---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/12/09: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:42 AM - Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (dave) 2. 06:43 AM - Re: Larger Elevator (Catz631@aol.com) 3. 07:25 AM - Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing (WurlyBird) 4. 07:31 AM - Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (carlisle) 5. 07:57 AM - Re: Larger Elevator (Lynn Matteson) 6. 11:14 AM - KF IV questions (Mark Napier (napierm)) 7. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Larger Elevator (Clint Bazzill) 8. 12:51 PM - Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (Heinz Lang) 9. 03:28 PM - Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (carlisle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:53 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) From: "dave" I did some testing of Stol speed's V G's a few years ago. I have used both Stop Speeds and Harrison VGs. STolspeed are the best value as the adhesive comes with it and they have a less sharp trailing edge. Mine are placed at 10% MAC -- I have never moved them around to optimize them. Mine are on a Model IV that has a different wing than yours. I saw about 1 to 2 mph stall reduction at the most, no cruise speed loss. The biggest differance I found was there is no buffet on power off or power on stalls. You will just mush during power off stalls. Power on stalls when more aggressive there is no buffet or warning signs until the nose drops and usually a wing will drop as well. http://www.cfisher.com/cowl.html http://www.cfisher.com/vg.html I got cooling gains by using VGs under the cowl after some cowl mods. All the being said , I have over 700 hours in last 2 years and have not removed them or changed them yet. If you do some searches on this forum you will find my comments likely about his topic. carlisle wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gor7LhsAILs > > OK, here's the new video with Stolspeed vortex generators added. > > Stall now happens around 30 mph instead of 35 and I can't get it to progress out to the tip of the wing, even trying to hold it @ high pitch for a while with power on. The last stall does fall off to the right a little and this vid is of the left wing so I wonder if it didn't go ahead and go out to the tip on that side. > > Also note; the flexing/flapping/oil canning fabric is no more. I did take a heat gun to the entire upper surface after seeing the first vid but couldn't really tell that that made much difference, at least to the 'feel' of the fabric tension. I suppose the fabric might have loosened over the years a little. One has to wonder though if the vg's are at least partially responsible for smoothing out the boundary layer and therefore the fabric a little too. > > Guess I'll leave them on. > > Chris -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada http://www.cfisher.com/ Awesome *New Forum * http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267548#267548 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:55 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Larger Elevator James, I agree with Guy,the gap seals do make a big difference with the elevator . I had similar results with better elevator control when I applied the gap seals. I used to use the gap sealing method that Guy uses but the tape would start to peel after exposure to this hot Fl sun and I have gone thru three different types. I am now using and X pattern with each leg of the X about an inch long. The two pieces of tape are stuck together in the middle(sticky side to sticky side oriented top to bottom at the elevator hinge gap) This method only fills the gap and has no to little overlap on the elevator surface thus no gooey mess from the tape adhesive. One of the members on this forum mentioned this method and it has worked very well for me. Dick Maddux Fox 4 Milton,Fl ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:06 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing From: "WurlyBird" I don't really think that is paranoia Guy. $15 worth of tubing will redo the whole plane and it only takes an hour or so. I would call that piece of mind. I had not messed with any on mine since it had a fresh annual on purchase, of course it was done by the seller . . . :? -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop The ink is still drying on my new certificate Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267572#267572 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:30 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) From: "carlisle" I used Stolspeed VG's. Kind of a cute little Mom/Pop operation out of Australia where the guy apparently got started using them on his Zenith in place of the big leading edge slat those planes have. He claims the vg's work better than the slat. The web page is very informative though and IMO has sound aerodynamic theory backing their installation. http://www.stolspeed.com/ A generic set which includes 130 vg's, templates for installation, and some cool sheets of 3M adhesive that holds them tight but can be overcome with steady pressure so you can move them around is $97 (US). He doesn't charge for shipping. The best evidence for an average plane is that they work about the same if placed within a certain range of the total cord of the wing (including flaperons), the best overall number being around 7% back from the leading edge. That's where I put mine and I haven't moved them. Stolspeed is very candid about how the experimentation he did within the recommended range didn't make much difference in overall performance. The templates that come with are just simple rectangles of cardboard with slots cut out. The first 15 vg's beginning from the tip are spaced 30mm apart and are at a 30 deg angle to the slipstream. This is to ensure that the stall occurs at the wing tip last so as to preserve flow over any ailerons one might have (not applicable for us but still a good idea). Remaining are placed at the same angle but at 60 mm intervals all the way to the root. I'll try and get a pic of the camera setup. Mean time, here's one of the wing showing the vg's more clearly than in the vid. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267576#267576 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img00016_104.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:20 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Larger Elevator I just lay 2" wide racer's tape (orange, of course) across the gap with the elevator in the down position....then I write the date on it. Some of the tape applied in Oct of 2008 is needing replacement. Adhesive removal is pretty easy with mineral spirits (paint thinner). I found that in my model airplane "career" that doing the "X" pattern, or the over/under method, that stuff could catch in the "V" and I didn't like that. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 791.3 hrs Countdown to 1000 hrs~211 to go Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection Status: flying On Oct 12, 2009, at 9:37 AM, Catz631@aol.com wrote: > James, > I agree with Guy,the gap seals do make a big difference with the > elevator . I had similar results with better elevator control when > I applied the gap seals. I used to use the gap sealing method that > Guy uses but the tape would start to peel after exposure to this > hot Fl sun and I have gone thru three different types. I am now > using and X pattern with each leg of the X about an inch long. The > two pieces of tape are stuck together in the middle(sticky side to > sticky side oriented top to bottom at the elevator hinge gap) This > method only fills the gap and has no to little overlap on the > elevator surface thus no gooey mess from the tape adhesive. One of > the members on this forum mentioned this method and it has worked > very well for me. > > Dick Maddux > > Fox 4 > > Milton,Fl > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:34 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: KF IV questions From: "Mark Napier (napierm)" Hello, I've recently picked up a 2002 classic IV fuselage and have a couple of idiot questions. 1st: I notice the mounting tabs for the cowling and turtle-deck are much smaller than the ones on my KF III and the 1/4 turn fasters that I have won't fit. What hardware is used here? I intend to essentially scratch make the finishing kit. 2nd: I see a few small horizontal tabs on each side on the upper tube just aft of the wing in the turtle-deck area. What are these used for? Thank you much, Mark Napier -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kitfox-List Digest Server Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 2:59 AM Subject: Kitfox-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 10/11/09 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Kitfox-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Kitfox-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha pter 09-10-11&Archive=Kitfox Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap ter 09-10-11&Archive=Kitfox =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/11/09: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:28 AM - Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (carlisle) 2. 12:29 PM - Blue Bing Fuel Tubing (WurlyBird) 3. 04:24 PM - Re: tire wear out side (Roger Lee) 4. 05:29 PM - Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing (Tom Jones) 5. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (fox5flyer) 6. 08:42 PM - Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing (WurlyBird) 7. 08:47 PM - Re: Larger Elevator (WurlyBird) 8. 09:40 PM - Re: Re: Larger Elevator (Guy Buchanan) 9. 09:48 PM - Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing (Guy Buchanan) 10. 10:43 PM - Re: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) (Michael Gibbs) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:28:19 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) From: "carlisle" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gor7LhsAILs OK, here's the new video with Stolspeed vortex generators added. Stall now happens around 30 mph instead of 35 and I can't get it to progress out to the tip of the wing, even trying to hold it @ high pitch for a while with power on. The last stall does fall off to the right a little and this vid is of the left wing so I wonder if it didn't go ahead and go out to the tip on that side. Also note; the flexing/flapping/oil canning fabric is no more. I did take a heat gun to the entire upper surface after seeing the first vid but couldn't really tell that that made much difference, at least to the 'feel' of the fabric tension. I suppose the fabric might have loosened over the years a little. One has to wonder though if the vg's are at least partially responsible for smoothing out the boundary layer and therefore the fabric a little too. Guess I'll leave them on. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267496#267496 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:38 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing From: "WurlyBird" Is there any reason to not use the blue polyurethane fuel tubing from Bing on the pressure side of the fuel pump? I need to replace some tubing and that is what I have on hand and understand can be used but the tubing that is coming off is 2 layer with webbing (presumably nylon) in between. Is this heavy of tubing needed between the pump and the carb? Sorry I always have the stupid questions, unfortunately I can spend all day at work on the net but if I bust out experimental aircraft manuals people get upset. Thanks for the help. James -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop The ink is still drying on my new certificate Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267502#267502 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:36 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: tire wear out side From: "Roger Lee" I'm with Guy. Check the tires toe-in, out and camber. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267517#267517 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:36 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing From: "Tom Jones" James asked: > Is there any reason to not use the blue polyurethane fuel tubing from Bing on the pressure side of the fuel pump? That is what I have been using. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267521#267521 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:06 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) Again, another great video, Chris. Thanks. Please tell us more about your VGs. Where you obtained them, how much you paid, etc. Also, how did you determine exactly where to place them on the wing, especially the spacing. Any other observations welcome. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 439+ TT "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand." -- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006) ----- Original Message ----- From: "carlisle" Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gor7LhsAILs > > OK, here's the new video with Stolspeed vortex generators added. > > Stall now happens around 30 mph instead of 35 and I can't get it to > progress out to the tip of the wing, even trying to hold it @ high pitch > for a while with power on. The last stall does fall off to the right a > little and this vid is of the left wing so I wonder if it didn't go ahead > and go out to the tip on that side. > > Also note; the flexing/flapping/oil canning fabric is no more. I did take > a heat gun to the entire upper surface after seeing the first vid but > couldn't really tell that that made much difference, at least to the > 'feel' of the fabric tension. I suppose the fabric might have loosened > over the years a little. One has to wonder though if the vg's are at least > partially responsible for smoothing out the boundary layer and therefore > the fabric a little too. > > Guess I'll leave them on. > > Chris > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267496#267496 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:09 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing From: "WurlyBird" Now that there is time, here is why I am replacing the lines. A fun "luck" story. I was giving a ride to a friend and we took off in marginal winds, 10 gusting 17 straight down the runway, but it was the forecast high for the day so we went with it. At some point I decided we were done and we headed back. AWOS called 17 gusting 27 still straight down the runway, at least we were going to have a low ground speed at touchdown. I opted to not do my normal 3 touch and goes to end the flight and we landed just the once with a walking speed touchdown and a 30 foot roll out. As we got out my friend asked if the fluid draining out of the cowl was normal, it was fuel. The fuel line that was used had become quite hardened and apparently cracked at the rear carb. I later told my friend how if we had taken off on a touch and go the rear carb would have starved and we would have had partial power at best on climb out and we would have landed in a best case scenario with a 20 kt tail wind on the runway. I figured the reinforced fuel line was excessive but I just couldn't step down straight to the blue lines with out knowing, so this morning I replaced both lines from the pump with fuel injection tubing so there was no question. Clocked 1.3 today with no issues. I will be switching to the bing lines through out when I redo the fuel system later this year. -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop The ink is still drying on my new certificate Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267531#267531 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:14 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Larger Elevator From: "WurlyBird" Thanks for the reply Clint. . . . So, any input on how it works? :D Guy, I have not sealed the gap although I have read a little about it. A quick search has not yet turned up any stories about it or how to do it. Have you done it? Does it make a big enough difference as to not need the larger elevator? What was your method? As always, thanks for the help. -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop The ink is still drying on my new certificate Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267532#267532 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:04 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Larger Elevator At 08:44 PM 10/11/2009, you wrote: >Guy, I have not sealed the gap although I have read a little about >it. A quick search has not yet turned up any stories about it or >how to do it. Have you done it? Does it make a big enough >difference as to not need the larger elevator? What was your method? James, It's been a while, but to quantify: before I gap sealed I could only get the tail wheel to about 1' of altitude when 3-pointing with full aft stick and full flaps. After I gap sealed I was able to easily get the tailwheel on the ground first. It was a very noticeable difference. I was not able to notice any difference in flight. I gap sealed using heavy duty clear packing tape. I do the method where you take two 1 1/2" wide pieces, reversing one onto the other so there's only about 1/2" of sticky stuff on both edges, and then stick one edge to the top of the elevator and one to the bottom of the horizontal, crossing the gap. I've had to replace them twice in three-four years and 460 hours. It takes about an hour now that I know how. If you're careful about keeping finger prints and bugs and fuzz off it looks pretty good, too. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:21 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Blue Bing Fuel Tubing At 12:27 PM 10/11/2009, you wrote: >Is there any reason to not use the blue polyurethane fuel tubing >from Bing on the pressure side of the fuel pump? I need to replace >some tubing and that is what I have on hand and understand can be >used but the tubing that is coming off is 2 layer with webbing >(presumably nylon) in between. Is this heavy of tubing needed >between the pump and the carb? James, I've been using it downstream of the pump for the last few years and about 460 hours. No problem. I replace the stuff in the engine compartment yearly, though. (Paranoid.) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:15 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) > Again, another great video, Chris. I agree! Do you have a picture of your camera rig (or did I miss it)? Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:22 AM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Larger Elevator The large elevator on the Kitfox Model IV increases elevator authority wit h the use of flaps. I use flaps all the time and it does increase the nose up on landing. It also increases the stick pressure during flight=2C that is good because it matches the roll forces a little better. If you want t o use it on a Model 3=2C probably won't work. Clint > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Larger Elevator > From: james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil > Date: Sun=2C 11 Oct 2009 20:44:57 -0700 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > mil> > > Thanks for the reply Clint. . . . > So=2C any input on how it works? :D > > Guy=2C I have not sealed the gap although I have read a little about it. A quick search has not yet turned up any stories about it or how to do it. Have you done it? Does it make a big enough difference as to not need the l arger elevator? What was your method? > > As always=2C thanks for the help. > > -------- > James > Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop > The ink is still drying on my new certificate > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267532#267532 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:27 PM PST US From: "Heinz Lang" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: tuft/stall testing (with video) Hello Chris Thanks for the very interesting message and video. Meanwhile I have also put VGs on the elevator (58) and wings (68)and flown the first time with them yesterday. I have a Kitfox IV with Rotax 582LC and warp drive 3 blade 70". My observations are: stallspeed 3..5mph lower, but only with power on. This means, similar as yours. Secondly, the stall seems to be better controllable, smoother as before. I have the feeling, that the aircraft is more stable, specially in thight turns. I also will leave the VGs on, because I think that it is an improvement and helps to land "uphill" at mountain airfields and glaciers. Heinz ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:25 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: tuft/stall testing (with video) From: "carlisle" Here's the camera setup. Just a cheap webcam shoved up through a hole drilled in the roof Lexan just where it meets the turtle deck. Gonna replace the Lexan this winter anyway. Everything held in place with nylon tie wraps. Laptop sits on passenger seat where I can fuss with it in flight. Plan to do some more vids with it facing foward and backwards! Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267651#267651 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img00017_124.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.