with these pistons. It may belong to the guy that
Deke mentioned - the barefoot pilot. He was real happy with the pistons. I
agree with what Mike says, but in the case of the barefoot pilot, his home
field was over 4600' elevation. At 4000' engines produce only 80% of the
horsepower they produce at sea level, so he figured that he was just getting
back some of that power. He did fly to Leadville Colorado at 11,000' (?).
He did switch to premium gas due to the increase in compression ratio.
I don't think that George can rationalize his choice on this basis.
Randy - a 912S that produces 80 hp where I fly...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:45 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Xtra Pistons
I don't know anything about those pistons, but when you start increasing
compression to increase horsepower, you can run into detonation and
reliability problems. Many times a short term increase in HP is most
definitely not worth sacrificing reliability and having a engine prone to
detonation.
I am not saying this is the case here with the 912, but I have see this type
of thing do bad things to other engines so many times that I would sure do a
lot of research on it. Again, most of these things turn out badly, Rotax
knew what they were doing when they designed the engine for a certain HP and
also temps, detonation, and running characteristics. You also have a
gearbox to worry about if you have stronger power pulses with higher
compression pistons. If it were me, I would not risk messing up a very good
running engine like the Rotax 912 it for a few more HP.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234078#234078
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| Subject: | And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land |
How about a U2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eamnTyfkUBY
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| Subject: | Re: And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land |
HA! I didn't know that about landing a U2 even though I was assigned to
a U2 maintenance squadron when I was in the Air Force. I didn't get to
see any landing mishaps. I guess all the pilots I saw were well
practiced. It makes sense now that I see the video and think about the
gear configuration.
Rex
M2 582
Colorado
Do Not Archive
Pete Christensen wrote:
> <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
>
> How about a U2:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eamnTyfkUBY
Message 11
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George,
I know the guy that paid for the development of the Xtra pistons. He flies
a Pulsar behind his Xtra engine and he runs it very hard and has many hours
on it. There has never been any sort of problem or hiccups in the engine.
With the higher compression, he actually gets a lower fuel burn. After he
developed the pistons, Rotax did virtually the same thing with the 912S.
I am not saying this because he is a friend of mine, I actually think he is
a bit of a you know what but the fact is, the pistons work well.
Mike Logan
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
george.mueller@aurora.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:53 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Xtra Pistons
Has anyone tried the Xtra pistons which supposedly increase the horsepower
of a Rotax 912 80 hp up to 95 hp? Did they work? Any problems with them?
George in Milwaukee
Message 12
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On Tue, March 10, 2009 12:42 pm, Michael Logan wrote:
> I know the guy that paid for the development of the Xtra pistons. He flies
> a Pulsar behind his Xtra engine and he runs it very hard and has many hours
> on it. There has never been any sort of problem or hiccups in the engine.
> With the higher compression, he actually gets a lower fuel burn. After he
> developed the pistons, Rotax did virtually the same thing with the 912S.
Apparently the company is:
Craftmasters, Inc. Woodbridge, VA. 22191
FOR ORDER INFORMATION CALL (703) 652-9480
OR e-mail jerry@craftworks.biz
A circa 2004 advertisement quotes the conversion for $800.
<http://www.masterkraft.com/>
Here's the simple looking installation instructions and a new price of $850.
<http://www.craftworks.biz/pistonsite/6318.htm>
In step 21 it says;
"You will also need to run high octane fuel, 92, 93 from your auto gas station
or
100LL from your airport".
Getting gasoline with an octane rating of higher than 91 is maybe a little difficult,
at least around here. Interesting too it says "The pistons will raise your compression
ratio up to 10.5 to 1 the same as the new Rotax912S" in their sales page:
<http://www.craftworks.biz/pistonsite/912sales.htm>
They also say the pistons are forged. Another company who makes replacement pistons
including the 912S pistons is JP Associates. The claim the stock Rotax pistons
are
cast and not forged. They also say their forged sets come with new rings and wrist
pins. They explain what they think are the advantages and possible disadvantages
to
using forged pistons.
<http://www.experimentalfuelinjection.com/wst_page9.php>
I don't know if what they say is true but I do know that the best way to increase
the
thermal efficiency of the Otto Cycle Engine (spark ignition) is to increase the
compression ratio. I think 10.5:1 compression ratio is being used in real hot car
engines now but I don't know if their owners have detonation problems with 91 Octane
that's prevalent at the pumps.
> I am not saying this because he is a friend of mine, I actually think he is
> a bit of a you know what but the fact is, the pistons work well.
Could that person be jerry@craftworks.biz ?
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Xtra Pistons |
Correct Mike,
The only one I am familiar with was a guy near Denver. The hi
compression pistons resulted in sea level Hp at 5k'. No issues with
the engine at that altitude.
Paul\==========
At 09:44 AM 3/10/2009, you wrote:
>
>I don't know anything about those pistons, but when you start
>increasing compression to increase horsepower, you can run into
>detonation and reliability problems. Many times a short term
>increase in HP is most definitely not worth sacrificing reliability
>and having a engine prone to detonation.
>
>I am not saying this is the case here with the 912, but I have see
>this type of thing do bad things to other engines so many times that
>I would sure do a lot of research on it. Again, most of these
>things turn out badly, Rotax knew what they were doing when they
>designed the engine for a certain HP and also temps, detonation, and
>running characteristics. You also have a gearbox to worry about if
>you have stronger power pulses with higher compression pistons. If
>it were me, I would not risk messing up a very good running engine
>like the Rotax 912 it for a few more HP.
>
>Mike
>
>--------
>"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
>you could have !!!
>
>Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234078#234078
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land |
Looks about like landing a glider, but much bigger. I think that the gear stick
down too low, if it was closer to the body it might have been easier. Then
again, there must have been a reason they designed it that way.
Andrew
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234131#234131
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That would be him.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz -
Merlin GT
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Xtra Pistons
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Tue, March 10, 2009 12:42 pm, Michael Logan wrote:
> I know the guy that paid for the development of the Xtra pistons. He
flies
> a Pulsar behind his Xtra engine and he runs it very hard and has many
hours
> on it. There has never been any sort of problem or hiccups in the engine.
> With the higher compression, he actually gets a lower fuel burn. After he
> developed the pistons, Rotax did virtually the same thing with the 912S.
Apparently the company is:
Craftmasters, Inc. Woodbridge, VA. 22191
FOR ORDER INFORMATION CALL (703) 652-9480
OR e-mail jerry@craftworks.biz
A circa 2004 advertisement quotes the conversion for $800.
<http://www.masterkraft.com/>
Here's the simple looking installation instructions and a new price of $850.
<http://www.craftworks.biz/pistonsite/6318.htm>
In step 21 it says;
"You will also need to run high octane fuel, 92, 93 from your auto gas
station or
100LL from your airport".
Getting gasoline with an octane rating of higher than 91 is maybe a little
difficult,
at least around here. Interesting too it says "The pistons will raise your
compression
ratio up to 10.5 to 1 the same as the new Rotax912S" in their sales page:
<http://www.craftworks.biz/pistonsite/912sales.htm>
They also say the pistons are forged. Another company who makes replacement
pistons
including the 912S pistons is JP Associates. The claim the stock Rotax
pistons are
cast and not forged. They also say their forged sets come with new rings and
wrist
pins. They explain what they think are the advantages and possible
disadvantages to
using forged pistons.
<http://www.experimentalfuelinjection.com/wst_page9.php>
I don't know if what they say is true but I do know that the best way to
increase the
thermal efficiency of the Otto Cycle Engine (spark ignition) is to increase
the
compression ratio. I think 10.5:1 compression ratio is being used in real
hot car
engines now but I don't know if their owners have detonation problems with
91 Octane
that's prevalent at the pumps.
> I am not saying this because he is a friend of mine, I actually think he
is
> a bit of a you know what but the fact is, the pistons work well.
Could that person be jerry@craftworks.biz ?
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Engine choice |
Mike, It was contamination in the oil that resulted in a drop in oil
pressure. We were on the way to the factory fly-in two years ago and over
the Sierra foothills. I decided that the prudent thing to do was make a
precautionary landing in a clearing. The landing didn't come out very well,
as I landed away from the river and powerlines, but found my path to
actually be downhill and the ground sank at just about the same rate as I
was and I put it down rather than take my chances with the oak trees.
The contamination was presumed to be from an oil bottle - possibly the ring
that secures the cap. The engine never quit.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:22 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine choice
>
>
> lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:
>> Great resource Marko.
>>
>> I have one observation, however. Of course flying behind a Rotax 912 UL
>> for
>> 900 hours before losing that airplane in a forced landing,
>> Lowell
>>
>>
>> ---
>
>
> Lowell,
>
> What caused your forced landing ? Was the plane not rebuildable ? What
> type of engine do you have now ? The 912 series has a reputation for
> being very reliable, I had not heard about your forced landing. The 912's
> are expensive engines, but considered well worth the money if you can
> afford it.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
> could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234073#234073
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Engine choice |
That had to suck, but thanks for sharing the story. I will be very careful of
those rings when pouring oil into engines after hearing this.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234160#234160
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Xtra Pistons |
Interesting stuff, it sounds like it may be a very good way to get rated HP at
higher altitudes. Just keeping rated HP, and not using it to overstress the engine
makes this mod sound a lot more attractive. Here in Florida, I never have
to worry about that losing power with altitude :) I cant remember the last
time I flew my 912-S over 1000 feet, and all the airports within 150 miles
of me are at 10 feet MSL.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234161#234161
Message 19
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I too belive that when you change things in your engine from stock.Like
changing pistons,cranks,rods,etc...you do increase HP.and may B more
speed..BUT...having sand rails that when I changed things for more
power,and HP..yes that is true..BUT down the road you will pay for it..I
found out in the long run..there was alot of reliability problems,,and
all ways working on them VW engines.and then when they broke down they
would cost even more to fix them..All so they would break down at the
darnest times.when you did not want then to..Like when going up a steep
hill..OH no the engine just blew up...this has happen many times...so
after all of that.messing with thoese VW engines..now I do not change
engines any more .I leave them stock...my life means more that a little
extra HP..and all so now I do not have to keep working on them either..a
lot more reliability..Just my thoughts on the matter...Steve Shinabery
N554KF KF2 rotax 582
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