---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/22/09: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:11 AM - Re: Torquing prop bolts (Av8r3400) 2. 05:57 AM - Re: Re-Kreem Fuel Tanks (Pete Christensen) 3. 06:45 AM - Re: Re-Kreem Fuel Tanks (paul wilson) 4. 08:26 AM - Re: Fw: fuel proof epoxy (Noelloveys) 5. 08:44 AM - How much fuel do YOU carry? (Guy Buchanan) 6. 09:08 AM - 582 Ignition (verizon) 7. 10:08 AM - Re: How much fuel do YOU carry? (Lynn Matteson) 8. 11:25 AM - Re: Duct tape (akflyer) 9. 11:30 AM - Re: How much fuel do YOU carry? (akflyer) 10. 11:39 AM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 40 Msgs - 10/19/09 (akflyer) 11. 01:00 PM - Fuel (Robert Rivard) 12. 01:36 PM - Re: Re: Torquing prop bolts (Noelloveys) 13. 03:31 PM - Re: Fuel (Lowell Fitt) 14. 05:01 PM - Re: Torquing prop bolts (carlisle) 15. 06:07 PM - Re: Torquing prop bolts (Tom Jones) 16. 07:34 PM - Re: Torquing prop bolts (carlisle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:36 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Torquing prop bolts From: "Av8r3400" Check this out. (http://www.belknaptools.com/extcalc.asp) This was part of my response to the original poster on the Team Kitfox Forum. -------- Thanks, Av8r3400 Kitfox Model IV-1200 W/912UL & IVO Kitfox Model IV-1050 W/912UL & Warp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268898#268898 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:22 AM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re-Kreem Fuel Tanks If you Kreem your fuel tanks how do you protect the various holes like site gauge etc. from being plugged. Pete KFIII, 912 ----- Original Message ----- From: Kitfoxkirk To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:33 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re-Kreem Fuel Tanks Hello Paul, You say you are flying again. What type of fuel lines did you install on your newly Kreemed fuel tanks? I have been experiencing the same thing. My engine started to run rough about four years ago. I just completed the re-slosh with Kreem and I bought some fuel line at NAPA auto stores. It is black rubber gas line. I would expect that ethanol and any other auto fuel will not harm this fuel line. I do not know about 100LL however. I sometimes fuel up with 100LL during cross country flights. Thanks, Kirk Martenson Classic IV 912UL ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:17 AM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re-Kreem Fuel Tanks Take out all of them and replace with pipe plugs. Then put them back in with your original sealant. Paul =============== At 05:52 AM 10/22/2009, you wrote: >If you Kreem your fuel tanks how do you protect the various holes >like site gauge etc. from being plugged. > > >Pete >KFIII, 912 > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Kitfoxkirk >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:33 PM >Subject: Kitfox-List: Re-Kreem Fuel Tanks > >Hello Paul, > >You say you are flying again. What type of fuel lines did you >install on your newly Kreemed fuel tanks? > >I have been experiencing the same thing. My engine started to run >rough about four years ago. I just completed the re-slosh with Kreem >and I bought some fuel line at NAPA auto stores. It is black rubber >gas line. I would expect that ethanol and any other auto fuel will >not harm this fuel line. I do not know about 100LL however. I >sometimes fuel up with 100LL during cross country flights. > > >Thanks, > > >Kirk Martenson > >Classic IV 912UL > > >href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:22 AM PST US From: "Noelloveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fwd: fuel proof epoxy Fuel proof can mean a myriad of things. The problem isn't gasoline it's the ethanol they are now putting in the gas in a lot of places. When questioning the manufacturers it is ethanol you need to specifically ask about. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob noffs Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 7:47 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Fwd: fuel proof epoxy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: bob noffs Subject: fuel proof epoxy a lot of web time and phone calling and i learned one thing..........lots of mfgrs. will say the ''R'' word[resistant] but no one wants to say the ''p'' word [proof] when it comes to an epoxy standing up to gasoline. i finally found one described as fuelproof. perhaps it is or perhaps the guy on the phone was blowing smoke you know where. i ordered ''red epoxy''. this was after going thru mcmaster carr, grainger, jb weld and several other epoxy mfgers. we will see. thanks to all who replied. bob noffs p.s. anyone have experience with removing a jet from a carb with an easyout?! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:32 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Kitfox-List: How much fuel do YOU carry? At 09:57 AM 10/21/2009, you wrote: >All I'm suggesting is that for local trips around the patch, flying >to the local $100 'burger joint, or just flying for an hour in the >evening, it is not necessary...for me...to fly with FULL tanks every >time I take off, IF you have two 13-gallon tanks. You have to do the >math, and see if you NEED to lug all that fuel with you. Lynn, Fuel quantity is relative. I could, I suppose, put a 33 gallon fuel tank in the right seat, as well as my 26 gallons of wing tank fuel, for every launch that I don't carry a passenger. That way I'd be sure of getting where I was going, with lots of options. However, here in SoCal one hour of extra fuel (5 gallons) will generally find you a VMC airport with fuel so I really don't understand the requirement to carry more. I've flown in places where that wasn't true, and there I carry more fuel. The bottom line is that flying is a thinking game, with Draconian punishments for the thoughtless, and the only thing that will keep you 100% safe is to stay on the ground. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:04 AM PST US From: "verizon" Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Ignition Am i correct in that.............Once a 582 is running..........outside of turning the ignition off (master key switch off ) is there anything else outside of a wiring problem in between that switch and the ignition that would keep the engine from running continual? The redundency in the ducatii ignition and the charging system inside the engine should keep it running even in the event of an electrical battery or electrical relay failure? What is the likelyhood of the ignition system itself failing? Ignition on both wires of one cylinder would certainly bring down a fox but has anyone heard someone talk about this on the list? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:16 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: How much fuel do YOU carry? Exactly my point, Guy. Enough fuel for the mission whether it be crossing the Atlantic, or hopping from Yucca Valley to Twentynine Palms. Around here, with the flatness of the land, and airports abundant, there is not the burning need to keep the tanks at maximum full. Maybe an axiom could be drawn from this....the fuller the tank, the shallower the thinking need be. Or, "the emptier the tank, the fuller the brain must be" And speaking of abundant airports, there are something like 200 charted airports in Michigan, and over 500 that are not charted, or private. I bought a list of the uncharted ones, but in an emergency, there usually isn't time to figure where you are, consult the list, pick out one and land there. When I had my little problem the other day, I got lucky to see one of these uncharted fields and land there. The point is, if there are that many airfields, one is usually nearby.....not a reason to run out of fuel just to test one's luck, but comforting nonetheless. I got lucky the other day and cheated Draco out of a good thrashing....so I polished up my thinking cap, and will do my best to "keep on thinking free." (Moody Blues) : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 801.4 hrs Countdown to 1000 hrs--199 to go Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection Status: flying (and learning) On Oct 22, 2009, at 11:33 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > > At 09:57 AM 10/21/2009, you wrote: >> All I'm suggesting is that for local trips around the patch, flying >> to the local $100 'burger joint, or just flying for an hour in the >> evening, it is not necessary...for me...to fly with FULL tanks every >> time I take off, IF you have two 13-gallon tanks. You have to do the >> math, and see if you NEED to lug all that fuel with you. > > Lynn, > Fuel quantity is relative. I could, I suppose, put a 33 > gallon fuel tank in the right seat, as well as my 26 gallons of > wing tank fuel, for every launch that I don't carry a passenger. > That way I'd be sure of getting where I was going, with lots of > options. However, here in SoCal one hour of extra fuel (5 gallons) > will generally find you a VMC airport with fuel so I really don't > understand the requirement to carry more. I've flown in places > where that wasn't true, and there I carry more fuel. The bottom > line is that flying is a thinking game, with Draconian punishments > for the thoughtless, and the only thing that will keep you 100% > safe is to stay on the ground. > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:01 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Duct tape From: "akflyer" sorry to disappoint you, no snake oil this one is very true! I think that was in 79 or 80 that it happened. I can promise you that Kenny wishes it was made up, he would not have had to buy and new plane and rebuild the cabin! -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1450 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268951#268951 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:07 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: How much fuel do YOU carry? From: "akflyer" enough to carry out the planned flight, with about an hour reserve Not very often I take off with more than 15 gallons on board for a normal flight. I have topped the tanks off a few times and she gets kinda piggy with a passenger and full tanks. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1450 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268952#268952 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:29 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 40 Msgs - 10/19/09 From: "akflyer" edgraydallas wrote: > Lynn, you are trippin man! I didn't know wacky tobacky grew up in Michigan. > You didn't really think ole Snake just took of one blade and flew with the > other two not opposed, did you? Anyhow, you guys constantly entertain me. > My bird is flying and I bought home-made floats from Canada, (Muktuk > pattern) so hope to be on water next summer.I'll send a pic to the digest. > > Ed Gray, dallas, KFII 582 gsc > > -- I was looking at those floats for a buddy of mine. What size patterns did you get? snake... BTW, you know, the way you guys make it sound, you would think I have made a jackass movie for airplanes... hmmmm maybe I should call MTV and see if they are looking for new show ideas. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1450 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268954#268954 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:22 PM PST US From: Robert Rivard Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel I recently acquired a KitFox 4 classic.What is creamed tanks? Is their a problem I should be aware of? My windshield will need replacing in the near future. Is this something I can fabricate out of Lexon or must it be factory formed. BOB ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:58 PM PST US From: "Noelloveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Torquing prop bolts Changes in torque can be significant especially when torquing composite and wooden props. The easiest way to eliminate and deviation in torque form what is delivered by a properly calibrated torque wrench is to always apply the final torque with the crows foot at 90 degrees to the torque wrench. This is easy to verify by simply torquing a nut and bolt put through an old piece of scrap steel. Then checking the torque without the crow foot. For those of you worried about a crow foot slipping you can also use a cable or hose wrench. It looks like a cross between a crow foot and a ring wrench. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 10:13 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Torquing prop bolts Here you go. See attached for Crowsfoot torque calculation. It's not a huge change, just a slight one. Play with the calculation it isn't hard. Just kind of fill in the blanks and a simple math problem. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268863#268863 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/torque_with_a_crowfoot_calculation_172.pd f ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:31:09 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Bob, Congratulations on your acquirintg a Model IV. It is a great airplane. The original factory tanks were not fuel proof. Kreem is a tank liner that the factory chose to seal the inside of the tanks. It is a good product if used according to the directions. Many early tanks came pre Kreemed from the factory. Yours might be Kreemed. You can tell by looking in the filler neck and if there is a thin whitish coating - it yellows a bit eith age, the tank has been Kreemed. Regarding the windsheild, the material is polycarbonate and it comes under many brand names. Lexan is one. There is also an acrylic windsheld sold as an aftermarket product. They are more difficult to install and cost and weigh a lot more. If you decide to replace the windsheld, remove it by drilling out the rivets or removing the screws and use it as a pattern for cutting and drilling the new material. It is a fairly easy project. Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Second Build Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Starting Right Wing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Rivard" Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:57 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel >I recently acquired a KitFox 4 classic.What is creamed tanks? Is their a >problem I should be aware of? > My windshield will need replacing in the near future. Is this something I > can fabricate out of Lexon or must it be factory formed. > > BOB ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:25 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Torquing prop bolts From: "carlisle" Tom...I'm not sure what you mean by 'prop circle'. The bolts that attach the prop hub to the flange ARE threaded, there are 6 of them, and there are 6 studs that are also threaded into the prop flange and fit into holes in the back of the hub to relieve torsional loads on the prop. In addition, there are 2 'pinching' bolts for each of the 3 blades that squeeze the hub onto the molded neoprene blade roots. They do not pass through to the flange on the transmission. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268991#268991 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:12 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Torquing prop bolts From: "Tom Jones" > Tom...I'm not sure what you mean by 'prop circle'. The bolts that attach the prop hub to the flange ARE threaded, there are 6 of them, and there are 6 studs that are also threaded into the prop flange and fit into holes in the back of the hub to relieve torsional loads on the prop. In addition, there are 2 'pinching' bolts for each of the 3 blades that squeeze the hub onto the molded neoprene blade roots. They do not pass through to the flange on the transmission. > > Chris My original post was to alert you incase you had a prop that uses 8mm bolts into the threaded 8mm holes so you could be sure someone had not put 5/16 bolts in. If it is a Type-B drive: The prop flange has 1/4 inch and 8mm holes arranged on a 75mm circle. On older Rotax prop flanges the 1/4 inch are threaded to 1/4-28. On newer flanges the 1/4 inch holes have no threads and you use lock nuts on the prop bolts. On both old and new types the 8mm holes are threaded and those are the holes the 8mm studs are threaded into. If it is a Type-C drive: There are two different diameter bolt circles. A 75mm bolt circle (same as the Tyle-b drives) and a larger 100mm bolt circle. the 100mm bolt circle is always 8mm and untapped. If a prop is designed for the larger circle it is attached with 8mm bolts. If your GSC is the same as the one I used all the bolts are 1/4 inch and the 6 8mm studs in the threaded 8mm holes. Some use a drilled head bolt and safety wire and some installations use lock nuts on the bolt. Wow, I hope I didn't confuse yoy with all this but I think from what you say in your last post your installation is correct. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268997#268997 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:54 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Torquing prop bolts From: "carlisle" Tom...Wow, very complicated indeed. But thanks for the explanation. I had no idea there were so many variants. Mine's a B gearbox. The 6 through bolts that attach the prop are special high grade bolts supplied by Skystar, way back when I built the plane. They have about 150 hrs on them and my A&P mechanic friends say they're in good shape so I don't need to replace them. I'm not exactly sure their diameter or thread pitch and can't remember the markings on the head. Interestingly, when I had the prop overhauled by GSC, I asked for new bolts anyway and they said that they recommend standard AN hardware for mounting now. Anyway, I have another question. Does anyone use threadlock? Not the strongest kind (red I think), but just something to make the bolt a little more secure. Is thread lock a no-no in aviation applications? Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269004#269004 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.