---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 03/21/09: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:34 AM - Re: Torque values (fox5flyer) 2. 09:15 AM - Re: Torque values (Lynn Matteson) 3. 04:15 PM - leaking fuel inside the wing (WurlyBird) 4. 04:25 PM - Rudder trim tab (WurlyBird) 5. 04:36 PM - Re: leaking fuel inside the wing (Bob Brennan) 6. 04:59 PM - Re: leaking fuel inside the wing (Lowell Fitt) 7. 05:01 PM - Re: Rudder trim tab (Lowell Fitt) 8. 05:13 PM - Kitfox 3 (Ken Richter) 9. 05:17 PM - Re: Torque values (fox5flyer) 10. 05:22 PM - Proper Fix? (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) 11. 06:24 PM - Re: Rudder trim tab (WurlyBird) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:52 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Torque values Thanks, Lynn, et al. I'm surprised how hard it's been to get good hard data on these torque values. AC43.13 has some info--and good stuff too, but it doesn't go deep enough and seems to assume we all know about interference drag, etc. I called a local IA who couldn't definitively answer the question either, other than to say that he usually just picks a value somewhere in the middle of the spread. He also said he rarely bothers with a torque wrench and just goes by feel, depending on what he's doing. After wrenching on airplanes for 30 years, he probably has that "feel", but I don't trust mine. He also said that the torque values are only a guide and that "close is good enough" in most cases. I tend to agree with him for the most part, but not with my prop! I want that puppy exactly like it's supposed to be. :-) So, unless I can find some more information on this I'm not going to worry too much about it. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Torque values > > My guess...and it's only that...is that for a wood prop, you'd use the > lower number in dry, less humid conditions, knowing that when it got > humid, the prop will take on moisture, swell and the tension on the bolts > would rise. On the other hand, if you used the higher numbers on a > "wet" prop, and conditions dried out, the prop would shrink, causing the > higher tension on the bolts to decrease. > > I recently obtained a new wood prop from Sensenich...built in Florida > (read humid)...and installed it with 160 in lbs (their recommended > numbers were 130-160) of torque. I flew it as suggested and after the > first flight I re-torqued it to that same figure. After about 30 hours of > flying, I noticed that there was a black dust on the periphery of the > drive flange. I re-checked the torque, and it was down to about 85 > in-lbs. I re-torqued to 160. What I think happened was the prop was > manufactured in humid conditions, sent up here to Michigan where the > winters are dry. The prop dried a bit, torque was lost, and the prop > began to "slip" on the drive flange, causing the black dust....fretted > paint from the prop. I've since checked torque again, and it was down to > 145. There is a sticker on the prop right next to the hub which cautions > "wood props need to be checked for proper torque frequently in varying > humidity conditions" or words to that effect. I used to check my prop at > oil changes, but now I'll do a check between changes, too. > > Deke, if you have a metal prop, all the preceding rambling won't answer > your question, but it should get some of the engineers in the audience to > warm up their fingers. : ) > > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 615.2 hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Status: flying > > > On Mar 20, 2009, at 9:01 AM, fox5flyer wrote: > >> >> Thanks for the response, Paul. As I said in my original message, I'll >> be using the manufacturer's recommendation. >> >> What I'd really like to know is the answer to my first question. When >> there is a big spread on a recommended torque value as I said below, >> what does this mean in normal working conditions? Under what conditions >> does one use the lower, somewhere in the middle, or higher number? >> Thanks, >> Deke Morisse >> Mikado Michigan >> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT >> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but >> progress." >> - Joseph Joubert >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" >> >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:44 PM >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Torque values >> >> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, March 19, 2009 2:48 pm, Deke wrote: >>>> I'm preparing to reinstall my prop and I'm ready to torque the AN5-10 >>>> bolts. The >>>> torque values off the standard chart are for 180-220 inch lbs. The >>>> manual that came >>>> with the prop says 150 inch lbs. >>> >>> The specification that accompanies the prop is the one most relevant. >>> These torque >>> settings are from engineering design. That said, the engineer usually >>> specifies the >>> torque allowed for the bolt so I would check with the prop >>> manufacturer's engineering >>> dept to make certain of their intentions. >>> >>>> I'll probably go by the manual, but it makes me >>>> wonder about this big 40 inch lb spread on the chart values. When >>>> faced with a big >>>> spread, which way is the recommended direction to go. Go with the >>>> lesser, somewhere >>>> in between, or the higher number? Also, I'm using a crow foot >>>> adapter. Does that >>>> make any difference to the values? Inquiring minds would like to >>>> know... >>> >>> If the crows foot is 90 deg to the wrench handle then it will not make >>> a difference as >>> long as you carefully push the handle on the center pivot. >>> -- >>> Paul A. Franz >>> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT >>> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP >>> Bellevue WA >>> 425.241.1618 Cell >>> >>> "In Washington, one person's waste is another person's pork. Every >>> dime spent by the federal government has well-connected advocates >>> who swear the money is vital to the national interest. ... It's not >>> that people in government aren't as good or competent as those in >>> the private sector (though that may be true). The difference lies in >>> the incentives and feedback they face. Bureaucracies have little >>> check on what they do, no bottom line, no market prices for their >>> 'output.' What they do have is an incentive to spend all the money >>> budgeted or risk getting less next year. As Milton Friedman used to >>> say, no one spends other people's money as carefully as he spends >>> his own. It is absurd to think the humongous constellation of >>> federal bureaucracies is going to identify and root out 'waste' in >>> any significant way. It's just not in the nature of the beast." >>> -- ABC's "20/20" co-anchor John Stossel >>> >>> >>> In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as >>> possible from >>> one party of the citizens to give to the other. >>> -- Voltaire (1764) >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:56 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Torque values Hey, Deke, is it a metal prop? Or does it have a metal hub? The numbers on those are a lot less critical (I would think) than if the bolts are going to be "crushing" wood. Also, I noticed that you said you have AN5-10 bolts....I can't believe the "-10" part. This would make the bolts too short to go through almost anything, so I'm assuming that's a typo...is it? I'm thinking that if they're that short, they're only going through metal, so the range is probably not as critical as a wood application. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 616.5 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying On Mar 21, 2009, at 7:34 AM, fox5flyer wrote: > > > Thanks, Lynn, et al. I'm surprised how hard it's been to get good > hard data on these torque values. AC43.13 has some info--and good > stuff too, but it doesn't go deep enough and seems to assume we all > know about interference drag, etc. I called a local IA who > couldn't definitively answer the question either, other than to say > that he usually just picks a value somewhere in the middle of the > spread. He also said he rarely bothers with a torque wrench and > just goes by feel, depending on what he's doing. After wrenching > on airplanes for 30 years, he probably has that "feel", but I don't > trust mine. He also said that the torque values are only a guide > and that "close is good enough" in most cases. I tend to agree > with him for the most part, but not with my prop! I want that > puppy exactly like it's supposed to be. :-) So, unless I can > find some more information on this I'm not going to worry too much > about it. > Deke Morisse > Mikado Michigan > S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT > "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but > progress." > - Joseph Joubert > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:33 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: leaking fuel inside the wing From: "WurlyBird" So after a month of being grounded, mostly due to waiting on a new windshield, I finally got everything back together and went flying today. I soloed the Kitfox by the way. As I was taking the plane apart I noticed some streaking emanating from the leading edge spar. After the plane had sat in the garage for an hour I noticed a small puddle of fuel under the lower mount for the wing support. It seems that fuel is leaking inside the wing and going down hill along the front spar, toward the fuselage in flight and toward the jury strut mount while folded. There is about a gallon and a half in this tank so it could have sloshed, but there is no evidence that it came out any where near the gas tank cap. Is there any possibility that there is a problem that can be fixed with out replacing the fuel tank? It seems like the only real possibility is that there is a small leak some where near the front of the tank. Any other thoughts? Incidentally, I can not believe how absolutely awesome the KF3 handles solo with low fuel. She is a completely different animal then when almost at gross. I can see I am gonna get my ticket and then not want anyone to fly with me [Twisted Evil] -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235553#235553 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:20 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Rudder trim tab From: "WurlyBird" I am wondering if anybody has made a rudder trim tab and would like to share how they did it? I know it will only be really accurate at one airspeed and I am okay with that since I spend a lot more time at "cruise" then throttled back for a landing. I assume it is as simple as riveting a sheet of steel or aluminum to the rudder and then just experimenting with it's deflection. Any input? Did I mention I soloed the Kitfox today? I mean on this thread of course. :D -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235554#235554 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:36:56 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: leaking fuel inside the wing What kind of tank is it? The aluminum tank in my Model 2 is famous for leaking at the leading edge seam, most pronounced if the wing is folded. Sloshing with Kreem fixed it for me, although the proper fix is to replace it with a ethanol-resistant poly tank, which is on my to-do list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of WurlyBird Sent: 21 March 2009 7:14 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: leaking fuel inside the wing So after a month of being grounded, mostly due to waiting on a new windshield, I finally got everything back together and went flying today. I soloed the Kitfox by the way. As I was taking the plane apart I noticed some streaking emanating from the leading edge spar. After the plane had sat in the garage for an hour I noticed a small puddle of fuel under the lower mount for the wing support. It seems that fuel is leaking inside the wing and going down hill along the front spar, toward the fuselage in flight and toward the jury strut mount while folded. There is about a gallon and a half in this tank so it could have sloshed, but there is no evidence that it came out any where near the gas tank cap. Is there any possibility that there is a problem that can be fixed with out replacing the fuel tank? It seems like the only real possibility is that there is a small leak some where near the front of the tank. Any other thoughts? Incidentally, I can not believe how absolutely awesome the KF3 handles solo with low fuel. She is a completely different animal then when almost at gross. I can see I am gonna get my ticket and then not want anyone to fly with me [Twisted Evil] -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235553#235553 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:15 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: leaking fuel inside the wing James, Sounds like a bit of time with a wing off and sloshing with Kreem. But first you will want to carefully examine the fuel system before that chore is started to make sure it is necessary. When re-sloshing, remember to pre-rinse with acetone, keeping in mind that this process tends to produce a bit of out gassing and you will want to vent periodically. To close the filler neck while sloshing use a different cap that seals well so you won't Kreem the one you intend to fly with. Also cover and tape up all exposed surfaces on the wing so any spilling won't kill your paint job. A couple of helpers is a good idea as well. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "WurlyBird" Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: leaking fuel inside the wing > > > So after a month of being grounded, mostly due to waiting on a new > windshield, I finally got everything back together and went flying today. > I soloed the Kitfox by the way. As I was taking the plane apart I noticed > some streaking emanating from the leading edge spar. After the plane had > sat in the garage for an hour I noticed a small puddle of fuel under the > lower mount for the wing support. It seems that fuel is leaking inside > the wing and going down hill along the front spar, toward the fuselage in > flight and toward the jury strut mount while folded. There is about a > gallon and a half in this tank so it could have sloshed, but there is no > evidence that it came out any where near the gas tank cap. > > Is there any possibility that there is a problem that can be fixed with > out replacing the fuel tank? It seems like the only real possibility is > that there is a small leak some where near the front of the tank. Any > other thoughts? > > Incidentally, I can not believe how absolutely awesome the KF3 handles > solo with low fuel. She is a completely different animal then when almost > at gross. I can see I am gonna get my ticket and then not want anyone to > fly with me [Twisted Evil] > > -------- > James > Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop > 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235553#235553 > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:27 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rudder trim tab James, I did exactly as you suggest and it worked well. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "WurlyBird" Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 3:24 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Rudder trim tab > > > I am wondering if anybody has made a rudder trim tab and would like to > share how they did it? I know it will only be really accurate at one > airspeed and I am okay with that since I spend a lot more time at "cruise" > then throttled back for a landing. > > I assume it is as simple as riveting a sheet of steel or aluminum to the > rudder and then just experimenting with it's deflection. Any input? > > Did I mention I soloed the Kitfox today? I mean on this thread of course. > :D > > -------- > James > Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop > 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235554#235554 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:30 PM PST US From: "Ken Richter" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox 3 Does, anyone know of a set of kitfox four wings for sale I have a problem with my fiberglass tank and I am think of upgrading to the mod 4 wings if there are any available. Thanks Ken Richter mod 3/582 #930 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:26 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Torque values Yup, Lynn, it's a metal cockpit adjustable prop hub by NSI (CAP). The blades are all carbon fiber by Warp Drive. The bolts go through the crank hub and into the prop hub about an inch deep then the bolt heads are all safety wired on the engine side of the crank hub. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:13 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Torque values > > Hey, Deke, is it a metal prop? Or does it have a metal hub? The numbers > on those are a lot less critical (I would think) than if the bolts are > going to be "crushing" wood. Also, I noticed that you said you have > AN5-10 bolts....I can't believe the "-10" part. This would make the bolts > too short to go through almost anything, so I'm assuming that's a > typo...is it? I'm thinking that if they're that short, they're only going > through metal, so the range is probably not as critical as a wood > application. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 616.5 hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Status: flying > > > On Mar 21, 2009, at 7:34 AM, fox5flyer wrote: > >> >> Thanks, Lynn, et al. I'm surprised how hard it's been to get good hard >> data on these torque values. AC43.13 has some info--and good stuff too, >> but it doesn't go deep enough and seems to assume we all know about >> interference drag, etc. I called a local IA who couldn't definitively >> answer the question either, other than to say that he usually just picks >> a value somewhere in the middle of the spread. He also said he rarely >> bothers with a torque wrench and just goes by feel, depending on what >> he's doing. After wrenching on airplanes for 30 years, he probably has >> that "feel", but I don't trust mine. He also said that the torque >> values are only a guide and that "close is good enough" in most cases. >> I tend to agree with him for the most part, but not with my prop! I >> want that puppy exactly like it's supposed to be. :-) So, unless I >> can find some more information on this I'm not going to worry too much >> about it. >> Deke Morisse >> Mikado Michigan >> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT >> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but >> progress." >> - Joseph Joubert >> > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:12 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Proper Fix? From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Sat, March 21, 2009 3:35 pm, Bob Brennan wrote: > > What kind of tank is it? The aluminum tank in my Model 2 is famous for > leaking at the leading edge seam, most pronounced if the wing is folded. > Sloshing with Kreem fixed it for me, although the proper fix is to replace > it with a ethanol-resistant poly tank, which is on my to-do list. I think your fix is fine and the only improvement possible is to have welded the leak closed. Why do you think your fix isn't proper or is less good than replacement with a polypropylene (I assume) tank? -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. -- Winston Churchill No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session. -- Mark Twain (1866) A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. -- George Bernard Shaw In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other. -- Voltaire (1764) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:20 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rudder trim tab From: "WurlyBird" Lowell, what size tab did you use and what were it's dimensions? What is it made of? Have any pictures you could send me? Thanks a lot James -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235570#235570 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.