Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:42 AM - Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (dave)
2. 06:43 AM - Re: Larger Elevator (Catz631@aol.com)
3. 07:25 AM - Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing (WurlyBird)
4. 07:31 AM - Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (carlisle)
5. 07:57 AM - Re: Larger Elevator (Lynn Matteson)
6. 11:14 AM - KF IV questions (Mark Napier (napierm))
7. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Larger Elevator (Clint Bazzill)
8. 12:51 PM - Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (Heinz Lang)
9. 03:28 PM - Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (carlisle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) |
I did some testing of Stol speed's V G's a few years ago.
I have used both Stop Speeds and Harrison VGs. STolspeed are the best value as
the adhesive comes with it and they have a less sharp trailing edge.
Mine are placed at 10% MAC -- I have never moved them around to optimize them.
Mine are on a Model IV that has a different wing than yours.
I saw about 1 to 2 mph stall reduction at the most, no cruise speed loss.
The biggest differance I found was there is no buffet on power off or power
on stalls. You will just mush during power off stalls. Power on stalls when
more aggressive there is no buffet or warning signs until the nose drops and
usually a wing will drop as well.
http://www.cfisher.com/cowl.html
http://www.cfisher.com/vg.html
I got cooling gains by using VGs under the cowl after some cowl mods.
All the being said , I have over 700 hours in last 2 years and have not removed
them or changed them yet.
If you do some searches on this forum you will find my comments likely about his
topic.
carlisle wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gor7LhsAILs
>
> OK, here's the new video with Stolspeed vortex generators added.
>
> Stall now happens around 30 mph instead of 35 and I can't get it to progress
out to the tip of the wing, even trying to hold it @ high pitch for a while with
power on. The last stall does fall off to the right a little and this vid
is of the left wing so I wonder if it didn't go ahead and go out to the tip on
that side.
>
> Also note; the flexing/flapping/oil canning fabric is no more. I did take a
heat gun to the entire upper surface after seeing the first vid but couldn't really
tell that that made much difference, at least to the 'feel' of the fabric
tension. I suppose the fabric might have loosened over the years a little. One
has to wonder though if the vg's are at least partially responsible for smoothing
out the boundary layer and therefore the fabric a little too.
>
> Guess I'll leave them on.
>
> Chris
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267548#267548
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| Subject: | Re: Larger Elevator |
James,
I agree with Guy,the gap seals do make a big difference with the elevator
. I had similar results with better elevator control when I applied the
gap seals. I used to use the gap sealing method that Guy uses but the tape
would start to peel after exposure to this hot Fl sun and I have gone thru
three different types. I am now using and X pattern with each leg of the X
about an inch long. The two pieces of tape are stuck together in the
middle(sticky side to sticky side oriented top to bottom at the elevator hinge
gap)
This method only fills the gap and has no to little overlap on the elevator
surface thus no gooey mess from the tape adhesive. One of the members on
this forum mentioned this method and it has worked very well for me.
Dick
Maddux
Fox 4
Milton,Fl
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| Subject: | Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing |
I don't really think that is paranoia Guy. $15 worth of tubing will redo the whole
plane and it only takes an hour or so. I would call that piece of mind.
I had not messed with any on mine since it had a fresh annual on purchase, of
course it was done by the seller . . . :?
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267572#267572
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| Subject: | Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) |
I used Stolspeed VG's. Kind of a cute little Mom/Pop operation out of Australia
where the guy apparently got started using them on his Zenith in place of the
big leading edge slat those planes have. He claims the vg's work better than
the slat. The web page is very informative though and IMO has sound aerodynamic
theory backing their installation.
http://www.stolspeed.com/
A generic set which includes 130 vg's, templates for installation, and some cool
sheets of 3M adhesive that holds them tight but can be overcome with steady
pressure so you can move them around is $97 (US). He doesn't charge for shipping.
The best evidence for an average plane is that they work about the same if placed
within a certain range of the total cord of the wing (including flaperons),
the best overall number being around 7% back from the leading edge. That's where
I put mine and I haven't moved them. Stolspeed is very candid about how
the experimentation he did within the recommended range didn't make much difference
in overall performance.
The templates that come with are just simple rectangles of cardboard with slots
cut out. The first 15 vg's beginning from the tip are spaced 30mm apart and
are at a 30 deg angle to the slipstream. This is to ensure that the stall occurs
at the wing tip last so as to preserve flow over any ailerons one might have
(not applicable for us but still a good idea). Remaining are placed at the
same angle but at 60 mm intervals all the way to the root.
I'll try and get a pic of the camera setup. Mean time, here's one of the wing
showing the vg's more clearly than in the vid.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267576#267576
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img00016_104.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Larger Elevator |
I just lay 2" wide racer's tape (orange, of course) across the gap
with the elevator in the down position....then I write the date on
it. Some of the tape applied in Oct of 2008 is needing replacement.
Adhesive removal is pretty easy with mineral spirits (paint thinner).
I found that in my model airplane "career" that doing the "X"
pattern, or the over/under method, that stuff could catch in the "V"
and I didn't like that.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 791.3 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~211 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Oct 12, 2009, at 9:37 AM, Catz631@aol.com wrote:
> James,
> I agree with Guy,the gap seals do make a big difference with the
> elevator . I had similar results with better elevator control when
> I applied the gap seals. I used to use the gap sealing method that
> Guy uses but the tape would start to peel after exposure to this
> hot Fl sun and I have gone thru three different types. I am now
> using and X pattern with each leg of the X about an inch long. The
> two pieces of tape are stuck together in the middle(sticky side to
> sticky side oriented top to bottom at the elevator hinge gap) This
> method only fills the gap and has no to little overlap on the
> elevator surface thus no gooey mess from the tape adhesive. One of
> the members on this forum mentioned this method and it has worked
> very well for me.
>
> Dick Maddux
>
> Fox 4
>
> Milton,Fl
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 6
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Hello,
I've recently picked up a 2002 classic IV fuselage and have a couple of
idiot questions.
1st: I notice the mounting tabs for the cowling and turtle-deck are much
smaller than the ones on my KF III and the 1/4 turn fasters that I have
won't fit. What hardware is used here? I intend to essentially scratch
make the finishing kit.
2nd: I see a few small horizontal tabs on each side on the upper tube
just aft of the wing in the turtle-deck area. What are these used for?
Thank you much,
Mark Napier
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 2:59 AM
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:28 AM - Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (carlisle)
2. 12:29 PM - Blue Bing Fuel Tubing (WurlyBird)
3. 04:24 PM - Re: tire wear out side (Roger Lee)
4. 05:29 PM - Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing (Tom Jones)
5. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (fox5flyer)
6. 08:42 PM - Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing (WurlyBird)
7. 08:47 PM - Re: Larger Elevator (WurlyBird)
8. 09:40 PM - Re: Re: Larger Elevator (Guy Buchanan)
9. 09:48 PM - Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing (Guy Buchanan)
10. 10:43 PM - Re: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (Michael
Gibbs)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 11:28:19 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video)
From: "carlisle" <carlisle_99@yahoo.com>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gor7LhsAILs
OK, here's the new video with Stolspeed vortex generators added.
Stall now happens around 30 mph instead of 35 and I can't get it to
progress out
to the tip of the wing, even trying to hold it @ high pitch for a while
with
power on. The last stall does fall off to the right a little and this
vid is
of the left wing so I wonder if it didn't go ahead and go out to the tip
on that
side.
Also note; the flexing/flapping/oil canning fabric is no more. I did
take a heat
gun to the entire upper surface after seeing the first vid but couldn't
really
tell that that made much difference, at least to the 'feel' of the
fabric
tension. I suppose the fabric might have loosened over the years a
little. One
has to wonder though if the vg's are at least partially responsible for
smoothing
out the boundary layer and therefore the fabric a little too.
Guess I'll leave them on.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267496#267496
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 12:29:38 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing
From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Is there any reason to not use the blue polyurethane fuel tubing from
Bing on the
pressure side of the fuel pump? I need to replace some tubing and that
is
what I have on hand and understand can be used but the tubing that is
coming off
is 2 layer with webbing (presumably nylon) in between. Is this heavy of
tubing
needed between the pump and the carb?
Sorry I always have the stupid questions, unfortunately I can spend all
day at
work on the net but if I bust out experimental aircraft manuals people
get upset.
Thanks for the help.
James
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267502#267502
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 04:24:36 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: tire wear out side
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
I'm with Guy. Check the tires toe-in, out and camber.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267517#267517
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 05:29:36 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing
From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
James asked:
> Is there any reason to not use the blue polyurethane fuel tubing from
Bing on
the pressure side of the fuel pump?
That is what I have been using.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267521#267521
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 06:26:06 PM PST US
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video)
Again, another great video, Chris. Thanks. Please tell us more about
your
VGs. Where you obtained them, how much you paid, etc. Also, how did
you
determine exactly where to place them on the wing, especially the
spacing.
Any other observations welcome.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 439+ TT
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
----- Original Message -----
From: "carlisle" <carlisle_99@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 2:25 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gor7LhsAILs
>
> OK, here's the new video with Stolspeed vortex generators added.
>
> Stall now happens around 30 mph instead of 35 and I can't get it to
> progress out to the tip of the wing, even trying to hold it @ high
pitch
> for a while with power on. The last stall does fall off to the right
a
> little and this vid is of the left wing so I wonder if it didn't go
ahead
> and go out to the tip on that side.
>
> Also note; the flexing/flapping/oil canning fabric is no more. I did
take
> a heat gun to the entire upper surface after seeing the first vid but
> couldn't really tell that that made much difference, at least to the
> 'feel' of the fabric tension. I suppose the fabric might have loosened
> over the years a little. One has to wonder though if the vg's are at
least
> partially responsible for smoothing out the boundary layer and
therefore
> the fabric a little too.
>
> Guess I'll leave them on.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267496#267496
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 08:42:09 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing
From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Now that there is time, here is why I am replacing the lines. A fun
"luck" story.
I was giving a ride to a friend and we took off in marginal winds, 10
gusting
17 straight down the runway, but it was the forecast high for the day so
we went with it. At some point I decided we were done and we headed
back. AWOS
called 17 gusting 27 still straight down the runway, at least we were
going
to have a low ground speed at touchdown. I opted to not do my normal 3
touch
and goes to end the flight and we landed just the once with a walking
speed touchdown
and a 30 foot roll out. As we got out my friend asked if the fluid
draining
out of the cowl was normal, it was fuel. The fuel line that was used
had become quite hardened and apparently cracked at the rear carb. I
later told
my friend how if we had taken off on a touch and go the rear carb would
have
starved and we would have had partial power at best on climb out and we
would
have landed in a best case scenario with a 20 kt tail wind on the
runway.
I figured the reinforced fuel line was excessive but I just couldn't
step down
straight to the blue lines with out knowing, so this morning I replaced
both lines
from the pump with fuel injection tubing so there was no question.
Clocked
1.3 today with no issues. I will be switching to the bing lines through
out
when I redo the fuel system later this year.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267531#267531
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 08:47:14 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Larger Elevator
From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Thanks for the reply Clint. . . .
So, any input on how it works? :D
Guy, I have not sealed the gap although I have read a little about it.
A quick
search has not yet turned up any stories about it or how to do it. Have
you
done it? Does it make a big enough difference as to not need the larger
elevator?
What was your method?
As always, thanks for the help.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267532#267532
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 09:40:04 PM PST US
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Larger Elevator
At 08:44 PM 10/11/2009, you wrote:
>Guy, I have not sealed the gap although I have read a little about
>it. A quick search has not yet turned up any stories about it or
>how to do it. Have you done it? Does it make a big enough
>difference as to not need the larger elevator? What was your method?
James,
It's been a while, but to quantify: before I gap sealed I
could only get the tail wheel to about 1' of altitude when 3-pointing
with full aft stick and full flaps. After I gap sealed I was able to
easily get the tailwheel on the ground first. It was a very
noticeable difference. I was not able to notice any difference in
flight.
I gap sealed using heavy duty clear packing tape. I do the
method where you take two 1 1/2" wide pieces, reversing one onto the
other so there's only about 1/2" of sticky stuff on both edges, and
then stick one edge to the top of the elevator and one to the bottom
of the horizontal, crossing the gap. I've had to replace them twice
in three-four years and 460 hours. It takes about an hour now that I
know how. If you're careful about keeping finger prints and bugs and
fuzz off it looks pretty good, too.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 09:48:21 PM PST US
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing
At 12:27 PM 10/11/2009, you wrote:
>Is there any reason to not use the blue polyurethane fuel tubing
>from Bing on the pressure side of the fuel pump? I need to replace
>some tubing and that is what I have on hand and understand can be
>used but the tubing that is coming off is 2 layer with webbing
>(presumably nylon) in between. Is this heavy of tubing needed
>between the pump and the carb?
James,
I've been using it downstream of the pump for the last few
years and about 460 hours. No problem. I replace the stuff in the
engine compartment yearly, though. (Paranoid.)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 10:43:15 PM PST US
From: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video)
> Again, another great video, Chris.
I agree! Do you have a picture of your camera rig (or did I miss it)?
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Larger Elevator |
The large elevator on the Kitfox Model IV increases elevator authority wit
h the use of flaps. I use flaps all the time and it does increase the nose
up on landing. It also increases the stick pressure during flight=2C that
is good because it matches the roll forces a little better. If you want t
o use it on a Model 3=2C probably won't work.
Clint
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Larger Elevator
> From: james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil
> Date: Sun=2C 11 Oct 2009 20:44:57 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
mil>
>
> Thanks for the reply Clint. . . .
> So=2C any input on how it works? :D
>
> Guy=2C I have not sealed the gap although I have read a little about it.
A quick search has not yet turned up any stories about it or how to do it.
Have you done it? Does it make a big enough difference as to not need the l
arger elevator? What was your method?
>
> As always=2C thanks for the help.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> The ink is still drying on my new certificate
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267532#267532
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) |
Hello Chris
Thanks for the very interesting message and video. Meanwhile I have also
put VGs on the elevator (58) and wings (68)and flown the first time with
them yesterday. I have a Kitfox IV with Rotax 582LC and warp drive 3
blade 70". My observations are: stallspeed 3..5mph lower, but only with
power on. This means, similar as yours. Secondly, the stall seems to be
better controllable, smoother as before. I have the feeling, that the
aircraft is more stable, specially in thight turns. I also will leave
the VGs on, because I think that it is an improvement and helps to land
"uphill" at mountain airfields and glaciers.
Heinz
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) |
Here's the camera setup. Just a cheap webcam shoved up through a hole drilled
in the roof Lexan just where it meets the turtle deck. Gonna replace the Lexan
this winter anyway. Everything held in place with nylon tie wraps. Laptop
sits on passenger seat where I can fuss with it in flight. Plan to do some more
vids with it facing foward and backwards!
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267651#267651
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img00017_124.jpg
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