Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:02 AM - Re: Torque values (fox5flyer)
2. 06:39 AM - Re: Torque values (Lynn Matteson)
3. 08:22 AM - Re: 582 Thermostat/Bungee wraps... (Larry Huntley)
4. 08:23 AM - Re: Torque values (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
5. 08:42 AM - Emailing: Kitfox shock cord tools (Larry Huntley)
6. 09:27 AM - Re: Emailing: Kitfox shock cord tools (patrick reilly)
7. 10:29 AM - Re: Emailing: Kitfox reborn (1), Kitfox reborn (akflyer)
8. 01:27 PM - Remote Brake fluid reservoir (Pat Reilly)
9. 02:48 PM - Re: Torque values (Noel Loveys)
10. 08:47 PM - Re: Torque values (Roger Lee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Torque values |
Thanks for the response, Paul. As I said in my original message, I'll be
using the manufacturer's recommendation.
What I'd really like to know is the answer to my first question. When there
is a big spread on a recommended torque value as I said below, what does
this mean in normal working conditions? Under what conditions does one use
the lower, somewhere in the middle, or higher number?
Thanks,
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul@eucleides.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Torque values
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Thu, March 19, 2009 2:48 pm, Deke wrote:
>> I'm preparing to reinstall my prop and I'm ready to torque the AN5-10
>> bolts. The
>> torque values off the standard chart are for 180-220 inch lbs. The
>> manual that came
>> with the prop says 150 inch lbs.
>
> The specification that accompanies the prop is the one most relevant.
> These torque
> settings are from engineering design. That said, the engineer usually
> specifies the
> torque allowed for the bolt so I would check with the prop manufacturer's
> engineering
> dept to make certain of their intentions.
>
>> I'll probably go by the manual, but it makes me
>> wonder about this big 40 inch lb spread on the chart values. When faced
>> with a big
>> spread, which way is the recommended direction to go. Go with the
>> lesser, somewhere
>> in between, or the higher number? Also, I'm using a crow foot adapter.
>> Does that
>> make any difference to the values? Inquiring minds would like to know...
>
> If the crows foot is 90 deg to the wrench handle then it will not make a
> difference as
> long as you carefully push the handle on the center pivot.
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
> "In Washington, one person's waste is another person's pork. Every
> dime spent by the federal government has well-connected advocates
> who swear the money is vital to the national interest. ... It's not
> that people in government aren't as good or competent as those in
> the private sector (though that may be true). The difference lies in
> the incentives and feedback they face. Bureaucracies have little
> check on what they do, no bottom line, no market prices for their
> 'output.' What they do have is an incentive to spend all the money
> budgeted or risk getting less next year. As Milton Friedman used to
> say, no one spends other people's money as carefully as he spends
> his own. It is absurd to think the humongous constellation of
> federal bureaucracies is going to identify and root out 'waste' in
> any significant way. It's just not in the nature of the beast."
> -- ABC's "20/20" co-anchor John Stossel
>
>
> In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as
> possible from
> one party of the citizens to give to the other.
> -- Voltaire (1764)
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Torque values |
My guess...and it's only that...is that for a wood prop, you'd use
the lower number in dry, less humid conditions, knowing that when it
got humid, the prop will take on moisture, swell and the tension on
the bolts would rise. On the other hand, if you used the higher
numbers on a "wet" prop, and conditions dried out, the prop would
shrink, causing the higher tension on the bolts to decrease.
I recently obtained a new wood prop from Sensenich...built in Florida
(read humid)...and installed it with 160 in lbs (their recommended
numbers were 130-160) of torque. I flew it as suggested and after the
first flight I re-torqued it to that same figure. After about 30
hours of flying, I noticed that there was a black dust on the
periphery of the drive flange. I re-checked the torque, and it was
down to about 85 in-lbs. I re-torqued to 160. What I think happened
was the prop was manufactured in humid conditions, sent up here to
Michigan where the winters are dry. The prop dried a bit, torque was
lost, and the prop began to "slip" on the drive flange, causing the
black dust....fretted paint from the prop. I've since checked torque
again, and it was down to 145. There is a sticker on the prop right
next to the hub which cautions "wood props need to be checked for
proper torque frequently in varying humidity conditions" or words to
that effect. I used to check my prop at oil changes, but now I'll do
a check between changes, too.
Deke, if you have a metal prop, all the preceding rambling won't
answer your question, but it should get some of the engineers in the
audience to warm up their fingers. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 615.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Mar 20, 2009, at 9:01 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> Thanks for the response, Paul. As I said in my original message,
> I'll be using the manufacturer's recommendation.
>
> What I'd really like to know is the answer to my first question.
> When there is a big spread on a recommended torque value as I said
> below, what does this mean in normal working conditions? Under
> what conditions does one use the lower, somewhere in the middle, or
> higher number?
> Thanks,
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
> progress."
> - Joseph Joubert
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"
> <paul@eucleides.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Torque values
>
>
>> <paul@eucleides.com>
>>
>> On Thu, March 19, 2009 2:48 pm, Deke wrote:
>>> I'm preparing to reinstall my prop and I'm ready to torque the
>>> AN5-10 bolts. The
>>> torque values off the standard chart are for 180-220 inch lbs.
>>> The manual that came
>>> with the prop says 150 inch lbs.
>>
>> The specification that accompanies the prop is the one most
>> relevant. These torque
>> settings are from engineering design. That said, the engineer
>> usually specifies the
>> torque allowed for the bolt so I would check with the prop
>> manufacturer's engineering
>> dept to make certain of their intentions.
>>
>>> I'll probably go by the manual, but it makes me
>>> wonder about this big 40 inch lb spread on the chart values.
>>> When faced with a big
>>> spread, which way is the recommended direction to go. Go with
>>> the lesser, somewhere
>>> in between, or the higher number? Also, I'm using a crow foot
>>> adapter. Does that
>>> make any difference to the values? Inquiring minds would like to
>>> know...
>>
>> If the crows foot is 90 deg to the wrench handle then it will not
>> make a difference as
>> long as you carefully push the handle on the center pivot.
>> --
>> Paul A. Franz
>> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
>> Bellevue WA
>> 425.241.1618 Cell
>>
>> "In Washington, one person's waste is another person's pork. Every
>> dime spent by the federal government has well-connected advocates
>> who swear the money is vital to the national interest. ... It's not
>> that people in government aren't as good or competent as those in
>> the private sector (though that may be true). The difference lies in
>> the incentives and feedback they face. Bureaucracies have little
>> check on what they do, no bottom line, no market prices for their
>> 'output.' What they do have is an incentive to spend all the money
>> budgeted or risk getting less next year. As Milton Friedman used to
>> say, no one spends other people's money as carefully as he spends
>> his own. It is absurd to think the humongous constellation of
>> federal bureaucracies is going to identify and root out 'waste' in
>> any significant way. It's just not in the nature of the beast."
>> -- ABC's "20/20" co-anchor John Stossel
>>
>>
>> In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money
>> as possible from
>> one party of the citizens to give to the other.
>> -- Voltaire (1764)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Thermostat/Bungee wraps... |
Hi Marco,
Pointy head, hhmmm. Are you assuming I have a sharp mind? Quite a
compliment. ;o) I took a pic and will send in a separate post.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: Marco Menezes
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Thermostat/Bungee wraps...
You're obviously a wizard, Larry. Question: are there pointy
heads under the pointy hats? ;-)
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
do not archive
--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Larry Huntley <asq@roadrunner.com> wrote:
From: Larry Huntley <asq@roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Thermostat/Bungee wraps...
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 12:49 PM
It is a snap! I will try to take pix of the proper tools and
procedure. My wife and I can install one six wraps in a lot less than 10
minutes. Larry Huntley
----- Original Message -----
From: Marco Menezes
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Thermostat/Bungee wraps...
How long were those bungies Andrew? Relaxed, new ones
should be 60" from loop to loop. While 6 wraps is a knuckle-busting
event (no place for ladies or children) it's do-able. Those who say it's
a snap are freaking wizards in my estimation. ;-)
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
--- On Tue, 3/17/09, Andrew Matthaey
<experimentalab@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Andrew Matthaey <experimentalab@yahoo.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Thermostat/Bungee wraps...
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 11:25 AM
Thanks Guy...Is that thermostat a 160 as opposed to
the stock? I'm almost embarrassed to say that the 4 wraps was WITH a
buddy! I guess I'll have to go and give it another shot then! What we
did was wrap a knot around the loop and used that to pull the bungee
through....didn't leave much room so maybe the screwdriver method will
work...
Andrew
do not archive
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03/17/09 10:18:00
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Torque values |
On Fri, March 20, 2009 5:01 am, Deke Morisse wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response, Paul. As I said in my original message, I'll be
> using the manufacturer's recommendation.
You're welcome. You should. However, dbl check with their engineering to be sure
of
their intentions.
> What I'd really like to know is the answer to my first question. When there
> is a big spread on a recommended torque value as I said below, what does
> this mean in normal working conditions? Under what conditions does one use
> the lower, somewhere in the middle, or higher number?
As a designer you may have reason to specify a lower torque setting. One comes
to mind
is where the bolt goes into or through something that might distort in shape if
given
the maximum allowable torque. Another case is where the bolt thread is far stronger
than the material it is anchored in like a steel bolt anchored in an aluminum casting.
The thread depth may not be sufficient to develop the maximum allowable torque
in the
bolt.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
"It is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are
apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth -- and listen to the
song of that syren, till she transforms us into beasts."
-- Patrick Henry
"The great advances of civilization, whether in architecture or
painting, in science or in literature, in industry or agriculture,
have never come from centralized government."
-- economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Emailing: Kitfox shock cord tools |
Hi Folks,
Here are the shock cord tool pix and instructions.
The red handle tool is a (K&D??) tool from NAPA for pulling spark plug
leads. The hook with a handle is homade from 1/4" steel round from the
hardware store. It has a bit more hook than it seems in the photo. I
have changed at least a dozen cords witht hese tools
I reach in the cabin and hook the first loop of the cord.thread it
down to Mary,she pushes it back up. I pull hard as I can and send it
back down.she sends it back and I hold TIGHT with the KD tool. The
important thing is that you hold tight . Don't let anything slip back.
Do it with the KD. send the end back down. She pulls as hard as she can
and you hold while she sends it back up. You pull like heck and grab
whith the tool.Repeat,repeat. Sometimes I grab the cord with the KD and
PUSH down to her and hold. Last step is to push the hook down through to
her and she hooks the end loop on it. If you have done well you will
pull up more cord than you actually need and hook it over the knob. You
will have taken a lot less than 10 minutes.
Remember,don't let any slip back.If you do you may have to unwrap the
whole cord and start over again. I have often thought for the few
dollars for the KD tool,it might make it easier if you had two. One to
pull up with and one to push down with.
Good luck and have fun.
` Regards, Larry
Huntley, 4-1200 SoobEA-81
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
attachments:
Kitfox shock cord tools
Message 6
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| Subject: | Emailing: Kitfox shock cord tools |
Larry=2C Thanks for the pictures. I have that exact sparkplug puller tool i
n my tool box. I am surprised you can hold the shockcord that tight with th
at tool. If I ever need to redo mine I will use your method.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rokford=2CIL
From: asq@roadrunner.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Emailing: Kitfox shock cord tools
Hi Folks=2C
Here are the shock cord tool pix and instructions.
The red handle tool is a (K&D??) tool from NAPA for pulling spark plug le
ads. The hook with a handle is homade from 1/4" steel round from the hardwa
re store. It has a bit more hook than it seems in the photo. I have changed
at least a dozen cords witht hese tools
I reach in the cabin and hook the first loop of the cord.thread it down t
o Mary=2Cshe pushes it back up. I pull hard as I can and send it back down.
she sends it back and I hold TIGHT with the KD tool. The important thing is
that you hold tight . Don't let anything slip back. Do it with the KD. sen
d the end back down. She pulls as hard as she can and you hold while she se
nds it back up. You pull like heck and grab whith the tool.Repeat=2Crepeat.
Sometimes I grab the cord with the KD and PUSH down to her and hold. Last
step is to push the hook down through to her and she hooks the end loop on
it. If you have done well you will pull up more cord than you actually need
and hook it over the knob. You will have taken a lot less than 10 minutes.
Remember=2Cdon't let any slip back.If you do you may have to unwrap the w
hole cord and start over again. I have often thought for the few dollars fo
r the KD tool=2Cit might make it easier if you had two. One to pull up with
and one to push down with.
Good luck and have fun.
` Regards=2C Larry Huntley
=2C 4-1200 SoobEA-81
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachment
s:
Kitfox shock cord tools
Note: To protect against computer viruses=2C e-mail programs may Check your
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Emailing: Kitfox reborn (1), Kitfox reborn |
Congrats on the rebuild and first flights again. Nothing like having your hard
work come together and the feeling you get when the wheels break the ground the
fist time again.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235388#235388
Message 8
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| Subject: | Remote Brake fluid reservoir |
Kitfoxers, I have a Matco remote reservoir kit MCR-100-K that I just
purchased from Matco. I find that I can not use a remote reservoir. My
system uses 2 C5 and 2 C4 cylinders. C5's have a reservoir built in.
Some systems use 4 C4's, a set for the pilot and the second set for the
co-pilot. C4's have no reservoir and require a remote. If anyone wants a
remote reservoir kit, I paid $50 with shipping, and will sell it for $45
shipping included. But, make sure you can use a remote reservoir because
I don't know how you can have a C4 system without already having a
remote unless you are converting from a combo C4 C5 to an all C4 set up.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
Message 9
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Going with the lower torque value will lead to much less stretching of
materials including the prop blades. Speaking of which always go by the
manufacturers recommendations. They may know something about the design of
your equipment that you or I do not know.
Noel Loveys
CDN AME Intern
PP-Rec, Kitfox III-A
Areocet 1100 floats
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:18 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Torque values
I'm preparing to reinstall my prop and I'm ready to torque the AN5-10 bolts.
The torque values off the standard chart are for 180-220 inch lbs. The
manual that came with the prop says 150 inch lbs. I'll probably go by the
manual, but it makes me wonder about this big 40 inch lb spread on the chart
values. When faced with a big spread, which way is the recommended
direction to go. Go with the lesser, somewhere in between, or the higher
number? Also, I'm using a crow foot adapter. Does that make any difference
to the values? Inquiring minds would like to know...
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Torque values |
If you turn the crows foot 90 degrees from the handle then the torque difference
is negligible, but if you keep it in line with the handle here is the proper
way to calculate the new value. Open the post below.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235472#235472
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/chapterpercent2007_131.pdf
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