---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/28/09: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:23 AM - bush gear (Catz631@aol.com) 2. 04:27 AM - Re: Making tape stickMaking tape stick (Catz631@aol.com) 3. 05:55 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation (W Duke) 4. 06:02 AM - Re: Making tape stick (Lynn Matteson) 5. 06:04 AM - Re: Kitfox vs. Zenith (Lynn Matteson) 6. 10:42 AM - Re: Making tape stickMaking tape stick (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 7. 10:51 AM - Re: Anyone know anything about the Raven (kitfox clone)? (earnestj0) 8. 10:53 AM - Anybody seen Rex Phelps lately..... (Lynn Matteson) 9. 11:08 AM - Re: Making tape stickMaking tape stick (Pete Christensen) 10. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation (patrick reilly) 11. 02:53 PM - Re: bush gear (patrick reilly) 12. 04:05 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints (Lowell Fitt) 13. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints (Lynn Matteson) 14. 05:18 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints (Noel Loveys) 15. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints (Noel Loveys) 16. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints (Lowell Fitt) 17. 07:02 PM - Re: Anybody seen Rex Phelps lately..... (Rexinator) 18. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: Venturi location - no suction (Cudnohufsky's) 19. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Anyone know anything about the Raven (kitfox clone)? Ellipse (Randy Daughenbaugh) 20. 08:09 PM - Re: N14ZM pics (Weiss Richard) 21. 08:32 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints (Noel Loveys) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:13 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: bush gear Pat, Be sure and give us a review when you get your gear mounted. Dick Maddux Milton,Fl **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ilExcScore428NO62) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:05 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Making tape stickMaking tape stick Thanks for all your help guys ! I had already used the alcohol to clean the area but had not tried the heat gun (which I will do). The computer programs to make decals are beyond me,I barely know how to use this one(but thanks Paul). If the tape doesn't work then it's off to Eastwood (thanks Lowell) Dick Maddux Milton,Fl **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ilExcScore428NO62) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:41 AM PST US From: W Duke Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation Been off the list for a few days while at SNF.- There is certainly advers e yaw with full flap roll control.- One can see why when at full flap a r ight aileron input results in a little more down on the left flaperon and t herefore more left drag and up flaperon on the right with less drag.- Now that we are using words like spooky I am thinking I will go back out and c ompare- 1 vs 2 notches-and see.- I just almost always use full flaps lately.- Certainly I wish there was more up trim- but I need more up fo r even one notch of flap.- John McBean makes something to help with this. --- By the way.- It was good to see John and Kitfox at Sun N Fun ag ain.- For me, if they had not had a presence there when I was kit shoppin g I would probably have not built a Kitfox.--I hope they sell a bunch o f airplanes and continue to have a presence in the east. Maxwell Duke S6/TD/IO240 Dublin, GA --- On Thu, 4/23/09, n85ae wrote: From: n85ae Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation Deke - I flew mine a few times, and played with the second notch, but honestly I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it, and the yaw, and roll control feel's weird, and spooky. I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:26 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Making tape stick I would suggest painting the stripes on with masked edges and a small spray gun. It is the only permanent way to do the job....and scores more points with the judges when it comes time to be judged...even if the judging is only done by your hangar buddies. It shows that you took some time (ok, a LONG time) and put some thought...and pride...into the job. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 635.2 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying On Apr 27, 2009, at 8:13 AM, Catz631@aol.com wrote: > Hard to come up with a proper name for this subject. Anyway, I am > always dressing up my airplane and recently I applied 1/8 inch > vinyl trim tape around the bumps on my radial style cowl. It is a > very tight turn around the front part and after a week it lost its > adhesion and the tape is buckling and looks bad. Does anyone know > of a clear adhesive enhancer I could apply to the surface to get > the tape to stick ? (the tape is several months old) > If this doesn't work then I will have to buy matched paint and > stripe it. I would rather not do this as it takes a quart minimum, > rather expensive and requires a steady hand. Tape trim has worked > well for the rest of my aircraft. > Thanks! > Dick Maddux > Pensacola, Fl > > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! _- > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:39 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox vs. Zenith Yeah, our moderators...bless their hearts...keep us pretty well in line by an occasional slapping around, : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 635.2 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying do not archive On Apr 27, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Patrick Best wrote: > I will say this about Kitfox... their owners seem more civilized > and welcoming in the matronics forums! > > I monitor kitfox and zenith email distributions, and right now they > are tearing themselves apart over there. The CH650 (not STOL > design) apparently has some "death-trap" issues and it's a complete > flame war over there. Beware! > > :) > > -Patrick > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:24 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Making tape stickMaking tape stick I have monitored this thread for a while and will offer no solution but some encouragement. The trim tape tear drop stripes on N195KF are 12 years old with no signs of coming off. Some of the half inch tape further back on the fuselage is lifting slightly. Maybe heat is the key. John Kerr Classic IV ----- Original Message ----- From: Catz631@aol.com Sent: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:26:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Making tape stickMaking tape stick Thanks for all your help guys ! I had already used the alcohol to clean the area but had not tried the heat gun (which I will do). The computer programs to make decals are beyond me,I barely know how to use this one(but thanks Paul). If the tape doesn't work then it's off to Eastwood (thanks Lowell) Dick Maddux Milton,Fl An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:27 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone know anything about the Raven (kitfox clone)? From: "earnestj0" I am a little late in response to this question. I was in Grangeville, ID not long ago and came across the 4 place Kitfox cousin designed by one of the same people that designed the Kitfox. He also designed the Avid. Unfortunately, I believe that only 1 completed airplane ever got built. The jigs and one airframe is partially comleted at Grangeville and looks quite interesting. It looks just like other Kitfox airframes, only a little bit bigger. Below is the link to information. I think if I had the money, I would buy an build the model that is left. But one would be willing to manufacture a lot of the parts. http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepEllipse.html Ted Kitfox Vixen V McCall, Id Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241693#241693 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:21 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Kitfox-List: Anybody seen Rex Phelps lately..... .....besides seeing his picture on a page of the newest Sport Pilot magazine? I didn't see his name anywhere, but there's no mistaking that bald spot, Rex. You just can't hide from the sharp-eyed viewers. : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 635.2 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:50 AM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Making tape stickMaking tape stick With model airplane pinstripe I have used some hobby shop thin cyanacrolate glue with a fine tip applicator around the edges of the stripe.. Be very careful. Once on it is stuck you can remove with cyanacrolate remover. Pete Kitfox III 912 Hell Paso. ----- Original Message ----- From: kerrjohna@comcast.net To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:37 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Making tape stickMaking tape stick I have monitored this thread for a while and will offer no solution but some encouragement. The trim tape tear drop stripes on N195KF are 12 years old with no signs of coming off. Some of the half inch tape further back on the fuselage is lifting slightly. Maybe heat is the key. John Kerr Classic IV ----- Original Message ----- From: Catz631@aol.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:26:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Making tape stickMaking tape stick Thanks for all your help guys ! I had already used the alcohol to clean the area but had not tried the heat gun (which I will do). The computer programs to make decals are beyond me,I barely know how to use this one(but thanks Paul). If the tape doesn't work then it's off to Eastwood (thanks Lowell) Dick Maddux Milton,Fl ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com ======== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:29 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation Hey Guys=2C Lowell Fitt has an elevator trim tab installation that if you t alk nice to him he will sell you the parts to install it yourself. I'm usin g the electric servos as he does. But=2C you could easily adapt it to cable control and with a little work you'll only spend peanuts for the whole set up. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL From: n981ms@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation Been off the list for a few days while at SNF. There is certainly adverse yaw with full flap roll control. One can see why when at full flap a right aileron input results in a little more down on the left flaperon and there fore more left drag and up flaperon on the right with less drag. Now that we are using words like spooky I am thinking I will go back out and compare 1 vs 2 notches and see. I just almost always use full flaps lately. Cer tainly I wish there was more up trim but I need more up for even one notch of flap. John McBean makes something to help with this. By the way. It was good to see John and Kitfox at Sun N Fun again. Fo r me=2C if they had not had a presence there when I was kit shopping I woul d probably have not built a Kitfox. I hope they sell a bunch of airplanes and continue to have a presence in the east. Maxwell Duke S6/TD/IO240 Dublin=2C GA --- On Thu=2C 4/23/09=2C n85ae wrote: From: n85ae Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Control Surface Flutter Mitigation Deke - I flew mine a few times=2C and played with the second notch=2C but honestly I do not like the handling of the plane and it makes me feel distinctly uncomfortable with them like that. It uses all the trim just to fly it=2C a nd the yaw=2C and roll control feel's weird=2C and spooky. I wouldn't go so far as to safe it's not safe to fly the plane that way but I sure feel insecure when they are deployed that much. Regards=2C Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240930#240930 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:49 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: bush gear Dick=2C I will. At the rate I'm going it might be awhile. I'm cooresponding with athe FAA now attempting to get the original or any N number assigned. And here I thought you just picked a number you liked=2C painted it on and went flting. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: bush gear Pat=2C Be sure and give us a review when you get your gear mounted. Dick Maddux Milton=2CFl An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:27 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints I did the deed. To illustrate the discontinuity of the tubing in the Kitfox, I took two sections I cut out of a couple of projects and attached filled balloons to the ends of the tubes. The yellow tubing came from an elevator cut to fit a trim tab. The blue tubing came from the hat rack area where that tubing was cut out to in an attempt to improve the shoulder harness attachment points. In the yellow tubing section, the long tube is the trailing edge with the tube rib the closed end tube. In the blue tubing section, what appears to be the long section is actually two tubes butted to the short piece which is continuous. Lowell ---- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:47 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. What to use > > All the frames I've been working on have been Super Cub and Aeroncas. > They > have all the welds not drilled but shaped so the weld is the outside of > the > joint and there is nothing inside it at all. Similar to the welds you > will > se on "Orange County Choppers". You will notice when they jig up a frame > tubing is always shaped on both sides before welding. If they weld in a > cross piece they always cut their tubes to fit together exactly and then > TIG > weld the joint so there is little warping. The fitting part as I > understand > it is the hard part of making cluster welds. I don't TIG weld myself and > the work I do with the MIG I wouldn't trust to fly. Evaluating welding > jobs > was part of my training and several times We had a certified welder work > on > planes at the AMO. ( CDN for FBO ) > > No need to package up the welded section but can you post a few pictures > of > it? I'd appreciate that. If they are large files send them direct to > noelloveys@yahoo.ca > > Noel > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:16 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and > Aluminum. What to use > > > Noel, > > I don't think I agree with this, at least as far as the Model IV Kitfox > airframe is concerned. I have cut out sections to modify certain areas > and > there are no through holes drilled to connect the tubing interiors. Also, > I > > have done welding to add tabs and if the tube was not predrilled at the > weld, the heat would blow a vent hole in the weld as the pressure buillt > up > > inside the tube - each different tube. > > Drilling to connect all interior spaces at cluster joints might be > preferred practice, but it was definitely not a practice when the Model IV > I > > am building was jigged up and welded. I would be happy to package up a > small welded section that I cut out for you to inspect. > > For current welding practice I would definitely talk to the Kitfox > factory. > > Lowell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:05 PM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and > Aluminum. What to use > > >> >> There are very few if any places where the tube is closed off inside a >> weld. >> I was told that this is because it would cause twisting of the joint. So >> basically you only need one hole. The turning of the plane with the tube >> seal in it is how to get the entire interior of the tubing coated. Then >> drain out the excess. Just about the only welds that won't be hollow >> will >> be if there are any welds to flat steel. >> >> Noel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot >> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:14 AM >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. >> What to use >> >> >> Noel, >> >> right now my Kit is sitting in the garage within 50 feet of salt water, >> to >> get it any closer I would have to put it on floats ;) I really like the >> idea of treating the inside of the 4130 steel tubing, I bought a can of >> Tube >> Seal, but have been wondering about putting it in. Are there holes in >> all >> the cross members, and welded parts of that frame ? There are so many >> different tubes, I was wondering if I would have to drill a small hole in >> every tube ??? The time to do this is definitely before getting to far, >> later on it wont be an option. >> >> The tubing is powder coated, but there are always scratches, and 4130 >> parts >> that need to be coated, and my friend even had places where the metal was >> not prepped well and the powder coating was coming off. So I am >> anticipating having to re-prime some areas myself. >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you >> could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241388#241388 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:25 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints For what it's worth, when I removed my horizontal stab supports (so I could weld on the larger 1/4" rod ends) and cut one end off, I could smell the line oil (tube seal) inside the tubing. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 635.2 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying do not archive On Apr 28, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > I did the deed. To illustrate the discontinuity of the tubing in > the Kitfox, I took two sections I cut out of a couple of projects > and attached filled balloons to the ends of the tubes. The yellow > tubing came from an elevator cut to fit a trim tab. The blue > tubing came from the hat rack area where that tubing was cut out to > in an attempt to > improve the shoulder harness attachment points. > > In the yellow tubing section, the long tube is the trailing edge > with the tube rib the closed end tube. In the blue tubing section, > what appears to be the long section is actually two tubes butted to > the short piece which is continuous. > > Lowell ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:40 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints Looking at the big blob of beading on the plue piece it doesn't surprise me that it is closed off inside the weld. The yellow one is a lot harder to tell and I'm actually surprised that it is just but welded without first being cut out and shaped. Thanks Lowell Noel Rhyme not intended -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints I did the deed. To illustrate the discontinuity of the tubing in the Kitfox, I took two sections I cut out of a couple of projects and attached filled balloons to the ends of the tubes. The yellow tubing came from an elevator cut to fit a trim tab. The blue tubing came from the hat rack area where that tubing was cut out to in an attempt to improve the shoulder harness attachment points. In the yellow tubing section, the long tube is the trailing edge with the tube rib the closed end tube. In the blue tubing section, what appears to be the long section is actually two tubes butted to the short piece which is continuous. Lowell ---- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:47 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. What to use > > All the frames I've been working on have been Super Cub and Aeroncas. > They > have all the welds not drilled but shaped so the weld is the outside > of the joint and there is nothing inside it at all. Similar to the > welds you will se on "Orange County Choppers". You will notice when > they jig up a frame tubing is always shaped on both sides before > welding. If they weld in a cross piece they always cut their tubes to > fit together exactly and then TIG weld the joint so there is little > warping. The fitting part as I understand it is the hard part of > making cluster welds. I don't TIG weld myself and the work I do with > the MIG I wouldn't trust to fly. Evaluating welding jobs was part of > my training and several times We had a certified welder work on planes > at the AMO. ( CDN for FBO ) > > No need to package up the welded section but can you post a few > pictures of it? I'd appreciate that. If they are large files send > them direct to noelloveys@yahoo.ca > > Noel > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell > Fitt > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:16 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and > Aluminum. What to use > > --> > > Noel, > > I don't think I agree with this, at least as far as the Model IV > Kitfox airframe is concerned. I have cut out sections to modify > certain areas and there are no through holes drilled to connect the > tubing interiors. Also, I > > have done welding to add tabs and if the tube was not predrilled at > the weld, the heat would blow a vent hole in the weld as the pressure > buillt up > > inside the tube - each different tube. > > Drilling to connect all interior spaces at cluster joints might be > preferred practice, but it was definitely not a practice when the > Model IV I > > am building was jigged up and welded. I would be happy to package up > a small welded section that I cut out for you to inspect. > > For current welding practice I would definitely talk to the Kitfox > factory. > > Lowell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:05 PM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and > Aluminum. What to use > > >> --> >> >> There are very few if any places where the tube is closed off inside >> a weld. >> I was told that this is because it would cause twisting of the joint. >> So basically you only need one hole. The turning of the plane with >> the tube seal in it is how to get the entire interior of the tubing >> coated. Then drain out the excess. Just about the only welds that >> won't be hollow will be if there are any welds to flat steel. >> >> Noel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot >> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:14 AM >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and Aluminum. >> What to use >> >> --> >> >> Noel, >> >> right now my Kit is sitting in the garage within 50 feet of salt >> water, to get it any closer I would have to put it on floats ;) I >> really like the idea of treating the inside of the 4130 steel tubing, >> I bought a can of Tube Seal, but have been wondering about putting it >> in. Are there holes in all >> the cross members, and welded parts of that frame ? There are so many >> different tubes, I was wondering if I would have to drill a small hole in >> every tube ??? The time to do this is definitely before getting to far, >> later on it wont be an option. >> >> The tubing is powder coated, but there are always scratches, and 4130 >> parts that need to be coated, and my friend even had places where the >> metal was not prepped well and the powder coating was coming off. So >> I am anticipating having to re-prime some areas myself. >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as >> you could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241388#241388 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:18 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints Maybe Kitfox LLC inhibits the frames at the factory. John would know for sure! Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 9:10 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints For what it's worth, when I removed my horizontal stab supports (so I could weld on the larger 1/4" rod ends) and cut one end off, I could smell the line oil (tube seal) inside the tubing. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 635.2 hrs Sensenich 62x46 Electroair direct-fire ignition system Status: flying do not archive On Apr 28, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > I did the deed. To illustrate the discontinuity of the tubing in > the Kitfox, I took two sections I cut out of a couple of projects > and attached filled balloons to the ends of the tubes. The yellow > tubing came from an elevator cut to fit a trim tab. The blue > tubing came from the hat rack area where that tubing was cut out to > in an attempt to > improve the shoulder harness attachment points. > > In the yellow tubing section, the long tube is the trailing edge > with the tube rib the closed end tube. In the blue tubing section, > what appears to be the long section is actually two tubes butted to > the short piece which is continuous. > > Lowell ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:12 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints Usually I give up by now, but here goes. Noel, lets say you are fabricating a fuselage on a jig. First the longerons on one side, top and bottom, are clamped into the jig. then the vertical stringers and angle supports are trimmed, as you discribe, to mate with each other without overlapping anywhere in a nice tidy cluster. What treatement do you give the longeron to ensure internal continuity. Do you notch it as you did the stringers or do you drill a hole at the center of the cluster? As you all recall, this thread started with advice on introducing a sealant into the Kitfox tube interiors as a corrosion preventive. With regard to the first paragraph, Kitfox did notch the tubing to get a close joint, but they did not drill or otherwise provide for continuity throughout the tubing interiors. And my opinion is this. I would not fly in an airplane that would have the number of holes drilled that would be necessary to protect every tube interior throughout the airplane, especially if the holes were drilled by an amateur builder. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 5:17 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints > > Looking at the big blob of beading on the plue piece it doesn't surprise > me > that it is closed off inside the weld. The yellow one is a lot harder to > tell and I'm actually surprised that it is just but welded without first > being cut out and shaped. > > > Thanks Lowell > > > Noel > > Rhyme not intended > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:34 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube > joints > > I did the deed. To illustrate the discontinuity of the tubing in the > Kitfox, I took two sections I cut out of a couple of projects and attached > filled balloons to the ends of the tubes. The yellow tubing came from an > elevator cut to fit a trim tab. The blue tubing came from the hat rack > area > where that tubing was cut out to in an attempt to improve the shoulder > harness attachment points. > > In the yellow tubing section, the long tube is the trailing edge with the > tube rib the closed end tube. In the blue tubing section, what appears to > be the long section is actually two tubes butted to the short piece which > is > continuous. > > Lowell > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:47 PM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and > Aluminum. What to use > > >> >> All the frames I've been working on have been Super Cub and Aeroncas. >> They >> have all the welds not drilled but shaped so the weld is the outside >> of the joint and there is nothing inside it at all. Similar to the >> welds you will se on "Orange County Choppers". You will notice when >> they jig up a frame tubing is always shaped on both sides before >> welding. If they weld in a cross piece they always cut their tubes to >> fit together exactly and then TIG weld the joint so there is little >> warping. The fitting part as I understand it is the hard part of >> making cluster welds. I don't TIG weld myself and the work I do with >> the MIG I wouldn't trust to fly. Evaluating welding jobs was part of >> my training and several times We had a certified welder work on planes >> at the AMO. ( CDN for FBO ) >> >> No need to package up the welded section but can you post a few >> pictures of it? I'd appreciate that. If they are large files send >> them direct to noelloveys@yahoo.ca >> >> Noel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell >> Fitt >> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:16 PM >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and >> Aluminum. What to use >> >> --> >> >> Noel, >> >> I don't think I agree with this, at least as far as the Model IV >> Kitfox airframe is concerned. I have cut out sections to modify >> certain areas and there are no through holes drilled to connect the >> tubing interiors. Also, I >> >> have done welding to add tabs and if the tube was not predrilled at >> the weld, the heat would blow a vent hole in the weld as the pressure >> buillt up >> >> inside the tube - each different tube. >> >> Drilling to connect all interior spaces at cluster joints might be >> preferred practice, but it was definitely not a practice when the >> Model IV I >> >> am building was jigged up and welded. I would be happy to package up >> a small welded section that I cut out for you to inspect. >> >> For current welding practice I would definitely talk to the Kitfox >> factory. >> >> Lowell >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Noel Loveys" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:05 PM >> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and >> Aluminum. What to use >> >> >>> --> >>> >>> There are very few if any places where the tube is closed off inside >>> a weld. >>> I was told that this is because it would cause twisting of the joint. >>> So basically you only need one hole. The turning of the plane with >>> the tube seal in it is how to get the entire interior of the tubing >>> coated. Then drain out the excess. Just about the only welds that >>> won't be hollow will be if there are any welds to flat steel. >>> >>> Noel >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot >>> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:14 AM >>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and >>> Aluminum. >>> What to use >>> >>> --> >>> >>> Noel, >>> >>> right now my Kit is sitting in the garage within 50 feet of salt >>> water, to get it any closer I would have to put it on floats ;) I >>> really like the idea of treating the inside of the 4130 steel tubing, >>> I bought a can of Tube Seal, but have been wondering about putting it >>> in. Are there holes in all >>> the cross members, and welded parts of that frame ? There are so many >>> different tubes, I was wondering if I would have to drill a small hole >>> in >>> every tube ??? The time to do this is definitely before getting to >>> far, >>> later on it wont be an option. >>> >>> The tubing is powder coated, but there are always scratches, and 4130 >>> parts that need to be coated, and my friend even had places where the >>> metal was not prepped well and the powder coating was coming off. So >>> I am anticipating having to re-prime some areas myself. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> -------- >>> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as >>> you could have !!! >>> >>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241388#241388 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:37 PM PST US From: Rexinator Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Anybody seen Rex Phelps lately..... Haven't seen him but I get email from him now and then. I don't think the Rexster is currently monitoring the list, but perhaps we shall see his reply soon. Rexinator Colorado M2/582 Lynn Matteson wrote: > > .....besides seeing his picture on a page of the newest Sport Pilot > magazine? I didn't see his name anywhere, but there's no mistaking > that bald spot, Rex. You just can't hide from the sharp-eyed viewers. : ) > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 635.2 hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Status: flying > do not archive > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:32 PM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Venturi location - no suction The one I saw was under the passenger's side door, not sure if it would matter though. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of skyring Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:17 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Venturi location - no suction Thanks Lloyd. Would that be under the pilot's side door? Just trying to figure out where the best blast from the prop would be. Kerry. ps to everyone. sorry about the size of that photo. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241314#241314 Checked by AVG. 8:29 AM Checked by AVG. 6:00 PM ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:21 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone know anything about the Raven (kitfox clone)? Ellipse Actually there are two Ellipses (??)) Well any way, two of these in Rapid City. They are being put together by friends of mine in the local EAA Chapter. Both are expected to fly this summer. They are neat planes, but very complicated wings - every rib is different. It is my understanding that when they fly they will triple the size of the fleet. I will have to check out that article. Randy -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of earnestj0 Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:51 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone know anything about the Raven (kitfox clone)? I am a little late in response to this question. I was in Grangeville, ID not long ago and came across the 4 place Kitfox cousin designed by one of the same people that designed the Kitfox. He also designed the Avid. Unfortunately, I believe that only 1 completed airplane ever got built. The jigs and one airframe is partially comleted at Grangeville and looks quite interesting. It looks just like other Kitfox airframes, only a little bit bigger. Below is the link to information. I think if I had the money, I would buy an build the model that is left. But one would be willing to manufacture a lot of the parts. http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepEllipse.html Ted Kitfox Vixen V McCall, Id Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241693#241693 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:39 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: N14ZM pics Danny, Outstanding Rocket. You must be pleased. When are you bringing it to Spruce Creek?-), the invitation is always there. I know a Rocket builder here who would like to see it, not to mention about 30 RV-8 folks and a 100 other pilot/builders. Have fun flying it. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL On Apr 27, 2009, at 10:45 AM, Danny wrote: > Here are some pics of N14ZM. > > http://img4.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img4/2589/12408050311g8.smil > > Danny Melnik > F1 N14ZM > Rocket Factory > Melbourne, FL > > Can't afford a new spring wardrobe? Go shopping in your closet > instead! > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:34 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints I would probably go along with you on that... but aren't the frames made at a professional company by experts with many years of training and experience? I watched a certified welder do a cluster joint one time. I figure it took him several hours to get ready to do the actual welding. I actually turned down a job e did for our AMO at one time. The joint was full of pin holes and slag all over the place. Well everyone can have a bad day. Just haven't yet figured out which one of us was having the hard day. Him for the poor welding job or me for having to bring it to his attention. His second try was excellent. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints Usually I give up by now, but here goes. Noel, lets say you are fabricating a fuselage on a jig. First the longerons on one side, top and bottom, are clamped into the jig. then the vertical stringers and angle supports are trimmed, as you discribe, to mate with each other without overlapping anywhere in a nice tidy cluster. What treatement do you give the longeron to ensure internal continuity. Do you notch it as you did the stringers or do you drill a hole at the center of the cluster? As you all recall, this thread started with advice on introducing a sealant into the Kitfox tube interiors as a corrosion preventive. With regard to the first paragraph, Kitfox did notch the tubing to get a close joint, but they did not drill or otherwise provide for continuity throughout the tubing interiors. And my opinion is this. I would not fly in an airplane that would have the number of holes drilled that would be necessary to protect every tube interior throughout the airplane, especially if the holes were drilled by an amateur builder. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 5:17 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints > > Looking at the big blob of beading on the plue piece it doesn't surprise > me > that it is closed off inside the weld. The yellow one is a lot harder to > tell and I'm actually surprised that it is just but welded without first > being cut out and shaped. > > > Thanks Lowell > > > Noel > > Rhyme not intended > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:34 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube > joints > > I did the deed. To illustrate the discontinuity of the tubing in the > Kitfox, I took two sections I cut out of a couple of projects and attached > filled balloons to the ends of the tubes. The yellow tubing came from an > elevator cut to fit a trim tab. The blue tubing came from the hat rack > area > where that tubing was cut out to in an attempt to improve the shoulder > harness attachment points. > > In the yellow tubing section, the long tube is the trailing edge with the > tube rib the closed end tube. In the blue tubing section, what appears to > be the long section is actually two tubes butted to the short piece which > is > continuous. > > Lowell > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:47 PM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and > Aluminum. What to use > > >> >> All the frames I've been working on have been Super Cub and Aeroncas. >> They >> have all the welds not drilled but shaped so the weld is the outside >> of the joint and there is nothing inside it at all. Similar to the >> welds you will se on "Orange County Choppers". You will notice when >> they jig up a frame tubing is always shaped on both sides before >> welding. If they weld in a cross piece they always cut their tubes to >> fit together exactly and then TIG weld the joint so there is little >> warping. The fitting part as I understand it is the hard part of >> making cluster welds. I don't TIG weld myself and the work I do with >> the MIG I wouldn't trust to fly. Evaluating welding jobs was part of >> my training and several times We had a certified welder work on planes >> at the AMO. ( CDN for FBO ) >> >> No need to package up the welded section but can you post a few >> pictures of it? I'd appreciate that. If they are large files send >> them direct to noelloveys@yahoo.ca >> >> Noel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell >> Fitt >> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:16 PM >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and >> Aluminum. What to use >> >> --> >> >> Noel, >> >> I don't think I agree with this, at least as far as the Model IV >> Kitfox airframe is concerned. I have cut out sections to modify >> certain areas and there are no through holes drilled to connect the >> tubing interiors. Also, I >> >> have done welding to add tabs and if the tube was not predrilled at >> the weld, the heat would blow a vent hole in the weld as the pressure >> buillt up >> >> inside the tube - each different tube. >> >> Drilling to connect all interior spaces at cluster joints might be >> preferred practice, but it was definitely not a practice when the >> Model IV I >> >> am building was jigged up and welded. I would be happy to package up >> a small welded section that I cut out for you to inspect. >> >> For current welding practice I would definitely talk to the Kitfox >> factory. >> >> Lowell >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Noel Loveys" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:05 PM >> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and >> Aluminum. What to use >> >> >>> --> >>> >>> There are very few if any places where the tube is closed off inside >>> a weld. >>> I was told that this is because it would cause twisting of the joint. >>> So basically you only need one hole. The turning of the plane with >>> the tube seal in it is how to get the entire interior of the tubing >>> coated. Then drain out the excess. Just about the only welds that >>> won't be hollow will be if there are any welds to flat steel. >>> >>> Noel >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot >>> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 12:14 AM >>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Corrosion Prevention - 4130 Steel and >>> Aluminum. >>> What to use >>> >>> --> >>> >>> Noel, >>> >>> right now my Kit is sitting in the garage within 50 feet of salt >>> water, to get it any closer I would have to put it on floats ;) I >>> really like the idea of treating the inside of the 4130 steel tubing, >>> I bought a can of Tube Seal, but have been wondering about putting it >>> in. Are there holes in all >>> the cross members, and welded parts of that frame ? There are so many >>> different tubes, I was wondering if I would have to drill a small hole >>> in >>> every tube ??? The time to do this is definitely before getting to >>> far, >>> later on it wont be an option. >>> >>> The tubing is powder coated, but there are always scratches, and 4130 >>> parts that need to be coated, and my friend even had places where the >>> metal was not prepped well and the powder coating was coming off. So >>> I am anticipating having to re-prime some areas myself. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> -------- >>> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as >>> you could have !!! >>> >>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=241388#241388 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.