---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/13/09: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:39 AM - Re: Re: Great Oil Debate (Noel Loveys) 2. 07:56 AM - Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Joe & Jan Connell) 3. 08:11 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (akflyer) 4. 08:29 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Bob Brennan) 5. 08:39 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 6. 08:49 AM - Re: Great Oil Debate (JetPilot) 7. 08:54 AM - Re: fuel tank grounding (JetPilot) 8. 08:58 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (fox5flyer) 9. 09:09 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Marco Menezes) 10. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Bob Brennan) 11. 09:24 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Aerobatics@aol.com) 12. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Bob Brennan) 13. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Lynn Matteson) 14. 10:39 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (akflyer) 15. 10:39 AM - Re: Great Oil Debate (dave) 16. 10:42 AM - Re: Great Oil Debate (dave) 17. 10:54 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (dave) 18. 11:06 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Lynn Matteson) 19. 11:07 AM - Inverted Carbs, was: Great Oil Debate (Guy Buchanan) 20. 11:07 AM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Guy Buchanan) 21. 11:18 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Guy Buchanan) 22. 11:20 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (akflyer) 23. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Clint Bazzill) 24. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Lynn Matteson) 25. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Bob Brennan) 26. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Lynn Matteson) 27. 11:54 AM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) 28. 12:15 PM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (akflyer) 29. 12:52 PM - Re: Inverted Carbs, was: Great Oil Debate (dave) 30. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Bob Brennan) 31. 02:42 PM - Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (akflyer) 32. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Weiss Richard) 33. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: fuel tank grounding (Noel Loveys) 34. 05:21 PM - Fw: Gasoline - no ethanol (Larry Huntley) 35. 06:34 PM - Re: fuel tank grounding (Tom Jones) 36. 11:56 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior (Michael Gibbs) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:14 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Great Oil Debate Dave: Will the Bing carbs work in negative G? Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:24 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Great Oil Debate Ryan, I have mentioned in the past posts about Shell Advance oil we have available her in Canada. As well as Csstrol super 2 stroke oil that you might find at Walmart. ? Read the labels, you want API- TC rating. It can be TCW3 rated as well at API.tc but not just TCW3 as that is outboard oil and not to be used. You see outboard engines have a constant supply of water at ? 32 F to 90F all the time. Heck our thermostats do not even open untill 135F . 582s like 160 to 176 F. Regardless , it remains the same API-TC. I don;t see Amsoil there . I can only tell you that I have no issues with what I use nor any of my locals. Forget about the 100 to 1 stuff. Oil injection is the leanest you want to go. It is automatic. If you doing aerobatics and doing neg Gs then i would consider pre mix. Hope this helps, -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada http://www.cfisher.com/ Awesome *New Forum * http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238755#238755 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:33 AM PST US From: "Joe & Jan Connell" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Gentlemen, I've been flying my Kitfox-II for about 12 years. An item in the May issue of "Flying" magazine is prompting this note. One paragraph in an article called "Aftermath" by Pete Garrison states the following: "I have very limited experience in LSAs, but one very popular model that I have flown had surprising flight characteristics, including a rudder so whimsical that it would remain at either stop, fully deflected, while the pilot's feet were flat on the floor and the airplane flew merrily along in a gigantic sideslip. This is the kind of behavior that one associates with the First World War, not the 21st century." My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on the floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the wings a bit. If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder is fully deflected. It's as if the short fuselage and the small vertical stabilizer are insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. If I remember, the Model-III and above have a much larger vertical stabilizer (with an airfoil) and rudder assembly. The Kitfox has long wings relative to fuselage. Is anyone else experiencing this condition? I'm thinking of adding some sort of centering springs to keep the rudder centered in straight and level flight. I've even toyed with the idea of replacing the rudder with a larger later model... Joe Connell Kitfox-II N62JK ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:56 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior From: "akflyer" The "very strong adverse yaw" comes from the flaperon mixer design. While a larger vertical stab will help the issue, the real bottom line is the flaperons travel 2X more down than they do up. The down flaperon creates more drag and pull you to that side ( you roll right and the nose goes to the left). New mixers mods, will give you 2X more up than down and the majority of the adverse yaw goes away. When setting my large models up for competition, it takes atleast 35 or 40 flights to get all the bad habits mixed out of the plane. One of the biggest issues is getting aileron travel dialed in so you perfectly axial rolls. This generally ends up have 2 to 2.5 times more up travel than down. You can get the model IV mixer system from KF and retro it to your plane, but if you have been flying it this way for 12 years I think you have a handle on it. Personally I think it makes you a better pilot because it forces you to use your feet..... alot. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238909#238909 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:56 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Joe - my Model 2 also exhibits the same characteristics, as I believe all un-modified Model 2's do. >From the Kitfox website at http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/Model%20III.htm: "The Model 3 was the first major attempt to aggressively deal with the yaw control issue. It should be remembered that we are not talking about yaw instability, but a neutral yaw condition. In other words, it was desired to have the airplane return to straight flight after pressing a rudder without having to move it back with your feet. Much of this objective was achieved by increasing the size of the vertical fin." Bottom line is - there's no cruise control on a Model 2, you have to fly it with your feet on the rudders at all times. Being a Model 2 owner I'd like to cite some positive benefit like "makes you a better pilot" but really it was just an evolving design and as the Models evolved certain things were changed. Come to think of it - when I flew Pipers I used to think a Cessna was a difficult plane to fly, now after flying the Kitfox the Cessna is like driving a car! And just as slow... As we say in the Engineering World - it's not a flaw, it's and undiscovered feature. ;-) Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe & Jan Connell Sent: 13 April 2009 10:55 am Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Gentlemen, I've been flying my Kitfox-II for about 12 years. An item in the May issue of "Flying" magazine is prompting this note. One paragraph in an article called "Aftermath" by Pete Garrison states the following: "I have very limited experience in LSAs, but one very popular model that I have flown had surprising flight characteristics, including a rudder so whimsical that it would remain at either stop, fully deflected, while the pilot's feet were flat on the floor and the airplane flew merrily along in a gigantic sideslip. This is the kind of behavior that one associates with the First World War, not the 21st century." My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on the floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the wings a bit. If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder is fully deflected. It's as if the short fuselage and the small vertical stabilizer are insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. If I remember, the Model-III and above have a much larger vertical stabilizer (with an airfoil) and rudder assembly. The Kitfox has long wings relative to fuselage. Is anyone else experiencing this condition? I'm thinking of adding some sort of centering springs to keep the rudder centered in straight and level flight. I've even toyed with the idea of replacing the rudder with a larger later model... Joe Connell Kitfox-II N62JK ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:44 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior why fly with your feet on the floor? they have built-in springs that can develop memory of what feels right. Put them on the rudder pedals and use them. John Kerr ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe & Jan Connell Sent: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:55:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Gentlemen, I've been flying my Kitfox-II for about 12 years. An item in the May issue of "Flying" magazine is prompting this note. One paragraph in an article called "Aftermath" by Pete Garrison states the following: "I have very limited experience in LSAs, but one very popular model that I have flown had surprising flight characteristics, including a rudder so whimsical that it would remain at either stop, fully deflected, while the pilot's feet were flat on the floor and the airplane flew merrily along in a gigantic sideslip. This is the kind of behavior that one associates with the First World War, not the 21st century." My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on the floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the wings a bit. If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder is fully deflected. It's as if the short fuselage and the small vertical stabilizer are insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. If I remember, the Model-III and above have a much larger vertical stabilizer (with an airfoil) and rudder assembly. The Kitfox has long wings relative to fuselage. Is anyone else experiencing this condition? I'm thinking of adding some sort of centering springs to keep the rudder centered in straight and level flight. I've even toyed with the idea of replacing the rudder with a larger later model... Joe Connell Kitfox-II N62JK ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:32 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Great Oil Debate From: "JetPilot" rawheels wrote: > Are the BPM XP-S/XPS Synthetic and Mineral oils compatible with each other? Meaning, could you run the synthetic during the main flying season to capitalize on it's properties, and then start using the mineral oil just before the "slow" season to help with corrosion? Here on a forum its hard to get a near unanimous consensus on anything, but your last thread got it with many many posts from experienced people saying what you were proposing was a really bad and dangerous idea... There was also a lot of good information in that thread that Amsoil 2 cycle oil is not a good choice in 2 cycle engines. You still seem to not understand the fact that not all synthetics are created equal, and you are still operating under the assumption that amsoil " Synthetic " 2 cycle oil is going to have better running properties than non synthetic 2 cycle oil. Its not just corrosion protection that is the problem with Amsoil 2 cycle, there is a lot more to it than that. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238917#238917 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:20 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding From: "JetPilot" icubob(at)gmail.com wrote: > hi all, > a friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings had prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to a tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to make an effective ground. Can you elaborate a little more on the grounding setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ? Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238918#238918 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:09 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Since you've been flying yours for 12 years I'd be the last one to try to tell you how to fly it because you already know that, and very well. What you have is typical adverse yaw which is typical of the early Foxes. Snakeman explained it very well. Mine did the same thing, but after a few flights it became second nature and wasn't a problem. There is something you can do about it, but is it worth it? Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe & Jan Connell To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 10:55 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Gentlemen, I've been flying my Kitfox-II for about 12 years. An item in the May issue of "Flying" magazine is prompting this note. One paragraph in an article called "Aftermath" by Pete Garrison states the following: "I have very limited experience in LSAs, but one very popular model that I have flown had surprising flight characteristics, including a rudder so whimsical that it would remain at either stop, fully deflected, while the pilot's feet were flat on the floor and the airplane flew merrily along in a gigantic sideslip. This is the kind of behavior that one associates with the First World War, not the 21st century." My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on the floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the wings a bit. If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder is fully deflected. It's as if the short fuselage and the small vertical stabilizer are insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. If I remember, the Model-III and above have a much larger vertical stabilizer (with an airfoil) and rudder assembly. The Kitfox has long wings relative to fuselage. Is anyone else experiencing this condition? I'm thinking of adding some sort of centering springs to keep the rudder centered in straight and level flight. I've even toyed with the idea of replacing the rudder with a larger later model... Joe Connell Kitfox-II N62JK ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:03 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior As a practical matter, it means keeping your feet on the pedals and-cross -controlling-a tad-to keep the ball centered in a turn. It's a quirk bu t you quickly get used to it. Personally, I don't think it needs fixing nor would I go so far as to say this benign characteristic makes the Model II a throwback to WW1. - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch --- On Mon, 4/13/09, akflyer wrote: From: akflyer Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior The "very strong adverse yaw" comes from the flaperon mixer design.- Whil e a larger vertical stab will help the issue, the real bottom line is the f laperons travel 2X more down than they do up.- The down flaperon creates more drag and pull you to that side ( you roll right and the nose goes to t he left).- New mixers mods, will give you 2X more up than down and the ma jority of the adverse yaw goes away. When setting my large models up for competition, it takes atleast 35 or 40 flights to get all the bad habits mixed out of the plane.- One of the big gest issues is getting aileron travel dialed in so you perfectly axial roll s.- This generally ends up have 2 to 2.5 times more up travel than down. You can get the model IV mixer system from KF and retro it to your plane, b ut if you have been flying it this way for 12 years I think you have a hand le on it. Personally I think it makes you a better pilot because it forces you to use your feet..... alot. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238909#238909 le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:20 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Sounds like a lot of snake-oil to me! ;-) I'm reviewing the Kitfox website about this issue Leonard, and it is addressed in 3 places: 1. From Model 2 to 3 the vertical stabiliser size is increased to go from yaw-neutral to yaw-positive. 2. From 3 to 4 the flaperon mixer is changed to the 2x configuration so that it would "handle like a contemporary, certified airplane", the effect being "rudder coordination was made much easier", but "while yaw stability was no longer neutral, it was not aggressively positive". 3. Series 5 vertical fin changes were apparently the final solution: "Refinements to the vertical tail surfaces and a new, trimable, horizontal stabilizer enhanced the pitch feel. The Series 5 has a "smoother" feel than the quick reacting Model 4, but retains the overall agility. Yaw stability is positive and good." So by my reading it was changes to the vertical fin in 3 and 5 that corrected the yaw "feature" of Models 1 and 2, not the flaperon change; or am I interpreting it wrong? Gotta keep an eye on these snake oil salesmen Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer Sent: 13 April 2009 11:12 am Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior The "very strong adverse yaw" comes from the flaperon mixer design. While a larger vertical stab will help the issue, the real bottom line is the flaperons travel 2X more down than they do up. The down flaperon creates more drag and pull you to that side ( you roll right and the nose goes to the left). New mixers mods, will give you 2X more up than down and the majority of the adverse yaw goes away. When setting my large models up for competition, it takes atleast 35 or 40 flights to get all the bad habits mixed out of the plane. One of the biggest issues is getting aileron travel dialed in so you perfectly axial rolls. This generally ends up have 2 to 2.5 times more up travel than down. You can get the model IV mixer system from KF and retro it to your plane, but if you have been flying it this way for 12 years I think you have a handle on it. Personally I think it makes you a better pilot because it forces you to use your feet..... alot. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238909#238909 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:31 AM PST US From: Aerobatics@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior A fix that helps.... is sealing the gaps on rudder ( elevator should be too) and flying a forward CG I found the simple mod to make a big improvement.... good luck KF 2 582 BH 450 hrs In a message dated 4/13/2009 10:59:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, fox5flyer@idealwifi.net writes: Since you've been flying yours for 12 years I'd be the last one to try to tell you how to fly it because you already know that, and very well. What you have is typical adverse yaw which is typical of the early Foxes. Snakeman explained it very well. Mine did the same thing, but after a few flights it became second nature and wasn't a problem. There is something you can do about it, but is it worth it? Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: _Joe & Jan Connell_ (mailto:jconnell@fmwildblue.com) Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 10:55 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Gentlemen, I've been flying my Kitfox-II for about 12 years. An item in the May issue of "Flying" magazine is prompting this note. One paragraph in an article called "Aftermath" by Pete Garrison states the following: "I have very limited experience in LSAs, but one very popular model that I have flown had surprising flight characteristics, including a rudder so whimsical that it would remain at either stop, fully deflected, while the pilot's feet were flat on the floor and the airplane flew merrily along in a gigantic sideslip. This is the kind of behavior that one associates with the First World War, not the 21st century." My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on the floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the wings a bit. If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder is fully deflected. It's as if the short fuselage and the small vertical stabilizer are insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. If I remember, the Model-III and above have a much larger vertical stabilizer (with an airfoil) and rudder assembly. The Kitfox has long wings relative to fuselage. Is anyone else experiencing this condition? I'm thinking of adding some sort of centering springs to keep the rudder centered in straight and level flight. I've even toyed with the idea of replacing the rudder with a larger later model... Joe Connell Kitfox-II N62JK href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Why pay full price? Check out this month's deals on the new AOL Shopping. (http://shopping.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntinstor00000001) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:39 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior My flight instructor in the Kitfox (old-school tailwheel) taught me to correct roll due to turbulence with the rudder, not the stick. After experimenting I find this does indeed work better, on my Model 2 at least. When flying a 172 I still use the yoke to correct for roll and the rudder pedals are footrests. Maybe I'll try rudder control for roll on Pipers and Cessnas next time I'm flying one to see if it works as well as it does in my KF2. Anyone else have any experience with this? Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: 13 April 2009 11:54 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior As a practical matter, it means keeping your feet on the pedals and cross-controlling a tad to keep the ball centered in a turn. It's a quirk but you quickly get used to it. Personally, I don't think it needs fixing nor would I go so far as to say this benign characteristic makes the Model II a throwback to WW1. Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch --- On Mon, 4/13/09, akflyer wrote: From: akflyer Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior > The "very strong adverse yaw" comes from the flaperon mixer design. While a larger vertical stab will help the issue, the real bottom line is the flaperons travel 2X more down than they do up. The down flaperon creates more drag and pull you to that side ( you roll right and the nose goes to the left). New mixers mods, will give you 2X more up than down and the majority of the adverse yaw goes away. When setting my large models up for competition, it takes atleast 35 or 40 flights to get all the bad habits mixed out of the plane. One of the biggest issues is getting aileron travel dialed in so you perfectly axial rolls. This generally ends up have 2 to 2.5 times more up travel than down. You can get the model IV mixer system from KF and retro it to your plane, but if you have been flying it this way for 12 years I think you have a handle on it. Personally I think it makes you a better pilot because it forces you to use your feet..... alot. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238909#238909 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:18 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding I can offer what I did on my plane during the building. I soldered a 1/4" wide tinned and braided copper strap to the filler neck, ran it back and across to the rear spar, and attached it to the rear spar mounting bolt. I covered the strap with finishing tape. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying On Apr 13, 2009, at 11:53 AM, JetPilot wrote: > > > icubob(at)gmail.com wrote: >> hi all, >> =EF=BDa friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some >> testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings >> had prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to a >> tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires > > > On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so > grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it > would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to > make an effective ground. Can you elaborate a little more on the > grounding setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ? > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast > as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238918#238918 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:38 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior From: "akflyer" matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: > Sounds like a lot of snake-oil to me! ;-) > > I'm reviewing the Kitfox website about this issue Leonard, and it is > addressed in 3 places: > > 1. From Model 2 to 3 the vertical stabiliser size is increased to go from > yaw-neutral to yaw-positive. > > 2. From 3 to 4 the flaperon mixer is changed to the 2x configuration so that > it would "handle like a contemporary, certified airplane", the effect being > "rudder coordination was made much easier", but "while yaw stability was no > longer neutral, it was not aggressively positive". > > 3. Series 5 vertical fin changes were apparently the final solution: > "Refinements to the vertical tail surfaces and a new, trimable, horizontal > stabilizer enhanced the pitch feel. The Series 5 has a "smoother" feel than > the quick reacting Model 4, but retains the overall agility. Yaw stability > is positive and good." > > So by my reading it was changes to the vertical fin in 3 and 5 that > corrected the yaw "feature" of Models 1 and 2, not the flaperon change; or > am I interpreting it wrong? > > Gotta keep an eye on these snake oil salesmen > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -- Take a look at the 3-4. It is basic lift versus drag. If at first they could not figure out how to update the mixer, the only solution was to increase rudder / fin size. John Stoner did the math, figured out the issue and made a new mixer that worked right. That was on a model III. No snake oil here, heck even Deke said I explained it well.. and if Deke agrees with me then by golly you better get your affairs in order cause the end is coming soon LOL. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238959#238959 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:59 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Great Oil Debate From: "dave" Float Flyr wrote: > Dave: > > Will the Bing carbs work in negative G? > > Noel > > -- negative there Noel no pun intended. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada http://www.cfisher.com/ Awesome *New Forum * http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238960#238960 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:33 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Great Oil Debate From: "dave" What is the actual issue with Amsoil ? I don;t use it but I want to know why you are saying that Its not just corrosion protection that is the problem with Amsoil 2 cycle, Is there some documented info that you would like to share ? Dave JetPilot wrote: > > rawheels wrote: > > Are the BPM XP-S/XPS Synthetic and Mineral oils compatible with each other? Meaning, could you run the synthetic during the main flying season to capitalize on it's properties, and then start using the mineral oil just before the "slow" season to help with corrosion? > > > Here on a forum its hard to get a near unanimous consensus on anything, but your last thread got it with many many posts from experienced people saying what you were proposing was a really bad and dangerous idea... There was also a lot of good information in that thread that Amsoil 2 cycle oil is not a good choice in 2 cycle engines. You still seem to not understand the fact that not all synthetics are created equal, and you are still operating under the assumption that amsoil " Synthetic " 2 cycle oil is going to have better running properties than non synthetic 2 cycle oil. Its not just corrosion protection that is the problem with Amsoil 2 cycle, there is a lot more to it than that. > > Mike -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada http://www.cfisher.com/ Awesome *New Forum * http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238961#238961 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:38 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior From: "dave" Think Mc Bean has a mixer retrofit kit but best to ask him if it will fit. The Iv model has different flapperons as well ( symmetrical ) and I am no sure if that changes it at all. I was out with a guy in a KF 2 today for 1.5 hours doing X wind circuits. wind was 11 G 15 knots and had no problems doing 45 degree landings on grass. We went to another strip that was 80 degrees cross and still no problem . He is a newer pilot and just transitioning to tailwheel after one season on tri gear then about 10 hours skis in tail dragger config. Best to just learn to fly more with Rudder as you should be . Really not a big deal. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada http://www.cfisher.com/ Awesome *New Forum * http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238966#238966 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:25 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Ouch! I felt that zinger clear down South here, Snake..... : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying do not archive On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:38 PM, akflyer wrote: > > No snake oil here, heck even Deke said I explained it well.. and if > Deke agrees with me then by golly you better get your affairs in > order cause the end is coming soon LOL. > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1260 > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238959#238959 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:38 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Kitfox-List: Inverted Carbs, was: Great Oil Debate At 07:00 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote: >Will the Bing carbs work in negative G? Noel, I don't think any float bowl system will work in 0 or negative G. They rely on submersion of the main jet plus open bowl vents to allow a pressure differential between the venturi and the bowl. (That's what moves the gas into the venturi.) There are "pumper carbs" for the 2-strokers that will work in any attitude. These could probably be modified for the 912, if one didn't want to go to fuel injection. You might also be able to get an Ellison carb to work on the 912. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:38 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote: >On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so >grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it >would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to >make an effective ground. Mike, Bob Ducar, the early builder of my plane, neglected to ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain, but beats having a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing to bet 99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks, (Lynn's is the first I've heard of,) and I've never heard of a filling fire in a Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. ;-) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:24 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior At 07:55 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote: >My Kitfox-II exhibits the exact characteristic! If my feet are on >the floor, I will get a very strong adverse yaw just by moving the >wings a bit. If I look in the rearview mirror I can see the rudder >is fully deflected. It's as if the short fuselage and the small >vertical stabilizer are insufficient to prevent yaw in straight flight. First of all, your case and the example are two completely different things. The example is of neutral static stability. When deflected the aircraft remains in its deflected state, neither returning nor diverging from the deflected condition. It is possibly quite dangerous because generally perfect neutral stability in aerodynamics is hard to achieve. With a slight configuration change, the example aircraft might just shift to negative stability, increasing in yaw from a deflected condition. Thus were the rudder controls to fail the aircraft would depart from controlled flight, not a good idea. In your case you are simply seeing the rudder wag back and forth as you work the ailerons. This does not mean you have negative or even neutral static stability. And yes it caused by adverse yaw. All aircraft will exhibit this behavior. And all aircraft have substantially less static yaw stability without the rudder than with. The Bonanza I flew would waddle all over without the feet on the pedals. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:13 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior From: "akflyer" Lynn Matteson wrote: > Ouch! I felt that zinger clear down South here, Snake..... : ) > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Status: flying > do not archive > Was not ment to be anything other than a funny... I cracked myself up with it LOL. Thinking just a touch more on the subject, the flaperon issue is dealing with nothing more than adverse yaw. The larger fin adds to yaw stability, but does not alleviate the flaperons from being the culprit. It is an inherent design..uhhh... not really a flaw, but a "characteristic". -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238974#238974 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:43 AM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding My personnel opinion on aircraft grounding is this: You ground the aircraft at exhaust before fueling=2C You touch the gas cap to remove it=2C if there is any charge left=2C its go ne. I think all this is over kill=2C or talking points. Clint > Date: Mon=2C 13 Apr 2009 10:52:19 -0700 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > From: bnn@nethere.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding > > > At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009=2C you wrote: > >On my Kitfox=2C I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses=2C so > >grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything=2C it > >would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to > >make an effective ground. > > Mike=2C > Bob Ducar=2C the early builder of my plane=2C neglected to > ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring > clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to > the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain=2C but beats having > a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing to bet > 99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks=2C (Lynn's is the > first I've heard of=2C) and I've never heard of a filling fire in a > Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. =3B-) > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego=2C CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:12 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding I came up with the idea of running a strap from my filler neck to the airframe after reading a discussion here on the list. I got a lot of my (sometimes hair-brained) ideas as a result of reading here early on. Of course, if someone had said that a heavy plane would handle better, I'd probably put concrete in the tires...what do I know? : ) Speaking of a fuel-filling fire, every time I fuel up, I'm always thinking of what I'd do "just if....." I've got a mental picture of jumping off the stool, grabbing the extinguisher, and heroically putting out the fire.....at least that's the mental picture. In all probability, the 6 o'clock news would probably show a screaming, crying, moron running away from the scene with his hair (what's left anyway) on fire. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying do not archive On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > > At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote: >> On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so >> grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it >> would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to >> make an effective ground. > > Mike, > Bob Ducar, the early builder of my plane, neglected to > ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring > clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to > the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain, but beats > having a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing > to bet 99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks, (Lynn's is > the first I've heard of,) and I've never heard of a filling fire in > a Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. ;-) > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:12 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior So you're saying that if Deke agrees with you then hell must've frozen over? Heck I'd better review those ski postings 'cause it sounds like I'm going to need me a set! ;-) Sounds like the Kitfox History pages are a little inaccurate then? You say below "new mixer on Model 3", the website says 4. I'm assuming you meant that John Stoner tried the new mixer on a 3 and Skystar incorporated it into the 4? But the website still says they didn't achieve "Yaw stability [that] is positive and good" until the Model 5 with a completely different empennage but the same mixer as a 4. And the lift vs drag part - so if I am turning to the right using the new mixer the left flaperon travels further down than my Model 2, thus producing more lift and more drag in the left wing, thus promoting yaw towards the left... Ummmm, sounds like adverse yaw to me - BUT will require more right rudder, which is correct. Versus my KF2 which needs right rudder in a right turn followed by left rudder to keep the ball centered... Is that correct? I mean the "basic lift vs drag" part of it, is that what you meant? So I'm still a bit anally confused here. Can I order me a bottle of that Snake Oil please, I think I need one. What proof is it BTW? 90? Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer Sent: 13 April 2009 1:39 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: > Sounds like a lot of snake-oil to me! ;-) > > I'm reviewing the Kitfox website about this issue Leonard, and it is > addressed in 3 places: > > 1. From Model 2 to 3 the vertical stabiliser size is increased to go from > yaw-neutral to yaw-positive. > > 2. From 3 to 4 the flaperon mixer is changed to the 2x configuration so that > it would "handle like a contemporary, certified airplane", the effect being > "rudder coordination was made much easier", but "while yaw stability was no > longer neutral, it was not aggressively positive". > > 3. Series 5 vertical fin changes were apparently the final solution: > "Refinements to the vertical tail surfaces and a new, trimable, horizontal > stabilizer enhanced the pitch feel. The Series 5 has a "smoother" feel than > the quick reacting Model 4, but retains the overall agility. Yaw stability > is positive and good." > > So by my reading it was changes to the vertical fin in 3 and 5 that > corrected the yaw "feature" of Models 1 and 2, not the flaperon change; or > am I interpreting it wrong? > > Gotta keep an eye on these snake oil salesmen > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -- Take a look at the 3-4. It is basic lift versus drag. If at first they could not figure out how to update the mixer, the only solution was to increase rudder / fin size. John Stoner did the math, figured out the issue and made a new mixer that worked right. That was on a model III. No snake oil here, heck even Deke said I explained it well.. and if Deke agrees with me then by golly you better get your affairs in order cause the end is coming soon LOL. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238959#238959 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:20 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior And I took it as funny, as I'm sure Deke did....well, maybe his sense of humor is waning a bit what with a soggy runway(s) and all.... : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying do not archive On Apr 13, 2009, at 2:19 PM, akflyer wrote: > > > Lynn Matteson wrote: >> Ouch! I felt that zinger clear down South here, Snake..... : ) >> >> Lynn Matteson >> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger >> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs >> Sensenich 62x46 >> Electroair direct-fire ignition system >> Status: flying >> do not archive >> > > > Was not ment to be anything other than a funny... I cracked myself > up with it LOL. > > Thinking just a touch more on the subject, the flaperon issue is > dealing with nothing more than adverse yaw. The larger fin adds to > yaw stability, but does not alleviate the flaperons from being the > culprit. It is an inherent design..uhhh... not really a flaw, but > a "characteristic". > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1260 > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238974#238974 > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Model II flight behavior From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Mon, April 13, 2009 8:56 am, fox5flyer wrote: > What you have is typical adverse yaw which is typical of the early Foxes. Deke - maybe this is a matter of semantics but adverse yaw is not this. Adverse yaw is the amount of rudder input you have to supply to compensate for increased drag on the outboard wing in a turn. If it were frictionless, then a coordinated turn with ailerons would need no rudder input. If I'm understanding correctly, what is happening is that there is no apparent restoring force to return the rudder to a neutral position and the plan will happily fly along in a skid without any applied force to the rudder. -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell We the unwilling, led by the ungrateful, are doing the impossible. We've done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do something with nothing. -- anonymous Under every stone lurks a politician. -- Aristophanes Giving money and power to governments is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:48 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior From: "akflyer" matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: > So you're saying that if Deke agrees with you then hell must've frozen over? > Heck I'd better review those ski postings 'cause it sounds like I'm going to > need me a set! ;-) > > Sounds like the Kitfox History pages are a little inaccurate then? You say > below "new mixer on Model 3", the website says 4. I'm assuming you meant > that John Stoner tried the new mixer on a 3 and Skystar incorporated it into > the 4? But the website still says they didn't achieve "Yaw stability > [that] is positive and good" until the Model 5 with a completely different > empennage but the same mixer as a 4. > > And the lift vs drag part - so if I am turning to the right using the new > mixer the left flaperon travels further down than my Model 2, thus producing > more lift and more drag in the left wing, thus promoting yaw towards the > left... Ummmm, sounds like adverse yaw to me - BUT will require more right > rudder, which is correct. Versus my KF2 which needs right rudder in a right > turn followed by left rudder to keep the ball centered... Is that correct? I > mean the "basic lift vs drag" part of it, is that what you meant? > > So I'm still a bit anally confused here. Can I order me a bottle of that > Snake Oil please, I think I need one. What proof is it BTW? 90? > > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -- well... in a short word... NO John recognized the problem and made his own mixer for his model 3. He had conversations with the factory that led to the model 4 having a different mixer. The old mixer works like this. You give right roll input and the right flaperon goes up only half the distance the left flaperon goes down. This makes the left flaperon produce a butt load of drag and pulls the nose to he left, making you use LOTS of right rudder to counteract this force. The new mixer if you give it right roll input the right flaperon goes up twice as much as the left one goes down, making less drag on the left side, therefore, you need less right rudder input. If I lost you on that one, you will need more than one bottle of snakeoil. I am having a batch brewed up in high hills of kentucky that will be 190 to 200 proof, so please, dont do shots of it, it is for "sipping" only! -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238988#238988 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:14 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Inverted Carbs, was: Great Oil Debate From: "dave" Guy, 912 not a great neg G engine. Stock Oil system is the issue. This is why not many convert the Rans S 9 $ S10 to 912s. But stick with a 582 or put in a 670. http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=63 Lot of power and will work flawless at any atttittude with pumper carbs and neg Gs. Outside loop would kill a 912 quickly. Check the videos http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29 Most 2 strokes work well with pumper carbs but you should pre mix. Your oil injection will get air in unless you got a flop tube type of oil injection bottle. Really would be easier to just stay with Pre Mix. Guy Buchanan wrote: > At 07:00 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote: > > > Will the Bing carbs work in negative G? > > > > > > Noel, > I don't think any float bowl system will work in 0 or > negative G. They rely on submersion of the main jet plus open bowl > vents to allow a pressure differential between the venturi and the > bowl. (That's what moves the gas into the venturi.) There are "pumper > carbs" for the 2-strokers that will work in any attitude. These could > probably be modified for the 912, if one didn't want to go to fuel > injection. You might also be able to get an Ellison carb to work on the 912. > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada http://www.cfisher.com/ Awesome *New Forum * http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238992#238992 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:11 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior Sorry to drag this on, pour us both a shot of that Snake Oil would ya... So you're saying that this John Stoner, sorry I don't know who he is, corrected *his* yaw problem on *his* Model 3; but it has nothing to do with production kits, where a new mixer was introduced on the Model 4 but they got it all wrong... I'm getting dizzy, and what does that have to do with the price of Snake Oil? ;-) Am I right in saying Models 1 and 2 have the same neutral-yaw problems, 3 and 4 have the same positive yaw but weak, and Model 5 finally has the same positive yaw characteristics as spam cans? And that 1 and 2 have the same small vertical stabilizers, 3 and 4 the same larger stabilizers, and 5 is a completely re-designed empennage? And 1, 2 and 3 have 1:1 mixers and 4 and up have the 2:1 mixers. Sure sounds to me like it was the bigger better butt that made the difference to the yaw(ning) problem, not the mixer. BTW I bought some 60 proof "cask strength" Macallan single malt once - they recommend you mix it with spring water "to taste". I found it was best straight, over a few ice cubes. [hic] Ever thought of selling that Snake Oil as a BBQ lighter? Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer Sent: 13 April 2009 3:15 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: > So you're saying that if Deke agrees with you then hell must've frozen over? > Heck I'd better review those ski postings 'cause it sounds like I'm going to > need me a set! ;-) > > Sounds like the Kitfox History pages are a little inaccurate then? You say > below "new mixer on Model 3", the website says 4. I'm assuming you meant > that John Stoner tried the new mixer on a 3 and Skystar incorporated it into > the 4? But the website still says they didn't achieve "Yaw stability > [that] is positive and good" until the Model 5 with a completely different > empennage but the same mixer as a 4. > > And the lift vs drag part - so if I am turning to the right using the new > mixer the left flaperon travels further down than my Model 2, thus producing > more lift and more drag in the left wing, thus promoting yaw towards the > left... Ummmm, sounds like adverse yaw to me - BUT will require more right > rudder, which is correct. Versus my KF2 which needs right rudder in a right > turn followed by left rudder to keep the ball centered... Is that correct? I > mean the "basic lift vs drag" part of it, is that what you meant? > > So I'm still a bit anally confused here. Can I order me a bottle of that > Snake Oil please, I think I need one. What proof is it BTW? 90? > > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -- well... in a short word... NO John recognized the problem and made his own mixer for his model 3. He had conversations with the factory that led to the model 4 having a different mixer. The old mixer works like this. You give right roll input and the right flaperon goes up only half the distance the left flaperon goes down. This makes the left flaperon produce a butt load of drag and pulls the nose to he left, making you use LOTS of right rudder to counteract this force. The new mixer if you give it right roll input the right flaperon goes up twice as much as the left one goes down, making less drag on the left side, therefore, you need less right rudder input. If I lost you on that one, you will need more than one bottle of snakeoil. I am having a batch brewed up in high hills of kentucky that will be 190 to 200 proof, so please, dont do shots of it, it is for "sipping" only! -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238988#238988 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:47 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior From: "akflyer" uhhhh... no again.. swing batter swing... strike! And 1, 2 and 3 have 1:1 mixers NO. I, II and III have 2:1 going the wrong way from the factory. You be getting yaw, adverse yaw, and yaw stability scrambled more than a breakfast skillet at Denny's. someone else want to take a shot at this one LOL. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239008#239008 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:36 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding Lynn, I really like what you did, but since my Fox is already covered, I just take the ground wire from the pump station and clip it to the metal filler. All we can protect is an arcing across the tank inlet anyway. Won't that work? Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > I can offer what I did on my plane during the building. I soldered a > 1/4" wide tinned and braided copper strap to the filler neck, ran it > back and across to the rear spar, and attached it to the rear spar > mounting bolt. I covered the strap with finishing tape. > <100_1289.jpg><100_1286.jpg> > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Status: flying > > > On Apr 13, 2009, at 11:53 AM, JetPilot wrote: > >> >> >> >> icubob(at)gmail.com wrote: >>> hi all, >>> =EF=BDa friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some >>> testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings >>> had prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to a >>> tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires >> >> >> On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so >> grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it >> would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to >> make an effective ground. Can you elaborate a little more on the >> grounding setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ? >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast >> as you could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238918#238918 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:43 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding What to do in the event of a filling fire?? I guess it all depends on how much gas is in the plane. With only a little gas in the tanks I would think there would be an explosion. (No more worries) If the tanks were full you would have a fire that should be able to be put out by simply covering the filler with the gas cap. No I don't want to try that. Best idea is to have the extinguisher handy so you won't have to get down to get it. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding I came up with the idea of running a strap from my filler neck to the airframe after reading a discussion here on the list. I got a lot of my (sometimes hair-brained) ideas as a result of reading here early on. Of course, if someone had said that a heavy plane would handle better, I'd probably put concrete in the tires...what do I know? : ) Speaking of a fuel-filling fire, every time I fuel up, I'm always thinking of what I'd do "just if....." I've got a mental picture of jumping off the stool, grabbing the extinguisher, and heroically putting out the fire.....at least that's the mental picture. In all probability, the 6 o'clock news would probably show a screaming, crying, moron running away from the scene with his hair (what's left anyway) on fire. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying do not archive On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > > At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote: >> On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so >> grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it >> would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to >> make an effective ground. > > Mike, > Bob Ducar, the early builder of my plane, neglected to > ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring > clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to > the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain, but beats > having a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing > to bet 99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks, (Lynn's is > the first I've heard of,) and I've never heard of a filling fire in > a Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. ;-) > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:44 PM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fw: Gasoline - no ethanol Hi Folks, This in from a Kitfoxer in Michigan. I am posting for those who don't know. Sounds good. Larry Huntley ----- Original Message ----- From: Brocke, Rod Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 5:24 PM Subject: Gasoline - no ethanol I found a source of gasoline without ethanol here in Bay City. I found out that many old boats have fiberglass tanks similar to our planes, in that they are adversely affected by ethanol (ethyl alcohol). For this reason, some marinas still carry straight gas. This area has a lot of boat activity with its proximity to Saginaw Bay and I found a local marina that carries straight gasoline w/o ethanol. The cost is $2.28/gal., which is less than half the price of 100LL at James Clements! You may want to pass this tip on to your Kitfox group next time you are blogging there. Rod ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 04/13/09 05:51:00 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:26 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: fuel tank grounding From: "Tom Jones" I plan to njust get away from any aircraft that is on fire with no people involved. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239031#239031 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:24 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Model II flight behavior At 2:41 PM -0700 4/13/09, akflyer wrote: >someone else want to take a shot at this one LOL. Sure, I will. Leanard, you're wrong. :-) The model 1, 2, and 3 mixers were linear, both flaperons moving the same amount. The adverse yaw comes from the increase in lift (and therefore drag) being generated by the wing with the flaperon deflected downward. This drag on the outboard wing cause the nose to try to move away from the direction of the turn. On the model 4 (and all subsequent models) they changed the mixer so that the upward-moving flaperon moves twice as far as the one going down on the other side. They called this the "differential flaperon mixer" and, as I recall, it was quite the selling point when I visited both the Denney and Avid factories in 1992. While the drag still increases on the downward deflected flaperon, it is now countered by the increased drag of the extra deflection of the inboard flaperon, reducing the adverse yaw. At 2:41 PM -0700 4/13/09, akflyer wrote: >NO. I, II and III have 2:1 going the wrong way from the factory. To make the downward-moving flaperon move twice as far would be pointless--and Dean Wilson is a very smart guy. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.