Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:39 AM - Re: Re: Great Oil Debate (Noel Loveys)
2. 07:56 AM - Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Joe & Jan Connell)
3. 08:11 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (akflyer)
4. 08:29 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Bob Brennan)
5. 08:39 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
6. 08:49 AM - Re: Great Oil Debate (JetPilot)
7. 08:54 AM - Re: fuel tank grounding (JetPilot)
8. 08:58 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (fox5flyer)
9. 09:09 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Marco Menezes)
10. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Bob Brennan)
11. 09:24 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Aerobatics@aol.com)
12. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Bob Brennan)
13. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Lynn Matteson)
14. 10:39 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (akflyer)
15. 10:39 AM - Re: Great Oil Debate (dave)
16. 10:42 AM - Re: Great Oil Debate (dave)
17. 10:54 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (dave)
18. 11:06 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Lynn Matteson)
19. 11:07 AM - Inverted Carbs, was: Great Oil Debate (Guy Buchanan)
20. 11:07 AM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Guy Buchanan)
21. 11:18 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Guy Buchanan)
22. 11:20 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (akflyer)
23. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Clint Bazzill)
24. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Lynn Matteson)
25. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Bob Brennan)
26. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Lynn Matteson)
27. 11:54 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
28. 12:15 PM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (akflyer)
29. 12:52 PM - Re: Inverted Carbs, was: Great Oil Debate (dave)
30. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Bob Brennan)
31. 02:42 PM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (akflyer)
32. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Weiss Richard)
33. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Noel Loveys)
34. 05:21 PM - Fw: Gasoline - no ethanol (Larry Huntley)
35. 06:34 PM - Re: fuel tank grounding (Tom Jones)
36. 11:56 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Michael Gibbs)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Great Oil Debate |
Dave:
Will the Bing carbs work in negative G?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:24 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Great Oil Debate
Ryan,
I have mentioned in the past posts about Shell Advance oil we have available
her in Canada. As well as Csstrol super 2 stroke oil that you might find at
Walmart. ? Read the labels, you want API- TC rating. It can be TCW3 rated
as well at API.tc but not just TCW3 as that is outboard oil and not to be
used. You see outboard engines have a constant supply of water at ? 32 F to
90F all the time. Heck our thermostats do not even open untill 135F . 582s
like 160 to 176 F.
Regardless , it remains the same API-TC. I don;t see Amsoil there . I can
only tell you that I have no issues with what I use nor any of my locals.
Forget about the 100 to 1 stuff. Oil injection is the leanest you want to
go. It is automatic. If you doing aerobatics and doing neg Gs then i
would consider pre mix.
Hope this helps,
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238755#238755
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| Subject: | Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
Gentlemen,
I've been flying my Kitfox-II for about 12 years. An item in the May
issue of "Flying" magazine is prompting this note. One paragraph in an
article called "Aftermath" by Pete Garrison states the following:
"I have very limited experience in LSAs, but one very popular model that
I have flown had surprising flight characteristics, including a rudder
so whimsical that it would remain at either stop, fully deflected, while
the pilot's feet were flat on the floor and the airplane flew merrily
along in a gigantic sideslip. This is the kind of behavior that one
associates with the First World War, not the 21st century."
My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on the
floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the wings a
bit. If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder is fully
deflected. It's as if the short fuselage and the small vertical
stabilizer are insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. If I
remember, the Model-III and above have a much larger vertical stabilizer
(with an airfoil) and rudder assembly. The Kitfox has long wings
relative to fuselage.
Is anyone else experiencing this condition? I'm thinking of adding some
sort of centering springs to keep the rudder centered in straight and
level flight. I've even toyed with the idea of replacing the rudder
with a larger later model...
Joe Connell
Kitfox-II N62JK
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
The "very strong adverse yaw" comes from the flaperon mixer design. While a larger
vertical stab will help the issue, the real bottom line is the flaperons
travel 2X more down than they do up. The down flaperon creates more drag and
pull you to that side ( you roll right and the nose goes to the left). New mixers
mods, will give you 2X more up than down and the majority of the adverse
yaw goes away.
When setting my large models up for competition, it takes atleast 35 or 40 flights
to get all the bad habits mixed out of the plane. One of the biggest issues
is getting aileron travel dialed in so you perfectly axial rolls. This generally
ends up have 2 to 2.5 times more up travel than down.
You can get the model IV mixer system from KF and retro it to your plane, but if
you have been flying it this way for 12 years I think you have a handle on it.
Personally I think it makes you a better pilot because it forces you to use your
feet..... alot.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238909#238909
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| Subject: | Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
Joe - my Model 2 also exhibits the same characteristics, as I believe all
un-modified Model 2's do.
>From the Kitfox website at http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/Model%20III.htm:
"The Model 3 was the first major attempt to aggressively deal with the yaw
control issue. It should be remembered that we are not talking about yaw
instability, but a neutral yaw condition. In other words, it was desired to
have the airplane return to straight flight after pressing a rudder without
having to move it back with your feet. Much of this objective was achieved
by increasing the size of the vertical fin."
Bottom line is - there's no cruise control on a Model 2, you have to fly it
with your feet on the rudders at all times. Being a Model 2 owner I'd like
to cite some positive benefit like "makes you a better pilot" but really it
was just an evolving design and as the Models evolved certain things were
changed. Come to think of it - when I flew Pipers I used to think a Cessna
was a difficult plane to fly, now after flying the Kitfox the Cessna is like
driving a car! And just as slow...
As we say in the Engineering World - it's not a flaw, it's and undiscovered
feature. ;-)
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe & Jan
Connell
Sent: 13 April 2009 10:55 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior
Gentlemen,
I've been flying my Kitfox-II for about 12 years. An item in the May issue
of "Flying" magazine is prompting this note. One paragraph in an article
called "Aftermath" by Pete Garrison states the following:
"I have very limited experience in LSAs, but one very popular model that I
have flown had surprising flight characteristics, including a rudder so
whimsical that it would remain at either stop, fully deflected, while the
pilot's feet were flat on the floor and the airplane flew merrily along in a
gigantic sideslip. This is the kind of behavior that one associates with the
First World War, not the 21st century."
My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on the
floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the wings a bit.
If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder is fully deflected.
It's as if the short fuselage and the small vertical stabilizer are
insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. If I remember, the
Model-III and above have a much larger vertical stabilizer (with an airfoil)
and rudder assembly. The Kitfox has long wings relative to fuselage.
Is anyone else experiencing this condition? I'm thinking of adding some
sort of centering springs to keep the rudder centered in straight and level
flight. I've even toyed with the idea of replacing the rudder with a larger
later model...
Joe Connell
Kitfox-II N62JK
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
why fly with your feet on the floor? they have built-in springs that can develop
memory of what feels right. Put them on the rudder pedals and use them.
John Kerr
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe & Jan Connell
Sent: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:55:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior
Gentlemen,
I've been flying my Kitfox-II for about 12 years.
An item in the May issue of "Flying" magazine is prompting this note. One
paragraph in an article called "Aftermath" by Pete Garrison states the
following:
"I have very limited experience in LSAs, but one very popular
model that I have flown had surprising flight characteristics, including a
rudder so whimsical that it would remain at either stop, fully deflected, while
the pilot's feet were flat on the floor and the airplane flew merrily along in
a
gigantic sideslip. This is the kind of behavior that one associates with the
First World War, not the 21st century."
My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on the
floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the wings a
bit. If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder is fully
deflected. It's as if the short fuselage and the small vertical stabilizer
are insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. If I remember, the
Model-III and above have a much larger vertical stabilizer (with an
airfoil) and rudder assembly. The Kitfox has long wings relative to
fuselage.
Is anyone else experiencing this condition? I'm thinking of adding
some sort of centering springs to keep the rudder centered in straight and level
flight. I've even toyed with the idea of replacing the rudder with a
larger later model...
Joe Connell
Kitfox-II N62JK
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Great Oil Debate |
rawheels wrote:
> Are the BPM XP-S/XPS Synthetic and Mineral oils compatible with each other?
Meaning, could you run the synthetic during the main flying season to capitalize
on it's properties, and then start using the mineral oil just before the "slow"
season to help with corrosion?
Here on a forum its hard to get a near unanimous consensus on anything, but your
last thread got it with many many posts from experienced people saying what
you were proposing was a really bad and dangerous idea... There was also a
lot of good information in that thread that Amsoil 2 cycle oil is not a good choice
in 2 cycle engines. You still seem to not understand the fact that not
all synthetics are created equal, and you are still operating under the assumption
that amsoil " Synthetic " 2 cycle oil is going to have better running properties
than non synthetic 2 cycle oil. Its not just corrosion protection that
is the problem with Amsoil 2 cycle, there is a lot more to it than that.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238917#238917
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tank grounding |
icubob(at)gmail.com wrote:
> hi all,
> a friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some testing had showed
on his plane the anodized coating of fittings had prevented the metal fuel
lines from completing the ground to a tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding
wires
On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so grounding the
outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it would take a wire or piece
of metal going into the fuel tank to make an effective ground. Can you elaborate
a little more on the grounding setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ?
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238918#238918
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
Since you've been flying yours for 12 years I'd be the last one to try
to tell you how to fly it because you already know that, and very well.
What you have is typical adverse yaw which is typical of the early
Foxes. Snakeman explained it very well. Mine did the same thing, but
after a few flights it became second nature and wasn't a problem. There
is something you can do about it, but is it worth it?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe & Jan Connell
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 10:55 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior
Gentlemen,
I've been flying my Kitfox-II for about 12 years. An item in the May
issue of "Flying" magazine is prompting this note. One paragraph in an
article called "Aftermath" by Pete Garrison states the following:
"I have very limited experience in LSAs, but one very popular model
that I have flown had surprising flight characteristics, including a
rudder so whimsical that it would remain at either stop, fully
deflected, while the pilot's feet were flat on the floor and the
airplane flew merrily along in a gigantic sideslip. This is the kind of
behavior that one associates with the First World War, not the 21st
century."
My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on the
floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the wings a
bit. If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder is fully
deflected. It's as if the short fuselage and the small vertical
stabilizer are insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. If I
remember, the Model-III and above have a much larger vertical stabilizer
(with an airfoil) and rudder assembly. The Kitfox has long wings
relative to fuselage.
Is anyone else experiencing this condition? I'm thinking of adding
some sort of centering springs to keep the rudder centered in straight
and level flight. I've even toyed with the idea of replacing the rudder
with a larger later model...
Joe Connell
Kitfox-II N62JK
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
As a practical matter, it means keeping your feet on the pedals and-cross
-controlling-a tad-to keep the ball centered in a turn. It's a quirk bu
t you quickly get used to it. Personally, I don't think it needs fixing nor
would I go so far as to say this benign characteristic makes the Model II
a throwback to WW1.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
--- On Mon, 4/13/09, akflyer <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: akflyer <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior
The "very strong adverse yaw" comes from the flaperon mixer design.- Whil
e a larger vertical stab will help the issue, the real bottom line is the f
laperons travel 2X more down than they do up.- The down flaperon creates
more drag and pull you to that side ( you roll right and the nose goes to t
he left).- New mixers mods, will give you 2X more up than down and the ma
jority of the adverse yaw goes away.
When setting my large models up for competition, it takes atleast 35 or 40
flights to get all the bad habits mixed out of the plane.- One of the big
gest issues is getting aileron travel dialed in so you perfectly axial roll
s.- This generally ends up have 2 to 2.5 times more up travel than down.
You can get the model IV mixer system from KF and retro it to your plane, b
ut if you have been flying it this way for 12 years I think you have a hand
le on it.
Personally I think it makes you a better pilot because it forces you to use
your feet..... alot.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238909#238909
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
Sounds like a lot of snake-oil to me! ;-)
I'm reviewing the Kitfox website about this issue Leonard, and it is
addressed in 3 places:
1. From Model 2 to 3 the vertical stabiliser size is increased to go from
yaw-neutral to yaw-positive.
2. From 3 to 4 the flaperon mixer is changed to the 2x configuration so that
it would "handle like a contemporary, certified airplane", the effect being
"rudder coordination was made much easier", but "while yaw stability was no
longer neutral, it was not aggressively positive".
3. Series 5 vertical fin changes were apparently the final solution:
"Refinements to the vertical tail surfaces and a new, trimable, horizontal
stabilizer enhanced the pitch feel. The Series 5 has a "smoother" feel than
the quick reacting Model 4, but retains the overall agility. Yaw stability
is positive and good."
So by my reading it was changes to the vertical fin in 3 and 5 that
corrected the yaw "feature" of Models 1 and 2, not the flaperon change; or
am I interpreting it wrong?
Gotta keep an eye on these snake oil salesmen <wink>
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 13 April 2009 11:12 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior
The "very strong adverse yaw" comes from the flaperon mixer design. While a
larger vertical stab will help the issue, the real bottom line is the
flaperons travel 2X more down than they do up. The down flaperon creates
more drag and pull you to that side ( you roll right and the nose goes to
the left). New mixers mods, will give you 2X more up than down and the
majority of the adverse yaw goes away.
When setting my large models up for competition, it takes atleast 35 or 40
flights to get all the bad habits mixed out of the plane. One of the
biggest issues is getting aileron travel dialed in so you perfectly axial
rolls. This generally ends up have 2 to 2.5 times more up travel than down.
You can get the model IV mixer system from KF and retro it to your plane,
but if you have been flying it this way for 12 years I think you have a
handle on it.
Personally I think it makes you a better pilot because it forces you to use
your feet..... alot.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238909#238909
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
A fix that helps.... is sealing the gaps on rudder ( elevator should be
too) and flying a forward CG
I found the simple mod to make a big improvement....
good luck
KF 2 582 BH 450 hrs
In a message dated 4/13/2009 10:59:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
fox5flyer@idealwifi.net writes:
Since you've been flying yours for 12 years I'd be the last one to try to
tell you how to fly it because you already know that, and very well. What
you have is typical adverse yaw which is typical of the early Foxes.
Snakeman explained it very well. Mine did the same thing, but after a few
flights it became second nature and wasn't a problem. There is something you
can do about it, but is it worth it?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: _Joe & Jan Connell_ (mailto:jconnell@fmwildblue.com)
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 10:55 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior
Gentlemen,
I've been flying my Kitfox-II for about 12 years. An item in the May
issue of "Flying" magazine is prompting this note. One paragraph in an article
called "Aftermath" by Pete Garrison states the following:
"I have very limited experience in LSAs, but one very popular model that I
have flown had surprising flight characteristics, including a rudder so
whimsical that it would remain at either stop, fully deflected, while the
pilot's feet were flat on the floor and the airplane flew merrily along in a
gigantic sideslip. This is the kind of behavior that one associates with the
First World War, not the 21st century."
My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on the
floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the wings a bit.
If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder is fully deflected.
It's as if the short fuselage and the small vertical stabilizer are
insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. If I remember, the Model-III
and
above have a much larger vertical stabilizer (with an airfoil) and rudder
assembly. The Kitfox has long wings relative to fuselage.
Is anyone else experiencing this condition? I'm thinking of adding some
sort of centering springs to keep the rudder centered in straight and level
flight. I've even toyed with the idea of replacing the rudder with a
larger later model...
Joe Connell
Kitfox-II N62JK
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Why pay full price? Check out this month's deals on the new
AOL Shopping. (http://shopping.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntinstor00000001)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
My flight instructor in the Kitfox (old-school tailwheel) taught me to
correct roll due to turbulence with the rudder, not the stick. After
experimenting I find this does indeed work better, on my Model 2 at least.
When flying a 172 I still use the yoke to correct for roll and the rudder
pedals are footrests. Maybe I'll try rudder control for roll on Pipers and
Cessnas next time I'm flying one to see if it works as well as it does in my
KF2.
Anyone else have any experience with this?
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 13 April 2009 11:54 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior
As a practical matter, it means keeping your feet on the pedals and
cross-controlling a tad to keep the ball centered in a turn. It's a quirk
but you quickly get used to it. Personally, I don't think it needs fixing
nor would I go so far as to say this benign characteristic makes the Model
II a throwback to WW1.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
--- On Mon, 4/13/09, akflyer <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: akflyer <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior
<http://us.mc369.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=akflyer_2000@yahoo.com> >
The "very strong adverse yaw" comes from the flaperon mixer design. While a
larger vertical stab will help the issue, the real bottom line is the
flaperons travel 2X more down than they do up. The down flaperon creates
more drag and pull you to that side ( you roll right and the nose goes to
the left). New mixers mods, will give you 2X more up than down and the
majority of the adverse yaw goes away.
When setting my large models up for competition, it takes atleast 35 or 40
flights to get all the bad habits mixed out of the plane. One of the
biggest issues is getting aileron travel dialed in so you perfectly axial
rolls. This generally ends up have 2 to 2.5 times more up travel than down.
You can get the model IV mixer system from KF and retro it to your plane,
but if you have been flying it this way for 12 years I think you have a
handle on it.
Personally I think it makes you a better pilot because it forces you to use
your feet..... alot.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238909#238909
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tank grounding |
I can offer what I did on my plane during the building. I soldered a
1/4" wide tinned and braided copper strap to the filler neck, ran it
back and across to the rear spar, and attached it to the rear spar
mounting bolt. I covered the strap with finishing tape.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Apr 13, 2009, at 11:53 AM, JetPilot wrote:
>
>
> icubob(at)gmail.com wrote:
>> hi all,
>> =EF=BDa friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks.
some
>> testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings
>> had prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to a
>> tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires
>
>
> On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so
> grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it
> would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to
> make an effective ground. Can you elaborate a little more on the
> grounding setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ?
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
> as you could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238918#238918
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> Sounds like a lot of snake-oil to me! ;-)
>
> I'm reviewing the Kitfox website about this issue Leonard, and it is
> addressed in 3 places:
>
> 1. From Model 2 to 3 the vertical stabiliser size is increased to go from
> yaw-neutral to yaw-positive.
>
> 2. From 3 to 4 the flaperon mixer is changed to the 2x configuration so that
> it would "handle like a contemporary, certified airplane", the effect being
> "rudder coordination was made much easier", but "while yaw stability was no
> longer neutral, it was not aggressively positive".
>
> 3. Series 5 vertical fin changes were apparently the final solution:
> "Refinements to the vertical tail surfaces and a new, trimable, horizontal
> stabilizer enhanced the pitch feel. The Series 5 has a "smoother" feel than
> the quick reacting Model 4, but retains the overall agility. Yaw stability
> is positive and good."
>
> So by my reading it was changes to the vertical fin in 3 and 5 that
> corrected the yaw "feature" of Models 1 and 2, not the flaperon change; or
> am I interpreting it wrong?
>
> Gotta keep an eye on these snake oil salesmen
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
Take a look at the 3-4.
It is basic lift versus drag. If at first they could not figure out how to update
the mixer, the only solution was to increase rudder / fin size. John Stoner
did the math, figured out the issue and made a new mixer that worked right.
That was on a model III.
No snake oil here, heck even Deke said I explained it well.. and if Deke agrees
with me then by golly you better get your affairs in order cause the end is coming
soon LOL.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238959#238959
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| Subject: | Re: Great Oil Debate |
Float Flyr wrote:
> Dave:
>
> Will the Bing carbs work in negative G?
>
> Noel
>
> --
negative there Noel no pun intended.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238960#238960
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| Subject: | Re: Great Oil Debate |
What is the actual issue with Amsoil ?
I don;t use it but I want to know why you are saying that Its not just corrosion
protection that is the problem with Amsoil 2 cycle,
Is there some documented info that you would like to share ?
Dave
JetPilot wrote:
>
> rawheels wrote:
> > Are the BPM XP-S/XPS Synthetic and Mineral oils compatible with each other?
Meaning, could you run the synthetic during the main flying season to capitalize
on it's properties, and then start using the mineral oil just before the
"slow" season to help with corrosion?
>
>
> Here on a forum its hard to get a near unanimous consensus on anything, but your
last thread got it with many many posts from experienced people saying what
you were proposing was a really bad and dangerous idea... There was also
a lot of good information in that thread that Amsoil 2 cycle oil is not a good
choice in 2 cycle engines. You still seem to not understand the fact that not
all synthetics are created equal, and you are still operating under the assumption
that amsoil " Synthetic " 2 cycle oil is going to have better running
properties than non synthetic 2 cycle oil. Its not just corrosion protection
that is the problem with Amsoil 2 cycle, there is a lot more to it than that.
>
> Mike
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238961#238961
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
Think Mc Bean has a mixer retrofit kit but best to ask him if it will fit.
The Iv model has different flapperons as well ( symmetrical ) and I am no sure
if that changes it at all.
I was out with a guy in a KF 2 today for 1.5 hours doing X wind circuits. wind
was 11 G 15 knots and had no problems doing 45 degree landings on grass. We
went to another strip that was 80 degrees cross and still no problem . He
is a newer pilot and just transitioning to tailwheel after one season on tri gear
then about 10 hours skis in tail dragger config.
Best to just learn to fly more with Rudder as you should be . Really not a big
deal.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238966#238966
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
Ouch! I felt that zinger clear down South here, Snake..... : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:38 PM, akflyer wrote:
>
> No snake oil here, heck even Deke said I explained it well.. and if
> Deke agrees with me then by golly you better get your affairs in
> order cause the end is coming soon LOL.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238959#238959
>
>
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| Subject: | Inverted Carbs, was: Great Oil Debate |
At 07:00 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
>Will the Bing carbs work in negative G?
Noel,
I don't think any float bowl system will work in 0 or
negative G. They rely on submersion of the main jet plus open bowl
vents to allow a pressure differential between the venturi and the
bowl. (That's what moves the gas into the venturi.) There are "pumper
carbs" for the 2-strokers that will work in any attitude. These could
probably be modified for the 912, if one didn't want to go to fuel
injection. You might also be able to get an Ellison carb to work on the 912.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tank grounding |
At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
>On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so
>grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it
>would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to
>make an effective ground.
Mike,
Bob Ducar, the early builder of my plane, neglected to
ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring
clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to
the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain, but beats having
a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing to bet
99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks, (Lynn's is the
first I've heard of,) and I've never heard of a filling fire in a
Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. ;-)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
At 07:55 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
>My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on
>the floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the
>wings a bit. If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder
>is fully deflected. It's as if the short fuselage and the small
>vertical stabilizer are insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight.
First of all, your case and the example are two completely different
things. The example is of neutral static stability. When deflected
the aircraft remains in its deflected state, neither returning nor
diverging from the deflected condition. It is possibly quite
dangerous because generally perfect neutral stability in aerodynamics
is hard to achieve. With a slight configuration change, the example
aircraft might just shift to negative stability, increasing in yaw
from a deflected condition. Thus were the rudder controls to fail the
aircraft would depart from controlled flight, not a good idea.
In your case you are simply seeing the rudder wag back and forth as
you work the ailerons. This does not mean you have negative or even
neutral static stability. And yes it caused by adverse yaw. All
aircraft will exhibit this behavior. And all aircraft have
substantially less static yaw stability without the rudder than with.
The Bonanza I flew would waddle all over without the feet on the pedals.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> Ouch! I felt that zinger clear down South here, Snake..... : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
> do not archive
>
Was not ment to be anything other than a funny... I cracked myself up with it
LOL.
Thinking just a touch more on the subject, the flaperon issue is dealing with nothing
more than adverse yaw. The larger fin adds to yaw stability, but does
not alleviate the flaperons from being the culprit. It is an inherent design..uhhh...
not really a flaw, but a "characteristic".
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238974#238974
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tank grounding |
My personnel opinion on aircraft grounding is this:
You ground the aircraft at exhaust before fueling=2C
You touch the gas cap to remove it=2C if there is any charge left=2C its go
ne.
I think all this is over kill=2C or talking points.
Clint
> Date: Mon=2C 13 Apr 2009 10:52:19 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> From: bnn@nethere.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding
>
>
> At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009=2C you wrote:
> >On my Kitfox=2C I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses=2C so
> >grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything=2C it
> >would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to
> >make an effective ground.
>
> Mike=2C
> Bob Ducar=2C the early builder of my plane=2C neglected to
> ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring
> clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to
> the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain=2C but beats having
> a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing to bet
> 99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks=2C (Lynn's is the
> first I've heard of=2C) and I've never heard of a filling fire in a
> Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. =3B-)
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego=2C CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tank grounding |
I came up with the idea of running a strap from my filler neck to the
airframe after reading a discussion here on the list. I got a lot of
my (sometimes hair-brained) ideas as a result of reading here early
on. Of course, if someone had said that a heavy plane would handle
better, I'd probably put concrete in the tires...what do I know? : )
Speaking of a fuel-filling fire, every time I fuel up, I'm always
thinking of what I'd do "just if....." I've got a mental picture of
jumping off the stool, grabbing the extinguisher, and heroically
putting out the fire.....at least that's the mental picture. In all
probability, the 6 o'clock news would probably show a screaming,
crying, moron running away from the scene with his hair (what's left
anyway) on fire.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
>> On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so
>> grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it
>> would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to
>> make an effective ground.
>
> Mike,
> Bob Ducar, the early builder of my plane, neglected to
> ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring
> clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to
> the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain, but beats
> having a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing
> to bet 99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks, (Lynn's is
> the first I've heard of,) and I've never heard of a filling fire in
> a Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. ;-)
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
So you're saying that if Deke agrees with you then hell must've frozen over?
Heck I'd better review those ski postings 'cause it sounds like I'm going to
need me a set! ;-)
Sounds like the Kitfox History pages are a little inaccurate then? You say
below "new mixer on Model 3", the website says 4. I'm assuming you meant
that John Stoner tried the new mixer on a 3 and Skystar incorporated it into
the 4? But the website still says they didn't achieve "Yaw stability
[that] is positive and good" until the Model 5 with a completely different
empennage but the same mixer as a 4.
And the lift vs drag part - so if I am turning to the right using the new
mixer the left flaperon travels further down than my Model 2, thus producing
more lift and more drag in the left wing, thus promoting yaw towards the
left... Ummmm, sounds like adverse yaw to me - BUT will require more right
rudder, which is correct. Versus my KF2 which needs right rudder in a right
turn followed by left rudder to keep the ball centered... Is that correct? I
mean the "basic lift vs drag" part of it, is that what you meant?
So I'm still a bit anally confused here. Can I order me a bottle of that
Snake Oil please, I think I need one. What proof is it BTW? 90?
<wink><nudge>
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 13 April 2009 1:39 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> Sounds like a lot of snake-oil to me! ;-)
>
> I'm reviewing the Kitfox website about this issue Leonard, and it is
> addressed in 3 places:
>
> 1. From Model 2 to 3 the vertical stabiliser size is increased to go from
> yaw-neutral to yaw-positive.
>
> 2. From 3 to 4 the flaperon mixer is changed to the 2x configuration so
that
> it would "handle like a contemporary, certified airplane", the effect
being
> "rudder coordination was made much easier", but "while yaw stability was
no
> longer neutral, it was not aggressively positive".
>
> 3. Series 5 vertical fin changes were apparently the final solution:
> "Refinements to the vertical tail surfaces and a new, trimable, horizontal
> stabilizer enhanced the pitch feel. The Series 5 has a "smoother" feel
than
> the quick reacting Model 4, but retains the overall agility. Yaw
stability
> is positive and good."
>
> So by my reading it was changes to the vertical fin in 3 and 5 that
> corrected the yaw "feature" of Models 1 and 2, not the flaperon change; or
> am I interpreting it wrong?
>
> Gotta keep an eye on these snake oil salesmen
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
Take a look at the 3-4.
It is basic lift versus drag. If at first they could not figure out how to
update the mixer, the only solution was to increase rudder / fin size. John
Stoner did the math, figured out the issue and made a new mixer that worked
right. That was on a model III.
No snake oil here, heck even Deke said I explained it well.. and if Deke
agrees with me then by golly you better get your affairs in order cause the
end is coming soon LOL.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238959#238959
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
And I took it as funny, as I'm sure Deke did....well, maybe his sense
of humor is waning a bit what with a soggy runway(s) and all.... : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On Apr 13, 2009, at 2:19 PM, akflyer wrote:
>
>
> Lynn Matteson wrote:
>> Ouch! I felt that zinger clear down South here, Snake..... : )
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> Status: flying
>> do not archive
>>
>
>
> Was not ment to be anything other than a funny... I cracked myself
> up with it LOL.
>
> Thinking just a touch more on the subject, the flaperon issue is
> dealing with nothing more than adverse yaw. The larger fin adds to
> yaw stability, but does not alleviate the flaperons from being the
> culprit. It is an inherent design..uhhh... not really a flaw, but
> a "characteristic".
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238974#238974
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
On Mon, April 13, 2009 8:56 am, fox5flyer wrote:
> What you have is typical adverse yaw which is typical of the early Foxes.
Deke - maybe this is a matter of semantics but adverse yaw is not this. Adverse
yaw is
the amount of rudder input you have to supply to compensate for increased drag
on the
outboard wing in a turn. If it were frictionless, then a coordinated turn with
ailerons would need no rudder input.
If I'm understanding correctly, what is happening is that there is no apparent
restoring force to return the rudder to a neutral position and the plan will happily
fly along in a skid without any applied force to the rudder.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
We the unwilling, led by the ungrateful, are doing the impossible.
We've done so much, for so long, with so little,
that we are now qualified to do something with nothing.
-- anonymous
Under every stone lurks a politician.
-- Aristophanes
Giving money and power to governments is like giving whiskey and
car keys to teenage boys.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> So you're saying that if Deke agrees with you then hell must've frozen over?
> Heck I'd better review those ski postings 'cause it sounds like I'm going to
> need me a set! ;-)
>
> Sounds like the Kitfox History pages are a little inaccurate then? You say
> below "new mixer on Model 3", the website says 4. I'm assuming you meant
> that John Stoner tried the new mixer on a 3 and Skystar incorporated it into
> the 4? But the website still says they didn't achieve "Yaw stability
> [that] is positive and good" until the Model 5 with a completely different
> empennage but the same mixer as a 4.
>
> And the lift vs drag part - so if I am turning to the right using the new
> mixer the left flaperon travels further down than my Model 2, thus producing
> more lift and more drag in the left wing, thus promoting yaw towards the
> left... Ummmm, sounds like adverse yaw to me - BUT will require more right
> rudder, which is correct. Versus my KF2 which needs right rudder in a right
> turn followed by left rudder to keep the ball centered... Is that correct? I
> mean the "basic lift vs drag" part of it, is that what you meant?
>
> So I'm still a bit anally confused here. Can I order me a bottle of that
> Snake Oil please, I think I need one. What proof is it BTW? 90?
>
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
well... in a short word... NO
John recognized the problem and made his own mixer for his model 3. He had conversations
with the factory that led to the model 4 having a different mixer.
The old mixer works like this. You give right roll input and the right flaperon
goes up only half the distance the left flaperon goes down. This makes the
left flaperon produce a butt load of drag and pulls the nose to he left, making
you use LOTS of right rudder to counteract this force.
The new mixer if you give it right roll input the right flaperon goes up twice
as much as the left one goes down, making less drag on the left side, therefore,
you need less right rudder input.
If I lost you on that one, you will need more than one bottle of snakeoil. I am
having a batch brewed up in high hills of kentucky that will be 190 to 200 proof,
so please, dont do shots of it, it is for "sipping" only!
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238988#238988
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Inverted Carbs, was: Great Oil Debate |
Guy, 912 not a great neg G engine. Stock Oil system is the issue.
This is why not many convert the Rans S 9 $ S10 to 912s. But stick with a 582
or put in a 670.
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=63
Lot of power and will work flawless at any atttittude with pumper carbs and neg Gs. Outside loop would kill a 912 quickly. Check the videos http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29
Most 2 strokes work well with pumper carbs but you should pre mix.
Your oil injection will get air in unless you got a flop tube type of oil injection
bottle. Really would be easier to just stay with Pre Mix.
Guy Buchanan wrote:
> At 07:00 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
>
> > Will the Bing carbs work in negative G?
> >
> >
>
> Noel,
> I don't think any float bowl system will work in 0 or
> negative G. They rely on submersion of the main jet plus open bowl
> vents to allow a pressure differential between the venturi and the
> bowl. (That's what moves the gas into the venturi.) There are "pumper
> carbs" for the 2-strokers that will work in any attitude. These could
> probably be modified for the 912, if one didn't want to go to fuel
> injection. You might also be able to get an Ellison carb to work on the 912.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238992#238992
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
Sorry to drag this on, pour us both a shot of that Snake Oil would ya...
So you're saying that this John Stoner, sorry I don't know who he is,
corrected *his* yaw problem on *his* Model 3; but it has nothing to do with
production kits, where a new mixer was introduced on the Model 4 but they
got it all wrong... I'm getting dizzy, and what does that have to do with
the price of Snake Oil? ;-)
Am I right in saying Models 1 and 2 have the same neutral-yaw problems, 3
and 4 have the same positive yaw but weak, and Model 5 finally has the same
positive yaw characteristics as spam cans? And that 1 and 2 have the same
small vertical stabilizers, 3 and 4 the same larger stabilizers, and 5 is a
completely re-designed empennage? And 1, 2 and 3 have 1:1 mixers and 4 and
up have the 2:1 mixers. Sure sounds to me like it was the bigger better butt
that made the difference to the yaw(ning) problem, not the mixer.
BTW I bought some 60 proof "cask strength" Macallan single malt once - they
recommend you mix it with spring water "to taste". I found it was best
straight, over a few ice cubes. [hic] Ever thought of selling that Snake Oil
as a BBQ lighter?
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 13 April 2009 3:15 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> So you're saying that if Deke agrees with you then hell must've frozen
over?
> Heck I'd better review those ski postings 'cause it sounds like I'm going
to
> need me a set! ;-)
>
> Sounds like the Kitfox History pages are a little inaccurate then? You say
> below "new mixer on Model 3", the website says 4. I'm assuming you meant
> that John Stoner tried the new mixer on a 3 and Skystar incorporated it
into
> the 4? But the website still says they didn't achieve "Yaw stability
> [that] is positive and good" until the Model 5 with a completely different
> empennage but the same mixer as a 4.
>
> And the lift vs drag part - so if I am turning to the right using the new
> mixer the left flaperon travels further down than my Model 2, thus
producing
> more lift and more drag in the left wing, thus promoting yaw towards the
> left... Ummmm, sounds like adverse yaw to me - BUT will require more right
> rudder, which is correct. Versus my KF2 which needs right rudder in a
right
> turn followed by left rudder to keep the ball centered... Is that correct?
I
> mean the "basic lift vs drag" part of it, is that what you meant?
>
> So I'm still a bit anally confused here. Can I order me a bottle of that
> Snake Oil please, I think I need one. What proof is it BTW? 90?
>
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
well... in a short word... NO
John recognized the problem and made his own mixer for his model 3. He had
conversations with the factory that led to the model 4 having a different
mixer.
The old mixer works like this. You give right roll input and the right
flaperon goes up only half the distance the left flaperon goes down. This
makes the left flaperon produce a butt load of drag and pulls the nose to he
left, making you use LOTS of right rudder to counteract this force.
The new mixer if you give it right roll input the right flaperon goes up
twice as much as the left one goes down, making less drag on the left side,
therefore, you need less right rudder input.
If I lost you on that one, you will need more than one bottle of snakeoil.
I am having a batch brewed up in high hills of kentucky that will be 190 to
200 proof, so please, dont do shots of it, it is for "sipping" only!
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238988#238988
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
uhhhh... no again.. swing batter swing... strike!
And 1, 2 and 3 have 1:1 mixers
NO. I, II and III have 2:1 going the wrong way from the factory.
You be getting yaw, adverse yaw, and yaw stability scrambled more than a breakfast
skillet at Denny's.
someone else want to take a shot at this one LOL.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239008#239008
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tank grounding |
Lynn,
I really like what you did, but since my Fox is already covered, I
just take the ground wire from the pump station and clip it to the
metal filler. All we can protect is an arcing across the tank inlet
anyway. Won't that work?
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> I can offer what I did on my plane during the building. I soldered a
> 1/4" wide tinned and braided copper strap to the filler neck, ran it
> back and across to the rear spar, and attached it to the rear spar
> mounting bolt. I covered the strap with finishing tape.
> <100_1289.jpg><100_1286.jpg>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2009, at 11:53 AM, JetPilot wrote:
>
>> <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>>
>>
>> icubob(at)gmail.com wrote:
>>> hi all,
>>> =EF=BDa friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some
>>> testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings
>>> had prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to a
>>> tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires
>>
>>
>> On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so
>> grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it
>> would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to
>> make an effective ground. Can you elaborate a little more on the
>> grounding setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --------
>> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
>> as you could have !!!
>>
>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238918#238918
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tank grounding |
What to do in the event of a filling fire?? I guess it all depends on how
much gas is in the plane. With only a little gas in the tanks I would think
there would be an explosion. (No more worries) If the tanks were full you
would have a fire that should be able to be put out by simply covering the
filler with the gas cap. No I don't want to try that. Best idea is to have
the extinguisher handy so you won't have to get down to get it.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding
I came up with the idea of running a strap from my filler neck to the
airframe after reading a discussion here on the list. I got a lot of
my (sometimes hair-brained) ideas as a result of reading here early
on. Of course, if someone had said that a heavy plane would handle
better, I'd probably put concrete in the tires...what do I know? : )
Speaking of a fuel-filling fire, every time I fuel up, I'm always
thinking of what I'd do "just if....." I've got a mental picture of
jumping off the stool, grabbing the extinguisher, and heroically
putting out the fire.....at least that's the mental picture. In all
probability, the 6 o'clock news would probably show a screaming,
crying, moron running away from the scene with his hair (what's left
anyway) on fire.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
>> On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so
>> grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it
>> would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to
>> make an effective ground.
>
> Mike,
> Bob Ducar, the early builder of my plane, neglected to
> ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring
> clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to
> the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain, but beats
> having a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing
> to bet 99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks, (Lynn's is
> the first I've heard of,) and I've never heard of a filling fire in
> a Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. ;-)
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Fw: Gasoline - no ethanol |
Hi Folks,
This in from a Kitfoxer in Michigan. I am posting for those who don't
know. Sounds good. Larry
Huntley
----- Original Message -----
From: Brocke, Rod
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 5:24 PM
Subject: Gasoline - no ethanol
I found a source of gasoline without ethanol here in Bay City. I found
out that many old boats have fiberglass tanks similar to our planes, in
that they are adversely affected by ethanol (ethyl alcohol). For this
reason, some marinas still carry straight gas. This area has a lot of
boat activity with its proximity to Saginaw Bay and I found a local
marina that carries straight gasoline w/o ethanol. The cost is
$2.28/gal., which is less than half the price of 100LL at James
Clements!
You may want to pass this tip on to your Kitfox group next time you are
blogging there.
Rod
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
04/13/09 05:51:00
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tank grounding |
I plan to njust get away from any aircraft that is on fire with no people involved.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239031#239031
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior |
At 2:41 PM -0700 4/13/09, akflyer wrote:
>someone else want to take a shot at this one LOL.
Sure, I will. Leanard, you're wrong. :-)
The model 1, 2, and 3 mixers were linear, both flaperons moving the
same amount. The adverse yaw comes from the increase in lift (and
therefore drag) being generated by the wing with the flaperon
deflected downward. This drag on the outboard wing cause the nose to
try to move away from the direction of the turn.
On the model 4 (and all subsequent models) they changed the mixer so
that the upward-moving flaperon moves twice as far as the one going
down on the other side. They called this the "differential flaperon
mixer" and, as I recall, it was quite the selling point when I
visited both the Denney and Avid factories in 1992. While the drag
still increases on the downward deflected flaperon, it is now
countered by the increased drag of the extra deflection of the
inboard flaperon, reducing the adverse yaw.
At 2:41 PM -0700 4/13/09, akflyer wrote:
>NO. I, II and III have 2:1 going the wrong way from the factory.
To make the downward-moving flaperon move twice as far would be
pointless--and Dean Wilson is a very smart guy.
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
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