Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:09 AM - Re: Re: prop questions (fox5flyer)
2. 05:54 AM - Re: Re: prop questions (Bob Brennan)
3. 07:13 AM - Re: prop questions (dave)
4. 07:19 AM - Re: Wheels (DeWayne Clifford)
5. 07:50 AM - Re: Wheels (Pete Christensen)
6. 09:21 AM - Re: Wheels (akflyer)
7. 11:48 AM - Re: prop questions (Paul A. Franz, P.E.)
8. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: Wheels (Lowell Fitt)
9. 01:35 PM - Re: prop questions (Fox5flyer)
10. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: prop questions (Bob Brennan)
11. 02:58 PM - Re: Re: Wheels (Lynn Matteson)
12. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: prop questions (Lynn Matteson)
13. 03:23 PM - attaching wing wiring (bob noffs)
14. 03:35 PM - Re: Wheels (jdmcbean)
15. 03:42 PM - Re: attaching wing wiring (Lynn Matteson)
16. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: prop questions (fox5flyer)
17. 05:24 PM - Re: attaching wing wiring (kirk hull)
18. 05:50 PM - Re: Re: prop questions (Noel)
19. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: prop questions (Noel)
20. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: prop questions (Noel)
21. 06:28 PM - Re: attaching wing wiring (Noel)
22. 06:33 PM - Re: attaching wing wiring (Lowell Fitt)
23. 07:03 PM - Re: Wheels (AKFLYERBOB)
24. 07:51 PM - Re: Re: Wheels (malpass-architect)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
I fail to see what a small crack in the tip of a (as yet type unknown) prop
blade has to do with a blade letting go at the hub. Again, my advice is he
should go to the manufacturer where the real experts can advise him and
leave the scare tactics and sales pitch to the politicians.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 406+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
>
> Here is what happens to them when they fail
> http://www.cfisher.com/gsc
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
Sorry to respectfully disagree here Deke but having recently had such issues
drilled into me so that I could get my Repairman's ticket I feel I need to.
Any grain crack or evidence of delamination in a wooden structure in an
aircraft application is reason to ground the aircraft until it is replaced,
especially in a prop. Nicks and dings to a certain size, with no evidence of
damage to grain or lamination, can be sanded and re-coated. In class we had
to evaluate actual rejected wooden parts to try and find the defect, some
were really hard to find.
Any grain crack or delamination in a prop blade can quickly propagate to the
hub with catastrophic results. No inspector would let an airplane fly with
that kind of defect, not even to get home.
I was the orignal reply to Jerry's question - recommending he send the
blades back to the manufacturer for inspection and replacement as necessary
and I stick by that, but as an inspector I would stamp that aircraft as
non-airworthy. It's not scare tactics, it is an FAA requirement.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: 05 May 2009 8:07 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: prop questions
I fail to see what a small crack in the tip of a (as yet type unknown) prop
blade has to do with a blade letting go at the hub. Again, my advice is he
should go to the manufacturer where the real experts can advise him and
leave the scare tactics and sales pitch to the politicians.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 406+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
>
> Here is what happens to them when they fail
> http://www.cfisher.com/gsc
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
Deke, Get the chip off your shoulder eh !!
this is a safety issue, A GSC prop from 1987 is 22 years old man. Might work fine,
but it way past TBO .
When you call it scare tactics ? What the heck that mean that you a moderator
and will not let others speak the truth and facts?
I SELL PROPS, I promote safety as well. Prop departure is scary, I have first
hand experience in flight do you ?
When was your last prop failure> ?
Dave < -- Facts from 3 decades of aviation not from the armchair .
Fox5flyer wrote:
> I fail to see what a small crack in the tip of a (as yet type unknown) prop
> blade has to do with a blade letting go at the hub. Again, my advice is he
> should go to the manufacturer where the real experts can advise him and
> leave the scare tactics and sales pitch to the politicians.
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 406+ TT
> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
> - Joseph Joubert
>
>
>
> >
> > Here is what happens to them when they fail
> > http://www.cfisher.com/gsc
> >
> >
>
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242780#242780
Message 4
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Pete , I would be very interested in that set , if he is not ! Please let
me know .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Christensen" <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wheels
> <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I know where you can get the wheels tires and brakes and landing gear
> assembly for $500.
>
> Pete
>
> Hell Paso
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <bjones@dmv.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>; <bjones@dmv.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 3:22 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Wheels
>
>
>>
>> I HAVE ESTIMATES OF $300 and $500 to weld brake disc attachment lugs on a
>> new Douglas wheel for my for my
>> Kitox IV
>> Anyone have a less costly shop that can Get it done
>> B Jones
>> N154K
>> 443 480 1023
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 5
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DeWayne, I'll contact the owner and give him your email address.
Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "DeWayne Clifford" <kitfox@bresnan.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wheels
>
> Pete , I would be very interested in that set , if he is not ! Please let
> me know .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pete Christensen" <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wheels
>
>
>> <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> I know where you can get the wheels tires and brakes and landing gear
>> assembly for $500.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> Hell Paso
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <bjones@dmv.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>; <bjones@dmv.com>
>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 3:22 PM
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Wheels
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I HAVE ESTIMATES OF $300 and $500 to weld brake disc attachment lugs on
>>> a new Douglas wheel for my for my
>>> Kitox IV
>>> Anyone have a less costly shop that can Get it done
>>> B Jones
>>> N154K
>>> 443 480 1023
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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that is robbery plain and simple. It should take no more than an hour, to weld
on 6 lugs. It he was real slow it may take 2 hrs TOPS. The average shop rate
around here is 90.00 hr. So you should be able to get them done for well under
200.00 I think a buddy paid about a 100.00 to get his done.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242794#242794
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
On Tue, May 5, 2009 5:06 am, fox5flyer wrote:
>
> I fail to see what a small crack in the tip of a (as yet type unknown) prop
> blade has to do with a blade letting go at the hub. Again, my advice is he
> should go to the manufacturer where the real experts can advise him and
> leave the scare tactics and sales pitch to the politicians.
Whoa! You sure got a couple violent responses to this posting! Who'd have known?
I
agree with your assessment for the most part though.
Comments were made suggesting this prop was beyond TBO. Hmmm, I'm not convinced
there
is a TBO per se, for wood props and hubs. TBO on props usually applies to ones
with a
pitch control mechanism. Maybe that "5 years, 5 hundred hours" condition that's
stated
for GSC is applicable.
Unless there is something you'd judge would cause that prop to have its tip crack
grow, I agree that it's probably OK to fly on. But if the crack is due to a tip
strike, that might mean the base has been weakened. If the crack is due to picking
up
gravel and damaging the finish, it is likely repairable. Several techniques can
be
used to force epoxy into the crack. Just like you can seal cracks in a windshield,
you
can force epoxy into a crack. My guess is that there has to be a pretty tight finish
intact all around the injection point for it to work though.
If you were the factory and your advice could subject you to liability, how would
that
temper your response? I might be inclined to utter in a knee jerk reaction - 'we
better get out of this business before the lawyers bankrupt us'. Some one else
might
react with a less fearful approach. Maybe, lets have a look before we tell them
we
can't stand behind any repairs made to this old propeller. Yet another might be,
let's
carefully inspect the bases and evaluate whether or not we can repair the cracks
at a
lesser cost than replacing one or all of the blades.
If the subject prop is a GSC, getting them in the loop seems to me will get you
on the
right track and you'll be relieved at knowing just what you're supposed to do.
--
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
PAF Consulting Engineers
Office 425.440.9505
Cell 425.241.1618
"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its
victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those who blissfully
and unawaredly enslave themselves. A truth's initial commotion is
directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn't the
world being round that agitated people, but that the world wasn't flat.
When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses
over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its
speaker a raving lunatic."
-- author Dresden James
Message 8
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Leonard,
I wonder if $100 would do it. I have often thought of how I would do it.
>From what I have experienced with the wheels supplied by Denney and later
Skystar, these are precision units. Clunky, Yes, but precision
never-the-less. The rotor fits snugly and the holes line up in any rotor
postion - and most importantly the rotor spins true.
Quick and dirty would give very poor rotor alignment unless you had the
already shaped and drilled tabs in stock that could be jigged and welded.
This, of course means you would either have to fabricate the jigs or have
them on hand. All this costs. Let's see - fabricate six lugs, drill and
tap them, position them precisely, weld in place, check for accuracy -
start over again.
I agree that $400 is a lot of money, but we are talking here of a production
run of two. I would love to see the $100 wheels.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:21 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Wheels
>
> that is robbery plain and simple. It should take no more than an hour, to
> weld on 6 lugs. It he was real slow it may take 2 hrs TOPS. The average
> shop rate around here is 90.00 hr. So you should be able to get them done
> for well under 200.00 I think a buddy paid about a 100.00 to get his
> done.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242794#242794
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
Bob, thanks for the respectful response. If you go back and read both of my emails
I think you'll see that we were saying the same thing. I was recommending
that Jerry go direct to the manufacturer for their opinion on the best course
of action. I did not recommend that he fly the airplane, nor would I ever
do that. More than likely GSC (if it was a GSC) would ask him to send in his
blades for inspection and may either recommend a new blade or all three. I said
this because it is very easy to give personal advice to someone over the internet
when you don't have to live with the result.
Deke
(The armchair pilot with 1500+ hours mostly TD)
Oh, yeah. I flew two hours this morning down to Midland MI and back. Had lunch
with a cutie and had smooth air both directions. Doesn't get much better.
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> Sorry to respectfully disagree here Deke but having recently had such issues
> drilled into me so that I could get my Repairman's ticket I feel I need to.
>
> Any grain crack or evidence of delamination in a wooden structure in an
> aircraft application is reason to ground the aircraft until it is replaced,
> especially in a prop. Nicks and dings to a certain size, with no evidence of
> damage to grain or lamination, can be sanded and re-coated. In class we had
> to evaluate actual rejected wooden parts to try and find the defect, some
> were really hard to find.
>
> Any grain crack or delamination in a prop blade can quickly propagate to the
> hub with catastrophic results. No inspector would let an airplane fly with
> that kind of defect, not even to get home.
>
> I was the orignal reply to Jerry's question - recommending he send the
> blades back to the manufacturer for inspection and replacement as necessary
> and I stick by that, but as an inspector I would stamp that aircraft as
> non-airworthy. It's not scare tactics, it is an FAA requirement.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242820#242820
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
Deke,
I absolutely agree with you on returning the blades to the manufacturer and
yes we were saying the same thing, I just wanted to add a bit of gravity to
the advice. I know we are experimental pilots and can do as we please, but
as a certified inspector I would reject a wood prop blade with a crack for
use without question, other than hung on a wall with a clock in it.
I will also respectfully disagree with Paul Franz (sorry Paul!) who agrees
with us "for the most part". Wood has grain and laminates, that once
separated can easily split along that separation. Using epoxy on the split
is like using epoxy on a small crack in a piece of glass. Despite the epoxy
the strength has been compromised and pressure on the surface could easily
propagate the crack or split, epoxy will not stop it. As I said earlier -
epoxy is a good fix for dings and dents and nicks in wood, but unacceptable
as a repair to a grain or laminate split.
Wooden propeller inspection requirements and repair procedures can be found
in detail in FAA document AC 43.13-1B - "Aircraft Inspection, Repair &
Alterations. Acceptable methods, techniques & practices".
And Paul if there are any aircraft part manufacturers out there that behave
like you described in your "If you were the factory and your advice could
subject you to liability..." response I would steer well clear of them, but
I don't personally know of any wood propeller manufacturer that in any way
fits your description so I don't think we should be trying to scare list
posters away from working with the manufacturers.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
Sent: 05 May 2009 4:34 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: prop questions
Bob, thanks for the respectful response. If you go back and read both of
my emails I think you'll see that we were saying the same thing. I was
recommending that Jerry go direct to the manufacturer for their opinion on
the best course of action. I did not recommend that he fly the airplane,
nor would I ever do that. More than likely GSC (if it was a GSC) would ask
him to send in his blades for inspection and may either recommend a new
blade or all three. I said this because it is very easy to give personal
advice to someone over the internet when you don't have to live with the
result.
Deke
(The armchair pilot with 1500+ hours mostly TD)
Oh, yeah. I flew two hours this morning down to Midland MI and back. Had
lunch with a cutie and had smooth air both directions. Doesn't get much
better.
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> Sorry to respectfully disagree here Deke but having recently had such
issues
> drilled into me so that I could get my Repairman's ticket I feel I need
to.
>
> Any grain crack or evidence of delamination in a wooden structure in an
> aircraft application is reason to ground the aircraft until it is
replaced,
> especially in a prop. Nicks and dings to a certain size, with no evidence
of
> damage to grain or lamination, can be sanded and re-coated. In class we
had
> to evaluate actual rejected wooden parts to try and find the defect, some
> were really hard to find.
>
> Any grain crack or delamination in a prop blade can quickly propagate to
the
> hub with catastrophic results. No inspector would let an airplane fly with
> that kind of defect, not even to get home.
>
> I was the orignal reply to Jerry's question - recommending he send the
> blades back to the manufacturer for inspection and replacement as
necessary
> and I stick by that, but as an inspector I would stamp that aircraft as
> non-airworthy. It's not scare tactics, it is an FAA requirement.
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242820#242820
Message 11
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I see a lathe being brought into service here....for the truing up of
the lugs' surfaces after the welding. The radial positioning of the
lugs' holes would have to be assured with a jig, but a small amount
of radial runout would not be TOO big a deal, but best to start with
a perfect radial runout and let the temperature have its way with it,
then chuck up the wheel and do a cleanup facing cut, and collect the
man's money. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 644.7 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On May 5, 2009, at 3:11 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Leonard,
>
> I wonder if $100 would do it. I have often thought of how I would
> do it.
>> From what I have experienced with the wheels supplied by Denney
>> and later
> Skystar, these are precision units. Clunky, Yes, but precision
> never-the-less. The rotor fits snugly and the holes line up in any
> rotor postion - and most importantly the rotor spins true.
>
> Quick and dirty would give very poor rotor alignment unless you had
> the already shaped and drilled tabs in stock that could be jigged
> and welded. This, of course means you would either have to
> fabricate the jigs or have them on hand. All this costs. Let's
> see - fabricate six lugs, drill and tap them, position them
> precisely, weld in place, check for accuracy - start over again.
>
> I agree that $400 is a lot of money, but we are talking here of a
> production run of two. I would love to see the $100 wheels.
>
> Lowell
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:21 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Wheels
>
>
>>
>> that is robbery plain and simple. It should take no more than an
>> hour, to weld on 6 lugs. It he was real slow it may take 2 hrs
>> TOPS. The average shop rate around here is 90.00 hr. So you
>> should be able to get them done for well under 200.00 I think a
>> buddy paid about a 100.00 to get his done.
>>
>> --------
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
>> Soldotna AK
>> Avid "C" / Mk IV
>> 582 IVO IFA
>> Full Lotus 1260
>> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>>
>> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242794#242794
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
Better to be out flying than to sit at the computer making the
accusations fly, eh, Deke? Too bad I didn't know about your flight to
Midland....I and two other planes flew up to Mt. Pleasant for
lunch....hell, that's only 25 miles apart. Coming back was a bit
bumpy though.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 644.7 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On May 5, 2009, at 4:34 PM, Fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> Bob, thanks for the respectful response. If you go back and read
> both of my emails I think you'll see that we were saying the same
> thing. I was recommending that Jerry go direct to the manufacturer
> for their opinion on the best course of action. I did not
> recommend that he fly the airplane, nor would I ever do that. More
> than likely GSC (if it was a GSC) would ask him to send in his
> blades for inspection and may either recommend a new blade or all
> three. I said this because it is very easy to give personal advice
> to someone over the internet when you don't have to live with the
> result.
> Deke
> (The armchair pilot with 1500+ hours mostly TD)
> Oh, yeah. I flew two hours this morning down to Midland MI and
> back. Had lunch with a cutie and had smooth air both directions.
> Doesn't get much better.
>
>
> matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
>> Sorry to respectfully disagree here Deke but having recently had
>> such issues
>> drilled into me so that I could get my Repairman's ticket I feel I
>> need to.
>>
>> Any grain crack or evidence of delamination in a wooden structure
>> in an
>> aircraft application is reason to ground the aircraft until it is
>> replaced,
>> especially in a prop. Nicks and dings to a certain size, with no
>> evidence of
>> damage to grain or lamination, can be sanded and re-coated. In
>> class we had
>> to evaluate actual rejected wooden parts to try and find the
>> defect, some
>> were really hard to find.
>>
>> Any grain crack or delamination in a prop blade can quickly
>> propagate to the
>> hub with catastrophic results. No inspector would let an airplane
>> fly with
>> that kind of defect, not even to get home.
>>
>> I was the orignal reply to Jerry's question - recommending he send
>> the
>> blades back to the manufacturer for inspection and replacement as
>> necessary
>> and I stick by that, but as an inspector I would stamp that
>> aircraft as
>> non-airworthy. It's not scare tactics, it is an FAA requirement.
>>
>> Bob Brennan - N717GB
>> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
>> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
>> Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
>> Wrightsville Pa
>>
>> --
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242820#242820
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | attaching wing wiring |
hi all,
any recommendations for ways/ materials to attach the wiring in a wing to
the wing structure that will last as long as the covering?wire ties seems
like a natural but will they last 20 yrs?
any comments would be appreciated.
bob noffs
Message 14
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I'll try again.. Seems the last email did not go through.
We can weld them. Give us a call.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
Ph 208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bjones@dmv.com
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 3:23 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Wheels
I HAVE ESTIMATES OF $300 and $500 to weld brake disc attachment lugs on a
new Douglas wheel for my for my Kitox IV Anyone have a less costly shop that
can Get it done B Jones N154K
443 480 1023
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: attaching wing wiring |
The only wire I have in my wings are the shielded and insulated wires
for strobes and position lights. I ran them through the rear spar
tube where they just lay...hopefully content to live out their lives
without chaffing....fingers crossed.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 644.7 hrs
Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On May 5, 2009, at 6:22 PM, bob noffs wrote:
> hi all,
> any recommendations for ways/ materials to attach the wiring in a
> wing to the wing structure that will last as long as the covering?
> wire ties seems like a natural but will they last 20 yrs?
> any comments would be appreciated.
> bob noffs
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
Lynn, my friend. Even if I'd known that your lameness was nearby I probably
wouldn't have met up with you anyway. I had something much better going on!
When I took off from Midland about 1500 it was a little bit choppy, but
after climbing out to 3500 it smoothed right out and stayed that way until I
got home. Even had a small tailwind.
Life is good!
Deke
do not archive
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: prop questions
>
> Better to be out flying than to sit at the computer making the
> accusations fly, eh, Deke? Too bad I didn't know about your flight to
> Midland....I and two other planes flew up to Mt. Pleasant for
> lunch....hell, that's only 25 miles apart. Coming back was a bit bumpy
> though.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 644.7 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46 Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
> do not archive
>
>
> On May 5, 2009, at 4:34 PM, Fox5flyer wrote:
>
>>
>> Bob, thanks for the respectful response. If you go back and read both
>> of my emails I think you'll see that we were saying the same thing. I
>> was recommending that Jerry go direct to the manufacturer for their
>> opinion on the best course of action. I did not recommend that he fly
>> the airplane, nor would I ever do that. More than likely GSC (if it was
>> a GSC) would ask him to send in his blades for inspection and may either
>> recommend a new blade or all three. I said this because it is very easy
>> to give personal advice to someone over the internet when you don't have
>> to live with the result.
>> Deke
>> (The armchair pilot with 1500+ hours mostly TD)
>> Oh, yeah. I flew two hours this morning down to Midland MI and back.
>> Had lunch with a cutie and had smooth air both directions. Doesn't get
>> much better.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
>>> Sorry to respectfully disagree here Deke but having recently had such
>>> issues
>>> drilled into me so that I could get my Repairman's ticket I feel I need
>>> to.
>>>
>>> Any grain crack or evidence of delamination in a wooden structure in an
>>> aircraft application is reason to ground the aircraft until it is
>>> replaced,
>>> especially in a prop. Nicks and dings to a certain size, with no
>>> evidence of
>>> damage to grain or lamination, can be sanded and re-coated. In class we
>>> had
>>> to evaluate actual rejected wooden parts to try and find the defect,
>>> some
>>> were really hard to find.
>>>
>>> Any grain crack or delamination in a prop blade can quickly propagate
>>> to the
>>> hub with catastrophic results. No inspector would let an airplane fly
>>> with
>>> that kind of defect, not even to get home.
>>>
>>> I was the orignal reply to Jerry's question - recommending he send the
>>> blades back to the manufacturer for inspection and replacement as
>>> necessary
>>> and I stick by that, but as an inspector I would stamp that aircraft as
>>> non-airworthy. It's not scare tactics, it is an FAA requirement.
>>>
>>> Bob Brennan - N717GB
>>> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
>>> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
>>> Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
>>> Wrightsville Pa
>>>
>>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242820#242820
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | attaching wing wiring |
I ran mine down the rear spar. If there is any problems I can just tie on a
new piece and pull it through. However I have had no issues in over 200
hours
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob noffs
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 5:23 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: attaching wing wiring
hi all,
any recommendations for ways/ materials to attach the wiring in a wing to
the wing structure that will last as long as the covering?wire ties seems
like a natural but will they last 20 yrs?
any comments would be appreciated.
bob noffs
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
It all depends on the crack... but I second your opinion that the only ones
to consult on it are the manufacturers of the blades.
Cheers
Noel
Getting closer to getting the 912 in the air
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: 05 May 2009 09:37 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: prop questions
I fail to see what a small crack in the tip of a (as yet type unknown) prop
blade has to do with a blade letting go at the hub. Again, my advice is he
should go to the manufacturer where the real experts can advise him and
leave the scare tactics and sales pitch to the politicians.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 406+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
>
> Here is what happens to them when they fail
> http://www.cfisher.com/gsc
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
Perhaps it's the scary tone that Deke doesn't like... but as you say, it is
scary! Like most on the list I would not fly with it until it has been
passed by the manufacturer. Now ask me if I think the manufacturer would
pass it... not a chance.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
Sent: 05 May 2009 11:42 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: prop questions
Deke, Get the chip off your shoulder eh !!
this is a safety issue, A GSC prop from 1987 is 22 years old man. Might work
fine, but it way past TBO .
When you call it scare tactics ? What the heck that mean that you a
moderator and will not let others speak the truth and facts?
I SELL PROPS, I promote safety as well. Prop departure is scary, I have
first hand experience in flight do you ?
When was your last prop failure> ?
Dave < -- Facts from 3 decades of aviation not from the armchair .
Fox5flyer wrote:
> I fail to see what a small crack in the tip of a (as yet type unknown)
prop
> blade has to do with a blade letting go at the hub. Again, my advice is he
> should go to the manufacturer where the real experts can advise him and
> leave the scare tactics and sales pitch to the politicians.
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 406+ TT
> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
> - Joseph Joubert
>
>
>
> >
> > Here is what happens to them when they fail
> > http://www.cfisher.com/gsc
> >
> >
>
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242780#242780
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: prop questions |
Per se??? I don't know about pre-se but I sure know about what is written
on the manufacturers home page. Sure there is no way the manufacturer can
make you take the prop off your plane but how smart would it be to fly it
knowing the guy who designed and built it thinks it has not been safe for
many years and you can see potential catastrophic damage to it.
I'm not trying to scare the heebie geebies out of any one just to say it as
it is. If you think the blades can be restored send them back to GSC for
evaluation and rebuilding. If not enjoy a nice fire.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul A. Franz,
P.E.
Sent: 05 May 2009 04:17 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: prop questions
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Tue, May 5, 2009 5:06 am, fox5flyer wrote:
>
> I fail to see what a small crack in the tip of a (as yet type unknown)
prop
> blade has to do with a blade letting go at the hub. Again, my advice is he
> should go to the manufacturer where the real experts can advise him and
> leave the scare tactics and sales pitch to the politicians.
Whoa! You sure got a couple violent responses to this posting! Who'd have
known? I
agree with your assessment for the most part though.
Comments were made suggesting this prop was beyond TBO. Hmmm, I'm not
convinced there
is a TBO per se, for wood props and hubs. TBO on props usually applies to
ones with a
pitch control mechanism. Maybe that "5 years, 5 hundred hours" condition
that's stated
for GSC is applicable.
Unless there is something you'd judge would cause that prop to have its tip
crack
grow, I agree that it's probably OK to fly on. But if the crack is due to a
tip
strike, that might mean the base has been weakened. If the crack is due to
picking up
gravel and damaging the finish, it is likely repairable. Several techniques
can be
used to force epoxy into the crack. Just like you can seal cracks in a
windshield, you
can force epoxy into a crack. My guess is that there has to be a pretty
tight finish
intact all around the injection point for it to work though.
If you were the factory and your advice could subject you to liability, how
would that
temper your response? I might be inclined to utter in a knee jerk reaction
- 'we
better get out of this business before the lawyers bankrupt us'. Some one
else might
react with a less fearful approach. Maybe, lets have a look before we tell
them we
can't stand behind any repairs made to this old propeller. Yet another might
be, let's
carefully inspect the bases and evaluate whether or not we can repair the
cracks at a
lesser cost than replacing one or all of the blades.
If the subject prop is a GSC, getting them in the loop seems to me will get
you on the
right track and you'll be relieved at knowing just what you're supposed to
do.
--
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
PAF Consulting Engineers
Office 425.440.9505
Cell 425.241.1618
"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its
victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those who blissfully
and unawaredly enslave themselves. A truth's initial commotion is
directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn't the
world being round that agitated people, but that the world wasn't flat.
When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses
over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its
speaker a raving lunatic."
-- author Dresden James
Message 21
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| Subject: | attaching wing wiring |
Coraseal won't cut your hands if you have to reach inside the wing through
an inspection port. There are also padded Adel clamps. But for small planes
that overkill and heavy.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob noffs
Sent: 05 May 2009 07:53 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: attaching wing wiring
hi all,
any recommendations for ways/ materials to attach the wiring in a wing to
the wing structure that will last as long as the covering?wire ties seems
like a natural but will they last 20 yrs?
any comments would be appreciated.
bob noffs
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: attaching wing wiring |
I did the same thing with a length of heat shirnk where it enters and exits
the spars. 900 hours in nine years.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "kirk hull" <kirkhull@kc.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 5:24 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: attaching wing wiring
>I ran mine down the rear spar. If there is any problems I can just tie on
>a
> new piece and pull it through. However I have had no issues in over 200
> hours
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob noffs
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 5:23 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: attaching wing wiring
>
>
> hi all,
>
> any recommendations for ways/ materials to attach the wiring in a wing to
> the wing structure that will last as long as the covering?wire ties seems
> like a natural but will they last 20 yrs?
>
> any comments would be appreciated.
>
> bob noffs
>
>
>
Message 23
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I'm the buddy Leni is talking about.
I made the weld lugs,drilled and tapped and bolted to the disks.
Used a 3/4 bolt as an axel installed in the hub, hub bolted in the
wheel ( now the other three holes can be drilled in the wheel)
The head of the bolt clamped in a vice so the wheel can be rotated
to align the brake disk. A little filing for alignment and welded.
Their straight and work fine.
It was simple but if I could buy them I wouldn't do it again. My wheels
won't fit another fox with out wheel spacers aligning rotor to caliper.
Cost me $130 for 1 1/2 hr of welder/shop time
Bob
--------
Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
KF Mod I and III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242873#242873
Message 24
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roger that. I can see what made it tough for you.
I just bought a new douglas wheel like my old one and proceeded like I had
mentioned before. The rotor , bolts and old lugs where the template, it was
a matter of cutting off the old lugs and rewelding making sure the inset
diminsion was accurate. I had no runout at all so mine was successful. You
want to avoid the redneck welders though.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "AKFLYERBOB" <r.wolfejr@worldnet.att.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 10:03 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Wheels
> <r.wolfejr@worldnet.att.net>
>
> I'm the buddy Leni is talking about.
> I made the weld lugs,drilled and tapped and bolted to the disks.
> Used a 3/4 bolt as an axel installed in the hub, hub bolted in the
> wheel ( now the other three holes can be drilled in the wheel)
> The head of the bolt clamped in a vice so the wheel can be rotated
> to align the brake disk. A little filing for alignment and welded.
> Their straight and work fine.
> It was simple but if I could buy them I wouldn't do it again. My wheels
> won't fit another fox with out wheel spacers aligning rotor to caliper.
> Cost me $130 for 1 1/2 hr of welder/shop time
> Bob
>
> --------
> Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
> KF Mod I and III
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242873#242873
>
>
>
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