Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:17 AM - Making tape stick (Catz631@aol.com)
2. 06:08 AM - 582UL cooling system (Bob Brennan)
3. 06:08 AM - Re: Making tape stick (Dee Young)
4. 06:11 AM - Re: Making tape stick (Gary)
5. 07:50 AM - N14ZM pics (Danny)
6. 08:08 AM - Re: Making tape stick (Lowell Fitt)
7. 08:19 AM - Re: N14ZM pics (darinh)
8. 08:24 AM - Re: N14ZM pics (Vic Baker)
9. 09:10 AM - Re: Making tape stick (Rexinator)
10. 09:22 AM - Paint question (Marco Menezes)
11. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. What to use (Noel Loveys)
12. 09:59 AM - Re: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. What to use (Noel Loveys)
13. 10:07 AM - Re: Making tape stick (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
14. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (Noel Loveys)
15. 10:23 AM - Re: 582UL cooling system (Guy Buchanan)
16. 10:26 AM - Re: 582UL cooling system (dave)
17. 10:27 AM - Re: VG generators (dave)
18. 10:32 AM - Kitfox vs. Zenith (Patrick Best)
19. 10:35 AM - Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (dave)
20. 11:30 AM - Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith (n85ae)
21. 11:37 AM - Re: Paint question (n85ae)
22. 12:29 PM - Re: N14ZM pics (fox5flyer)
23. 12:45 PM - Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith (Gig Giacona)
24. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. What to use (Lowell Fitt)
25. 12:54 PM - Re: VG generators (Lowell Fitt)
26. 01:12 PM - Re: 582UL cooling system (Dwight Purdy)
27. 01:34 PM - Re: 582UL cooling system (Bob Brennan)
28. 01:35 PM - Re: VG generators (Clint Bazzill)
29. 01:43 PM - Re: VG generators (Clint Bazzill)
30. 02:19 PM - Re: VG generators (fox5flyer)
31. 02:50 PM - Re: 582UL cooling system (Guy Buchanan)
32. 02:53 PM - Re: VG generators (Guy Buchanan)
33. 02:56 PM - Re: 582UL cooling system (patrick reilly)
34. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (patrick reilly)
35. 03:19 PM - Re: N14ZM pics (Rueb, Duane)
36. 04:11 PM - Re: VG generators (Lowell Fitt)
37. 05:05 PM - Re: VG generators (Noel Loveys)
38. 05:17 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. What to use (Noel Loveys)
39. 05:25 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith (Noel Loveys)
40. 05:41 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith (Noel Loveys)
41. 05:43 PM - Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith (n85ae)
42. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701 (Noel Loveys)
43. 05:52 PM - Re: 582UL cooling system (Noel Loveys)
44. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: VG generators (Clint Bazzill)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Making tape stick |
Hard to come up with a proper name for this subject. Anyway, I am always
dressing up my airplane and recently I applied 1/8 inch vinyl trim tape around
the bumps on my radial style cowl. It is a very tight turn around the front
part and after a week it lost its adhesion and the tape is buckling and
looks bad. Does anyone know of a clear adhesive enhancer I could apply to the
surface to get the tape to stick ? (the tape is several months old)
If this doesn't work then I will have to buy matched paint and stripe it.
I would rather not do this as it takes a quart minimum, rather expensive and
requires a steady hand. Tape trim has worked well for the rest of my
aircraft.
Thanks!
Dick Maddux
Pensacola, Fl
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
Aprilfooter427NO62)
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| Subject: | 582UL cooling system |
I've searched the all of the Rotax websites that I know about and can't find
good information on the care-and-feeding of my 582's cooling system, so I'm
hoping you guys can give me some pointers.
I haven't flown since November and want to get everything ready to go for
the season. First problem is my water temperature gauge which went
silly-buggers on the last few flights and I have bought an EIS which I will
be installing before flying.
Second problem is that I noticed leakage out of a lower radiator hose during
the winter. I had tested the coolant as good down to -20F before the freezes
set in. The plane is stored in a barn but it is not heated. I assume I could
have lost some coolant and need to fix the hose that leaked.
My real problem is that I have not worked on the cooling system yet. It's a
1990 582UL (grey head I think it is called) with a factory-supplied
radiator. I charged the battery and started the engine but did not want to
run it for long in case there is no/bad coolant.
Where do I start? I took off the pressure cap and there was coolant about 1"
down in the tube and the overflow bottle is 1/2 full. I really should drain
and fill (and "burp"? what's that?) the system but need to learn a LOT
first, either from you guys or a pointer to some good documentation.
Thanks in advance
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
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| Subject: | Making tape stick |
Dick
Try pre-cleaning the area with rubbing alchol prior to applying the tape. T
his works real well for other applications.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
From: Catz631@aol.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Making tape stick
Hard to come up with a proper name for this subject. Anyway=2C I am always
dressing up my airplane and recently I applied 1/8 inch vinyl trim tape aro
und the bumps on my radial style cowl. It is a very tight turn around the f
ront part and after a week it lost its adhesion and the tape is buckling an
d looks bad. Does anyone know of a clear adhesive enhancer I could apply to
the surface to get the tape to stick ? (the tape is several months old)
If this doesn't work then I will have to buy matched paint and stripe it.
I would rather not do this as it takes a quart minimum=2C rather expensive
and requires a steady hand. Tape trim has worked well for the rest of my ai
rcraft.
Thanks!
Dick Maddux
Pensacola=2C Fl
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
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| Subject: | Re: Making tape stick |
Most of my rc models are covered in peel and stick sign vinyl. What works for
me is to wipe the surface and your fingertips with 99% rubbing alcohol so everything
is squeaky clean. Apply the vinyl. Hit it lightly with a heat gun and
rub it in with a gloved finger at the same time. The heat gun removes the tension
in the stretched vinyl and gives the adhesive a jolt. This might prevent
the vinyl form deforming on that hot engine cowl.
--------
Gary Del Bel Belluz
Toronto, IV / 912UL
Just getting started
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241411#241411
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Here are some pics of N14ZM.
http://img4.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img4/2589/12408050311g8.smil
Danny Melnik
F1 N14ZM
Rocket Factory
Melbourne, FL
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Making tape stick |
Dick,
If the previous suggestions don't fix the problem, pin stripe paint is
available in half pints for about $15. Check the link.
http://www.eastwoodco.com/ click on painting and pinstriping then One
Stop.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: <Catz631@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:13 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Making tape stick
> Hard to come up with a proper name for this subject. Anyway, I am always
> dressing up my airplane and recently I applied 1/8 inch vinyl trim tape
> around
> the bumps on my radial style cowl. It is a very tight turn around the
> front
> part and after a week it lost its adhesion and the tape is buckling and
> looks bad. Does anyone know of a clear adhesive enhancer I could apply to
> the
> surface to get the tape to stick ? (the tape is several months old)
> If this doesn't work then I will have to buy matched paint and stripe it.
> I would rather not do this as it takes a quart minimum, rather expensive
> and
> requires a steady hand. Tape trim has worked well for the rest of my
> aircraft.
> Thanks!
> Dick Maddux
> Pensacola, Fl
> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2
> easy
> steps!
> Aprilfooter427NO62)
>
Message 7
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Danny,
Wow, absolutely awesome Rocket! I really like the paint scheme...very nice! One
question though...I thought the F1 had a tapered wing? I know the Harmon rocket
has the "Hershey Bar" but I though it had a rounded front half canopy not
the straight "fighter style" like yours has. Is this an F1 or a Harmon or a
combination of both? Either way, I am extremely jealous!
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241435#241435
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Well Done! Beautiful airplane.
Vic Baker
S7 912S Warp
Phase 1 flight testing
Carson City, Nv
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny
To: rv-list@matronics.com ; rocket-list@matronics.com ;
kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:45 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: N14ZM pics
Here are some pics of N14ZM.
http://img4.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img4/2589/12408050311
g8.smil
Danny Melnik
F1 N14ZM
Rocket Factory
Melbourne, FL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Can't afford a new spring wardrobe? Go shopping in your closet
instead!
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Making tape stick |
Not sure there is another solution other than consider cutting sheet
adhesive vinyl to apply like a decal. There are of course folks that can
make custom cut vinyl signs who may have the software to make custom shapes.
I've seen booths in fleamarkets that make vinyl signs. Might be reasonable.
Rex Hefferan
Colorado M2/582
Catz631@aol.com wrote:
> Hard to come up with a proper name for this subject. Anyway, I am
> always dressing up my airplane and recently I applied 1/8 inch vinyl
> trim tape around the bumps on my radial style cowl. It is a very tight
> turn around the front part and after a week it lost its adhesion and
> the tape is buckling and looks bad. Does anyone know of a clear
> adhesive enhancer I could apply to the surface to get the tape to
> stick ? (the tape is several months old)
> If this doesn't work then I will have to buy matched paint and stripe
> it. I would rather not do this as it takes a quart minimum, rather
> expensive and requires a steady hand. Tape trim has worked well for
> the rest of my aircraft.
> Thanks!
> Dick Maddux
> Pensacola, Fl
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 10
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I'm painting the bumps on my cowling which had been previously painted with
many coats of-glossy Polar White Aerothane. I've masked and sanded the b
umps to remove gloss. What should I use to clean or treat the surface befor
e painting to insure good adhesion? Will regular Stitts enamel stick to Aer
othane if surface is prepared as I've described?
-
Any advice would be appreciated.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90-C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
GSC=0A=0A=0A
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. What |
to use
There are very few if any places where the tube is closed off inside a weld.
I was told that this is because it would cause twisting of the joint. So
basically you only need one hole. The turning of the plane with the tube
seal in it is how to get the entire interior of the tubing coated. Then
drain out the excess. Just about the only welds that won't be hollow will
be if there are any welds to flat steel.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:14 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum.
What to use
Noel,
right now my Kit is sitting in the garage within 50 feet of salt water, to
get it any closer I would have to put it on floats ;) I really like the
idea of treating the inside of the 4130 steel tubing, I bought a can of Tube
Seal, but have been wondering about putting it in. Are there holes in all
the cross members, and welded parts of that frame ? There are so many
different tubes, I was wondering if I would have to drill a small hole in
every tube ??? The time to do this is definitely before getting to far,
later on it wont be an option.
The tubing is powder coated, but there are always scratches, and 4130 parts
that need to be coated, and my friend even had places where the metal was
not prepped well and the powder coating was coming off. So I am
anticipating having to re-prime some areas myself.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241388#241388
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. What |
to use
For the powder coat fix up try to get epoxy paint the same colour as the
powder coat. Marine shops have it in just about any colour you will ever
want.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:14 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum.
What to use
Noel,
right now my Kit is sitting in the garage within 50 feet of salt water, to
get it any closer I would have to put it on floats ;) I really like the
idea of treating the inside of the 4130 steel tubing, I bought a can of Tube
Seal, but have been wondering about putting it in. Are there holes in all
the cross members, and welded parts of that frame ? There are so many
different tubes, I was wondering if I would have to drill a small hole in
every tube ??? The time to do this is definitely before getting to far,
later on it wont be an option.
The tubing is powder coated, but there are always scratches, and 4130 parts
that need to be coated, and my friend even had places where the metal was
not prepped well and the powder coating was coming off. So I am
anticipating having to re-prime some areas myself.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241388#241388
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Making tape stick |
On Mon, April 27, 2009 5:13 am, Dick Maddux wrote:
> Hard to come up with a proper name for this subject. Anyway, I am always
> dressing up my airplane and recently I applied 1/8 inch vinyl trim tape around
> the bumps on my radial style cowl. It is a very tight turn around the front
> part and after a week it lost its adhesion and the tape is buckling and
> looks bad. Does anyone know of a clear adhesive enhancer I could apply to the
> surface to get the tape to stick ? (the tape is several months old)
> If this doesn't work then I will have to buy matched paint and stripe it.
> I would rather not do this as it takes a quart minimum, rather expensive and
> requires a steady hand. Tape trim has worked well for the rest of my
> aircraft.
Dick - I have been recently working with Vinyl lettering for signs on vehicles.
I've
learned a little so naturally, I can spout off like a self-described expert who
has
actually little expertise (me). OK, with that terribly honest disclaimer out of
the
way, I think you should make the design in a vector graphics program such as Corel
Draw, Adobe Illustrator or AutoCAD. These programs create vector graphics as opposed
to raster graphics and are infinitely scalable so vinyl sign cutters can use the
output to make the pieces you need. The sign material is thinner than the vinyl
tape
you're using and since it will be cut in the shape you need, it will stick down
tightly without curling away. There is quite a bit of layout skill required in
my
opinion, meaning transferring the cut designs from the backing to the final
destination is a bit tricky.
So, to deal with that problem you can either do some practice, get some help from
the
people that you choose to cut your design or you can just do it in pieces. Maybe
have
the sign cutter just do the tight radius portions and you fill in the rest with
your
straight tape or transfer the entire cut pieces for each bump in sections. I can't
see
joints when the pieces are cut with a razor knife so if moving the finished cut
pieces
from the backing can be done in sections and no one will be able to see it.
If you use Corel Draw, save your output as "Adobe Illustrator" .ai file as well
as the
native .cdr and if using a cad program such as AutoCAD export it as IGES or DXF
so
other programs can use the input. Many programs including Adobe Illustrator can
import
DXF. Sign cutters use Adobe Illustrator frequently. Most CAD programs will output
drawings in DXF or IGES and there are a number of free CAD programs available.
I
personally see the CAD programs as easier to learn for this task than the programs
like Corel Draw and Adobe Illustrator. BTW, Adobe Illustrator is free to download
and
you can run it for a month before you have to buy it. But it is a pile of money
so,
unless you're going to be using it a lot, you's be better off to just have the
sign
cutting company do it for you. You can hand draw the things you want cut out and
they
can measure and enter the data into the program.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
"Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the
nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must
collectivize the nation because the people are so rich."
-- National Review founder William F. Buckley Jr. (1925-2008)
"What's called the public debt stands at $11 trillion and growing.
That pales in comparison to the federal government's unfunded
liability -- obligations that are not covered by an asset of equal
or greater value. Mike Whalen, former policy chairman of the
Dallas-based National Center for Policy Analysis, commenting on
last year's Social Security Trustees annual report on the state of
the Social Security and Medicare programs, said, 'The report on the
state of entitlement programs is rather grim -- the combined
unfunded liabilities of both programs are $101 trillion.' What that
means is that in order for government to make good on its promises,
Congress would have to put aside tens of trillions of dollars in
the bank today. Keep in mind that our GDP is only $14 trillion. In
the absence of massive tax increases or cuts in benefits, in order
to meet its promises Congress must cease spending on one in four
programs by 2020, such as education and highway construction, and
one in two by 2030, and by 2050 or so all federal revenue will be
spent supporting Social Security, Medicare and prescription drug
benefits. Such a scenario is unsustainable. There will be economic
and political chaos. Today's politicians are not likely to take
measures to avoid the coming chaos because senior citizens, the
major beneficiaries of Social Security and Medicare, vote in large
numbers and will exact a high political price. Plus, neither
today's senior citizens nor today's politicians will be alive in
2050. I'd be more optimistic if my fellow Americans were simply
suffering from congressional deception as opposed to their not
caring about the economic calamity that awaits tomorrow's
Americans."
-- George Mason University economics professor Walter E. Williams
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox |
or a CH 701
Vortex generators are made by many different firms. They are used on just
about every large aircraft going. Vortex generators and wing fences are
easily seen on the DHC-2 Otter. The idea is if you can cause tiny vortices
to form on the top of the wing then the air passing over the wing will
remain intact with the top of the wing at steeper angles of attack giving
more lift at slower speeds. Obviously there is a point of diminishing
returns.
The most important factor of installing vortex generators is to find the
right spot on the wing chord to place them. Generally this is around 10%
chord but may be as far aft as thickest point of the chord.
Dave has installed vortex generators to the bottom of his cowl. They cause
more air to pass through his radiator for better cooling. Others have put
them on the bottom of the horizontal stabs where they give more elevator
control in the flare.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox
or a CH 701
At 11:50 AM 4/26/2009, you wrote:
So vortex generators are made /tested and sold by the Kitfox factory? or is
just an aftermarket product?
Is not totally tested yet?
Hi,
I think I missed your name. Here on the Kitfox list we encourage you
to put your full name, location, and aircraft status/type in your signature.
I think Lowell will tell you that VG's have been rather thoroughly
tested on Kitfoxes with little improvement shown. (See the archives for lots
of talk and a little data.) What HAS been shown to work is leading edge
slats. We had one fellow claim stall speeds in the 20's. What I want to see
is someone install the slats made by Turbine Cubs of Wyoming. These are
free-floating slats that supposedly dramatically reduce stall speeds while
reducing top end very little.
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 582UL cooling system |
At 06:05 AM 4/27/2009, you wrote:
>I really should drain
>and fill (and "burp"? what's that?) the system but need to learn a LOT
>first, either from you guys or a pointer to some good documentation.
Bob,
Actually there's not much to learn, as best as I can tell.
Step one is to make sure your coolant is silicate and phosphate free.
I use the Dex-cool, by Prestone. You sometimes have to dig through
the fine print on the label to make sure it's OK.
The only "trick" to filling a 582 is making sure you've got
the air out. Obviously the fill point must be the highest point in
the system, or there's no way you'll get the air out. Given that
there should be a small (1/4" ID) hose coming out of the "top" of the
head, and running to the fill cannister. (That is, the "highest"
point.) This assuming your engine is mounted upright. Once you've
filled the system you get to remove the hose from the head and
carefully let out any air. Then replace it and shake the beejeezus
out of the engine. Then carefully remove it and let out any air. Then
replace it and run the engine for a few minutes, then let it sit for
a few minutes, then carefully remove the coolant cap and then remove
the head hose and let out any air. Then do a ground run and watch
that the temperature goes up to the thermostat opening temperature,
then drops about 5 degrees, and then continues to climb to something
stable at less than 180F. If OK, go flying in the pattern to make
sure everything's OK. If so, fly somewhere where the food is great
and the wait staff curvaceous. (I wanted to say something else, but
after all I AM a moderator.)
One of these days I'm going to fabricate a trick little air
vent to put in the head line to facilitate venting. My old Porsche
924 had one and it was very convenient.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 582UL cooling system |
Bob,
Use Dexcool or equivalent and only DISTILLED water . Mine was good -35 F I just
dumped out about 3/4s of gallon the other day as my temps were continually
running over 180 F to 190 F . I replaced it with distilled water. Test flew
it last night and temps were about 15 to 20 F lower.I never did check it bout
I would guess it only good until about -5 f or so now. Water will cool
far better than antifreeze. You just have to replace it in the fall again. If
yours is old is likely time to change it anyhow. Check hose as well.
If you do not use distilled water and Dexcool or equiv. antifreeze Havoline another
good one. ( phosphate free ) you will likely see you RV seals get taken
out . your RV oil bottle will fill with antifreeze and will purge out and turn
into a creamy mixture and will start to penetrate your fire wall and you will
see this mess on your floor board. ASk me how i know :)
Kitfoxes are pretty good with upright engine for bleeding air out. Some time is
might help to take of rad hose on left side of engine by thermostat and fill
it full , this will fill rad too. Then put rest in at the Radcap. Run till
thermostat opens 135F and re check once it safe to take cap off.
Dave
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241470#241470
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: VG generators |
Clint those are high stall speeds, what does your plane weigh ?
is it SPeed wing ?
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241471#241471
Message 18
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| Subject: | Kitfox vs. Zenith |
I will say this about Kitfox... their owners seem more civilized and welcom
ing in the matronics forums!
I monitor kitfox and zenith email distributions, and right now they are tea
ring themselves apart over there. The CH650 (not STOL design) apparently h
as some "death-trap" issues and it's a complete flame war over there. Bewar
e!
:)
-Patrick
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH |
701
Clint i think some use a limiter on their flapperon handle.
I do not , mine deploy 33 degree when the handle is straight up on Model IV.
Works excellent for takes offs but over 20 degrees flapperons are useless for
landing plus you lose alot of roll control.
> [quote="clint_bazzill(at)hotmail."]The handle is straight up. ? degrees
>
> Clint
> Subject: Re: Newbie questions C which easier to fly a Kitfox or a CH 701
> From: dave@cfisher.com
> Date: Sun C 26 Apr 2009 18:41:52 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Clint C when you say full flaps - how many degrees is that ?
>
> Early models only got 10 to 15%
> IV went past 30 degrees . mine go to 33 degrees and only useful for taking off
quicker. I usually land with 20 degrees flaps in full stall 3 pointer
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer C Ontario Canada
> http://www.cfisher.com/
> Awesome *New Forum *
> http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
> Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241384#241384
>
> >====================
>
> _====
>
>
>
>
> > [b]
>
it
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241473#241473
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith |
That's exactly the reason all of us 801/701 builders requested a separate
ch701/801 page. To keep away from the 601 builders, who are all rabid.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241485#241485
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Paint question |
Most enamel, or polyurethane paints should work as well as the the surface
has been sanded with 320/400 grit. It the suface is aerothane, then MEK
should work, however, if you get through to the poly underneath it'll
melt that. So you might cleanup with denatured alchohol instead.
Regards,
Jeff
Kitfox Series 5, IO240B
Zenith CH-801 O-360 Builder.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241487#241487
Message 22
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Absolutely gorgeous, Danny. I expected nothing less from you.
When you have time, give us some stats, ie., empty weight, hp, prop,
cruise, gph at cruise, v speeds, etc. I'll be you're having a ball.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny
To: rv-list@matronics.com ; rocket-list@matronics.com ;
kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:45 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: N14ZM pics
Here are some pics of N14ZM.
http://img4.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img4/2589/12408050311
g8.smil
Danny Melnik
F1 N14ZM
Rocket Factory
Melbourne, FL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Can't afford a new spring wardrobe? Go shopping in your closet
instead!
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith |
And your Kitfox guy "JetPilot" aka Mike isn't helping. Please keep him over here.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=57550
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241517#241517
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. What |
to use
Noel,
I don't think I agree with this, at least as far as the Model IV Kitfox
airframe is concerned. I have cut out sections to modify certain areas and
there are no through holes drilled to connect the tubing interiors. Also, I
have done welding to add tabs and if the tube was not predrilled at the
weld, the heat would blow a vent hole in the weld as the pressure buillt up
inside the tube - each different tube.
Drilling to connect all interior spaces at cluster joints might be
preferred practice, but it was definitely not a practice when the Model IV I
am building was jigged up and welded. I would be happy to package up a
small welded section that I cut out for you to inspect.
For current welding practice I would definitely talk to the Kitfox factory.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and
Aluminum. What to use
>
> There are very few if any places where the tube is closed off inside a
> weld.
> I was told that this is because it would cause twisting of the joint. So
> basically you only need one hole. The turning of the plane with the tube
> seal in it is how to get the entire interior of the tubing coated. Then
> drain out the excess. Just about the only welds that won't be hollow will
> be if there are any welds to flat steel.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:14 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum.
> What to use
>
>
> Noel,
>
> right now my Kit is sitting in the garage within 50 feet of salt water, to
> get it any closer I would have to put it on floats ;) I really like the
> idea of treating the inside of the 4130 steel tubing, I bought a can of
> Tube
> Seal, but have been wondering about putting it in. Are there holes in all
> the cross members, and welded parts of that frame ? There are so many
> different tubes, I was wondering if I would have to drill a small hole in
> every tube ??? The time to do this is definitely before getting to far,
> later on it wont be an option.
>
> The tubing is powder coated, but there are always scratches, and 4130
> parts
> that need to be coated, and my friend even had places where the metal was
> not prepped well and the powder coating was coming off. So I am
> anticipating having to re-prime some areas myself.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
> could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241388#241388
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: VG generators |
Hi Clint,
For some reason I don't follow your test procedure and the goal of the test.
Most people when trying to land short will use power off to a three point.
With this configuration, vortex generators on the wings don't drop the stall
speed significantly. Are you suggesting that to land really short, to carry
a little power to flair in order energize the elevator to stall at a slower
speed. It sounds a bit counter productive.
Is it your procedure to approach with power off, then add a bit of power
just before the flair? Busy.
It seems to me that if in order to energise the elevator you need a bit of
power, there is something wrong with the horizontal stabilizer / elevator
design or geometry, or maybe a W/B issue.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
Still building
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:14 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: VG generators
Hi all,
When testing for stall speeds, power off will not work with most Kitfox'es.
There is just not enough elevator control and it will go into mush. Test
with enough power to detect stall... I have the vg's under stab. Over size
model IV elevator and gap seal. The AC stalls 5 mph slower with them. 10
percent position of mc, that includes flaperons. Did tuff test with Air Cam
as chase plane. Video recorded and any position around 10 percent would
work well. I have calibrated my airspeeds and it these numbers that I used.
These are TAS
Stall speed clean without generators. 48 mph
Stall Speed with flaps no generators 43 mph
Stall Speed with generators no flaps 43 mph
Stall Speed with generator full flaps 38 mph
I did not list these in past as temp, altitude etc were all in this data.
What I listed is a brief summary of what was done. It's reduction in stall
is just about what most VG's on AC do.
Clint
Model IV-1200
1450 hours 912-ULS
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: 582UL cooling system |
Bob
You may not have to do anything to the leaking hose. I have a ea81 Subaru
on a gyro that does that every winter if it gets cold enough. Never leaks
the rest of year.
Dwight Purdy
Model II
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Brennan" <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 9:05 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582UL cooling system
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
>
> I've searched the all of the Rotax websites that I know about and can't
> find
> good information on the care-and-feeding of my 582's cooling system, so
> I'm
> hoping you guys can give me some pointers.
>
> I haven't flown since November and want to get everything ready to go for
> the season. First problem is my water temperature gauge which went
> silly-buggers on the last few flights and I have bought an EIS which I
> will
> be installing before flying.
>
> Second problem is that I noticed leakage out of a lower radiator hose
> during
> the winter. I had tested the coolant as good down to -20F before the
> freezes
> set in. The plane is stored in a barn but it is not heated. I assume I
> could
> have lost some coolant and need to fix the hose that leaked.
>
> My real problem is that I have not worked on the cooling system yet. It's
> a
> 1990 582UL (grey head I think it is called) with a factory-supplied
> radiator. I charged the battery and started the engine but did not want to
> run it for long in case there is no/bad coolant.
>
> Where do I start? I took off the pressure cap and there was coolant about
> 1"
> down in the tube and the overflow bottle is 1/2 full. I really should
> drain
> and fill (and "burp"? what's that?) the system but need to learn a LOT
> first, either from you guys or a pointer to some good documentation.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | 582UL cooling system |
I think it might be a while before I'm ready to fly all the way to one of
those curvaceous waitresses, but I do have a curvaceous co-pilot who is
anxious to "get it in the air" (no, I did not misspell that last word...)
There was a fair amount of green puddle under that radiator hose one day
during the winter, but the level under the cap and in the bottle stayed at
the top(?) I'm thinking the radiator leaked dry and am now hesitant to run
the engine for too long. Having run it just now for 2 minutes in 90 degree
sunshine the heads are hot and the tube by the cap is hot so I am assuming
there is circulation. The pipes to the radiator are cold, or as cold as they
can be on a mid-April 90 degree day.
The water temperature gauge is shot (swings full-scale back and forth) and
will be the next thing I replace but I wanted the engine and cooling system
working properly first before I start making changes.
I am thinking that I am not running it enough to open the thermostat and the
radiator is empty. Is that possible? Does filling a cold system through the
cap fill the radiator too? And how would I drain the system since the
coolant is at least 3 years old and I think it should be changed.
The hose coming out of the top of the engine is level with where it goes
into the copper tube below the cap so I think that if I level out the upward
stress-loop I won't need to take that hose off.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: 27 April 2009 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582UL cooling system
At 06:05 AM 4/27/2009, you wrote:
>I really should drain
>and fill (and "burp"? what's that?) the system but need to learn a LOT
>first, either from you guys or a pointer to some good documentation.
Bob,
Actually there's not much to learn, as best as I can tell.
Step one is to make sure your coolant is silicate and phosphate free.
I use the Dex-cool, by Prestone. You sometimes have to dig through
the fine print on the label to make sure it's OK.
The only "trick" to filling a 582 is making sure you've got
the air out. Obviously the fill point must be the highest point in
the system, or there's no way you'll get the air out. Given that
there should be a small (1/4" ID) hose coming out of the "top" of the
head, and running to the fill cannister. (That is, the "highest"
point.) This assuming your engine is mounted upright. Once you've
filled the system you get to remove the hose from the head and
carefully let out any air. Then replace it and shake the beejeezus
out of the engine. Then carefully remove it and let out any air. Then
replace it and run the engine for a few minutes, then let it sit for
a few minutes, then carefully remove the coolant cap and then remove
the head hose and let out any air. Then do a ground run and watch
that the temperature goes up to the thermostat opening temperature,
then drops about 5 degrees, and then continues to climb to something
stable at less than 180F. If OK, go flying in the pattern to make
sure everything's OK. If so, fly somewhere where the food is great
and the wait staff curvaceous. (I wanted to say something else, but
after all I AM a moderator.)
One of these days I'm going to fabricate a trick little air
vent to put in the head line to facilitate venting. My old Porsche
924 had one and it was very convenient.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
Message 28
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|
Hi Lowell=2C
That is one way to land short. But not shortest. Watch bush pilots land.
They carry quite a bit of power=2C they are flying on the back side of pow
er curve. They touch down and cut power. With power off in a Kitfox =2C
you probably will drop the airplane and be landing a lot faster. With pow
er off trying to land=2C not enough elevator=2C critical timing and probabl
y a rough landing. Got to get the airspeed slow and hold it there until to
uch down.
Clint
P.s. that 5 mph that you can fly does a lot.
> From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: VG generators
> Date: Mon=2C 27 Apr 2009 12:53:18 -0700
>
>
> Hi Clint=2C
>
> For some reason I don't follow your test procedure and the goal of the te
st.
> Most people when trying to land short will use power off to a three point
.
> With this configuration=2C vortex generators on the wings don't drop the
stall
> speed significantly. Are you suggesting that to land really short=2C to c
arry
> a little power to flair in order energize the elevator to stall at a slow
er
> speed. It sounds a bit counter productive.
>
> Is it your procedure to approach with power off=2C then add a bit of powe
r
> just before the flair? Busy.
>
> It seems to me that if in order to energise the elevator you need a bit o
f
> power=2C there is something wrong with the horizontal stabilizer / elevat
or
> design or geometry=2C or maybe a W/B issue.
>
> Lowell Fitt
> Cameron Park=2C CA
> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
> Still building
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
> To: "Kitfox list" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday=2C April 26=2C 2009 10:14 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: VG generators
>
>
>
>
> Hi all=2C
>
>
>
> When testing for stall speeds=2C power off will not work with most Kitfox
'es.
> There is just not enough elevator control and it will go into mush. Test
> with enough power to detect stall... I have the vg's under stab. Over siz
e
> model IV elevator and gap seal. The AC stalls 5 mph slower with them. 10
> percent position of mc=2C that includes flaperons. Did tuff test with Air
Cam
> as chase plane. Video recorded and any position around 10 percent would
> work well. I have calibrated my airspeeds and it these numbers that I use
d.
>
>
>
> These are TAS
>
>
>
> Stall speed clean without generators. 48 mph
>
>
>
> Stall Speed with flaps no generators 43 mph
>
>
>
> Stall Speed with generators no flaps 43 mph
>
>
>
> Stall Speed with generator full flaps 38 mph
>
>
>
> I did not list these in past as temp=2C altitude etc were all in this dat
a.
> What I listed is a brief summary of what was done. It's reduction in stal
l
> is just about what most VG's on AC do.
>
>
>
> Clint
>
>
>
> Model IV-1200
>
>
>
> 1450 hours 912-ULS
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 29
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|
For a good short field landing=2C you fly the aircraft as slow as possible
=2C with power to touch down. You adjust power to control altitude=2C elev
ator for airspeed. Check this video out for a demo. That extra reduction
in airspeed is important.
Clint
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfeMLQNe57E
> From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: VG generators
> Date: Mon=2C 27 Apr 2009 12:53:18 -0700
>
>
> Hi Clint=2C
>
> For some reason I don't follow your test procedure and the goal of the te
st.
> Most people when trying to land short will use power off to a three point
.
> With this configuration=2C vortex generators on the wings don't drop the
stall
> speed significantly. Are you suggesting that to land really short=2C to c
arry
> a little power to flair in order energize the elevator to stall at a slow
er
> speed. It sounds a bit counter productive.
>
> Is it your procedure to approach with power off=2C then add a bit of powe
r
> just before the flair? Busy.
>
> It seems to me that if in order to energise the elevator you need a bit o
f
> power=2C there is something wrong with the horizontal stabilizer / elevat
or
> design or geometry=2C or maybe a W/B issue.
>
> Lowell Fitt
> Cameron Park=2C CA
> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
> Still building
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
> To: "Kitfox list" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday=2C April 26=2C 2009 10:14 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: VG generators
>
>
>
>
> Hi all=2C
>
>
>
> When testing for stall speeds=2C power off will not work with most Kitfox
'es.
> There is just not enough elevator control and it will go into mush. Test
> with enough power to detect stall... I have the vg's under stab. Over siz
e
> model IV elevator and gap seal. The AC stalls 5 mph slower with them. 10
> percent position of mc=2C that includes flaperons. Did tuff test with Air
Cam
> as chase plane. Video recorded and any position around 10 percent would
> work well. I have calibrated my airspeeds and it these numbers that I use
d.
>
>
>
> These are TAS
>
>
>
> Stall speed clean without generators. 48 mph
>
>
>
> Stall Speed with flaps no generators 43 mph
>
>
>
> Stall Speed with generators no flaps 43 mph
>
>
>
> Stall Speed with generator full flaps 38 mph
>
>
>
> I did not list these in past as temp=2C altitude etc were all in this dat
a.
> What I listed is a brief summary of what was done. It's reduction in stal
l
> is just about what most VG's on AC do.
>
>
>
> Clint
>
>
>
> Model IV-1200
>
>
>
> 1450 hours 912-ULS
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: VG generators |
Agreed. That is some extreme short field work. Good video, however,
all that wind probably helped a lot.
I learned about approaching behind the power curve a long time ago and
it works. I have a short farm strip and I always (try to) land with
power on, nose high, and very slow which allows a steep approach. When
I chop power and retract flaps all flying is done so I need to be very
close to the ground before I do it. It takes a lot of timing and
practice and if I get it just right, I'm down and stopped in just a
couple hundred feet. Turbulence, cross winds, etc tends to require
some modifications, but most of the time it gets me in very short, even
with my heavy (880lb) S5 with no VGs.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 405+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: Clint Bazzill
To: Kitfox list
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 4:42 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: VG generators
For a good short field landing, you fly the aircraft as slow as
possible, with power to touch down. You adjust power to control
altitude, elevator for airspeed. Check this video out for a demo. That
extra reduction in airspeed is important.
Clint
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfeMLQNe57E
> From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: VG generators
> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:53:18 -0700
>
<lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Hi Clint,
>
> For some reason I don't follow your test procedure and the goal of
the test.
> Most people when trying to land short will use power off to a three
point.
> With this configuration, vortex generators on the wings don't drop
the stall
> speed significantly. Are you suggesting that to land really short,
to carry
> a little power to flair in order energize the elevator to stall at a
slower
> speed. It sounds a bit counter productive.
>
> Is it your procedure to approach with power off, then add a bit of
power
> just before the flair? Busy.
>
> It seems to me that if in order to energise the elevator you need a
bit of
> power, there is something wrong with the horizontal stabilizer /
elevator
> design or geometry, or maybe a W/B issue.
>
> Lowell Fitt
> Cameron Park, CA
> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
> Still building
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
> To: "Kitfox list" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:14 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: VG generators
>
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> When testing for stall speeds, power off will not work with most
Kitfox'es.
> There is just not enough elevator control and it will go into mush.
Test
> with enough power to detect stall... I have the vg's under stab.
Over size
> model IV elevator and gap seal. The AC stalls 5 mph slower with
them. 10
> percent position of mc, that includes flaperons. Did tuff test with
Air Cam
> as chase plane. Video recorded and any position around 10 percent
would
> work well. I have calibrated my airspeeds and it these numbers that
I used.
>
>
>
> These are TAS
>
>
>
> Stall speed clean without generators. 48 mph
>
>
>
> Stall Speed with flaps no generators 43 mph
>
>
>
> Stall Speed with generators no flaps 43 mph
>
>
>
> Stall Speed with generator full flaps 38 mph
>
>
>
> I did not list these in past as temp, altitude etc were all in this
data.
> What I listed is a brief summary of what was done. It's reduction in
stall
> is just about what most VG's on AC do.
>
>
>
> Clint
>
>
>
> Model IV-1200
>
>
>
> 1450 hours 912-ULS
>
>======================
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | 582UL cooling system |
At 01:28 PM 4/27/2009, you wrote:
>I think it might be a while before I'm ready to fly all the way to one of
>those curvaceous waitresses, but I do have a curvaceous co-pilot who is
>anxious to "get it in the air" (no, I did not misspell that last word...)
Well, if you can do that in a Kitfox then you are a much better pilot
than I am. ;-)
>I am thinking that I am not running it enough to open the thermostat and the
>radiator is empty. Is that possible? Does filling a cold system through the
>cap fill the radiator too? And how would I drain the system since the
>coolant is at least 3 years old and I think it should be changed.
It should not be possible. Your thermostat should have some small
holes near the top to allow air to bleed through as you fill. They
also supposedly help damp the thermostat response. You probably could
do to change the coolant. Simple remove a radiator hose, if your
radiator is on the bottom like mine, and let the system drain.
Unfortunately this leaves a bunch of coolant in the radiator. Ideally
you'd pull the radiator and drain it as well.
As an aside, two minutes of running will not get the thermostat open
and will leave the radiator cold, fluid or not. Unfortunately I can't
give you a time off the top of my head.
>The hose coming out of the top of the engine is level with where it goes
>into the copper tube below the cap so I think that if I level out the upward
>stress-loop I won't need to take that hose off.
OK, but make darn SURE there's no air in the head.
Oh, and I would fix the temp gauge FIRST. You need it for debugging.
If the thermostat's frozen you'll never know it until the head water
temp is way over 180, which, I understand, is very bad for your
rotary shaft seals.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
Message 32
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At 01:33 PM 4/27/2009, you wrote:
>That is one way to land short. But not shortest.
I suspect that ideal would be to land power off, but I've found it
impossible to hit the bulls eye at zero vertical velocity and at
stall. There's just way too much going on. After watching Mark and
Hal slaughter everyone at the last spot landing contest I came to the
conclusion that Clint's method was the only way it was going to
happen. My only problem with it is that it requires a very careful
assessment of gust factor. When you're pulling it in low and slow the
last thing you want is a 5-10 mph drop in head wind with the
subsequent stall. And since the stopping distance varies as the
square of the initial velocity, (assuming a constant deceleration)
Clint's right, the extra 5 mph is significant.
>
>P.s. that 5 mph that you can fly does a lot.
(38/43)^2 = 78% of the distance to stop.
(38/48)^2 = 63% of the distance to stop.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
Message 33
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| Subject: | 582UL cooling system |
Guy=2C Jeeez=2C don't start adding sex to this website! I already have a ha
rd time breaking away and spend too much time in front of this computer.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
> Date: Mon=2C 27 Apr 2009 09:12:02 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> From: bnn@nethere.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582UL cooling system
>
>
> At 06:05 AM 4/27/2009=2C you wrote:
> >I really should drain
> >and fill (and "burp"? what's that?) the system but need to learn a LOT
> >first=2C either from you guys or a pointer to some good documentation.
>
> Bob=2C
> Actually there's not much to learn=2C as best as I can tell.
> Step one is to make sure your coolant is silicate and phosphate free.
> I use the Dex-cool=2C by Prestone. You sometimes have to dig through
> the fine print on the label to make sure it's OK.
> The only "trick" to filling a 582 is making sure you've got
> the air out. Obviously the fill point must be the highest point in
> the system=2C or there's no way you'll get the air out. Given that
> there should be a small (1/4" ID) hose coming out of the "top" of the
> head=2C and running to the fill cannister. (That is=2C the "highest"
> point.) This assuming your engine is mounted upright. Once you've
> filled the system you get to remove the hose from the head and
> carefully let out any air. Then replace it and shake the beejeezus
> out of the engine. Then carefully remove it and let out any air. Then
> replace it and run the engine for a few minutes=2C then let it sit for
> a few minutes=2C then carefully remove the coolant cap and then remove
> the head hose and let out any air. Then do a ground run and watch
> that the temperature goes up to the thermostat opening temperature=2C
> then drops about 5 degrees=2C and then continues to climb to something
> stable at less than 180F. If OK=2C go flying in the pattern to make
> sure everything's OK. If so=2C fly somewhere where the food is great
> and the wait staff curvaceous. (I wanted to say something else=2C but
> after all I AM a moderator.)
> One of these days I'm going to fabricate a trick little air
> vent to put in the head line to facilitate venting. My old Porsche
> 924 had one and it was very convenient.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego=2C CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox |
or a CH 701
Has anyone made their own VG's. They look simple enough to form out of alum
inum sheet stock on a little bench break.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
From: noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Newbie questions=2C which easier to fly a Kit
fox or a CH 701
Vortex generators are made by many different firms. They are used on just
about every large aircraft going. Vortex generators and wing fences are ea
sily seen on the DHC-2 Otter. The idea is if you can cause tiny vortices
to form on the top of the wing then the air passing over the wing will rema
in intact with the top of the wing at steeper angles of attack giving more
lift at slower speeds. Obviously there is a point of diminishing returns.
The most important factor of installing vortex generators is to find the ri
ght spot on the wing chord to place them. Generally this is around 10% cho
rd but may be as far aft as thickest point of the chord.
Dave has installed vortex generators to the bottom of his cowl. They cause
more air to pass through his radiator for better cooling. Others have put
them on the bottom of the horizontal stabs where they give more elevator c
ontrol in the flare.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Monday=2C April 27=2C 2009 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Newbie questions=2C which easier to fly a Kit
fox or a CH 701
At 11:50 AM 4/26/2009=2C you wrote:
So vortex generators are made /tested and sold by the Kitfox factory? or is
just an aftermarket product?
Is not totally tested yet?
Hi=2C
I think I missed your name. Here on the Kitfox list we encourage yo
u to put your full name=2C location=2C and aircraft status/type in your sig
nature.
I think Lowell will tell you that VG's have been rather thoroughly
tested on Kitfoxes with little improvement shown. (See the archives for lot
s of talk and a little data.) What HAS been shown to work is leading edge s
lats. We had one fellow claim stall speeds in the 20's. What I want to see
is someone install the slats made by Turbine Cubs of Wyoming. These are fre
e-floating slats that supposedly dramatically reduce stall speeds while red
ucing top end very little.
Guy Buchanan=2C Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego=2C CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 35
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Danny & family
Sure, I will offer my congratulations also on a very beautiful job. This a
irplane looks like the personification of flight itself!
What a gorgeous piece of work.
Duane Rueb, N24ZM
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: N14ZM pics
Absolutely gorgeous, Danny. I expected nothing less from you.
When you have time, give us some stats, ie., empty weight, hp, prop, cruise
, gph at cruise, v speeds, etc. I'll be you're having a ball.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny<mailto:vft@aol.com>
nics.com<mailto:rocket-list@matronics.com> ; kitfox-list@matronics.com<mail
to:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:45 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: N14ZM pics
Here are some pics of N14ZM.
http://img4.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img4/2589/12408050311g8
.smil
Danny Melnik
F1 N14ZM
Rocket Factory
Melbourne, FL
________________________________
Can't afford a new spring wardrobe? Go shopping in your closet instead<http
://www.stylelist.com/spring-fashion/spring-style/shopping-in-your-closet?nc
id=emlweusstyl00000001>!
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: VG generators |
You got me there, Clint. I guess I am just not a bush pilot. I probably
fit in the catigory of most pilots. I am aware of the technique and likely
will try it once I am flying with the lift reserve indicator.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: VG generators
Hi Lowell,
That is one way to land short. But not shortest. Watch bush pilots land.
They carry quite a bit of power, they are flying on the back side of power
curve. They touch down and cut power. With power off in a Kitfox , you
probably will drop the airplane and be landing a lot faster. With power
off trying to land, not enough elevator, critical timing and probably a
rough landing. Got to get the airspeed slow and hold it there until touch
down.
Clint
P.s. that 5 mph that you can fly does a lot.
> From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: VG generators
> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:53:18 -0700
>
>
> Hi Clint,
>
> For some reason I don't follow your test procedure and the goal of the
> test.
> Most people when trying to land short will use power off to a three point.
> With this configuration, vortex generators on the wings don't drop the
> stall
> speed significantly. Are you suggesting that to land really short, to
> carry
> a little power to flair in order energize the elevator to stall at a
> slower
> speed. It sounds a bit counter productive.
>
> Is it your procedure to approach with power off, then add a bit of power
> just before the flair? Busy.
>
> It seems to me that if in order to energise the elevator you need a bit of
> power, there is something wrong with the horizontal stabilizer / elevator
> design or geometry, or maybe a W/B issue.
>
> Lowell Fitt
> Cameron Park, CA
> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
> Still building
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
> To: "Kitfox list" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:14 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: VG generators
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> When testing for stall speeds, power off will not work with most
> Kitfox'es.
> There is just not enough elevator control and it will go into mush. Test
> with enough power to detect stall... I have the vg's under stab. Over size
> model IV elevator and gap seal. The AC stalls 5 mph slower with them. 10
> percent position of mc, that includes flaperons. Did tuff test with Air
> Cam
> as chase plane. Video recorded and any position around 10 percent would
> work well. I have calibrated my airspeeds and it these numbers that I
> used.
>
>
> These are TAS
>
>
> Stall speed clean without generators. 48 mph
>
>
> Stall Speed with flaps no generators 43 mph
>
>
> Stall Speed with generators no flaps 43 mph
>
>
> Stall Speed with generator full flaps 38 mph
>
>
> I did not list these in past as temp, altitude etc were all in this data.
> What I listed is a brief summary of what was done. It's reduction in stall
> is just about what most VG's on AC do.
>
>
> Clint
>
>
> Model IV-1200
>
>
> 1450 hours 912-ULS
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 37
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|
I was trained to always do complete power off (idle) landings. When I
started flying the Kitfox I also started giving a shot of power at the flare
to level things off just before touchdown. Some times I would add power and
actually fly the plane onto the water. I actually started getting angry
with myself for using the power that way. Although it is a good procedure
for "glassy water".
What I found helped me get out of what I considered to be a bad habit was to
try to make every landing as short as possible. I also started carrying a
little more speed into the flare via a little steeper angle of descent.
The extra speed gave me more control to the flare. The idea is to have the
wing stall at the precise second the floats touch the water. Most landings
I am at full elevator up at the moment of touchdown. Once down I'll release
the backpressure on the stick slightly to prevent the plane from porpoiseing
during the run out.
I have in light winds, enough wind to tell where the water was, been able to
get the plane down and off step in around 300 ft.. I once landed a super
cub on EDOs downwind (3-6kt) in around 600 ft. I was so far from the dock I
took off flew half the length of the pond and landed again close to the
dock.
True glassy water conditions usually take about a mile or so. I round out
with a bit of power on just above the trees. And basically fly the shoreline
while descending slowly with the power on in a nose high attitude. When the
floats hit the water I slowly reduce power to the point where I can maintain
a step taxi.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: VG generators
Hi Clint,
For some reason I don't follow your test procedure and the goal of the test.
Most people when trying to land short will use power off to a three point.
With this configuration, vortex generators on the wings don't drop the stall
speed significantly. Are you suggesting that to land really short, to carry
a little power to flair in order energize the elevator to stall at a slower
speed. It sounds a bit counter productive.
Is it your procedure to approach with power off, then add a bit of power
just before the flair? Busy.
It seems to me that if in order to energise the elevator you need a bit of
power, there is something wrong with the horizontal stabilizer / elevator
design or geometry, or maybe a W/B issue.
Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
Still building
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:14 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: VG generators
Hi all,
When testing for stall speeds, power off will not work with most Kitfox'es.
There is just not enough elevator control and it will go into mush. Test
with enough power to detect stall... I have the vg's under stab. Over size
model IV elevator and gap seal. The AC stalls 5 mph slower with them. 10
percent position of mc, that includes flaperons. Did tuff test with Air Cam
as chase plane. Video recorded and any position around 10 percent would
work well. I have calibrated my airspeeds and it these numbers that I used.
These are TAS
Stall speed clean without generators. 48 mph
Stall Speed with flaps no generators 43 mph
Stall Speed with generators no flaps 43 mph
Stall Speed with generator full flaps 38 mph
I did not list these in past as temp, altitude etc were all in this data.
What I listed is a brief summary of what was done. It's reduction in stall
is just about what most VG's on AC do.
Clint
Model IV-1200
1450 hours 912-ULS
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. What |
to use
All the frames I've been working on have been Super Cub and Aeroncas. They
have all the welds not drilled but shaped so the weld is the outside of the
joint and there is nothing inside it at all. Similar to the welds you will
se on "Orange County Choppers". You will notice when they jig up a frame
tubing is always shaped on both sides before welding. If they weld in a
cross piece they always cut their tubes to fit together exactly and then TIG
weld the joint so there is little warping. The fitting part as I understand
it is the hard part of making cluster welds. I don't TIG weld myself and
the work I do with the MIG I wouldn't trust to fly. Evaluating welding jobs
was part of my training and several times We had a certified welder work on
planes at the AMO. ( CDN for FBO )
No need to package up the welded section but can you post a few pictures of
it? I'd appreciate that. If they are large files send them direct to
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and
Aluminum. What to use
Noel,
I don't think I agree with this, at least as far as the Model IV Kitfox
airframe is concerned. I have cut out sections to modify certain areas and
there are no through holes drilled to connect the tubing interiors. Also, I
have done welding to add tabs and if the tube was not predrilled at the
weld, the heat would blow a vent hole in the weld as the pressure buillt up
inside the tube - each different tube.
Drilling to connect all interior spaces at cluster joints might be
preferred practice, but it was definitely not a practice when the Model IV I
am building was jigged up and welded. I would be happy to package up a
small welded section that I cut out for you to inspect.
For current welding practice I would definitely talk to the Kitfox factory.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and
Aluminum. What to use
>
> There are very few if any places where the tube is closed off inside a
> weld.
> I was told that this is because it would cause twisting of the joint. So
> basically you only need one hole. The turning of the plane with the tube
> seal in it is how to get the entire interior of the tubing coated. Then
> drain out the excess. Just about the only welds that won't be hollow will
> be if there are any welds to flat steel.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:14 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum.
> What to use
>
>
> Noel,
>
> right now my Kit is sitting in the garage within 50 feet of salt water, to
> get it any closer I would have to put it on floats ;) I really like the
> idea of treating the inside of the 4130 steel tubing, I bought a can of
> Tube
> Seal, but have been wondering about putting it in. Are there holes in all
> the cross members, and welded parts of that frame ? There are so many
> different tubes, I was wondering if I would have to drill a small hole in
> every tube ??? The time to do this is definitely before getting to far,
> later on it wont be an option.
>
> The tubing is powder coated, but there are always scratches, and 4130
> parts
> that need to be coated, and my friend even had places where the metal was
> not prepped well and the powder coating was coming off. So I am
> anticipating having to re-prime some areas myself.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
> could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241388#241388
>
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith |
LOL
I read the reception he got over your way. I expect if anyone had written
the same thing in favour of the 701 here they would have gotten the same
reception.
I have often dreamed of a 601 on a set of amphib floats. I know it's not as
easy to beach especially where there are big rocks... Of course where there
are big rocks there are usually pretty big trees that will catch the wing of
any high wing float plane. In the mean time I enjoy my "Fox no end!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:15 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith
And your Kitfox guy "JetPilot" aka Mike isn't helping. Please keep him over
here.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=57550
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241517#241517
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith |
I'll bet he wouldn't like your choice of prop! It all looks impressive to
me.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:15 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith
And your Kitfox guy "JetPilot" aka Mike isn't helping. Please keep him over
here.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=57550
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241517#241517
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith |
Worse for me being a Kitfox builder/flyer, and a Zenith builder as well
i can't escape the ignorance no matter where I go!
Jeff
Gig Giacona wrote:
> And your Kitfox guy "JetPilot" aka Mike isn't helping. Please keep him over
here.
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=57550
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241573#241573
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox |
or a CH 701
Most are factory made of high density plastic which is easy to stick on.
I'm sure you could make them from "T" extrusion. They would be a lot
heavier.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox
or a CH 701
Has anyone made their own VG's. They look simple enough to form out of
aluminum sheet stock on a little bench break.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
_____
From: noelloveys@yahoo.ca
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox
or a CH 701
Vortex generators are made by many different firms. They are used on just
about every large aircraft going. Vortex generators and wing fences are
easily seen on the DHC-2 Otter. The idea is if you can cause tiny vortices
to form on the top of the wing then the air passing over the wing will
remain intact with the top of the wing at steeper angles of attack giving
more lift at slower speeds. Obviously there is a point of diminishing
returns.
The most important factor of installing vortex generators is to find the
right spot on the wing chord to place them. Generally this is around 10%
chord but may be as far aft as thickest point of the chord.
Dave has installed vortex generators to the bottom of his cowl. They cause
more air to pass through his radiator for better cooling. Others have put
them on the bottom of the horizontal stabs where they give more elevator
control in the flare.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Newbie questions, which easier to fly a Kitfox
or a CH 701
At 11:50 AM 4/26/2009, you wrote:
So vortex generators are made /tested and sold by the Kitfox factory? or is
just an aftermarket product?
Is not totally tested yet?
Hi,
I think I missed your name. Here on the Kitfox list we encourage you
to put your full name, location, and aircraft status/type in your signature.
I think Lowell will tell you that VG's have been rather thoroughly
tested on Kitfoxes with little improvement shown. (See the archives for lots
of talk and a little data.) What HAS been shown to work is leading edge
slats. We had one fellow claim stall speeds in the 20's. What I want to see
is someone install the slats made by Turbine Cubs of Wyoming. These are
free-floating slats that supposedly dramatically reduce stall speeds while
reducing top end very little.
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
Message 43
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| Subject: | 582UL cooling system |
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582UL cooling system
At 01:28 PM 4/27/2009, you wrote:
I think it might be a while before I'm ready to fly all the way to one of
those curvaceous waitresses, but I do have a curvaceous co-pilot who is
anxious to "get it in the air" (no, I did not misspell that last word...)
Well, if you can do that in a Kitfox then you are a much better pilot than I
am. ;-)
Not to mention contortionist! J
I am thinking that I am not running it enough to open the thermostat and the
radiator is empty. Is that possible? Does filling a cold system through the
cap fill the radiator too? And how would I drain the system since the
coolant is at least 3 years old and I think it should be changed.
It should not be possible. Your thermostat should have some small holes near
the top to allow air to bleed through as you fill. They also supposedly help
damp the thermostat response. You probably could do to change the coolant.
Simple remove a radiator hose, if your radiator is on the bottom like mine,
and let the system drain. Unfortunately this leaves a bunch of coolant in
the radiator. Ideally you'd pull the radiator and drain it as well.
As an aside, two minutes of running will not get the thermostat open and
will leave the radiator cold, fluid or not. Unfortunately I can't give you a
time off the top of my head.
The hose coming out of the top of the engine is level with where it goes
into the copper tube below the cap so I think that if I level out the upward
stress-loop I won't need to take that hose off.
OK, but make darn SURE there's no air in the head.
Oh, and I would fix the temp gauge FIRST. You need it for debugging. If the
thermostat's frozen you'll never know it until the head water temp is way
over 180, which, I understand, is very bad for your rotary shaft seals.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: VG generators |
My plane weighs 670 lbs. Started out at 634=2C added a lot of stuff=2C wou
ldn't remove anything I put on. Those are real numbers=2C not indicated ai
r speeds. Matches pretty close to the kitfox books.
Clint
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: VG generators
> From: dave@cfisher.com
> Date: Mon=2C 27 Apr 2009 10:23:59 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Clint those are high stall speeds=2C what does your plane weigh ?
> is it SPeed wing ?
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer=2C Ontario Canada
> http://www.cfisher.com/
> Awesome *New Forum *
> http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
> Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241471#241471
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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