---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/06/09: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:19 AM - Re: Tool for positioning a bolt or washer plus nut (John Ciolino) 2. 03:04 AM - Re: Rotec TBI success story (Boilermaker2000) 3. 03:44 AM - Re: Re: Rotec TBI success story (lst) 4. 03:44 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox (lst) 5. 04:00 AM - WING BUILD START (lst) 6. 04:03 AM - Re: Rotec TBI success story (Av8r3400) 7. 04:37 AM - Re: Re: Rotec TBI success story (Larry Huntley) 8. 05:54 AM - Re: Rotec TBI success story (Boilermaker2000) 9. 06:00 AM - Re: WING BUILD START (Tom Jones) 10. 06:32 AM - Re: Brake lines filling (Roger Lee) 11. 06:41 AM - Re: Re: Rotec TBI success story (Marco Menezes) 12. 06:59 AM - Re: Re: WING BUILD START (Lowell Fitt) 13. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: Rotec TBI success story (Marco Menezes) 14. 07:55 AM - Re: Tool for positioning a bolt or washer plus nut (Scott DeMeyer) 15. 08:47 AM - Re: WING BUILD START (jdmcbean) 16. 09:26 AM - Re: IFR KItfox (JetPilot) 17. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: Rotec TBI success story (Lynn Matteson) 18. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: WING BUILD START (lst) 19. 01:41 PM - Re: WING BUILD START (lst) 20. 03:14 PM - Re: Seat pan (Patrick Reilly) 21. 03:34 PM - Re: Re: IFR KItfox (Patrick Reilly) 22. 04:01 PM - Pancakes - was Rotec TBI success story (Marco Menezes) 23. 04:03 PM - Re: IFR KItfox (n85ae) 24. 05:57 PM - Re: Re: WING BUILD START (bob noffs) 25. 05:58 PM - Re: Re: IFR KItfox (bob noffs) 26. 06:20 PM - Flyin U12 (Dee Young) 27. 08:43 PM - Re: Re: IFR KItfox (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:07 AM PST US From: "John Ciolino" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tool for positioning a bolt or washer plus nut Maurice, Look at www.averytools.com, p/n 5866 for a bolt insertion tool. You could make one of these pretty easily. Also see p/n 41011TP if you have finger room. And p/n 23800 for washers. These will hold nuts also. As Lowell suggested glue the washer and nut together and use this tool to place on bolt. John Ciolino Model IV-1200 N9294Y From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Maurice Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 12:00 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Tool for positioning a bolt or washer plus nut I have not been able to successfully google where I can obtain a tool for positioning a bolt, or washer plus nut, in a difficult to reach place. I presently need it to mount my rudder. One of our brethren has an Esco Hingemate Australia AN3 + AN4. I have been unable to locate it or anything similar. Any advice or help would be deeply appreciated. Maurice 7A 912S 72" IVO GA ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:04:45 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story From: "Boilermaker2000" What is the big obstacle in getting fuel injection for the Rotax two strokes? Seems like this would have been figured out by now, but the only thing that comes up in a google search is a really expensive one that was shown at AirVenture 1998. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256304#256304 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:54 AM PST US From: "lst" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story Hirth has FI on their two strokes and as someone mentioned earlier, snowmobiles have used FI on their Rotax powered two strokes for many years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Boilermaker2000" Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 6:02 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story > > > What is the big obstacle in getting fuel injection for the Rotax two > strokes? Seems like this would have been figured out by now, but the only > thing that comes up in a google search is a really expensive one that was > shown at AirVenture 1998. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256304#256304 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:54 AM PST US From: "lst" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox I've had the privilege of being the second owner on two experimentals, Pulsar XP and presently Long EZ. I perform all the maintenance during the course of the year and pay an A&P to perform the annual conditional inspections per the regs. I've had the benefit of a five time experimental builder, 747 driver, A&P/IA perform several, which provides a great set of expert highly experienced eyes. As I understand the regs the bottom line is that the owner non-builder can perform any and all maintenance, but a licensed A&P must perform (signoff), the conditional inspection. The EAA site provides the regs and guidance to this effect. Lane Taylor New Kitfox IV owner/builder and someday (soon) flyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Brennan" Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 12:44 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox > > > Note the word "supervised" is never used with regards to the annual or > 100-hour inspections in either section, only the words "performed and > inspected". A "friend" who signs off an inspection he did not perform > could > be liable for any accidents due to anything that should have been caught > during a legal inspection and could/should(my opinion) lose his license. > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger > Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Hart > Sent: 05 August 2009 11:39 am > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox > > > > 65.85 Airframe rating; additional privileges. > top > > (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a certificated > mechanic with an airframe rating may approve and return to service an > airframe, or any related part or appliance, after he has performed, > supervised, or inspected its maintenance or alteration (excluding major > repairs and major alterations). In addition, he may perform the 100-hour > inspection required by part 91 of this chapter on an airframe, or any > related part or appliance, and approve and return it to service. > > (b) A certificated mechanic with an airframe rating can approve and return > to service an airframe, or any related part or appliance, of an aircraft > with a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category after > performing and inspecting a major repair or major alteration for products > that are not produced under an FAA approval provided the work was > performed > in accordance with instructions developed by the manufacturer or a person > acceptable to the FAA. > > [Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7973, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 65-10, 32 > FR > 5770, Apr. 11, 1967; Amdt. 65-45, 69 FR 44879, July 27, 2004] > > 65.87 Powerplant rating; additional privileges. > top > > (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a certificated > mechanic with a powerplant rating may approve and return to service a > powerplant or propeller or any related part or appliance, after he has > performed, supervised, or inspected its maintenance or alteration > (excluding > major repairs and major alterations). In addition, he may perform the > 100-hour inspection required by part 91 of this chapter on a powerplant or > propeller, or any part thereof, and approve and return it to service. > > (b) A certificated mechanic with a powerplant rating can approve and > return > to service a powerplant or propeller, or any related part or appliance, of > an aircraft with a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport > category after performing and inspecting a major repair or major > alteration > for products that are not produced under an FAA approval, provided the > work > was performed in accordance with instructions developed by the > manufacturer > or a person acceptable to the FAA. > > [Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7973, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 65-10, 32 > FR > 5770, Apr. 11, 1967; Amdt. 65-45, 69 FR 44879, July 27, 2004] > > > John Hart > KFIV, NSI Subaru > Wilburton, OK > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:03 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox > > > Bob, > > In the interest of keeping the facts straight, Anyone can do the > maintenance > > on an amateur built experimantal aircraft and can do the annual condition > inspection as well --if he can find an A&P who will sign certifying that > "this aircraft has been inspected on [date] according to....". You and I > are entitled to sign and affix our certificate numbers as the responsible > party after an inspection. In the approved wording, it doesn't specify > who > did the inspection. > > All that is required is that an owner find an A&P that is wiling to > endorse > the log book. This procedure is done all the time and I expect by most > list > > non builder owners. > > Regarding the Rogue comment. I think it is a fair assessment of the FAAs > incentive in beginning the ELSA program. There were numerous two place > non > conforming "Ultralight trainers" that were being flown without any > licensing > > whatsoever. Many heavy non regulation conforming "ultralights" as well. > Enough in fact that the FAA considered it a major issue. These were the > rogue aircraft referred to in the original post. Your particular > situation > is piggy backed onto the original intent of the ELSA program and correct > me > if I am wrong, but your airplane was certified in another country and was > kindly treated by the FAA as a previously uncertified aircraft. > > If the FAA had just decided to look the other way regarding the "rogue" > aircraft, your licensing of your imported aircraft would have to have > taken > another route. > > Lowell Fitt > Cameron Park, CA > Model IV-1200 R-912 UL > Covering Fuselage > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Brennan" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 4:58 AM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox > > >> >> >> >> The FAA created the Light Sport category of the Experimental type for >> Airworthiness Certification in 2005 and set an end date of January 31st >> 2008 >> for the conversion of non-registered aircraft to the new type. This >> "amnesty" period applied to registration for an "N" number only, I >> registered my Kitfox II in late 2007 and applied for and was granted and >> ELSA Airworthiness Certificate in late 2008, after the closure of the >> amnesty period, with no problems. Any aircraft previously issued any >> Airworthiness type certificate was not eligible to convert to ELSA, only >> unregistered uncertificated aircraft but I certainly wouldn't call my or >> anyone else's aircraft that took advantage of this program "rogue". >> >> An ELSA aircraft is type certificated as "Experimental" with the same >> restrictions and privileges as EAB aircraft (Experimental - Amateur >> Built). >> True there are additional restrictions on weight, adjustable props, >> landing >> gear, and a few other things (see >> http://www.pilotfriend.com/experimental/spt_cat.htm for a complete list) >> but >> there is the added plus of being able to be the maintainer and inspector >> of >> your own aircraft even if you are not the builder, which for me was a >> major >> factor, and has absolutely nothing to do with the amnesty conversion >> period >> at the beginning of the category creation. >> >> No offense intended in correcting the statements in your post Jack, just >> trying to keep the facts straight here to avoid further confusion. >> >> Bob Brennan - N717GB >> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated >> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger >> Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop >> Wrightsville Pa >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jridgway >> Sent: 05 August 2009 12:01 am >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox >> >> >> >> I just chatted with the A/P who does a lot of work with our EAA chapter. >> He >> told me we have about half a dozen fixed wing aircraft in the local area >> that are ELSA. These aircraft are home built but for numerous reasons >> were >> never were licensed EXPERIMENTAL and were just being flown as VERY HEAVY >> ULTRALIGHTS....lol..The FAA gave a chance for all these ROGUE aircraft to >> get legal by licensing them under the ELSA. This was about 2 years ago >> and >> terminated Dec 2008. If you did not take advantage of this AMNESTY you >> are >> really *^^)(& if you ever need to get legal now on a plane that was not >> registered by the original builder. >> Jack >> PS..Kind of interesting..If you purchased a EXPERIMENTAL aircraft (and >> were >> not the builder) you need a A/P to do the annual. If you purchased the >> same >> plane (and was unlicensed) under the ELSA amnesty anybody can go to a 2 >> day >> course and get a REPAIRMANS CERTIFICATE and do the annuals and the same >> aircraft.. >> PS..To be honest...the ELSA does have some restrictions that a fully >> registered EXPERIMENTAL does not have. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256105#256105 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:00:37 AM PST US From: "lst" Subject: Kitfox-List: WING BUILD START I'm just beginning my Model IV wing layout. I have the original 1993 manual and the newest build manual from Kitfox for the IV. Both manuals have language that infers that the wing is constructed in the jig with the wing upright, "..place the spars with the strut brace outlines facing down." One manual indicates placing the washout block under the rear spar while the other indicates placing under the front spar. Both have many pictures showing the wing being constructed in its inverted position. Two manuals--perhaps too much information. I'd appreciate any guidance as to what the wing build orientation is (if it matters), and under which spar is the 1/2" washout block, which does matter. I also realize that the washout block's position if relative to the wing being constructed upright or inverted. Thanks in advance, Lane ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:13 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story From: "Av8r3400" Boilermaker2000 wrote: > What is the big obstacle in getting fuel injection for the Rotax two strokes? Lawyers. As soon as any of the component manufacturers hear aircraft they either run for cover or increase pricing by a factor of 10 (or more). This is the same reason for the lack of fuel injection on the 900 series motors. This is not me pontificating, this came from Brian from LEAF and Phil Lockwood during their seminars at Airventure.[/i] -------- Thanks, Av8r3400 Kitfox Model IV-1200 912UL IVO-IFA Grove Gear Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256308#256308 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:57 AM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story Hmmmm, can we possibly get lawyers barred from the field of aviation because of the hazards they provide by indirectly stopping inovation that could make our machines safer. It is simple logic to me,but who am I? ;o) Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Av8r3400" Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 7:01 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story Lawyers. As soon as any of the component manufacturers hear aircraft they either run for cover or increase pricing by a factor of 10 (or more). This is the same reason for the lack of fuel injection on the 900 series motors. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:19 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story From: "Boilermaker2000" Av8r3400 wrote: > As soon as any of the component manufacturers hear aircraft they either run for cover or increase pricing by a factor of 10 (or more). It seems like there should be an aftermarket atv/pwc set-up that is available. I'm not aware of a two-stroker used on a certified/production aircraft, so it doesn't seem much different than all of the other non-aviation parts we use. Except that we would want it to be pretty reliable and keep the engine making noise. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256317#256317 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:52 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: WING BUILD START From: "Tom Jones" Lane, you will end up turning that wing over about 500 times before you finish it. It is very important to have the washout block under the correct end of the correct spar when you start. I'll go get my builders log and look at the pictures so I can remember how I did it. Okay I am looking at a picture. I started with the wing upside down. The washout block is under the Front spar tip.[u] Now before you go beyond the point of no return wait for someone else on the list to verify this. Just for a double check. Be sure to build one left wing and one right wing. If you use the same jig you will need to move the washout block so it is under the [u]front spar tip when the wing is upside down. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256319#256319 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:41 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Brake lines filling From: "Roger Lee" Here is what I use. From Ace Hardware for about $10. I used to use an oil can, but this is so much faster and easier. You slip the plastic tube over the nipple, loosen the nipple and pressure the lever. Air pressure forces it at a fast rate through the system for filling and takes all bubbles with it. I put a plastic water bottle on the other end with another tube at the reservoir to catch the over flow from the flush. Piece of cake. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256326#256326 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/brake_flush_002_161.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/brake_flush_001_751.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:58 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story Like I said Lynn, pancakes in Cadillac Saturday and/or at Sugar Springs Sun day. Be there or be square. - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch - do not archive - --- On Wed, 8/5/09, Lynn Matteson wrote: From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story It seems low, Leonard, but today I was climbing at 800 fpm at 8200' altitud e, and it kept right on climbing, for as long as I held the stick back, so it must be ok. It just doesn't seem right.... I can't wait to make a trip with it and see how much fuel I burn in a pract ical test. I'm getting bored "runnin' up and down the same ol' strip, gotta find a new place where the kids are hip" ....geez, did I REALLY say that? Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 723.8 hrs Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection Status: TBI installation done...tests flights underway On Aug 5, 2009, at 6:54 PM, akflyer wrote: > > Lyn, I would not think the fuel flow is that out of line.- When I went from carbed to FI on my boat, I went from 23 GPH WOT to 13 GPH WOT.- Crui se went from 18 GPH to just under 7 GPH. > > I know that when running the snowmachines, the EFI 800 burns WAY less fue l than my carbed 600 and WAY WAY less fuel than my carbed 800.- Hence my wanting to put the AC 800 EFI in my Avid.- 120 HP and 100# Tq at 6800.... on EFI.... dang would that be nice or what! > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1450 > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256239#256239 > > > > > > > > > > le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:56 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: WING BUILD START I second Tom's position. The plan is to have the outboard end of the wing at less angle of attack during flight. This improves stall characteristics as the outboard end will stall slightly later than the root end. So if the wing is upright, the washout block will be at the trailing edge of the outboard end. If the wing is inverted, the block would be under the leading edge, outboard. Excellent advice on buildint one right and one left wing. Sounds simple, but it has been done the other way - Oops. Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Second Build Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Covering Fuselage ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 5:58 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: WING BUILD START > > Lane, you will end up turning that wing over about 500 times before you > finish it. It is very important to have the washout block under the > correct end of the correct spar when you start. > > I'll go get my builders log and look at the pictures so I can remember how > I did it. > > Okay I am looking at a picture. I started with the wing upside down. The > washout block is under the Front spar tip.[u] > > Now before you go beyond the point of no return wait for someone else on > the list to verify this. Just for a double check. > > Be sure to build one left wing and one right wing. If you use the same > jig you will need to move the washout block so it is under the [u]front > spar tip when the wing is upside down. > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256319#256319 > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:40 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story That's like blaming the axe-for the axe murder, Larry. People tend to for get that Lawyers are just tools.-It takes a litigious individual or griev ing family to file the multimillion dollar-product liability lawsuit that results in stifled innovation. (Not to mention a receptive jury).-- - Our aircraft are, afterall, "experimental." So, we-experiment/ innovate a nd to hell with-potential litigation. And, if the snowmachine, boat, auto or homemade-part installed in our airplane fails, we resist the temptati on to look for someone to sue. - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch - do not archive --- On Thu, 8/6/09, Larry Huntley wrote: From: Larry Huntley Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story Hmmmm, can we possibly get lawyers barred from the field of aviation becaus e of the hazards they provide by indirectly stopping inovation that could m ake our machines safer. It is simple logic to me,but who am I?---;o) ---Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Av8r3400" Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 7:01 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story Lawyers.- As soon as any of the component manufacturers hear aircraft the y either run for cover or increase pricing by a factor of 10 (or more).- This is the same reason for the lack of fuel injection on the 900 series mo tors. le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:11 AM PST US From: Scott DeMeyer Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tool for positioning a bolt or washer plus nut When I worked at Boeing, I used the "glue the nut and washer to a stick" me thod daily. Works well! --- On Wed, 8/5/09, Lowell Fitt wrote: From: Lowell Fitt Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tool for positioning a bolt or washer plus nut Maurice, This might seem a bit primitive, but when I was helping the guy across the street build his Lancair, we used a lot of instant glue - cyanoacrylate. Fo r the insertion of the rudder bolts, I made some- aluminum strips - .040 X 1/2 inch - and glued the head of the bolt to the end of a strip and bent it to the shape I needed.- I suspect you could glue the washer to the nut and the combination to an aluminum strip and get a turn or two using a wre nch on the bolt. Also Harbor Freight has very larve hemostat like tools that I have used on my Kitfox build. Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Covering- Fuselage ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice" Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 8:59 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Tool for positioning a bolt or washer plus nut I have not been able to successfully google where I can obtain a tool for p ositioning a bolt, or washer plus nut, in a difficult to reach place.- I presently need it to mount my rudder. ---One of our brethren has an Esco Hingemate Australia AN3 + AN4.- I have been unable to locate it or anything similar. ---Any advice or help would be deeply appreciated. Maurice 7A 912S 72" IVO GA le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:47 AM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: WING BUILD START Lane, Remember the intent is to have less angle of attack at the outboard (tip) leading edge than the root. =BD=94 block equals about 1 degree of washout (twist) Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean Ph 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lst Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:57 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: WING BUILD START I'm just beginning my Model IV wing layout. I have the original 1993 manual and the newest build manual from Kitfox for the IV. Both manuals have language that infers that the wing is constructed in the jig with the wing upright, "..place the spars with the strut brace outlines facing down." One manual indicates placing the washout block under the rear spar while the other indicates placing under the front spar. Both have many pictures showing the wing being constructed in its inverted position. Two manuals--perhaps too much information. I'd appreciate any guidance as to what the wing build orientation is (if it matters), and under which spar is the 1/2" washout block, which does matter. I also realize that the washout block's position if relative to the wing being constructed upright or inverted. Thanks in advance, Lane ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:26 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR KItfox From: "JetPilot" Michel wrote: > > > From: JetPilot [orcabonita@hotmail.com] > > This guy obviously did not consider Icing flying IFR in winter. > > > > > > I know, Mike, I have a friend who went flying in icing fog. He reached only 200 ft AGL before he went down on the top of the trees. Broke the wings but could walk away from it. The snow makes an excellent cushion. > > Anyway, this Danish guy who asks about Kitfox is a F-16 pilot and I don't feel like teaching him aviation meteorology. > > Incidentally, he writes now, wondering if he has a chance to buy a IFR instrumented Kitfox in the US. If anyone knows one for sale. > > Cheers, > Michel Verheughe > Norway > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 > > Do not archive > > Michael, I know where you are coming from, you want to keep him as a friend. If you like feel free to send him a link to this thread so that he can see my posts, I don't mind taking the heat ;) A Kitfox is a great and very rewarding airplane to have, flying is worth every cent you spend on it, but it is recreation. When one trys to justify a single engine airplane as " Practical Transportation " to work and back thats when bad choices are made in relation to weather and people get themselves killed. I spent a bunch of money on my Kitfox, and is worth every cent, but I will always remember its recreation and enjoying life... It does not need to be practical :) Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256352#256352 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:45 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story Count me in for Sunday....Cadillac is a bit of a jaunt (geez, ever since I bought this Rotec TBI from the blokes in Australia, I've adapted their lingo) for me right now, but the Sugar Springs thing sounds like my kind of mission. I've been venturing further and further away from 'home' each time I fly it since I installed the new fuel system, and I don't want to get too far away in case something goes bad. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 724.6 hrs Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection Status: TBI installation done...tests flights underway do not archive On Aug 6, 2009, at 9:37 AM, Marco Menezes wrote: > Like I said Lynn, pancakes in Cadillac Saturday and/or at Sugar > Springs Sunday. Be there or be square. > > Marco Menezes N99KX > Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch > > do not archive > > > --- On Wed, 8/5/09, Lynn Matteson wrote: > > From: Lynn Matteson > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 8:39 PM > > > It seems low, Leonard, but today I was climbing at 800 fpm at 8200' > altitude, and it kept right on climbing, for as long as I held the > stick back, so it must be ok. It just doesn't seem right.... > I can't wait to make a trip with it and see how much fuel I burn in > a practical test. I'm getting bored "runnin' up and down the same > ol' strip, gotta find a new place where the kids are hip" > ....geez, did I REALLY say that? > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 723.8 hrs > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Rotec TBI-40 injection > Status: TBI installation done...tests flights underway > > > On Aug 5, 2009, at 6:54 PM, akflyer wrote: > > > > > > Lyn, I would not think the fuel flow is that out of line. When I > went from carbed to FI on my boat, I went from 23 GPH WOT to 13 GPH > WOT. Cruise went from 18 GPH to just under 7 GPH. > > > > I know that when running the snowmachines, the EFI 800 burns WAY > less fuel than my carbed 600 and WAY WAY less fuel than my carbed > 800. Hence my wanting to put the AC 800 EFI in my Avid. 120 HP > and 100# Tq at 6800.... on EFI.... dang would that be nice or what! > > > > -------- > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE > > Soldotna AK > > Avid "C" / Mk IV > > 582 IVO IFA > > Full Lotus 1450 > > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 > > > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256239#256239 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http:======================= > > > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:18 PM PST US From: "lst" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: WING BUILD START Thanks Tom and John confirms as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:58 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: WING BUILD START > > Lane, you will end up turning that wing over about 500 times before you > finish it. It is very important to have the washout block under the > correct end of the correct spar when you start. > > I'll go get my builders log and look at the pictures so I can remember how > I did it. > > Okay I am looking at a picture. I started with the wing upside down. The > washout block is under the Front spar tip.[u] > > Now before you go beyond the point of no return wait for someone else on > the list to verify this. Just for a double check. > > Be sure to build one left wing and one right wing. If you use the same > jig you will need to move the washout block so it is under the [u]front > spar tip when the wing is upside down. > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256319#256319 > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:37 PM PST US From: "lst" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: WING BUILD START Thanks again John; great to be able to confirm with experts and undoubtedly I'll look for more confirmation as I work through this very exciting build. ----- Original Message ----- From: jdmcbean To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 11:24 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: WING BUILD START Lane, Remember the intent is to have less angle of attack at the outboard (tip) leading edge than the root. =BD" block equals about 1 degree of washout (twist) Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean Ph 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lst Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:57 AM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Kitfox-List: WING BUILD START I'm just beginning my Model IV wing layout. I have the original 1993 manual and the newest build manual from Kitfox for the IV. Both manuals have language that infers that the wing is constructed in the jig with the wing upright, "..place the spars with the strut brace outlines facing down." One manual indicates placing the washout block under the rear spar while the other indicates placing under the front spar. Both have many pictures showing the wing being constructed in its inverted position. Two manuals--perhaps too much information. I'd appreciate any guidance as to what the wing build orientation is (if it matters), and under which spar is the 1/2" washout block, which does matter. I also realize that the washout block's position if relative to the wing being constructed upright or inverted. Thanks in advance, Lane http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Seat pan From: Patrick Reilly Mike, Sorry to take this long to reply. I'm having trouble with this new gmail format. I bet it would be very expensive to ship that seat pan. How much would it take to purchase it? If the price is right maybe it would be worth the postage. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Michael Laundy wrote: > Patrick, > > If you still want a seat pan I know where there may be one, but its over > here in the UK. so postage costs may be a bit expensive. My engineering > inspector has the remains of a KF 3 which is not repairable due to > corrosion. (It turned over during a water landing and water got into the > tubing and corroded them from the inside). > > He has supplied me with the pilots harness to replace my damaged one, and > may have other useable bits and pieces. > > Mike Laundy > > KF 3, Rotax 582, UK > > > --- On *Mon, 3/8/09, patrick reilly * wrote: > > > From: patrick reilly > Subject: Kitfox-List: Seat pan > To: "kitfox matronics" > Date: Monday, 3 August, 2009, 1:19 AM > > Kitfoxers, Does anyone have a fibre glass seat pan for a Model 3 that I can > buy? I hacked mine up trying to redesign it. > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford, IL > > ** > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR KItfox From: Patrick Reilly Len, Back in the early 50's they ended up taking away my great grandfather's car. Taking his lisence didn't stop him. After all he was a retired road commissioner of the county. Do Not Archive Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 rebuild Rockford, IL On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 6:26 PM, akflyer wrote: > > congrats on the medical! you are a better man than I. If I lost my > medical, I would still have kept on flying. The only way they can keep me > out of the air is to lock me up! Does not mean I dont want to be legal, > just means I love flying more than the laws. > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1450 > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256249#256249 > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:11 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Kitfox-List: Pancakes - was Rotec TBI success story Hope to see you on Sunday then. BTW, Cadillac ((KCAD)-is all of 8 minutes latitude further North than Sugar Springs (OMI1). :-) - Rain forecast for Saturday anyway. All you other Michigan Kitfox drivers, c ome on up! - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch do not archive --- On Thu, 8/6/09, Lynn Matteson wrote: From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec TBI success story Count me in for Sunday....Cadillac is a bit of a jaunt (geez, ever since I bought this Rotec TBI from the blokes in Australia, I've adapted their ling o) for me right now, but the Sugar Springs thing sounds like my kind of mis sion. I've been venturing further and further away from 'home' each time I fly it since I installed the new fuel- system, and I don't want to get to o far away in case something goes bad. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 724.6 hrs Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection Status: TBI installation done...tests flights underway do not archive On Aug 6, 2009, at 9:37 AM, Marco Menezes wrote: > Like I said Lynn, pancakes in Cadillac Saturday and/or at Sugar Springs S unday. Be there or be square. > > Marco Menezes N99KX > Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch > > do not archive=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:30 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR KItfox From: "n85ae" Mine is IFR, with a full panel, not just pseudo IFR but with Vor, glideslope, markers, gps, etc. I'm instrument rated, however I don't, and won't fly it IFR except for punching layers or very simple stuff. It is simply too much a hands on airplane. I think going flying IFR in the soup in a Kitfox, is asking for trouble. Even VFR it can be a pain to hold a precise heading and altitude. I flew a Diamond DA-20 recently that was considered sensitive, and it felt like a school bus as far as sensitivity goes compared to the Kitfox. Some might think they could do it, and probably will, but I'm not one of them. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256426#256426 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: WING BUILD START From: bob noffs lane, it is easy to reason this out. washout is made so the root end of the wing quits ''flying'' before the tip. this is so a stall wont make the airplane roll over. it will make the nose drop. so the wing is twisted so the root has the most angle of attack and stalls first. the tips have less angle of attack and are still ''flying'' as the nose drops. airspeed now picks up and the whole wing is soon generating lift again. bob noffs On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Tom Jones wrote: > > Lane, you will end up turning that wing over about 500 times before you > finish it. It is very important to have the washout block under the correct > end of the correct spar when you start. > > I'll go get my builders log and look at the pictures so I can remember how > I did it. > > Okay I am looking at a picture. I started with the wing upside down. The > washout block is under the Front spar tip.[u] > > Now before you go beyond the point of no return wait for someone else on > the list to verify this. Just for a double check. > > Be sure to build one left wing and one right wing. If you use the same jig > you will need to move the washout block so it is under the [u]front spar tip > when the wing is upside down. > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256319#256319 > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR KItfox From: bob noffs jeff, your judgement is very good. bob noffs On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 6:01 PM, n85ae wrote: > > Mine is IFR, with a full panel, not just pseudo IFR but with Vor, > glideslope, > markers, gps, etc. I'm instrument rated, however I don't, and won't fly it > IFR except for punching layers or very simple stuff. It is simply too much > a hands on airplane. I think going flying IFR in the soup in a Kitfox, is > asking for trouble. Even VFR it can be a pain to hold a precise heading > and altitude. I flew a Diamond DA-20 recently that was considered > sensitive, and it felt like a school bus as far as sensitivity goes > compared > to the Kitfox. > > Some might think they could do it, and probably will, but I'm not > one of them. > > Regards, > Jeff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256426#256426 > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:38 PM PST US From: Dee Young Subject: Kitfox-List: Flyin U12 We are having a flyin in St. Anthony=2C Idaho on September the 12th startin g at 10:00am till 2:00pm. Good spot to do some mountain flying and see some great country. The airport is U12 Standford Field. Good stip - paved - 100 LL available on the field. Hope to see you here=2C head to hanger 18 for so me RR and a cold drink and maybe a donut or ? Set in my hanger and watch th e strip from a nice location. Coffee will be on by 6:30am. See you here Dee Model II N345DY _________________________________________________________________ Get free photo software from Windows Live http://www.windowslive.com/online/photos?ocid=PID23393::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:e n-US:SI_PH_software:082009 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:26 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: IFR KItfox At 12:27 PM 8/5/2009, you wrote: >Incidentally, he writes now, wondering if he has a chance to buy a >IFR instrumented Kitfox in the US. If anyone knows one for sale. I volunteer to deliver it! Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting Do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.