Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:21 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation (Bob Brennan)
2. 06:08 AM - Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation (Patrick Best)
3. 06:21 AM - Re: Trip Report (Tom Jones)
4. 06:42 AM - Re: GSC props (JetPilot)
5. 06:48 AM - Re: PolyFiber Reinforcing Tape (JetPilot)
6. 07:14 AM - Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation (n85ae)
7. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation (Noel Loveys)
8. 07:31 AM - Incredible Engine Fialure Video (JetPilot)
9. 07:43 AM - Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation (Noel Loveys)
10. 07:53 AM - Lift Reserve (Randy Daughenbaugh)
11. 07:54 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation (Bob Brennan)
12. 08:13 AM - Re: Incredible Engine Fialure Video (Bob Brennan)
13. 08:13 AM - Re: Lift Reserve (Bob Brennan)
14. 08:29 AM - Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation (Guy Buchanan)
15. 08:29 AM - Re: Lift Reserve (Lowell Fitt)
16. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation (Lowell Fitt)
17. 08:53 AM - Re: Lift Reserve (fox5flyer)
18. 10:08 AM - Re: Lift Reserve (Randy Daughenbaugh)
19. 10:08 AM - Re: Lift Reserve (Randy Daughenbaugh)
20. 10:08 AM - Re: Lift Reserve (Randy Daughenbaugh)
21. 10:21 AM - Re: Lift Reserve (n85ae)
22. 10:34 AM - Re: Lift Reserve (Bob Brennan)
23. 10:41 AM - Re: Lift Reserve (n85ae)
24. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: Lift Reserve (Bob Brennan)
25. 11:24 AM - Re: Re: Lift Reserve (Pete Christensen)
26. 11:32 AM - Re: PolyFiber Reinforcing Tape (Perkins, Mike)
27. 11:40 AM - Re: Lift Reserve (n85ae)
28. 11:51 AM - Lift Reserve (Mark Napier (napierm))
29. 12:17 PM - Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (motoadve)
30. 12:24 PM - Re: Re: Lift Reserve (fox5flyer)
31. 01:36 PM - Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (Frank Dykas)
32. 01:51 PM - Angle of Attack instrument (Paul Franz)
33. 01:54 PM - Re: Lift Reserve (Bob Brennan)
34. 02:22 PM - Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (Noel Loveys)
35. 02:37 PM - Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (Weiss Richard)
36. 03:03 PM - Re: Lift Reserve (fox5flyer)
37. 03:03 PM - Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (Guy Buchanan)
38. 04:02 PM - Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (Randy Daughenbaugh)
39. 04:09 PM - Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (John W. Hart)
40. 05:56 PM - Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (JetPilot)
41. 06:36 PM - Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (motoadve)
42. 07:33 PM - Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (Noel Loveys)
43. 07:52 PM - Re: Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (Noel Loveys)
44. 08:47 PM - Re: Charging system trouble shooting (WurlyBird)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation |
Randy -
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "lift reserve instrument"?
Obviously I can surmise from the name what it does, and it sounds very
useful, but I have never heard of such a thing. I want one!
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 23 April 2009 11:32 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Jeff,
I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
power about 30' from ground.
Another item that I really like for getting in short is a lift reserve
instrument. Having this really changed the way I fly. I do not pay
attention to the airspeed gauge much any more and I usually climb out at a
much higher angle than I ever dared to before.
Randy
Series 5/7
912S, WarpDrive taper tip
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
Deke -
I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly
I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly
uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it, and
the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky.
I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way
but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930
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| Subject: | Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation |
Chris Heintz wrote an article about the use of a skin as a hinge.
Design and Application of the
ZODIAC's Hingeless Aileron
http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-aileron.html
________________________________
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catz631@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
Speaking of flutter, I just returned from Lakeland. They had a Zenith 650 a
t the show and the hinges for the ailerons on that plane was the top wing s
kin ! There are no hinges ! Now perhaps I am getting the wrong picture here
, but I like hinges. What happens when you bend aluminum sheet over and ove
r and over. Eventualy it will fracture and break . Yeah ,I know it will tak
e a while but I could not get close enough to the (crowds) Zenith folks to
ask why they would do that.
I talked to an engineer at another mfg and asked why they would do that an
d he made sounds like a baby chicken (with a c)
Dick Maddux
Fox 4-1200
Pensacola,Fl
________________________________
Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!<http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net
%2Fclk%3B214133440%3B36002254%3Bj>
Message 3
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Guy wrote:
> Climb-out in the 8800' density altitude (They have a digital sign at both ends
that tells you the density altitude real-time.) was slow but steady.
That reminds me of the Kitfox cartoon I saw somewhere. It might be on the tee
shirt they gave me when I toured the factory back in "94. A kitfox is sitting
in front of a hangar. The hangar has a sign above the door. The sign has the
name of an airport and under that "Elevation, Who cares?"
Do not archive
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241015#241015
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Lowell,
You observation of the numbers of GSC props sold and reported problems does make
a very good point. I have to agree with you, given the numbers of props sold,
GSC props are not dangerous in used properly. I would not take that to mean
they are the best prop available now, a lot of advancements have been made in
sport propellers since the 1980's when kitfoxes started using GSC props.
This thread has been one of the better ones this forum has seen in a while. A
reminder of important maintenance procedures is a a good thing. I think the
many people here flying with GSC props will be extra vigilant in making sure their
props are properly cared for and properly torqued after reading this thread.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241022#241022
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| Subject: | Re: PolyFiber Reinforcing Tape |
[quote="CDE2fly(at)aol.com"]I found the 6 inch tape very easy to use.
Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!
> [b]
This will be good to know when I start covering my Kitfox... Even better is knowing
that I can get big savings on a new Dell Laptop, im off to the store to
get my new Dell ;)
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241023#241023
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation |
The plane is different with the 912
Yes they are set correctly. It may just be the heavier airplane. I'm at
967 empty weight with the the 240B. It's not an issue that I can't land
plane short, I can. The heavier nose airplane requires full trim which
means the tail incidence is all the down in the front. The roll control
is restricted, etc. So I don't use the second notch. The plane to me just
feels horrible handling in that configuration.
rjdaugh wrote:
> Jeff,
> I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
> About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
> then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
> technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
> power about 30' from ground.
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241028#241028
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation |
It is also known as an AOA instrument... ( angle of Attack )
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Randy -
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "lift reserve instrument"?
Obviously I can surmise from the name what it does, and it sounds very
useful, but I have never heard of such a thing. I want one!
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 23 April 2009 11:32 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Jeff,
I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
power about 30' from ground.
Another item that I really like for getting in short is a lift reserve
instrument. Having this really changed the way I fly. I do not pay
attention to the airspeed gauge much any more and I usually climb out at a
much higher angle than I ever dared to before.
Randy
Series 5/7
912S, WarpDrive taper tip
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
Deke -
I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly
I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly
uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it, and
the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky.
I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way
but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930
Message 8
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| Subject: | Incredible Engine Fialure Video |
Here is recent video from Florida, it was in a Skyranger, not a Kitfox, but they
are very close in performance. This is enough to make one think, it can happen
anytime !
This guy did a great job, tried to restart the engine while he had the time, which
gained him enough extra distance to make the road he did end up landing on.
Lost of luck there were no lines or traffic there, but this is a really great
video where everything worked out right.
As always with you tube, the video quality will be HORRIBLE unless you click the
" HQ " box at the bottom right of the video, and then make it full screen by
clicking the other box also on the bottom right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT58Di51wDk
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241040#241040
Message 9
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| Subject: | Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation |
The zenith design of having a hingeless attachment of the ailerons is quite
well proven. The length of the attach point, the grain of the metal and the
smallmovement the ailerons make all combine to make it very safe. That is
one part of the plane that is secure. Apparently there are reasons for and
against having the hinged and hingeless ailerons. I'm suer the people at
Zenith will be more than happy to let you in on all features of both
systems.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catz631@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
Speaking of flutter, I just returned from Lakeland. They had a Zenith 650 at
the show and the hinges for the ailerons on that plane was the top wing skin
! There are no hinges ! Now perhaps I am getting the wrong picture here, but
I like hinges. What happens when you bend aluminum sheet over and over and
over. Eventualy it will fracture and break . Yeah ,I know it will take a
while but I could not get close enough to the (crowds) Zenith folks to ask
why they would do that.
I talked to an engineer at another mfg and asked why they would do that and
he made sounds like a baby chicken (with a c)
Dick Maddux
Fox 4-1200
Pensacola,Fl
_____
Big <http://%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214133440%3B36002254%3Bj>
savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!
Message 10
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Bob,
It is a version of angle of attack, but with no moving parts. Essentially
it tells you how close you are to stall. Air speed doesn't do this. If you
are loaded heavier, you will stall at a lower speed. If you in an
accelerated condition, you will stall at a lower speed. The lift reserve
has a differential pressure gauge on your panel and when the needle is in
the green, you have lots of lift. When the needle is in the yellow, you
need to pay attention! When the needle passes the line between the yellow
and the red, you stall - or land if your wheels are inches above the
runway.
Google lift reserve.
I got mine from Kelly Meiste: kellymeiste@jcwifi.com
It is very simple and very sensitive. As I said, it has really changed the
way I fly.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:14 AM
Subject: Lift Reserve
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Randy -
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "lift reserve instrument"?
Obviously I can surmise from the name what it does, and it sounds very
useful, but I have never heard of such a thing. I want one!
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 23 April 2009 11:32 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Jeff,
I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
power about 30' from ground.
Another item that I really like for getting in short is a lift reserve
instrument. Having this really changed the way I fly. I do not pay
attention to the airspeed gauge much any more and I usually climb out at a
much higher angle than I ever dared to before.
Randy
Series 5/7
912S, WarpDrive taper tip
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
Deke -
I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly
I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly
uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it, and
the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky.
I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way
but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation |
So can you derive "lift reserve" from angle-of-attack? I know that it's the
AoA that determines when a wing will stall, not the airspeed, but on flare
we hold the stick back for a high AoA to bleed off airspeed and hopefully
maintain a constant close distance to the ground, but during that time the
"lift reserve" is diminishing until the airplane settles onto the runway.
Would an AoA instrument give an indication that correlates to that,
specifically during flare?
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: 24 April 2009 12:55 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
It is also known as an AOA instrument... ( angle of Attack )
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Randy -
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "lift reserve instrument"?
Obviously I can surmise from the name what it does, and it sounds very
useful, but I have never heard of such a thing. I want one!
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 23 April 2009 11:32 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Jeff,
I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
power about 30' from ground.
Another item that I really like for getting in short is a lift reserve
instrument. Having this really changed the way I fly. I do not pay
attention to the airspeed gauge much any more and I usually climb out at a
much higher angle than I ever dared to before.
Randy
Series 5/7
912S, WarpDrive taper tip
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
Deke -
I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly
I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly
uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it, and
the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky.
I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way
but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930
Message 12
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| Subject: | Incredible Engine Fialure Video |
That is an AMAZING video! And he even pulled off the road and parked the
plane!!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
Sent: 24 April 2009 10:31 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Incredible Engine Fialure Video
Here is recent video from Florida, it was in a Skyranger, not a Kitfox, but
they are very close in performance. This is enough to make one think, it
can happen anytime !
This guy did a great job, tried to restart the engine while he had the time,
which gained him enough extra distance to make the road he did end up
landing on. Lost of luck there were no lines or traffic there, but this is
a really great video where everything worked out right.
As always with you tube, the video quality will be HORRIBLE unless you click
the " HQ " box at the bottom right of the video, and then make it full
screen by clicking the other box also on the bottom right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT58Di51wDk
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241040#241040
Message 13
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Thanks Randy,
I found info at http://www.liftreserve.com/. I think I'm going to order me
one of those!
Thanks again,
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 24 April 2009 10:37 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Bob,
It is a version of angle of attack, but with no moving parts. Essentially
it tells you how close you are to stall. Air speed doesn't do this. If you
are loaded heavier, you will stall at a lower speed. If you in an
accelerated condition, you will stall at a lower speed. The lift reserve
has a differential pressure gauge on your panel and when the needle is in
the green, you have lots of lift. When the needle is in the yellow, you
need to pay attention! When the needle passes the line between the yellow
and the red, you stall - or land if your wheels are inches above the
runway.
Google lift reserve.
I got mine from Kelly Meiste: kellymeiste@jcwifi.com
It is very simple and very sensitive. As I said, it has really changed the
way I fly.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:14 AM
Subject: Lift Reserve
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Randy -
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "lift reserve instrument"?
Obviously I can surmise from the name what it does, and it sounds very
useful, but I have never heard of such a thing. I want one!
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 23 April 2009 11:32 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Jeff,
I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
power about 30' from ground.
Another item that I really like for getting in short is a lift reserve
instrument. Having this really changed the way I fly. I do not pay
attention to the airspeed gauge much any more and I usually climb out at a
much higher angle than I ever dared to before.
Randy
Series 5/7
912S, WarpDrive taper tip
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
Deke -
I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly
I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly
uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it, and
the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky.
I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way
but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930
Message 14
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| Subject: | Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation |
At 06:06 AM 4/24/2009, you wrote:
>Chris Heintz wrote an article about the use of a skin as a hinge.
An interesting article, as much for what it omits as for what it
includes. Though Mr. Heintz has done a great job of analyzing the
flexural properties of the hinge he says nothing whatsoever about its
lack of transverse stiffness. 3/4" of 0.016" aluminum has very little
shear stiffness. This allows the leading edge of the aileron to
translate perpendicular to the skin surface. I'm guessing I could get
the example leading edge to translate vertically +/- 1/16" without
much trouble. If that leading edge happens to be in front of the
aileron's CG you have a recipe for flutter. That's why most designers
use piano hinges. They locate the leading edge not only in the plane
of the skin, but perpendicular to the skin line as well.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Lift Reserve |
Randy,
I have Kelly's instrument as well, but have never used it as it came in the
mail as I was in the hospital after my airplane was destroyed. Can you tell
a bit about it's performance. I have it installed in the new project, but
it won't fly until fall or later.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:36 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> Bob,
> It is a version of angle of attack, but with no moving parts. Essentially
> it tells you how close you are to stall. Air speed doesn't do this. If
> you
> are loaded heavier, you will stall at a lower speed. If you in an
> accelerated condition, you will stall at a lower speed. The lift reserve
> has a differential pressure gauge on your panel and when the needle is in
> the green, you have lots of lift. When the needle is in the yellow, you
> need to pay attention! When the needle passes the line between the yellow
> and the red, you stall - or land if your wheels are inches above the
> runway.
>
> Google lift reserve.
>
> I got mine from Kelly Meiste: kellymeiste@jcwifi.com
>
> It is very simple and very sensitive. As I said, it has really changed
> the
> way I fly.
>
> Randy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:14 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Lift Reserve
>
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Randy -
>
> Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "lift reserve instrument"?
> Obviously I can surmise from the name what it does, and it sounds very
> useful, but I have never heard of such a thing. I want one!
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
> Daughenbaugh
> Sent: 23 April 2009 11:32 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
>
> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> Jeff,
> I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
> About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
> then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
> technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
> power about 30' from ground.
>
> Another item that I really like for getting in short is a lift reserve
> instrument. Having this really changed the way I fly. I do not pay
> attention to the airspeed gauge much any more and I usually climb out at a
> much higher angle than I ever dared to before.
>
> Randy
> Series 5/7
> 912S, WarpDrive taper tip
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:56 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
>
>
> Deke -
>
> I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly
> I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly
> uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it,
> and
> the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky.
>
> I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way
> but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation |
Bob,
I think that an angle of attack indicator and lift reserve indicator do
pretty much the same thing. The typical angle of attach instrument uses a
small vane that mechanically determines the angle of attack. The lift
reserve indicator uses differential pressure from two ports on a short wand
to determine the same thing. I have always thought of the naming as just a
marketing thing to differentiate the mechanical from the differential
pressure approach to the measurement. There is one design that uses small
holes at different points of the leading edge if the wing to determine
differential pressures.
Regarding my installation. I plan on mounting the readout gauge below the
glare shield with a a mirror to correct the image before it bounces off a
clear glass reflector, just like the heads up displays on military aircraft.
I hope to have it exactly in my forward vision during the critical
attitudes.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Brennan" <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:43 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
>
> So can you derive "lift reserve" from angle-of-attack? I know that it's
> the
> AoA that determines when a wing will stall, not the airspeed, but on flare
> we hold the stick back for a high AoA to bleed off airspeed and hopefully
> maintain a constant close distance to the ground, but during that time the
> "lift reserve" is diminishing until the airplane settles onto the runway.
> Would an AoA instrument give an indication that correlates to that,
> specifically during flare?
>
> bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
> Sent: 24 April 2009 12:55 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
>
>
> It is also known as an AOA instrument... ( angle of Attack )
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:44 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
>
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Randy -
>
> Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "lift reserve instrument"?
> Obviously I can surmise from the name what it does, and it sounds very
> useful, but I have never heard of such a thing. I want one!
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
> Daughenbaugh
> Sent: 23 April 2009 11:32 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
>
> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> Jeff,
> I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
> About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
> then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
> technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
> power about 30' from ground.
>
> Another item that I really like for getting in short is a lift reserve
> instrument. Having this really changed the way I fly. I do not pay
> attention to the airspeed gauge much any more and I usually climb out at a
> much higher angle than I ever dared to before.
>
> Randy
> Series 5/7
> 912S, WarpDrive taper tip
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:56 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
>
>
> Deke -
>
> I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly
> I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly
> uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it,
> and
> the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky.
>
> I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way
> but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Lift Reserve |
Do you remember how much you paid for yours, Randy?
Deke
> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> Bob,
> It is a version of angle of attack, but with no moving parts. Essentially
> it tells you how close you are to stall. Air speed doesn't do this. If
> you
> are loaded heavier, you will stall at a lower speed. If you in an
> accelerated condition, you will stall at a lower speed. The lift reserve
> has a differential pressure gauge on your panel and when the needle is in
> the green, you have lots of lift. When the needle is in the yellow, you
> need to pay attention! When the needle passes the line between the yellow
> and the red, you stall - or land if your wheels are inches above the
> runway.
>
> Google lift reserve.
>
> I got mine from Kelly Meiste: kellymeiste@jcwifi.com
>
> It is very simple and very sensitive. As I said, it has really changed
> the
> way I fly.
>
> Randy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:14 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Lift Reserve
>
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Randy -
>
> Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "lift reserve instrument"?
> Obviously I can surmise from the name what it does, and it sounds very
> useful, but I have never heard of such a thing. I want one!
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
> Daughenbaugh
> Sent: 23 April 2009 11:32 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
>
> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> Jeff,
> I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
> About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
> then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
> technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
> power about 30' from ground.
>
> Another item that I really like for getting in short is a lift reserve
> instrument. Having this really changed the way I fly. I do not pay
> attention to the airspeed gauge much any more and I usually climb out at a
> much higher angle than I ever dared to before.
>
> Randy
> Series 5/7
> 912S, WarpDrive taper tip
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:56 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
>
>
> Deke -
>
> I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly
> I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly
> uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it,
> and
> the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky.
>
> I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way
> but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930
>
>
>
Message 18
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Bob,
Yup, That's it!
You may want to check with Kelly. At the time I got mine, he was selling
for about one third the price they were asking.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Thanks Randy,
I found info at http://www.liftreserve.com/. I think I'm going to order me
one of those!
Thanks again,
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 24 April 2009 10:37 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Bob,
It is a version of angle of attack, but with no moving parts. Essentially
it tells you how close you are to stall. Air speed doesn't do this. If you
are loaded heavier, you will stall at a lower speed. If you in an
accelerated condition, you will stall at a lower speed. The lift reserve
has a differential pressure gauge on your panel and when the needle is in
the green, you have lots of lift. When the needle is in the yellow, you
need to pay attention! When the needle passes the line between the yellow
and the red, you stall - or land if your wheels are inches above the
runway.
Google lift reserve.
I got mine from Kelly Meiste: kellymeiste@jcwifi.com
It is very simple and very sensitive. As I said, it has really changed the
way I fly.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:14 AM
Subject: Lift Reserve
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Randy -
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "lift reserve instrument"?
Obviously I can surmise from the name what it does, and it sounds very
useful, but I have never heard of such a thing. I want one!
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 23 April 2009 11:32 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Jeff,
I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
power about 30' from ground.
Another item that I really like for getting in short is a lift reserve
instrument. Having this really changed the way I fly. I do not pay
attention to the airspeed gauge much any more and I usually climb out at a
much higher angle than I ever dared to before.
Randy
Series 5/7
912S, WarpDrive taper tip
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
Deke -
I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly
I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly
uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it, and
the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky.
I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way
but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930
Message 19
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Lowell,
I am not sure what to tell you. It works as advertised! It is very
sensitive, yet very stable. It takes a couple of flights to get it adjusted
correctly. You just change the angle where it is attached to the wing.
When you hit the line between the yellow and the red, you stall. It is that
simple. I do appreciate the analog gauge. The instruments that report with
lights or LEDs just can't give you as much info.
It doesn't take too long to get a lot of confidence in it. I have it at the
top of my panel and keep half an eye on it while landing. I have a lot of
cliffs and trees around my runway so weird air currents are common. If I
see the reserve lift dropping, I am quick to get a little throttle in there.
The biggest thing it changed in my flying was take offs. I used to keep the
speed above 65 indicated to be safe. With the lift reserve, I know how much
margin I have and can fly out at absolute Vx no matter what the conditions
are. This corrects for take off weight, density altitude, accelerated
conditions,,,... If you ever find yourself in a dive, (I haven't - at least
thus far!) you can use this to avoid a secondary stall while pulling out.
I feel that every plane should have one. It will make you a better pilot.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
Randy,
I have Kelly's instrument as well, but have never used it as it came in the
mail as I was in the hospital after my airplane was destroyed. Can you tell
a bit about it's performance. I have it installed in the new project, but
it won't fly until fall or later.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:36 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> Bob,
> It is a version of angle of attack, but with no moving parts. Essentially
> it tells you how close you are to stall. Air speed doesn't do this. If
> you
> are loaded heavier, you will stall at a lower speed. If you in an
> accelerated condition, you will stall at a lower speed. The lift reserve
> has a differential pressure gauge on your panel and when the needle is in
> the green, you have lots of lift. When the needle is in the yellow, you
> need to pay attention! When the needle passes the line between the yellow
> and the red, you stall - or land if your wheels are inches above the
> runway.
>
> Google lift reserve.
>
> I got mine from Kelly Meiste: kellymeiste@jcwifi.com
>
> It is very simple and very sensitive. As I said, it has really changed
> the
> way I fly.
>
> Randy
>
>
Message 20
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Deke,
It was $175. But that was a few years ago. I actually flew my friends
Highlander with the "In Air Instruments, LLC" lift reserve. I felt it was
not nearly as sensitive as Kelly's.
The research that I did on it back then indicated that patents have expired
on the design, so it is public domain technology. I hope I am right on
that.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
Do you remember how much you paid for yours, Randy?
Deke
> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Lift Reserve |
I have my handy dandy, poor mans bacon saver. Made from a carbon
fiber tube with a lexan background and marked at 10,20,30 degrees
about mid red is where it stalls. Power on, power off, the wing stalls
at the same angle. The little birdie on the boom has a aluminum fin.
It's fun to fly with, and taught me a lot about the plane.
I don't fly with it any more, as I discovered that aircraft feel with my
plane is just as usefull. The plane is very friendly flying, and it gives plently
of control feel feedback.
However, it cost me $0, and one hour time to make, and the parts were
stuff from the scrap box. It works very well and I can see it in my peripheral
vision very easily.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241082#241082
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aoa_100.jpg
Message 22
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Thanks - it's listed as $450 + $35 S&H. Yikes! At $175 I would have ordered
it on the spot. I will email Kelly now and post the response on the list if
I get one.
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 24 April 2009 1:03 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Bob,
Yup, That's it!
You may want to check with Kelly. At the time I got mine, he was selling
for about one third the price they were asking.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Thanks Randy,
I found info at http://www.liftreserve.com/. I think I'm going to order me
one of those!
Thanks again,
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 24 April 2009 10:37 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Bob,
It is a version of angle of attack, but with no moving parts. Essentially
it tells you how close you are to stall. Air speed doesn't do this. If you
are loaded heavier, you will stall at a lower speed. If you in an
accelerated condition, you will stall at a lower speed. The lift reserve
has a differential pressure gauge on your panel and when the needle is in
the green, you have lots of lift. When the needle is in the yellow, you
need to pay attention! When the needle passes the line between the yellow
and the red, you stall - or land if your wheels are inches above the
runway.
Google lift reserve.
I got mine from Kelly Meiste: kellymeiste@jcwifi.com
It is very simple and very sensitive. As I said, it has really changed the
way I fly.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:14 AM
Subject: Lift Reserve
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Randy -
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "lift reserve instrument"?
Obviously I can surmise from the name what it does, and it sounds very
useful, but I have never heard of such a thing. I want one!
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: 23 April 2009 11:32 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Jeff,
I wonder if you have your flaps setup correctly. I use full flaps a lot.
About the only times I don't use full flaps is if there is a lot of wind -
then I use half flaps. I also slip a lot. I need to try Maxwells
technique. I have some, but always chicken out and give a good shot of
power about 30' from ground.
Another item that I really like for getting in short is a lift reserve
instrument. Having this really changed the way I fly. I do not pay
attention to the airspeed gauge much any more and I usually climb out at a
much higher angle than I ever dared to before.
Randy
Series 5/7
912S, WarpDrive taper tip
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation
Deke -
I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly
I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly
uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it, and
the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky.
I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way
but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930
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| Subject: | Re: Lift Reserve |
I'll sell you the one in the picture above for half that, only $225 PLUS
I'll cover the shipping!
It's super sensitive, and requires no maintenance. It's dead accurate,
and works in any weather conditions. PLUS it looks cool.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241085#241085
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| Subject: | Re: Lift Reserve |
No picture attached Jeff... ??
Is it like my weather stick? I take my patented stick-and-string and hang it
from the roof gutter and it tells the weather - and it's always accurate.
If it's wet it's raining
If it moves it's windy
If it's white it's snowing
If it's bright it's sunny
If you can't see it it's night
And if it's gone it's a tornado!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: 24 April 2009 1:41 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lift Reserve
I'll sell you the one in the picture above for half that, only $225 PLUS
I'll cover the shipping!
It's super sensitive, and requires no maintenance. It's dead accurate,
and works in any weather conditions. PLUS it looks cool.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241085#241085
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| Subject: | Re: Lift Reserve |
Here is a home made Lift Reserve indicator.
http://glasairproject.com/GlasairI/docs/AirsoobLRI.pdf
Pete
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| Subject: | Re: PolyFiber Reinforcing Tape |
A 6" tape really looks good on the leading edge. I was taught to
tack-glue the tape down along the entire top edge first. You can get it
very straight this way using masking tape as a guide. Next, glue it
about to the center of the leading edge all the way down the wing. It
can be nicely smoothed out this way. Then go back and do the bottom
half. A cool day in the shade will keep the glue wet longer.
Mike Perkins
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| Subject: | Re: Lift Reserve |
I have to say, I think these systems are grossly overrated. They all do the
same thing. The super simple one I made works just as well as even the
most sophisticated systems. It might not look like much, but you can see it
and it is absolutely accurate.
I'm not going to say that somebody shouldn't spend the money if they
want to, but the one I built is plenty easy to see all the way down to short
final, at which point I'm not worried about it anyway. The big advantage
was it was free to build.
I used to work on Grumman E-2C Hawkeye's in the Navy, and they
have a very sophisticated system tied into the planes air data computer,
however in the end even it did pretty much exactly what the boom on
the wing system does.
I've flown sailplanes, and in them a simple piece of yarn on the windscreen makes
a great slip indicator. So you really don't need
something all to fancy.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241094#241094
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For the DIYer:
http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm
The thing I don't like about the Dwyer indicator is that it is a small
needle movement and it doesn't fit in a standard hole.
The movement is a differential pressure gage. Well we use one all the
time: the airspeed indicator. So you want something that shows inches
of water column. It turns out that a very low range airspeed indicator
is ideal for this. You just need to take some Testers flat black paint
and cover up the instrument markings and then some red, yellow and green
paint to put the ranges on you are interested in. Plus maybe turn the
instrument 90 deg. so the needle movement of interest is up at the top.
But an airspeed indicator is expensive, yes?
Check this one on ebay. He has a few.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NIB-2-1-4-Falcon-Metric-Airspeed-0-120-KP
H-Kilometers_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ26
439QQihZ016QQitemZ260392820130QQtcZphoto
120 kph is only 75 mph.
You can easily open just the face of this instrument with a square piece
of thin sheet steel to engage the black brass ring that holds on the
glass.
I ran the numbers for inches of water to miles per hour and got:
0.5 inches = 31.9 mph = 51.4 kph
1.0 inches = 45.1 mph = 72.6 kph
1.5 inches = 55.2 mph = 88.9 kph
2.0 inches = 63.7 mph = 102.6 kph
3.0 inches = 78.0 mph = 125.6 kph
To be sure, calibrate the meter movement by using a U tube of water
(manometer) and measure the water level difference with a ruler. It's
very easy to do just using the pitot input.
Yes, I bought a couple at this price. The model number is BK120-1A. It
comes with a little sheet that shows the test data.
http://www.taihangybc.com/theng/at-004.htm
FWIW,
Mark Napier
-----Original Message-----
matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:34 am Post subject: Lift Reserve
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Thanks - it's listed as $450 + $35 S&H. Yikes! At $175 I would have
ordered
it on the spot. I will email Kelly now and post the response on the list
if
I get one.
bob
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| Subject: | Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 |
Im thinking of buying a plane , want something durable, easy to fly, reliable,
good glider in case of engine quit, and slow stall speeds
Im looking into the Zenith CH 701 or maybe a kitfox, for my needs what do you guys
think is best?
I want a Rotax 912 in the nose on either plane.
If you guys think kitfox is for me which model?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241101#241101
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| Subject: | Re: Lift Reserve |
Good one Pete. Something to do next winter.
Deke
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Christensen" <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Lift Reserve
> <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Here is a home made Lift Reserve indicator.
>
> http://glasairproject.com/GlasairI/docs/AirsoobLRI.pdf
>
> Pete
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH |
701
I might be able to help here. Kitfox model currently in kit and LSA
production is the Super Sport. It's basically a refined Series 7. The
cabin is wider, and the plane is truly refined.
Here's a little history. The Series 1, 2 and 3 have a smaller fuselage,
much narrower passenger compartment, and need a lot of rudder control
inputs. The Series 4 was a redesign of the Series 3, and is a much better
handling airplane. There are probably a couple thousand Series 4's out
there. This is the design that most others copied (but not Zenith), think
of the Eurofox. It's a great aircraft, but again, a narrow cockpit that
will hold two people if they are good friends. It's about the same width at
the Zenith if I remember correctly.
There were two Series 5's. The original Series 5 has a gross weight of 1340
lbs, and was tailwheel only. The later Series 5 has a beefed up fuselage,
and a possible gross weight of 1550. I'm not sure, but I think all Series
5's are tail draggers. The Series 6, amongst other changes, is configurable
with either a nose wheel or tail dragger. It's often called the Vixen.
The Series 7 is a Series 6 with a much improved wing and flapperon assembly,
and is a refined aircraft. It is easily converted between nose wheel and
tail dragger. It's got a wider cockpit. Can fly with either the 80hp 912
or 100hp 912S. There are two configurations for elevator trim, first is a
stablator, second are trim tabs. Accord to John McBean, the stablator is
better and that is the current configuration for Super Sport.
The current production model is the Super Sport, and it's a refined Series
7, which adds back some of the better features of the Series 6 which were
dropped from the Series 7 when Skystar owned the company. It's a nice
airplane and it's much wider in the cockpit than the Zenith. It's also
faster. It can be built as an eLSA, with the lowered gross weight, or as a
straight experimental with a 1550 weight, or now purchased as a preassembled
LSA from Kitfox Aircraft. It is a versatile aircraft that can go low and
slow, in the mountains, yet still is comfortable enough to long cross
country travel.
I looked at both, and chose the Kitfox. Glad I did.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of motoadve
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:15 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH
701
Im thinking of buying a plane , want something durable, easy to fly,
reliable, good glider in case of engine quit, and slow stall speeds
Im looking into the Zenith CH 701 or maybe a kitfox, for my needs what do
you guys think is best?
I want a Rotax 912 in the nose on either plane.
If you guys think kitfox is for me which model?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241101#241101
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07:54:00
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| Subject: | Angle of Attack instrument |
Ebbie Mendenhall, a retired Airline Pilot and long time flight instructor
occassionally looks in on this group. I've met him once or twice at Thun Field
many
years ago. He has a website and sells his "rite angle" instrument.
<http://www.riteangle.com/>
It's a well done site and well worth a few minutes to read about Elbie too. The
physics are legit and this is a bona fide useful product.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by
money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no
longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an
indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions."
--James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, 21 January 1792
"[At Obama's last press conference, there] was a question by CBS' Chip
Reid about the $2.3 trillion difference in the size of the debt between
the Administration's estimates and the Congressional Budget Office.
'Some Republicans,' he said, 'called your budget ... the most
irresponsible budget in American history.' Obama may be sitting in the
Oval Office and he might have promised to open the post-partisan era,
but his answer was: 'First of all, I suspect that some of those
Republican critics have a short memory, because as I recall, I'm
inheriting a $1.3 trillion deficit, annual deficit, from them.' Return
with me now to January 3, 2007 when John Boehner, Republican of Ohio
was elected Speaker of the House following the 2006 mid-term elections.
Whoa! What? Nancy Pelosi became Speaker? And the Democrats controlled
the House? And the Senate? And they have controlled the budget
committees for the past two years? So the '$1.3 trillion deficit,
annual deficit' was adopted by the Democrat-controlled Congress? Well,
then, which Congressional Republicans could President Obama have been
talking about? Must have been those Republican Chairmen of the House
and Senate Budget Committees, U.S. Rep. John Spratt (D-SC) and Sen.
Kent Conrad (D-ND)."
-- political analyst Rich Galen
"Actions do deter; words are much less effective. Regimes like
those in North Korea and Iran are not likely to be deterred from
becoming nuclear powers -- aggressive nuclear powers -- by just
words, however smooth this president's. John Bolton, the former
American ambassador to the United Nations and current prophet
without honor in his own country, noted that President Obama had
said North Korea's firing its (misguided) missile would be a
'provocative' act. Yet when it did, that regime suffered no
repercussions except more empty words of censure. Just a few days
before the missile launch, this country's special envoy for North
Korea, one Stephen Bosworth, announced that he was ready to reward
Pyongyang with a visit -- and resumption of six-power talks once
the 'dust from the missile settles.' To quote a stunned John
Bolton, 'It is no wonder the North Koreans fired away.' Iran's
mullahs doubtless were watching the American cave-in carefully,
and drawing the correct conclusions: With this president in the
White House, they face no serious obstacle to the development of
their own nuclear-tipped missiles, at least not from this country.
The Israelis, as always, may be another matter. If and when they
do act, what then? The world may find that it has drifted into
catastrophe. And once again it will have been demonstrated that
not taking action has consequences, too.
-- Arkansas Democrat-Gazette editor Paul Greenberg
Message 33
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Randy,
Below is the reply from Kelly, along with a shout-out to you.
His kit is at http://lri.kit.googlepages.com and looks really good, at the
same price you paid for it. I'll be getting one!
Thanks again for the reference Randy,
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
From: Kelly Meiste [mailto:kellymeiste@jcwifi.com]
Sent: 24 April 2009 4:41 pm
Subject: Re: Lift Reserve
Hi Bob,
Thank you for the info, glad Randy is enjoying his kit!
Here's the link to my website, not much has changed.
lri.kit.googlepages.com
Price is still the same, but I've added a few more options (black gauge
overlay, and a longer tube option).
Thanks for the interest, let me know if I can answer any more questions for
you.
Best regards,
Kelly
PS. Feel free to post anything about my kit (good OR bad).
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:30 PM
Subject: Lift Reserve
Kelly,
There is a discussion going on right now about Lift Reserve on the
Matronics Kitfox list, started by Randy Daughenbaugh who has raved about how
good it is. I went to http://www.liftreserve.com/ right away and would have
ordered it on the spot just from Randy's recommendation but was stunned by
the $450 +$35 S&H price. He said he had "paid $175 for it but that was a few
years ago" and that I should get in touch with you directly. At a better
price I would order one right away and if I were to post it on the mailing
list, with your permission of course, I think you would get several orders
today alone.
Thanks in advance,
Bob Brennan
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| Subject: | Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH |
701
You realize this will be a biased group! At least I hope it will be a
biased group.
The Zenith is a good performer... as long as the power is on. It will glide
better than the proverbial manhole cover but I have heard not as well as the
'fox.
The Zenith is a monocoque construction which means it derives its strength
from the shape of the aluminium skins. Get a small dent in one and you may
destroy the integrity of the plane until that particular skin is replaced.
The Cessna 150 also has this particular type of construction. It is light
and strong as long as you don't dent it.
The Kitfox is 4130 chromoly steel. It will take a pretty good bending and
still be strong enough to fly. The weak point has always been the cloth
covering. Yes it is possible to push a sharp object through it but if you
do you cam repair it quickly with a patch doped on to the affected area. It
doesn't need the colour coats to fly.... In fact it will fly quite nicely
and very lightly without the colour dope.
For me I like the tube and rag construction. The spoiler was the folding
wings. Theyt fold easily on my palnd without disconnecting anything other
than the front spars. I can fold the wings on my plane without help in
about three minutes, Ten minutes with help. :-)
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of motoadve
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 4:45 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH
701
Im thinking of buying a plane , want something durable, easy to fly,
reliable, good glider in case of engine quit, and slow stall speeds
Im looking into the Zenith CH 701 or maybe a kitfox, for my needs what do
you guys think is best?
I want a Rotax 912 in the nose on either plane.
If you guys think kitfox is for me which model?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241101#241101
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH |
701
Frank,
Good run down. One slight correction. The original Series V was a
1400 LBS gross weight. A thicker spar upped it to 1550.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Apr 24, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Frank Dykas wrote:
>
> I might be able to help here. Kitfox model currently in kit and LSA
> production is the Super Sport. It's basically a refined Series 7.
> The
> cabin is wider, and the plane is truly refined.
>
> Here's a little history. The Series 1, 2 and 3 have a smaller
> fuselage,
> much narrower passenger compartment, and need a lot of rudder control
> inputs. The Series 4 was a redesign of the Series 3, and is a much
> better
> handling airplane. There are probably a couple thousand Series 4's
> out
> there. This is the design that most others copied (but not Zenith),
> think
> of the Eurofox. It's a great aircraft, but again, a narrow cockpit
> that
> will hold two people if they are good friends. It's about the same
> width at
> the Zenith if I remember correctly.
>
> There were two Series 5's. The original Series 5 has a gross weight
> of 1340
> lbs, and was tailwheel only. The later Series 5 has a beefed up
> fuselage,
> and a possible gross weight of 1550. I'm not sure, but I think all
> Series
> 5's are tail draggers. The Series 6, amongst other changes, is
> configurable
> with either a nose wheel or tail dragger. It's often called the
> Vixen.
>
> The Series 7 is a Series 6 with a much improved wing and flapperon
> assembly,
> and is a refined aircraft. It is easily converted between nose
> wheel and
> tail dragger. It's got a wider cockpit. Can fly with either the
> 80hp 912
> or 100hp 912S. There are two configurations for elevator trim,
> first is a
> stablator, second are trim tabs. Accord to John McBean, the
> stablator is
> better and that is the current configuration for Super Sport.
>
> The current production model is the Super Sport, and it's a refined
> Series
> 7, which adds back some of the better features of the Series 6 which
> were
> dropped from the Series 7 when Skystar owned the company. It's a nice
> airplane and it's much wider in the cockpit than the Zenith. It's
> also
> faster. It can be built as an eLSA, with the lowered gross weight,
> or as a
> straight experimental with a 1550 weight, or now purchased as a
> preassembled
> LSA from Kitfox Aircraft. It is a versatile aircraft that can go
> low and
> slow, in the mountains, yet still is comfortable enough to long cross
> country travel.
>
> I looked at both, and chose the Kitfox. Glad I did.
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of motoadve
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:15 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox
> or a CH
> 701
>
>
> Im thinking of buying a plane , want something durable, easy to fly,
> reliable, good glider in case of engine quit, and slow stall speeds
>
> Im looking into the Zenith CH 701 or maybe a kitfox, for my needs
> what do
> you guys think is best?
> I want a Rotax 912 in the nose on either plane.
>
> If you guys think kitfox is for me which model?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241101#241101
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 07:54:00
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Lift Reserve |
Thanks, Randy. Even my feeble brain works that out to somewhere around 260%
increase. It would be interesting to hear them justify it.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
do not archive
> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> Deke,
> It was $175. But that was a few years ago. I actually flew my friends
> Highlander with the "In Air Instruments, LLC" lift reserve. I felt it was
> not nearly as sensitive as Kelly's.
>
> The research that I did on it back then indicated that patents have
> expired
> on the design, so it is public domain technology. I hope I am right on
> that.
>
> Randy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:53 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lift Reserve
>
>
> Do you remember how much you paid for yours, Randy?
> Deke
>
>> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>>
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a |
CH 701
At 12:15 PM 4/24/2009, you wrote:
>Im looking into the Zenith CH 701 or maybe a kitfox, for my needs
>what do you guys think is best?
>I want a Rotax 912 in the nose on either plane.
That's easy. Kitfox all the way. (After all, this IS the Kitfox
forum.) Seriously, though, you've got to fly them yourself. There's
no way to tell otherwise.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
Message 38
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| Subject: | Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH |
701
As long as we are picking on Frank, one more correction. The series 5 could
be purchased as either a tail dragger (Outback) or as tricycle gear (Vixen -
I don't know why they needed names!). You had to make a choice when you
ordered. The 6 and 7 can be set up either way or switched back and forth.
Good job though Frank. It is easier and more fun to criticize..
And I am sure that the ktifox has a better glide ratio, but still not
fantastic at about 10:1.
Randy - one of the biased Fox owners.
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weiss Richard
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or
a CH 701
Frank,
Good run down. One slight correction. The original Series V was a 1400 LBS
gross weight. A thicker spar upped it to 1550.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Apr 24, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Frank Dykas wrote:
I might be able to help here. Kitfox model currently in kit and LSA
production is the Super Sport. It's basically a refined Series 7. The
cabin is wider, and the plane is truly refined.
Here's a little history. The Series 1, 2 and 3 have a smaller fuselage,
much narrower passenger compartment, and need a lot of rudder control
inputs. The Series 4 was a redesign of the Series 3, and is a much better
handling airplane. There are probably a couple thousand Series 4's out
there. This is the design that most others copied (but not Zenith), think
of the Eurofox. It's a great aircraft, but again, a narrow cockpit that
will hold two people if they are good friends. It's about the same width at
the Zenith if I remember correctly.
There were two Series 5's. The original Series 5 has a gross weight of 1340
lbs, and was tailwheel only. The later Series 5 has a beefed up fuselage,
and a possible gross weight of 1550. I'm not sure, but I think all Series
5's are tail draggers. The Series 6, amongst other changes, is configurable
with either a nose wheel or tail dragger. It's often called the Vixen.
The Series 7 is a Series 6 with a much improved wing and flapperon assembly,
and is a refined aircraft. It is easily converted between nose wheel and
tail dragger. It's got a wider cockpit. Can fly with either the 80hp 912
or 100hp 912S. There are two configurations for elevator trim, first is a
stablator, second are trim tabs. Accord to John McBean, the stablator is
better and that is the current configuration for Super Sport.
The current production model is the Super Sport, and it's a refined Series
7, which adds back some of the better features of the Series 6 which were
dropped from the Series 7 when Skystar owned the company. It's a nice
airplane and it's much wider in the cockpit than the Zenith. It's also
faster. It can be built as an eLSA, with the lowered gross weight, or as a
straight experimental with a 1550 weight, or now purchased as a preassembled
LSA from Kitfox Aircraft. It is a versatile aircraft that can go low and
slow, in the mountains, yet still is comfortable enough to long cross
country travel.
I looked at both, and chose the Kitfox. Glad I did.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of motoadve
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:15 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH
701
Im thinking of buying a plane , want something durable, easy to fly,
reliable, good glider in case of engine quit, and slow stall speeds
Im looking into the Zenith CH 701 or maybe a kitfox, for my needs what do
you guys think is best?
I want a Rotax 912 in the nose on either plane.
If you guys think kitfox is for me which model?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241101#241101
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07:54:00
========================p; - List Contrbsp;
&nbs=====================================================
=
Message 39
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| Subject: | Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH |
701
Actually, The Cessna 150 and larger Cessnas (170, 172, 175, 180, 185, 185,
etc.) are of SEMI-monocoque construction.
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 6:51 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or
a CH 701
You realize this will be a biased group! At least I hope it will be a
biased group.
The Zenith is a good performer... as long as the power is on. It will glide
better than the proverbial manhole cover but I have heard not as well as the
'fox.
The Zenith is a monocoque construction which means it derives its strength
from the shape of the aluminium skins. Get a small dent in one and you may
destroy the integrity of the plane until that particular skin is replaced.
The Cessna 150 also has this particular type of construction. It is light
and strong as long as you don't dent it.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH |
701
I also looked at both the Kitfox and the CH-701 when I was deciding which plane
to buy. I have a friend with a Kitfox Series 4 with a 582 and a friend with
a CH-701 with the Rotax 912. I already have a rotax 912-S so that was a given
for me no matter which plane I built. After looking at each plane and its performance,
the Kitfox winds, by a HUGE margin.
The Kitfix is faster, more agile, and will run circles around the CH-701. The
Kitfox is also every bit as good at STOL as the Zenair 701. Now you may ask
how is this possible given the CH-701's obvious STOL design, and that is simple
! The Kitfox has a much higher aspect ratio ( more efficent ) wing. If you
look closely at the CH-701, you will notice that it has very short wings, exactly
what you do NOT want if you want to take off and land slow. You will also
notice that the CH 701 wing starts to disappear more than a foot from each
side of the cockpit, and there is NO wing at all above the cockpit on that plane.
So the Zenair CH-701 takes an already too short wing, and gives up another
5 feet by not continuing any kind of airfoil over the cockpit, and very little
wing right beside the fuselage. To compensate for this, the CH-701 designers
had to make a ridiculously thick and inefficient airfoil to enable the plane
to take off and land slowly. Unfortunately, the plane is draggy, slow, has
a horrible glide, and is just a real DOG in the air. STOL is the only thing
the Zenair CH-701 is good at.
The Kitfox has a very efficient wing that has low drag at higher speeds, and has
enough wingspan to slow down and fly well at low airspeeds without resorting
to a ridiculously thick and inefficient airfoil.
As far as being difficult to fly, you would master either airplane given proper
training and hours of flight time. The Kitfox is much more enjoyable to fly
than the CH-701 as it is lighter on the controls and more agile. After doing
some research, the choice to buy the Kitfox over the Zenith CH-701 was easy,
the Kitfox was better by a huge margin !!!
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241155#241155
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH |
701
Thanks a lot for the replies.
Wouldnt the CH 701 be safer at a stall speed of 30mph instead of 37of the kitfox
4 or 41 in the Super sport?
According to this numbers the Kitfox will stop flying before the CH 701 in case
of an emergency.
Im not expert at all so flame away.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241159#241159
Message 42
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| Subject: | Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH |
701
Point! They do have a steel frame around the cockpit. But one good dent in
the rear fuse will ground them.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Hart
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or
a CH 701
Actually, The Cessna 150 and larger Cessnas (170, 172, 175, 180, 185, 185,
etc.) are of SEMI-monocoque construction.
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 6:51 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or
a CH 701
You realize this will be a biased group! At least I hope it will be a
biased group.
The Zenith is a good performer... as long as the power is on. It will glide
better than the proverbial manhole cover but I have heard not as well as the
'fox.
The Zenith is a monocoque construction which means it derives its strength
from the shape of the aluminium skins. Get a small dent in one and you may
destroy the integrity of the plane until that particular skin is replaced.
The Cessna 150 also has this particular type of construction. It is light
and strong as long as you don't dent it.
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or |
a CH 701
Sorry no flame here. To get the 30 mph stall the Zenith has to attain a
pretty extreme attitude and basically hang on the prop. Not the best
procedure for a power out landing. On the other hand I make almost every
landing on floats a power off final to touchdown.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of motoadve
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:06 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or
a CH 701
Thanks a lot for the replies.
Wouldnt the CH 701 be safer at a stall speed of 30mph instead of 37of the
kitfox 4 or 41 in the Super sport?
According to this numbers the Kitfox will stop flying before the CH 701 in
case of an emergency.
Im not expert at all so flame away.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241159#241159
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Charging system trouble shooting |
So does it matter about the grounding so much now that the type of regulator is
clarified? What is a logical starting point for trouble shooting, assuming the
battery is fine, and the mags are fine?
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
Just about ready to take my check ride.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241173#241173
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