---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/10/09: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:20 AM - Re: KFM engine (KFMFOX) 2. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: KFM engine (patrick reilly) 3. 06:58 AM - Xtra Pistons (george.mueller@aurora.org) 4. 08:18 AM - Re: I tell my kids, don't do that! (Pete Christensen) 5. 09:05 AM - Re: Xtra Pistons (fox5flyer) 6. 10:23 AM - Re: Engine choice (JetPilot) 7. 10:45 AM - Re: Xtra Pistons (JetPilot) 8. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: Xtra Pistons (Randy Daughenbaugh) 9. 11:50 AM - And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land (Pete Christensen) 10. 12:39 PM - Re: And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land (Rexinator) 11. 01:42 PM - Re: Xtra Pistons (Michael Logan) 12. 03:09 PM - Re: Xtra Pistons (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) 13. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: Xtra Pistons (paul wilson) 14. 04:07 PM - Re: And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land (815TL) 15. 04:26 PM - Re: Xtra Pistons (Michael Logan) 16. 06:32 PM - Re: Re: Engine choice (Lowell Fitt) 17. 09:17 PM - Re: Engine choice (JetPilot) 18. 09:22 PM - Re: Xtra Pistons (JetPilot) 19. 11:09 PM - engine choice (steve shinabery) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:54 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KFM engine From: "KFMFOX" Hi Pat, The engine is a 4 cylinder 4 stroke with 1600 cc and is by design an aircraft engine. It is a direct drive and was actually an option for the model II. It looks very much like a shrinked Lycoming and produces some 62hp. Production stopped in the early ninties. Tobi Mod III 582 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234005#234005 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:19 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: KFM engine Tobi=2C Now I learned something=2C I didn't know there was a KFM. I was thi nking of KTM motorcycles. Where was KFM produced? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KFM engine > From: tobiassiegfried@aol.com > Date: Tue=2C 10 Mar 2009 02:19:46 -0700 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Hi Pat=2C > > The engine is a 4 cylinder 4 stroke with 1600 cc and is by design an airc raft engine. It is a direct drive and was actually an option for the model II. It looks very much like a shrinked Lycoming and produces some 62hp. Pro duction stopped in the early ninties. > > Tobi > Mod III > 582 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234005#234005 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:45 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Xtra Pistons From: george.mueller@aurora.org Has anyone tried the Xtra pistons which supposedly increase the horsepower of a Rotax 912 80 hp up to 95 hp? Did they work? Any problems with them? George in Milwaukee ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:10 AM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I tell my kids, don't do that! Cactus was great this year. Friday was a bit sparse as many people could not travel until Saturday. It is allot more laid back than Copperstate and a high ratio of old farts (like me) and old airplanes. They had a social hour each evening and it seems that just 3 or 4 of us were drinking the free beer Friday night but many more were there for Saturday night. My Trip from El Paso averaged 15-20 mph headwinds @ 6500. Higher would have been much worse. I had to land at San Manuel, AZ for a pit stop. That's when I found I had a flat. After 2 hours of screwing around with my flat and help from a couple really nice strangers, the winds had come up to 18 mph + gusts directly across the runway. I had to make a takeoff on the taxiway. After taking off I had to climb in a downdraft to 6000 ft then head through a pass where my ground speed was 39 and indicated airspeed was 85 mph. 5 hours total flying time. Going home Sunday a friend and I flew together over to Marana Rgnl. for breakfast. They have a great restaurant there. Tailwinds going home averaged +/-10mph but it was a rough ride all the way since we got a late start. Here is a picture of San Manuel taxiway. ----- Original Message ----- From: Guy Buchanan To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:43 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I tell my kids, don't do that! At 11:06 AM 3/9/2009, you wrote: I had a learning experience on the way to the Cactus Fly-In in Casa Grande, Az. from Hell Paso, Tx. Hey Pete, How about a trip report on the Cactus Fly-In? I was going to go from San Diego, but decided against it at the last minute. Tell me what I missed. Thanks, Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:51 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Xtra Pistons I recall that a member of this list reported that he installed the piston kit and was pleased with the results. I don't know if he's with us still, but there may be others. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert Has anyone tried the Xtra pistons which supposedly increase the horsepower of a Rotax 912 80 hp up to 95 hp? Did they work? Any problems with them? George in Milwaukee ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:53 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine choice From: "JetPilot" lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: > Great resource Marko. > > I have one observation, however. Of course flying behind a Rotax 912 UL for > 900 hours before losing that airplane in a forced landing, > Lowell > > > --- Lowell, What caused your forced landing ? Was the plane not rebuildable ? What type of engine do you have now ? The 912 series has a reputation for being very reliable, I had not heard about your forced landing. The 912's are expensive engines, but considered well worth the money if you can afford it. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234073#234073 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:47 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Xtra Pistons From: "JetPilot" I don't know anything about those pistons, but when you start increasing compression to increase horsepower, you can run into detonation and reliability problems. Many times a short term increase in HP is most definitely not worth sacrificing reliability and having a engine prone to detonation. I am not saying this is the case here with the 912, but I have see this type of thing do bad things to other engines so many times that I would sure do a lot of research on it. Again, most of these things turn out badly, Rotax knew what they were doing when they designed the engine for a certain HP and also temps, detonation, and running characteristics. You also have a gearbox to worry about if you have stronger power pulses with higher compression pistons. If it were me, I would not risk messing up a very good running engine like the Rotax 912 it for a few more HP. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234078#234078 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:26:25 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Xtra Pistons I have flown in a fox with these pistons. It may belong to the guy that Deke mentioned - the barefoot pilot. He was real happy with the pistons. I agree with what Mike says, but in the case of the barefoot pilot, his home field was over 4600' elevation. At 4000' engines produce only 80% of the horsepower they produce at sea level, so he figured that he was just getting back some of that power. He did fly to Leadville Colorado at 11,000' (?). He did switch to premium gas due to the increase in compression ratio. I don't think that George can rationalize his choice on this basis. Randy - a 912S that produces 80 hp where I fly... -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:45 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Xtra Pistons I don't know anything about those pistons, but when you start increasing compression to increase horsepower, you can run into detonation and reliability problems. Many times a short term increase in HP is most definitely not worth sacrificing reliability and having a engine prone to detonation. I am not saying this is the case here with the 912, but I have see this type of thing do bad things to other engines so many times that I would sure do a lot of research on it. Again, most of these things turn out badly, Rotax knew what they were doing when they designed the engine for a certain HP and also temps, detonation, and running characteristics. You also have a gearbox to worry about if you have stronger power pulses with higher compression pistons. If it were me, I would not risk messing up a very good running engine like the Rotax 912 it for a few more HP. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234078#234078 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:13 AM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Kitfox-List: And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land How about a U2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eamnTyfkUBY ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:54 PM PST US From: Rexinator Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land HA! I didn't know that about landing a U2 even though I was assigned to a U2 maintenance squadron when I was in the Air Force. I didn't get to see any landing mishaps. I guess all the pilots I saw were well practiced. It makes sense now that I see the video and think about the gear configuration. Rex M2 582 Colorado Do Not Archive Pete Christensen wrote: > > > How about a U2: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eamnTyfkUBY ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:48 PM PST US From: "Michael Logan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Xtra Pistons George, I know the guy that paid for the development of the Xtra pistons. He flies a Pulsar behind his Xtra engine and he runs it very hard and has many hours on it. There has never been any sort of problem or hiccups in the engine. With the higher compression, he actually gets a lower fuel burn. After he developed the pistons, Rotax did virtually the same thing with the 912S. I am not saying this because he is a friend of mine, I actually think he is a bit of a you know what but the fact is, the pistons work well. Mike Logan _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of george.mueller@aurora.org Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:53 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Xtra Pistons Has anyone tried the Xtra pistons which supposedly increase the horsepower of a Rotax 912 80 hp up to 95 hp? Did they work? Any problems with them? George in Milwaukee ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:03 PM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Xtra Pistons From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Tue, March 10, 2009 12:42 pm, Michael Logan wrote: > I know the guy that paid for the development of the Xtra pistons. He flies > a Pulsar behind his Xtra engine and he runs it very hard and has many hours > on it. There has never been any sort of problem or hiccups in the engine. > With the higher compression, he actually gets a lower fuel burn. After he > developed the pistons, Rotax did virtually the same thing with the 912S. Apparently the company is: Craftmasters, Inc. Woodbridge, VA. 22191 FOR ORDER INFORMATION CALL (703) 652-9480 OR e-mail jerry@craftworks.biz A circa 2004 advertisement quotes the conversion for $800. Here's the simple looking installation instructions and a new price of $850. In step 21 it says; "You will also need to run high octane fuel, 92, 93 from your auto gas station or 100LL from your airport". Getting gasoline with an octane rating of higher than 91 is maybe a little difficult, at least around here. Interesting too it says "The pistons will raise your compression ratio up to 10.5 to 1 the same as the new Rotax912S" in their sales page: They also say the pistons are forged. Another company who makes replacement pistons including the 912S pistons is JP Associates. The claim the stock Rotax pistons are cast and not forged. They also say their forged sets come with new rings and wrist pins. They explain what they think are the advantages and possible disadvantages to using forged pistons. I don't know if what they say is true but I do know that the best way to increase the thermal efficiency of the Otto Cycle Engine (spark ignition) is to increase the compression ratio. I think 10.5:1 compression ratio is being used in real hot car engines now but I don't know if their owners have detonation problems with 91 Octane that's prevalent at the pumps. > I am not saying this because he is a friend of mine, I actually think he is > a bit of a you know what but the fact is, the pistons work well. Could that person be jerry@craftworks.biz ? -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:55 PM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Xtra Pistons Correct Mike, The only one I am familiar with was a guy near Denver. The hi compression pistons resulted in sea level Hp at 5k'. No issues with the engine at that altitude. Paul\========== At 09:44 AM 3/10/2009, you wrote: > >I don't know anything about those pistons, but when you start >increasing compression to increase horsepower, you can run into >detonation and reliability problems. Many times a short term >increase in HP is most definitely not worth sacrificing reliability >and having a engine prone to detonation. > >I am not saying this is the case here with the 912, but I have see >this type of thing do bad things to other engines so many times that >I would sure do a lot of research on it. Again, most of these >things turn out badly, Rotax knew what they were doing when they >designed the engine for a certain HP and also temps, detonation, and >running characteristics. You also have a gearbox to worry about if >you have stronger power pulses with higher compression pistons. If >it were me, I would not risk messing up a very good running engine >like the Rotax 912 it for a few more HP. > >Mike > >-------- >"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as >you could have !!! > >Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234078#234078 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:28 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: And you thought a Kitfox was hard to land From: "815TL" Looks about like landing a glider, but much bigger. I think that the gear stick down too low, if it was closer to the body it might have been easier. Then again, there must have been a reason they designed it that way. Andrew Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234131#234131 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:20 PM PST US From: "Michael Logan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Xtra Pistons That would be him. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz - Merlin GT Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:08 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Xtra Pistons On Tue, March 10, 2009 12:42 pm, Michael Logan wrote: > I know the guy that paid for the development of the Xtra pistons. He flies > a Pulsar behind his Xtra engine and he runs it very hard and has many hours > on it. There has never been any sort of problem or hiccups in the engine. > With the higher compression, he actually gets a lower fuel burn. After he > developed the pistons, Rotax did virtually the same thing with the 912S. Apparently the company is: Craftmasters, Inc. Woodbridge, VA. 22191 FOR ORDER INFORMATION CALL (703) 652-9480 OR e-mail jerry@craftworks.biz A circa 2004 advertisement quotes the conversion for $800. Here's the simple looking installation instructions and a new price of $850. In step 21 it says; "You will also need to run high octane fuel, 92, 93 from your auto gas station or 100LL from your airport". Getting gasoline with an octane rating of higher than 91 is maybe a little difficult, at least around here. Interesting too it says "The pistons will raise your compression ratio up to 10.5 to 1 the same as the new Rotax912S" in their sales page: They also say the pistons are forged. Another company who makes replacement pistons including the 912S pistons is JP Associates. The claim the stock Rotax pistons are cast and not forged. They also say their forged sets come with new rings and wrist pins. They explain what they think are the advantages and possible disadvantages to using forged pistons. I don't know if what they say is true but I do know that the best way to increase the thermal efficiency of the Otto Cycle Engine (spark ignition) is to increase the compression ratio. I think 10.5:1 compression ratio is being used in real hot car engines now but I don't know if their owners have detonation problems with 91 Octane that's prevalent at the pumps. > I am not saying this because he is a friend of mine, I actually think he is > a bit of a you know what but the fact is, the pistons work well. Could that person be jerry@craftworks.biz ? -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:29 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine choice Mike, It was contamination in the oil that resulted in a drop in oil pressure. We were on the way to the factory fly-in two years ago and over the Sierra foothills. I decided that the prudent thing to do was make a precautionary landing in a clearing. The landing didn't come out very well, as I landed away from the river and powerlines, but found my path to actually be downhill and the ground sank at just about the same rate as I was and I put it down rather than take my chances with the oak trees. The contamination was presumed to be from an oil bottle - possibly the ring that secures the cap. The engine never quit. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot" Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:22 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine choice > > > lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: >> Great resource Marko. >> >> I have one observation, however. Of course flying behind a Rotax 912 UL >> for >> 900 hours before losing that airplane in a forced landing, >> Lowell >> >> >> --- > > > Lowell, > > What caused your forced landing ? Was the plane not rebuildable ? What > type of engine do you have now ? The 912 series has a reputation for > being very reliable, I had not heard about your forced landing. The 912's > are expensive engines, but considered well worth the money if you can > afford it. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you > could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234073#234073 > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:09 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine choice From: "JetPilot" That had to suck, but thanks for sharing the story. I will be very careful of those rings when pouring oil into engines after hearing this. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234160#234160 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:49 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Xtra Pistons From: "JetPilot" Interesting stuff, it sounds like it may be a very good way to get rated HP at higher altitudes. Just keeping rated HP, and not using it to overstress the engine makes this mod sound a lot more attractive. Here in Florida, I never have to worry about that losing power with altitude :) I cant remember the last time I flew my 912-S over 1000 feet, and all the airports within 150 miles of me are at 10 feet MSL. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=234161#234161 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:42 PM PST US From: steve shinabery Subject: Kitfox-List: engine choice I too belive that when you change things in your engine from stock.Like changing pistons,cranks,rods,etc...you do increase HP.and may B more speed..BUT...having sand rails that when I changed things for more power,and HP..yes that is true..BUT down the road you will pay for it..I found out in the long run..there was alot of reliability problems,,and all ways working on them VW engines.and then when they broke down they would cost even more to fix them..All so they would break down at the darnest times.when you did not want then to..Like when going up a steep hill..OH no the engine just blew up...this has happen many times...so after all of that.messing with thoese VW engines..now I do not change engines any more .I leave them stock...my life means more that a little extra HP..and all so now I do not have to keep working on them either..a lot more reliability..Just my thoughts on the matter...Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2 rotax 582 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.