Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:04 AM - Re: 582 stuck - update (Lynn Matteson)
2. 04:07 AM - Re: 582 stuck - update (Ken Potter)
3. 06:52 AM - Re: 582 stuck - update (ronlee)
4. 09:40 AM - Re: 582 stuck - update (Shane Sather)
5. 12:20 PM - Re: 582 stuck - update (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
6. 01:02 PM - Twin lead throttle cable (wingnut)
7. 01:40 PM - Re: Twin lead throttle cable (jdmcbean)
8. 03:44 PM - Re: Twin lead throttle cable (Tom Jones)
9. 04:46 PM - Re: 582 stuck - update (Randy Daughenbaugh)
10. 06:34 PM - Kreem Problem Follow Up (pperrynas)
11. 06:34 PM - Re: 582 stuck - update (Dave G)
12. 06:51 PM - Grey heads RV seal update (Pat Reilly)
13. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: 582 stuck - update (Noel)
14. 07:14 PM - Re: 582 stuck - update (Noel)
15. 10:46 PM - 582 stuck - update (Cecil Stokesberry)
16. 10:49 PM - Re: 582 stuck - update (Guy Buchanan)
17. 11:27 PM - Re: Grey heads RV seal update (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 582 stuck - update |
I had a similar experience just recently with a single-cylinder
Briggs and Stratton engine that was out of a cultivator. The piston
was so stuck in the bore that it needed to be pried out. I found a
sticky substance in the pan that was grey-looking and very sticky.
They grey color was probably from the aluminum cylinder walls, but
the stickiness I just can't explain. I used alcohol, MEK, mineral
spirits, water, lacquer thinner, and finally carburetor cleaner to
try to dissolve the stuff. None of these products seemed to cut the
stuff, but with some soaking, the carb cleaner finally got rid of
it....not like it should have, though. Of course, the EPA has
weakened the carb cleaner to the point that you could damn near drink
it...it sure isn't as potent as it used to be. I hope you find the
answer.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 707.7 hrs
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On Jul 19, 2009, at 12:47 AM, Cecil Stokesberry wrote:
> Stuck seems to be the right word for this situation.
> I removed the head - still stuck.
> I removed the gear box - still stuck.
> I then took off the cylinders - still stuck but not as much.
> Took the engine out of the plane and took the ign and oil
> pump off. Had a good look inside the crankcase and elsewhere.
> And..............found a layer of what looks and feels like tar.
> Everything is covered with this and is very sticky.
> Even the rings are stuck with the stuff.
> It seems to clean up with carb cleaner.
> I think this is the "stuck" culprit.
> So, where did this stuff come from?
> I think maybe the engine was stored with some kind of preservatives
> when shipped here.
> Then during many storage years it turned into this stuff.
> The engine is dated Jan 1991.
> I finally hung it on the airplane in 2006 and first run-up for
> break-in in 2008. Every thing seemed normal for the hour
> break-in procedure. Then during taxi test in 2009 the stuck
> problem developed.
>
> Any ideas how this stuff might have developed ?
> There is no evidence of any metal to metal dings.
> Fuel used was Conoco prem with no evidence of ethanol.
> The oil tank shows oil being consumed normally.
>
> Is there any way to clean up this stuff without splitting the case?
>
> I don't have the special tools to disassemble and assemble the engine.
> And they are pricey.
> Anyone have these tools that would be willing to rent them to me.
>
> Cecil in N. Idaho
> N161CP Kitfox IV - 582 C 1050
>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
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| Subject: | Re: 582 stuck - update |
I would be interested in any other's experience of Cecil's problem. My 582 was
delivered to the previous owner in 1991. In 2003, not even having run it yet
he had it "updated" by a rotax dealer. When I purchased the project from him
in 2007 I remember him saying that after the update it had been "preserved" by
the dealer. Now, my experience as a mechanical engineer tells me that this
is normally done just using a preservative oil which is compatible with other
oils. But as I'll be ready to start and break mine in within the next couple
of months, Cecil's observations have me wondering.....
--------
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
98% Complete
C-FJKP (marks reserved)
Lanark, Ontario
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253696#253696
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| Subject: | Re: 582 stuck - update |
Transmission shops use carburetor cleaner to clean the burnt on varnish off parts
all the time.
They have it in five gallon containers. maybe you could find some shop with a container
large enough to soak the whole crank case. I do not know what it would
do to the seals though.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253706#253706
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| Subject: | Re: 582 stuck - update |
This seems almost like mine was when I first kit my fox. The first few
hours on the engine all was good. Then all hell poured loose and the
inside of the engine got coated with a tar like stuff and had to be
cleaned all out. We believe it came from the fuel tanks.
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: Cecil Stokesberry
To: Kitfox
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:47 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 stuck - update
Stuck seems to be the right word for this situation.
I removed the head - still stuck.
I removed the gear box - still stuck.
I then took off the cylinders - still stuck but not as much.
Took the engine out of the plane and took the ign and oil
pump off. Had a good look inside the crankcase and elsewhere.
And..............found a layer of what looks and feels like tar.
Everything is covered with this and is very sticky.
Even the rings are stuck with the stuff.
It seems to clean up with carb cleaner.
I think this is the "stuck" culprit.
So, where did this stuff come from?
I think maybe the engine was stored with some kind of preservatives
when shipped here.
Then during many storage years it turned into this stuff.
The engine is dated Jan 1991.
I finally hung it on the airplane in 2006 and first run-up for
break-in in 2008. Every thing seemed normal for the hour
break-in procedure. Then during taxi test in 2009 the stuck
problem developed.
Any ideas how this stuff might have developed ?
There is no evidence of any metal to metal dings.
Fuel used was Conoco prem with no evidence of ethanol.
The oil tank shows oil being consumed normally.
Is there any way to clean up this stuff without splitting the case?
I don't have the special tools to disassemble and assemble the engine.
And they are pricey.
Anyone have these tools that would be willing to rent them to me.
Cecil in N. Idaho
N161CP Kitfox IV - 582 C 1050
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| Subject: | Re: 582 stuck - update |
On Sun, July 19, 2009 9:34 am, Shane Sather wrote:
> ...... The first few hours on the
> engine all was good. Then all hell poured loose and the inside of the engine
got
> coated with a tar like stuff and had to be cleaned all out. We believe it came
from
> the fuel tanks.
I've been following this thread and I too suspect the fouling wasn't present when
the
engine was first run. Something in contact with the fuel is the cause rather than
the
pickling process on the engine done for long term storage.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
CULTURE
"A civilized society's first line of defense is not the law, police and
courts but customs, traditions and moral values. Behavioral norms, mostly
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error. They include important thou-shalt-nots such as shalt not murder,
shalt not steal, shalt not lie and cheat, but they also include all those
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fully transmit values and traditions to subsequent generations represents
one of the failings of the so-called greatest generation. ... Policemen and
laws can never replace customs, traditions and moral values as a means for
regulating human behavior. At best, the police and criminal justice system
are the last desperate line of defense for a civilized society. Our
increased reliance on laws to regulate behavior is a measure of how
uncivilized we've become."
-- Walter E. Williams, George Mason University economics professor
"The Founding Fathers established a system which meant a radical
break from that which preceded it. A written constitution would
provide a permanent form of government, limited in scope, but
effective in providing both liberty and order. Government was not
to be a matter of self-appointed rulers, governing by whim or harsh
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that all men are created equal, prospered and grew strong. To this
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an habitual fondness, is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to
its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to
lead it astray from its duty and its interest."
-- George Washington
About the Federalist Papers - wiki
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers>
All of them presented in the Library of Congress
<http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fedpapers.html>
Searchable e-text of the Federalist and other documents too.
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Twin lead throttle cable |
I'm installing the twin lead throttle cable from Aircraft Spruce:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/rotaxdualthrottle.php
It works ok but it lacks the ratcheting lock that my old throttle had. In order
to hold idle, I have to keep the adjustable resistance set fairly high to counteract
the throttle springs. I find it cumbersome. Anyone have a better solution?
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253762#253762
Message 7
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| Subject: | Twin lead throttle cable |
Luis,
We have offered this type of cable for some time with the fittings
for the carbs. We can also offer them with as a vernier type throttle.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
Ph 208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 2:00 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Twin lead throttle cable
I'm installing the twin lead throttle cable from Aircraft Spruce:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/rotaxdualthrottle.php
It works ok but it lacks the ratcheting lock that my old throttle had. In
order to hold idle, I have to keep the adjustable resistance set fairly high
to counteract the throttle springs. I find it cumbersome. Anyone have a
better solution?
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253762#253762
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Twin lead throttle cable |
Luis, the throttle that came with my kit has just the adjustable friction lock.
It took me only a short while to get used to operating it with one hand. I
turn all the friction off for taxi, takeoff and climb out because my hand will
be on the throttle all that time anyhow. When I reduce throttle and level off
I can set the throttle for the desired RPM and turn the friction knob with two
fingers and thumb to hold it there, then take my hand off the throttle.
When I descend, enter the pattern and land I take the friction off and keep my
hand on the throttle again.
I started out flying my kitfox by setting the friction enough to hold the RPM but
still be able to push the throttle in...I thought. On my second or third takeoff
I took my had off to scratch my nose and it slipped back to idle at about
100 feet off the ground and scared the crap out of me. I thought the engine
had done did the dreaded two stroke seizure.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253781#253781
Message 9
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| Subject: | 582 stuck - update |
I would like to second Shane's suggestion. I had a similar problem with my
912S. It ran great for several flights then the starter carbs (choke is a
misnomer for this engine) stuck. I took them apart, cleaned them up, and
then flew a couple of flights and they gummed up again. I got smart this
time and drained all the gas from the tanks, cleaned the starter carbs
again, and then with new gas, had no more problems.
I hate to admit that I have further confirmation that the problem was with
the gas (or more correctly, with the gas tanks!). I took the bad gas home
intending to use it to burn slash piles and lost track of it. I put it in
my lawn mower and ended up pulling the carb and cleaning it! (*&%#$*(&
This sounds different in scale, but ,,,,
Randy
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shane Sather
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 stuck - update
This seems almost like mine was when I first kit my fox. The first few hours
on the engine all was good. Then all hell poured loose and the inside of the
engine got coated with a tar like stuff and had to be cleaned all out. We
believe it came from the fuel tanks.
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: Cecil <mailto:stokesc@wildblue.net> Stokesberry
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:47 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 stuck - update
Stuck seems to be the right word for this situation.
I removed the head - still stuck.
I removed the gear box - still stuck.
I then took off the cylinders - still stuck but not as much.
Took the engine out of the plane and took the ign and oil
pump off. Had a good look inside the crankcase and elsewhere.
And..............found a layer of what looks and feels like tar.
Everything is covered with this and is very sticky.
Even the rings are stuck with the stuff.
It seems to clean up with carb cleaner.
I think this is the "stuck" culprit.
So, where did this stuff come from?
I think maybe the engine was stored with some kind of preservatives
when shipped here.
Then during many storage years it turned into this stuff.
The engine is dated Jan 1991.
I finally hung it on the airplane in 2006 and first run-up for
break-in in 2008. Every thing seemed normal for the hour
break-in procedure. Then during taxi test in 2009 the stuck
problem developed.
Any ideas how this stuff might have developed ?
There is no evidence of any metal to metal dings.
Fuel used was Conoco prem with no evidence of ethanol.
The oil tank shows oil being consumed normally.
Is there any way to clean up this stuff without splitting the case?
I don't have the special tools to disassemble and assemble the engine.
And they are pricey.
Anyone have these tools that would be willing to rent them to me.
Cecil in N. Idaho
N161CP Kitfox IV - 582 C 1050
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 10
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| Subject: | Kreem Problem Follow Up |
Again, thanks to everyone who responded to my orig post about the Kreem Prob, and
I thought I would add some more info on what prompted me to look into the fuel
tanks for a problem as well as post pics I took of the inside of the tanks
with a mini webcam. I purchased the plane from the orig builder about a year
ago, and started using unleaded gas either 89 or 93 oct (912ul 80hp) around Sept.(engine
time around 100hrs). Within a couple of months I started having problems
every once in a while when starting the engine it would run extremely rough
initially, but after shutting down, turning prop by hand, it would start and
run fine. I could note when it started but running rough, that I would have
a cold cylinder (usually #1 or #2) . These symptoms gradually got worse until
recently, after engine was shut down and cooled off (a few hours), I would have
no compression at all and have to turn prop over by hand or crank with starter,
then wait, then do it some more to finally start getting compression..i.e.
sticking valves. Time on engine is now about 130hrs. I talked to a rotax repairman
in Arlington,TN (Rodney Hardin) and he told me he had seen this happen
on 912's and had found fiberglass fuel tanks being "dissolved" by the ethanol
in the auto gas and the resulting contamination was causing the stuck valve problem.
When inspecting by tanks thru the fuel opening I could see significant
areas of exposed fiberglass so following his suggestion I removed the valve covers
one at a time and sprayed a small amount of carb cleaner on valve stems
and turned prop by hand until I got enough compression to start the engine, drained
the fuel system and disconnected fuel lines, and then hooked up a temp fuel
tank, and added a fuel system/valve cleaner additive and ground ran for about
45 minutes on Friday. On Saturday when I first turned the prop by hand I
did not have the normal full compression(like I feel when shutting down engine)
, but enough to start engine and it ran normally (no roughness) and so I ground
ran fo!
r anothe
r 20 minutes. On Sunday I turned prop over by hand and it had what I believe to
be "full compression" on all cylinders like it used to before this scenario started.
Mr Hardin said he had seen fiberglass tanks (not kitfox ones) that were
deteriorated so bad they were not structurally sound and attributed this to
the ethanol in the gas. At this point I can only say that I believe something
in the unleaded gas reacted with either the fiberglass resin, or the Kreem, or
the mil-h-6000 fuel hose and caused the sticking valve problem. My plan now is
to remove wings and use MEK to remove the Kreem and then re-slosh with Kreem
per several replies to my original post. I am also going to change the fuel lines
to one of the types recommended on this or the rotax forum. Sorry for the
length of this post, but maybe someone else may benefit from my experience.
Thanks again, Paul Perry KFIV 912ul
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253805#253805
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rt_tank_003_746.jpg
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 582 stuck - update |
The deposits appear in different places and seem related to fiberglass
tanks. References to black deposits in engines is more common in marine
applications. Here is a link to one.
http://www.ardujenski.com/files/documents/fueltest.pdf
It relates to alchohol but perhaps these deposits show up in new tanks
moreso than older ones. In any case it looks like this material is
soming into the engine from the tanks.
Maybe a good waashout or seasoning with fuel which must then be disposed
is an answer. Anybody starting up a new "fox from early nineties?
Message 12
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| Subject: | Grey heads RV seal update |
Kitfoxers, Started and ran my 582 grey head engine. It ran fine. A Trike
pilot who considers himself an expert on 582's tells me to pull the
rotary valve and install newer type seals or it will difinetly fail.
What's the general consenses on this topic? The engine has 100 hours and
was stored about 2 years before I cranked it up.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 582 stuck - update |
Have you tried brake cleaner. It is usually rubber safe and will dissolve
most tars.
I'd like to see an analysis done on the gunk... My bet is it will be epoxy
resin. Check to see if any of this goo is in the float bowls... I have the
funny feeling you may find your tanks dissolving too! Goo in the base can
only get there through the carb... in the fuel. Mineral oils are used to
mothball engines and I find it hard to see that stuff turning to goo while
the engine is operating.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ronlee
Sent: 19 July 2009 11:20
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 stuck - update
Transmission shops use carburetor cleaner to clean the burnt on varnish off
parts all the time.
They have it in five gallon containers. maybe you could find some shop with
a container large enough to soak the whole crank case. I do not know what it
would do to the seals though.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253706#253706
Message 14
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| Subject: | 582 stuck - update |
I suggest you guys start testing your fuel for ethanol concentration.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shane Sather
Sent: 19 July 2009 14:04
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 stuck - update
This seems almost like mine was when I first kit my fox. The first few hours
on the engine all was good. Then all hell poured loose and the inside of the
engine got coated with a tar like stuff and had to be cleaned all out. We
believe it came from the fuel tanks.
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: Cecil Stokesberry <mailto:stokesc@wildblue.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:47 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 stuck - update
Stuck seems to be the right word for this situation.
I removed the head - still stuck.
I removed the gear box - still stuck.
I then took off the cylinders - still stuck but not as much.
Took the engine out of the plane and took the ign and oil
pump off. Had a good look inside the crankcase and elsewhere.
And..............found a layer of what looks and feels like tar.
Everything is covered with this and is very sticky.
Even the rings are stuck with the stuff.
It seems to clean up with carb cleaner.
I think this is the "stuck" culprit.
So, where did this stuff come from?
I think maybe the engine was stored with some kind of preservatives
when shipped here.
Then during many storage years it turned into this stuff.
The engine is dated Jan 1991.
I finally hung it on the airplane in 2006 and first run-up for
break-in in 2008. Every thing seemed normal for the hour
break-in procedure. Then during taxi test in 2009 the stuck
problem developed.
Any ideas how this stuff might have developed ?
There is no evidence of any metal to metal dings.
Fuel used was Conoco prem with no evidence of ethanol.
The oil tank shows oil being consumed normally.
Is there any way to clean up this stuff without splitting the case?
I don't have the special tools to disassemble and assemble the engine.
And they are pricey.
Anyone have these tools that would be willing to rent them to me.
Cecil in N. Idaho
N161CP Kitfox IV - 582 C 1050
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 15
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| Subject: | 582 stuck - update |
The instructions I used for first start of engine was to
add some oil to the fuel just in case the oil injector
did not work. This I did and maybe I put too much oil
in the fuel and the oil injector did work as it should.
Maybe this was the start of it all.
I will look in the flood bowl to see if there is any gunk.
Carb clearer works very well in dissolving this black gunk.
I will also try brake cleaner to see how it works.
I doubt if either will harm the crank bearings, but I am
concerned what damage the cleaner might do to the
oil seals or o-rings.
Cecil
Kitfox IV 1050 582 C
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 582 stuck - update |
At 06:28 PM 7/19/2009, you wrote:
>The deposits appear in different places and seem related to
>fiberglass tanks. References to black deposits in engines is more
>common in marine applications. Here is a link to one.
Here in Ramona we had the dreaded sludge in a Kitfox III with a 912.
It was attributed to bad gas, and the tanks were unequivocally exonerated.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Grey heads RV seal update |
At 06:47 PM 7/19/2009, you wrote:
>A Trike pilot who considers himself an expert on 582's tells me to
>pull the rotary valve and install newer type seals or it will difinetly fail.
If he means the new rotary valve seal that's a big negative. The
problem got solved when everyone switched to the "silicate free"
coolant. I've got 400 hours on original rotary seals with no problem.
(Knock on woodie.)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
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