Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:19 AM - Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox (Lynn Matteson)
2. 04:13 AM - Re: 912 charing problem. (fox5flyer)
3. 04:33 AM - Re: Local CFI? (Larry Huntley)
4. 04:48 AM - Re: Re: leaking fuel inside the wing (Catz631@aol.com)
5. 04:49 AM - Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox (Weiss Richard)
6. 05:13 AM - Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox (Catz631@AOL.COM)
7. 05:47 AM - Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox (Catz631@aol.com)
8. 06:23 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fairings (Cudnohufsky's)
9. 07:04 AM - Re: Local CFI? (CDE2fly@AOL.COM)
10. 07:04 AM - Re: Local CFI? (CDE2fly@aol.com)
11. 09:50 AM - Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox (Lynn Matteson)
12. 09:50 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fairings (Lynn Matteson)
13. 09:54 AM - Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox (Lynn Matteson)
14. 10:20 AM - Re: Wing Strut Fairings (JC Propeller Design)
15. 11:10 AM - convert model 2 to tricycle gear (Jon Clapp)
16. 12:00 PM - Re: Wing Strut Fairings (Cudnohufsky's)
17. 01:10 PM - Re: Wing Strut Fairings (JC Propeller Design)
18. 03:25 PM - Re: Wing Strut Fairings (Lynn Matteson)
19. 03:57 PM - Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox (Pete Christensen)
20. 07:41 PM - Near disaster (Jim Feldmann)
21. 07:53 PM - Re: Near disaster (Tom Jones)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox |
Thanks for the advice, Rick...I think what really drives your message
home is the words "Clearing debris off the runway, i.e. the remaining
parts of your Fox". That'll stick in my memory from here on out.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Mar 27, 2009, at 11:14 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> I'm no expert on wake turbulence, but I've been there. It's real,
> it's dangerous, and should be given a wide berth. I've been rolled
> 90 degrees while on approach. This was from a 747 - I was in a
> CRJ-200. We were going into JFK and were 6 miles behind the 74 at
> 3000 feet, he was at 4000. The roll was quick and exhilarating. I
> know the passengers didn't like it, heck, we didn't like it! We
> also had a similar, but less exciting, experience at Atlanta behind
> a 757. Bottom line, we were at the legal distance behind the
> other aircraft and still had the encounter.
>
> Remember, the winds aloft are frequently different than those on
> the surface, all the calculations on the location of the wake based
> on the ground winds are estimates and remain suspect. The best
> defense is to wait out the max time, especially in low wind
> conditions where the wake can linger (yes, I believe it can be
> stationary on the runway for quite a while) or be blown across the
> runway at a leisurely pace. I wouldn't go early unless you're
> absolutely convinced you know the wind environment.
>
> If the other guys get impatient, that's their problem. Clearing
> debris off the runway, i.e. the remaining parts of your Fox, is a
> lot longer delay for them and will likely ruin your day. If they
> want to go, let them. You may have the basis for some good hangar
> stories as you watch the ensuing aerobatic show.
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> Rick Weiss
> N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
> SkyStar S/N 1
> Port Orange, FL
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 912 charing problem. |
That's a very good option, if you have a source for them. There are
other options also, including Aircraft Spruce, but they're pricey. Take
a look at the link below. It will help you understand how the system
works and my lead to making a good choice. The bottom line is that the
stock Ducatti regulators were very troublesome and tended to cause many
problems, especially over voltage. One thing that is important with
them is that they required a constant load to convert AC to DC. A
common replacement was the Key West regulator, but you'll have to search
around to find who sells it. Aircraft Spruce used to sell it, but I
don't see it now. Might have changed the name.
http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/Part%2049%20-%204%20page.pdf
Good luck.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Christensen
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 charing problem.
My research found some writings by Peter Sherman regarding using Honda
Motorcycle rectifier/regulators from the Honda CB250/400 or CX500 in his
Ducati mc.
Look here:
http://www.geocities.com/750paso/paso/voltageregulator.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Catz631@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912 charing problem.
Pete, This probably won't work but it is cheap to try. I was having
an overvoltage problem with mine so I removed the voltage regulator and
cleaned all the connections. I did have a small amount of corrosion.
That did it and it is working fine now.
Also, I think some of the guys are using voltage regulators other
than the original Ducatti units. I think they are cheaper and if they
work OK I would be interested myself .
Dick Maddux
Fox4
912
Pensacola,Fl
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Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 3
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CDE2,
Does this Joe Rizzo own and fly a piper Vagabond? Larry Huntley
----- Original Message -----
From: CDE2fly@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Local CFI?
Andrew - try Joe Rizzo based at BGM. I've flown with him and been
very satisfied.
Joe Rizzo Airport Name: Greater Binghamton Regional (added
2/24/2005 8:06:14 PM)
Binghamton, New York, USA Identifier: KBGM
We have a 1967 7ECA Citabria in our flight school, established
in 1981. We welcome pilots who want to add the tailwheel endorsement or
get their pilot training in a conventional gear airplane. See our
website at aero-techniques.com.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for under $10.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
03/27/09 07:13:00
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: leaking fuel inside the wing |
Tite Seal also works great for that type of sealing. I used to use Fuel Lube
in my Pacer fuel valve to lube the action. I supose it would also work as a
sealant.
Dick Maddux
Pensacola,Fl
**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
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| Subject: | Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox |
Lynn,
Those same words stuck with me. A friend of mine is developing a
light jet kit and during flight test, the aircraft was cleared for
takeoff with the usual admonition of 'caution wake turbulence'. What
the test pilot didn't know was a large (compared to his aircraft) DH-8
had taken off about 1 minute prior, yet the tower didn't hold him the
required time. We've all been there. The winds were light and the
light jet hit the wake, rolled 90 left, knife-edged into the runway
and continued down the runway after cartwheeling a few times. The
only parts remaining were the cabin and engine. The two guys inside
opened the door and walked out unharmed. My buddy had decided early
on to build a strong composite cabin, and he was successful. It took
hours to clear the debris. BTW - the cabin was on display at Oshkosh
a couple of months later. The inside was like new, but the bottom was
scrapped up pretty good. The pilot and engineer were at the show
talking about the encounter.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Mar 28, 2009, at 6:17 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> Thanks for the advice, Rick...I think what really drives your
> message home is the words "Clearing debris off the runway, i.e. the
> remaining parts of your Fox". That'll stick in my memory from here
> on out.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2009, at 11:14 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:
>
>> Lynn,
>>
>> I'm no expert on wake turbulence, but I've been there. It's real,
>> it's dangerous, and should be given a wide berth. I've been rolled
>> 90 degrees while on approach. This was from a 747 - I was in a
>> CRJ-200. We were going into JFK and were 6 miles behind the 74 at
>> 3000 feet, he was at 4000. The roll was quick and exhilarating. I
>> know the passengers didn't like it, heck, we didn't like it! We
>> also had a similar, but less exciting, experience at Atlanta behind
>> a 757. Bottom line, we were at the legal distance behind the
>> other aircraft and still had the encounter.
>>
>> Remember, the winds aloft are frequently different than those on
>> the surface, all the calculations on the location of the wake based
>> on the ground winds are estimates and remain suspect. The best
>> defense is to wait out the max time, especially in low wind
>> conditions where the wake can linger (yes, I believe it can be
>> stationary on the runway for quite a while) or be blown across the
>> runway at a leisurely pace. I wouldn't go early unless you're
>> absolutely convinced you know the wind environment.
>>
>> If the other guys get impatient, that's their problem. Clearing
>> debris off the runway, i.e. the remaining parts of your Fox, is a
>> lot longer delay for them and will likely ruin your day. If they
>> want to go, let them. You may have the basis for some good hangar
>> stories as you watch the ensuing aerobatic show.
>>
>> Just my two cents.
>>
>> Rick Weiss
>> N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
>> SkyStar S/N 1
>> Port Orange, FL
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox |
Lynn,
I was holding short one time in a B737at Atlanta and saw a small aircraft
almost rolled into a ball when he taxied onto a runway for takeoff when just
vacated by an airliner. I am sure some seats needed cleaning. It is good no
damage occured to your aircraft and realistically the time you waited should
have been enough but the Kitfox is such a light aircraft.( a kite with wheels)
I have timed my departure delay for one minute on my watch before
departing behind a jumbo jet (irritating the controller sometimes as it is rather
long) and still had a lot of wake vortices from the departing aircraft to deal
with. A few times full aileron and appropriate rudder were called for.
Theoretically, the vortices along the ground are the size of the aircraft wingspan
and
growing.
Bet you don't do that again!
Dick Maddux
Fox 4
Pensacola,Fl
**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox |
Lynn,
You did exactly what you should have done. The only thing you could have
done better is to wait longer. You absolutely should not take off sooner as you
have a very good chance of going into the strongest engine thrust and
associated turbulence (this stuff stays on the runway for a while)
Every year, before I retired, we had to attend training. Part of that
training was wind shear and wake turbulence avoidance. They showed films of various
jet aircraft with smoke generators at the wing tips and you could watch the
pattern. I believe the flow was counter clockwise as the flow tends to flow
toward the wing at the tips. The prevailing wind was a big factor as to were the
dual vortices would go. They could stay on the runway or blow to either side.
Seeing it visually, with the smoke, really helped. In any case the idea during
take off was to climb above the departing aircraft's climb path if you could,
or wait longer.
Under different wind conditions you might not have experienced a problem.
Waiting longer is always the best option. Using a smaller airport with smaller
airplanes is even better!
Santa Anna, Ca is a prime example of mixing big jets and general aviation
aircraft. It was always a challenge landing there in an airliner (slam dunk to
a short runway) and you really had to watch your engine thrust around the
multiple small aircraft. I always saw "the little guys" (I am now one) pull to
the
side and wait anytime the heavier aircraft departed. They learned quick.
Thrust and wing tip vortices will eat your lunch!
Sorry about the long dissertation but I guess early in the morning and too
much coffee does it. It's great to be retired! Sure am happy I fly for fun.
Dick Maddux
Fox 4
Pensacola,Fl
**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Wing Strut Fairings |
Mike,
Thanks for the reply, you are probably correct that they are in by
design since extrusion processes have evolved to the point where the
outcome will be exact to the design. I guess in my thinking I have never
seen vortex generators as continual lines on a surface especially strut
fairings, all the strut fairings I have seen on aircraft are smooth. I
suppose if I was building a Lancair I would kick myself but since I am
building a Kitfox I=99m not too alarmed over my decision. Offhand
do you know what the difference in drag coefficient is with and without
the vortex generators on the struts? I would imagine the manufacturer
would have developed some numbers before investing in the dies.
Lloyd
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
skyflyte@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
Those "extrusion lines" are actually vortex generators which were part
of the design to reduce drag. Eliminating them increases DRAG!!
Mike
490MC
M II 582
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:05:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
I have a Model IV, with the same fairings that you describe, but I
left the "extrusion lines" as is, covered them, and the sheet
aluminum at the lower end, with fabric and let it go at that.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Mar 27, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:
> <7suds@chartermi.net>
>
> All,
> The wing struts for my Model 5 have the PVC fairings, the end that
> attaches
> to the fuselage has the aft fairing squared off and covered with
> fabric and
> then the gap between them covered with sheet aluminum. I decided I
> wanted to
> block out all the extrusion lines in the PVC fairings so I removed the
> fabric and the aluminum and found all the gaps in that area filled
> with
> bondo, which I have removed. Is the bondo thing normal? I do not
> have the
> instructions for the install of the struts so I was wondering what
> others
> have done and what others have seen for a finished weight for a
> strut with
> the PVC fairings? What have other used for fairings besides the PVC?
>
> Lloyd C
> UP Mi.
> Mod 5 912ul
> IVO IFA
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 8:05 PM
>
>
> - List Contribution Web Site -
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Kitfox-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
Checked by AVG.
3/26/2009 8:05 PM
Checked by AVG.
3/27/2009 6:51 PM
Message 9
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**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under
$10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002)
Message 10
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As far as I know, just the Citabria.
**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under
$10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox |
When I once took off into a known thickness of fog, and got myself in
"no visibility" conditions, I wrote in the logbook "Don't do this
again".....I'll be making another such entry after yesterdays'
encounter. Thanks for the report, Dick.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:12 AM, Catz631@aol.com wrote:
> Lynn,
> I was holding short one time in a B737at Atlanta and saw a small
> aircraft almost rolled into a ball when he taxied onto a runway
> for takeoff when just vacated by an airliner. I am sure some seats
> needed cleaning. It is good no damage occured to your aircraft
> and realistically the time you waited should have been enough but
> the Kitfox is such a light aircraft.( a kite with wheels)
> I have timed my departure delay for one minute on my watch
> before departing behind a jumbo jet (irritating the controller
> sometimes as it is rather long) and still had a lot of wake
> vortices from the departing aircraft to deal with. A few times full
> aileron and appropriate rudder were called for. Theoretically, the
> vortices along the ground are the size of the aircraft wingspan and
> growing.
> Bet you don't do that again!
> Dick Maddux
> Fox 4
> Pensacola,Fl
>
> Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
> less. _-
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fairings |
Perhaps John McBean can shed some light on these "vortex generating"
ridges? Why don't we see this same design on wings, wheelpants, etc?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On Mar 28, 2009, at 9:23 AM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Thanks for the reply, you are probably correct that they are in by
> design since extrusion processes have evolved to the point where
> the outcome will be exact to the design. I guess in my thinking I
> have never seen vortex generators as continual lines on a surface
> especially strut fairings, all the strut fairings I have seen on
> aircraft are smooth. I suppose if I was building a Lancair I would
> kick myself but since I am building a Kitfox Im not too alarmed
> over my decision. Offhand do you know what the difference in drag
> coefficient is with and without the vortex generators on the
> struts? I would imagine the manufacturer would have developed some
> numbers before investing in the dies.
>
>
> Lloyd
>
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of skyflyte@comcast.net
> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>
>
> Those "extrusion lines" are actually vortex generators which were
> part of the design to reduce drag. Eliminating them increases DRAG!!
>
> Mike
>
> 490MC
>
> M II 582
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:05:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>
>
> I have a Model IV, with the same fairings that you describe, but I
> left the "extrusion lines" as is, covered them, and the sheet
> aluminum at the lower end, with fabric and let it go at that.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:
>
> > <7suds@chartermi.net>
> >
> > All,
> > The wing struts for my Model 5 have the PVC fairings, the end that
> > attaches
> > to the fuselage has the aft fairing squared off and covered with
> > fabric and
> > then the gap between them covered with sheet aluminum. I decided I
> > wanted to
> > block out all the extrusion lines in the PVC fairings so I
> removed the
> > fabric and the aluminum and found all the gaps in that area filled
> > with
> > bondo, which I have removed. Is the bondo thing normal? I do not
> > have the
> > instructions for the install of the struts so I was wondering what
> > others
> > have done and what others have seen for a finished weight for a
> > strut with
> > the PVC fairings? What have other used for fairings besides the
> PVC?
> >
> > Lloyd C
> > UP Mi.
> > Mod 5 912ul
> > IVO IFA
> >
> > Checked by AVG.
> > 8:05 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > - List Contribution Web Site -
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://
> forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 3/26/2009 8:05 PM
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 3/27/2009 6:51 PM
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ===========================================================
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox |
I hope I can always end a tale with "at the show talking about the
encounter". Of course, better yet would be "no problems on today's
flight" !
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On Mar 28, 2009, at 7:49 AM, Weiss Richard wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> Those same words stuck with me. A friend of mine is developing a
> light jet kit and during flight test, the aircraft was cleared for
> takeoff with the usual admonition of 'caution wake turbulence'.
> What the test pilot didn't know was a large (compared to his
> aircraft) DH-8 had taken off about 1 minute prior, yet the tower
> didn't hold him the required time. We've all been there. The
> winds were light and the light jet hit the wake, rolled 90 left,
> knife-edged into the runway and continued down the runway after
> cartwheeling a few times. The only parts remaining were the cabin
> and engine. The two guys inside opened the door and walked out
> unharmed. My buddy had decided early on to build a strong
> composite cabin, and he was successful. It took hours to clear the
> debris. BTW - the cabin was on display at Oshkosh a couple of
> months later. The inside was like new, but the bottom was scrapped
> up pretty good. The pilot and engineer were at the show talking
> about the encounter.
>
> Rick Weiss
> N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
> SkyStar S/N 1
> Port Orange, FL
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2009, at 6:17 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks for the advice, Rick...I think what really drives your
>> message home is the words "Clearing debris off the runway, i.e.
>> the remaining parts of your Fox". That'll stick in my memory from
>> here on out.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> Status: flying
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 27, 2009, at 11:14 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:
>>
>>> Lynn,
>>>
>>> I'm no expert on wake turbulence, but I've been there. It's
>>> real, it's dangerous, and should be given a wide berth. I've
>>> been rolled 90 degrees while on approach. This was from a 747 -
>>> I was in a CRJ-200. We were going into JFK and were 6 miles
>>> behind the 74 at 3000 feet, he was at 4000. The roll was quick
>>> and exhilarating. I know the passengers didn't like it, heck, we
>>> didn't like it! We also had a similar, but less exciting,
>>> experience at Atlanta behind a 757. Bottom line, we were at the
>>> legal distance behind the other aircraft and still had the
>>> encounter.
>>>
>>> Remember, the winds aloft are frequently different than those on
>>> the surface, all the calculations on the location of the wake
>>> based on the ground winds are estimates and remain suspect. The
>>> best defense is to wait out the max time, especially in low wind
>>> conditions where the wake can linger (yes, I believe it can be
>>> stationary on the runway for quite a while) or be blown across
>>> the runway at a leisurely pace. I wouldn't go early unless
>>> you're absolutely convinced you know the wind environment.
>>>
>>> If the other guys get impatient, that's their problem. Clearing
>>> debris off the runway, i.e. the remaining parts of your Fox, is a
>>> lot longer delay for them and will likely ruin your day. If they
>>> want to go, let them. You may have the basis for some good
>>> hangar stories as you watch the ensuing aerobatic show.
>>>
>>> Just my two cents.
>>>
>>> Rick Weiss
>>> N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
>>> SkyStar S/N 1
>>> httpp;--> http://forums.matronics.comsp; - List
>>> Contributionsp;  href="http://
>>> www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
>>> cont===============
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fairings |
because wings ... are not under critical on Re Nr. as short chord wingstruts
are.
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>
> Perhaps John McBean can shed some light on these "vortex generating"
> ridges? Why don't we see this same design on wings, wheelpants, etc?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
> do not archive
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2009, at 9:23 AM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply, you are probably correct that they are in by
>> design since extrusion processes have evolved to the point where the
>> outcome will be exact to the design. I guess in my thinking I have never
>> seen vortex generators as continual lines on a surface especially strut
>> fairings, all the strut fairings I have seen on aircraft are smooth. I
>> suppose if I was building a Lancair I would kick myself but since I am
>> building a Kitfox Im not too alarmed over my decision. Offhand do you
>> know what the difference in drag coefficient is with and without the
>> vortex generators on the struts? I would imagine the manufacturer would
>> have developed some numbers before investing in the dies.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lloyd
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
>> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of skyflyte@comcast.net
>> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:37 PM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>>
>>
>>
>> Those "extrusion lines" are actually vortex generators which were part
>> of the design to reduce drag. Eliminating them increases DRAG!!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> 490MC
>>
>> M II 582
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:05:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>>
>>
>> I have a Model IV, with the same fairings that you describe, but I
>> left the "extrusion lines" as is, covered them, and the sheet
>> aluminum at the lower end, with fabric and let it go at that.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> Status: flying
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 27, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:
>>
>> > <7suds@chartermi.net>
>> >
>> > All,
>> > The wing struts for my Model 5 have the PVC fairings, the end that
>> > attaches
>> > to the fuselage has the aft fairing squared off and covered with
>> > fabric and
>> > then the gap between them covered with sheet aluminum. I decided I
>> > wanted to
>> > block out all the extrusion lines in the PVC fairings so I
>> removed the
>> > fabric and the aluminum and found all the gaps in that area filled
>> > with
>> > bondo, which I have removed. Is the bondo thing normal? I do not
>> > have the
>> > instructions for the install of the struts so I was wondering what
>> > others
>> > have done and what others have seen for a finished weight for a
>> > strut with
>> > the PVC fairings? What have other used for fairings besides the
>> PVC?
>> >
>> > Lloyd C
>> > UP Mi.
>> > Mod 5 912ul
>> > IVO IFA
>> >
>> > Checked by AVG.
>> > 8:05 PM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > - List Contribution Web Site -
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://
>> forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 3/26/2009 8:05 PM
>>
>>
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 3/27/2009 6:51 PM
>>
>> ============================================================ _-
>> ============================================================ _-
>> contribution_-
>> ===========================================================
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 3972 (20090328) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | convert model 2 to tricycle gear |
does anyone have any info on converting a model 2 to tricycle gear using
either factory nose gear or home made?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Wing Strut Fairings |
Jan,
Excuse my ignorance but what does "critical on Re Nr. " mean?
Lloyd
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JC Propeller
Design
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
<propellerdesign@tele2.se>
because wings ... are not under critical on Re Nr. as short chord wingstruts
are.
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>
> Perhaps John McBean can shed some light on these "vortex generating"
> ridges? Why don't we see this same design on wings, wheelpants, etc?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
> do not archive
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2009, at 9:23 AM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply, you are probably correct that they are in by
>> design since extrusion processes have evolved to the point where the
>> outcome will be exact to the design. I guess in my thinking I have never
>> seen vortex generators as continual lines on a surface especially strut
>> fairings, all the strut fairings I have seen on aircraft are smooth. I
>> suppose if I was building a Lancair I would kick myself but since I am
>> building a Kitfox Im not too alarmed over my decision. Offhand do you
>> know what the difference in drag coefficient is with and without the
>> vortex generators on the struts? I would imagine the manufacturer would
>> have developed some numbers before investing in the dies.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lloyd
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
>> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of skyflyte@comcast.net
>> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:37 PM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>>
>>
>>
>> Those "extrusion lines" are actually vortex generators which were part
>> of the design to reduce drag. Eliminating them increases DRAG!!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> 490MC
>>
>> M II 582
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:05:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>>
>>
>> I have a Model IV, with the same fairings that you describe, but I
>> left the "extrusion lines" as is, covered them, and the sheet
>> aluminum at the lower end, with fabric and let it go at that.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> Status: flying
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 27, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:
>>
>> > <7suds@chartermi.net>
>> >
>> > All,
>> > The wing struts for my Model 5 have the PVC fairings, the end that
>> > attaches
>> > to the fuselage has the aft fairing squared off and covered with
>> > fabric and
>> > then the gap between them covered with sheet aluminum. I decided I
>> > wanted to
>> > block out all the extrusion lines in the PVC fairings so I
>> removed the
>> > fabric and the aluminum and found all the gaps in that area filled
>> > with
>> > bondo, which I have removed. Is the bondo thing normal? I do not
>> > have the
>> > instructions for the install of the struts so I was wondering what
>> > others
>> > have done and what others have seen for a finished weight for a
>> > strut with
>> > the PVC fairings? What have other used for fairings besides the
>> PVC?
>> >
>> > Lloyd C
>> > UP Mi.
>> > Mod 5 912ul
>> > IVO IFA
>> >
>> > Checked by AVG.
>> > 8:05 PM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > - List Contribution Web Site -
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://
>> forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 3/26/2009 8:05 PM
>>
>>
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 3/27/2009 6:51 PM
>>
>> ============================================================ _-
>> ============================================================ _-
>> contribution_-
>> ===========================================================
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 3972 (20090328) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>
>
Checked by AVG.
6:51 PM
Checked by AVG.
6:51 PM
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fairings |
it is the critical number of Reynolds number, sorry.
if it is under the critical number the drag increase, it can be helped with
some sort of VG's, look at the golf ball, the "dimples" make the air to
become turbulent near the surface, (laminar layer/turbulent layer) the
turbulent layer hold more energy that can follow the curved surface better
to the back side, making the "wake" smaller, same on wing struts, if it is
poorly shaped or to short/to fat it will help if laminar layer is tripped to
turbulent.
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>
> Jan,
> Excuse my ignorance but what does "critical on Re Nr. " mean?
>
> Lloyd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JC Propeller
> Design
> Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 12:15 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>
> <propellerdesign@tele2.se>
>
> because wings ... are not under critical on Re Nr. as short chord
> wingstruts
>
> are.
>
> Jan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 5:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>
>
>>
>> Perhaps John McBean can shed some light on these "vortex generating"
>> ridges? Why don't we see this same design on wings, wheelpants, etc?
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> Status: flying
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2009, at 9:23 AM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the reply, you are probably correct that they are in by
>>> design since extrusion processes have evolved to the point where the
>>> outcome will be exact to the design. I guess in my thinking I have
>>> never
>
>>> seen vortex generators as continual lines on a surface especially strut
>>> fairings, all the strut fairings I have seen on aircraft are smooth. I
>>> suppose if I was building a Lancair I would kick myself but since I am
>>> building a Kitfox Im not too alarmed over my decision. Offhand do you
>>> know what the difference in drag coefficient is with and without the
>>> vortex generators on the struts? I would imagine the manufacturer would
>>> have developed some numbers before investing in the dies.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lloyd
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
>>> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of skyflyte@comcast.net
>>> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:37 PM
>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Those "extrusion lines" are actually vortex generators which were part
>>> of the design to reduce drag. Eliminating them increases DRAG!!
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> 490MC
>>>
>>> M II 582
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:05:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a Model IV, with the same fairings that you describe, but I
>>> left the "extrusion lines" as is, covered them, and the sheet
>>> aluminum at the lower end, with fabric and let it go at that.
>>>
>>> Lynn Matteson
>>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
>>> Sensenich 62x46
>>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>>> Status: flying
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 27, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:
>>>
>>> > <7suds@chartermi.net>
>>> >
>>> > All,
>>> > The wing struts for my Model 5 have the PVC fairings, the end that
>>> > attaches
>>> > to the fuselage has the aft fairing squared off and covered with
>>> > fabric and
>>> > then the gap between them covered with sheet aluminum. I decided I
>>> > wanted to
>>> > block out all the extrusion lines in the PVC fairings so I
>>> removed the
>>> > fabric and the aluminum and found all the gaps in that area filled
>>> > with
>>> > bondo, which I have removed. Is the bondo thing normal? I do not
>>> > have the
>>> > instructions for the install of the struts so I was wondering what
>>> > others
>>> > have done and what others have seen for a finished weight for a
>>> > strut with
>>> > the PVC fairings? What have other used for fairings besides the
>>> PVC?
>>> >
>>> > Lloyd C
>>> > UP Mi.
>>> > Mod 5 912ul
>>> > IVO IFA
>>> >
>>> > Checked by AVG.
>>> > 8:05 PM
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > - List Contribution Web Site -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://
>>> forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>>
>>> Checked by AVG.
>>> 3/26/2009 8:05 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> Checked by AVG.
>>> 3/27/2009 6:51 PM
>>>
>>> ============================================================ _-
>>> ============================================================ _-
>>> contribution_-
>>> ===========================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 3972 (20090328) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 6:51 PM
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 6:51 PM
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 3972 (20090328) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Strut Fairings |
So I did good to leave the ridges as is, then, on mine? Sounds like
it, and thanks for the explanation, Jan.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On Mar 28, 2009, at 4:08 PM, JC Propeller Design wrote:
> <propellerdesign@tele2.se>
>
> it is the critical number of Reynolds number, sorry.
>
> if it is under the critical number the drag increase, it can be
> helped with some sort of VG's, look at the golf ball, the "dimples"
> make the air to become turbulent near the surface, (laminar layer/
> turbulent layer) the turbulent layer hold more energy that can
> follow the curved surface better to the back side, making the
> "wake" smaller, same on wing struts, if it is poorly shaped or to
> short/to fat it will help if laminar layer is tripped to turbulent.
>
> Jan
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cudnohufsky's"
> <7suds@Chartermi.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 7:52 PM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wing Strut Fairings
>
>
>> <7suds@chartermi.net>
>>
>> Jan,
>> Excuse my ignorance but what does "critical on Re Nr. " mean?
>>
>> Lloyd
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox |
Even wake turulence behind small planes can get you upset in a light
sport. I was with an instructor getting checked out in a Sky Ranger and
landing behind a T-34 single engined navy trainer, not really that
close. The Sky Ranger banked what seemed like 60 degrees. We were
100'+ on final but recovered ok.
Pete
Message 20
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|
I had an engine failure on takeoff today. Fortunately it was a long runway and
it happened at 10 feet altitude. No injuries, no damage, and no idea why it
happened.
Actually, the engine (Rotax 912 ULS) did not stop. It was running smoothly during
taxi and warm up. Mag check was fine. I held short for 5 minutes or so for
incoming traffic, running the engine from 2500 to 4000 for short periods.
No problems. On takeoff, the engine pulled cleanly to 5000+ for the 5 or 6 seconds
it took to break ground, then suddenly started running very rough and dropped
to 2500 rpm or so. I immediately pulled the throttle to idle and landed.
While taxiing back to the hanger it ran fine, I tried full throttle again a couple
of times and it ran perfectly. So what I have is an intermittent or one time
problem that could be deadly.
I don't think it was ignition related, because if it was a failure of one "mag"
it would have run much better than it did, and if both failed, it wouldn't have
run at all. That leaves fuel or mechanical.
The carbs have recently been rebuilt. After I calmed down, I checked the float
bowls, they are clean, the gascolator is clean and the fuel pump is putting out
4.5 psi., right on spec. Fuel is flowing freely through all of the inline
filters and the header tank is full. I did recently drain all of the fuel out
of the airplane to fix a leak in the header tank. Then I simply refilled the
tanks from the top. Could there have been air in the fuel line between the header
tank and the gascolater? The engine had been run for half an hour or so
since then, but mostly at low throttle.
I have checked the throttle linkages also. No problem there. The plugs look good
too, but my runups on taxi back would have obscured the evidence anyway.
My A&E suggested that it could be sticky valve.
Has anyone experienced a similar problem? Any thoughts on what to look for? I'm
very hesitant to fly it again until I know what caused the problem
--------
Jim Feldmann, 3rd owner
1994 Kitfox IV Speedster / 912
Working on my Sport Pilot Certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236597#236597
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Near disaster |
> Actually, the engine (Rotax 912 ULS) did not stop. It was running smoothly during
taxi and warm up. Mag check was fine. I held short for 5 minutes or so for
incoming traffic, running the engine from 2500 to 4000 for short periods. No
problems. On takeoff, the engine pulled cleanly to 5000+ for the 5 or 6 seconds
it took to break ground, then suddenly started running very rough and dropped
to 2500 rpm or so. I immediately pulled the throttle to idle and landed.
A problem soon after maintenance often has some relation to the maintenance. Were
fuel lines to the header tank removed and/or replaced?
How about the rest of the fuel lines?
Any chance the fuel had a slug of water in it?
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236599#236599
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