Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:09 AM - Re: Rotax 582 thermostat (dave)
2. 03:30 AM - Rotax 582 thermostat (fox5flyer)
3. 07:22 AM - Re: Fuel pressure sensor (Tucsonchris)
4. 07:41 AM - Re: Fuel pressure sensor (Roger Lee)
5. 07:44 AM - Re: Rotax 582 thermostat (akflyer)
6. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure (Rueb, Duane)
7. 08:44 AM - Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Mark Napier (napierm))
8. 09:20 AM - Leaky Header tank (DanM)
9. 10:12 AM - Re: Leaky Header tank (Guy Buchanan)
10. 10:24 AM - Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure (FlyboyTR)
11. 11:16 AM - Re: Window Installation (Cwehner)
12. 11:16 AM - Re: Leaky Header tank (Patrick Reilly)
13. 11:33 AM - Re: Leaky Header tank (DanM)
14. 12:07 PM - Re: Leaky Header tank (jdmcbean)
15. 01:22 PM - Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (FlyboyTR)
16. 01:28 PM - lexan or plexaglass,what size 060 (Lowell Fitt)
17. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: 582 Ignition (Marco Menezes)
18. 02:09 PM - Re: Leaky Header tank (Marco Menezes)
19. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Rueb, Duane)
20. 02:35 PM - Re: Leaky Header tank (DanM)
21. 04:05 PM - Re: Re: Leaky Header tank (Patrick Reilly)
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 582 thermostat |
Off course you can read the internet or just ask for a professional opinion.
Dave
What I tried to say to Gary (not clear enough I guess) is that the thermostats
function in the Rotax is different than that of your car.
In a automotive engine, the thermostat is used to regulate the operating temperature
in the engine. They are set at a high temp and open only when the engine
gets to operating temperature. The thermostat will open and close regulating
the temperature.
In the Rotax it is the radiator and air ducting that is supposed to control the
operating temperature of the engine.
The thermostat's only function should be to allow a quicker warm up by blocking
the coolant flow. Once the coolant temps are above 140 degrees ( still not at
operating temps though ) the thermostat opens and stays open for the entire time
of the engine runs.
just my two cents
Bob Robertson
Light Engine Services Ltd.
Rotax Service Center
Salmon Arm, B.C.
Phone: 250-832-8786 (tech support)
Phone: 866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE Order line)
www.rtx-av-engines.ca
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269618#269618
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| Subject: | Rotax 582 thermostat |
I put 400 hours on my gray head with that Tstat. Worked for me. If I
recall correctly it required drilling the weep holes. It was 160F. I don't
know about the blue head though.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
>
> At 05:22 PM 10/26/2009, you wrote:
>>NAPA Part # is 18-3670
>
> Deke,
> Check out
> http://www.airtalk.org/help-needed-582-overheating-vt50456.html. Is this
> thread pertinent? I also wondered whether anyone on the list had success
> using the 160F aftermarket thermostat. It makes more sense than the 135F
> Rotax sells.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pressure sensor |
I would like to see those pictures as well....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269646#269646
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pressure sensor |
Hi Chris,
If you live in Tucson why don't you come out to Ryan Airfield some day and I'll
show you different spots and the pros and cons of each. My number is listed
below. This is a really easy install.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269647#269647
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 582 thermostat |
I have that Tstat in 4 different engines around here, with no issues. Summer temps
run 150-175 winter temps 140 or so.
Dave, your not the only one that flys behind a 582, many other also have PERSONAL
experience. While you are a rotax "dealer" you are not the worlds leading
authority on all things rotax or kitfox. While you intentions may be good, you
come across more as a P3ck3r head than a good resource for info. (yeah I know
I can be the same way but I have tried to tone it down a bit... mine is in humor,
your seems to be in arrogance.
These planes and engines are "experimental" and as such, we dont have to use only
manufacture overpriced parts. That is the beauty of these planes. If I can
save 100 bucks on a Tstat, that is 100 I can put into the tank and get more
enjoyment out of my plane.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
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| Subject: | Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure |
Maxwell:
What is the symptom or mode of failure of this coupling?
Duane, Kitfox Safari 240
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of W Duke
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure
It uses the same coupler but I hope the lighter weight and lower amperage a
lternator will be less likely to fry it. In my research I have found that
there is an older style coupler that was used in the o200 for years. It wi
ll work but... If it were to fail or the alternator seized there are poten
tially bits of metal in the engine case. Therefore the "wisdom" is if/when
the elastomer fails-no bits of metal. The cost to buy the older style coup
ler was similar to a rebuild of the elastomeric one so that is what I did.
I changed alternators because: I believe it can be removed without pullin
g the engine and it is over 6 pounds lighter. Added benefit that I did not
realize is that the nut on the back can be used to check the torque slippa
ge of the coupler per the service bulletin for 500 hr checks. Although my
first one did not quite make it to 500 hrs.
Maxwell Duke
S6/TD/IO240
Dublin, GA
--- On Mon, 10/26/09, FlyboyTR <flyboytr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: FlyboyTR <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure
//us.mc520.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=flyboytr@bellsouth.net>>
Maxwell,
Did you change to the lighter weight alternator because of the failed coupl
ing? What type of coupling does the new alternator use?
I found the thread I started when my coupler failed in Nov 06. http://foru
ms.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77593 Now...three years later...here we
go again. If a new style alternator would provide an improvement in the c
oupling...I would certainly be interested in changing to a different altern
ator.
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewf="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kit
fox-List" target=_blank>http:/sp; --> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewt
opic.php?p=269461#269461>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! |
Hey Travis,
The Rotax part number is 414-3636. The shape of the thing has changed
since I bought it last but I suppose the function is the same.
http://store.leadingedgeairfoils.com/index.php?cPath=548_436_447
The gasket around the tank is a Mercedes Benz fuel cap gasket #
140-471-00-79 seal ring. It should be somewhat pliable.
I'm changing my fuel system over to the current KF one for the KF IV
fuse I'm working on now. I did use a pump to establish flow though my
filter but the problem was the location the header tank. At takeoff it
wasn't "downhill" from the wing tanks.
The fuel management for my KF III was "interesting". It had a metal
header tank mounted behind the instrument panel at the fire-wall. The
vent line from the header had a large diameter, short length Tygon tube
that ran just over the glare shield with a floating red ball in it to
improve visibility and then a smaller 5/16" diameter hose ran up to vent
into the right tank. The 5/16" diameter wing tank fuel lines went over
to two over-head fuel cutoff valves and then teed together. Then
through a filter and down a line under the left door that fed a fuel
pump up under the panel. The fuel pump had a bypass one-way valve
around it and both fed into the header tank. Finally there was a fuel
cutoff valve from the header tank that fed a fire-wall forward mounted
gascolator.
So what you did was select a tank and turn on the pump. It would suck
fuel through the tee and filter and push into the header and from there
back up into the right tank through the header vent line. In level
flight the fuel would flow normally w/o the pump. The red ball would
witness the fuel in the vent line. I used the left tank for range only.
As it got low I would turn on the pump, select the left tank only and
put the rest of the fuel into the right tank through the vent line and
use a little left rudder to get the last of it. The right tank only is
selected for take-off and landing and the pump is on. This works well
since I always slip in using right rudder. I rarely if ever run with
both tanks selected.
The down side it that I did need that pump. I took off a few times and
forgot to turn it on. Then I would look at that empty vent line right
in front of me and practically break my finger on the switch turning the
pump on.
It sounds complicated and it was but I got used to it. The system was
completely reliable as long as the human element worked right.
Modifying the fuel system is considered a major change so I flew it "as
is". Add to that the HACMan leaning adjustment that I fiddled with
occasionally to keep the EGT's at around 1100. And the 6 gallons per
hour it took for the 582 to push the KF III to ~87mph.
So I'm looking forward to flying the HKS with the simpler set up and
much lower fuel burn even if it is no faster.
Cheers,
Mark Napier
-------------------------------------------------------------
Time: 01:31:27 PM PST US Subject: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! From:
"FlyboyTR" <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
Mark,
What is the part number on the fuel filter. What is the element
made of?
I don't think my fuel cap gaskets are leaking. I can blow through
the vent and
don't hear air escaping. However...the gaskets are fairly
hard..but appear to
fit tight. Thanks!
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269545#269545
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Napier (napierm)
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: Fuel Flow Problems, Again!
Hey Travis,
On advice from Tom Olenik I run the Rotax brand fuel filters. They are
big white plastic things. They are very high flow/low head loss and
won't block due to water.
If the filters/hoses are OK and the vent line has no obstruction then I
would check your tank caps. The gaskets are not hard and make a good
seal?
I can't think of anything else. If you make it a fly-in around Atlanta
please let me know; I would like to see your bird.
Good luck,
Mark Napier
Time: 05:55:37 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
From: "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
We just returned from an 800 mile trip to our favorite flying
destination, High
Valley Resort in north GA. We developed a fuel flow problem while
enroute.
A little history. Two years ago I had a fuel flow problem (actually on
the same
trip!) that was caused by my new paper filters (located between the wing
tanks
and the header tank) air locking and not allowing fuel to flow. We
completed
the trip using just one tank. After returning home, I discovered that
if I
blew up through the fuel line, causing the filter to fill with air, it
would
not gravity flow! After either sucking on the line ( or blowing on the
gas cap
vent tube) to force the fuel to flow, it would flow without restriction.
This
was repeated numerous times, on both tanks with the exact same results!
The
filters had been replaced just prior to this event. This was also
tested with
new filters with the same results. After that, I returned to using the
filters
with the glass sight tubes.
OKpresent day... I filled both tanks to the brim prior to our 400 mile,
one way,
flight. After about 45 minutes Kathy noticed there was no fuel in the
header
tank vent line. The right tank level was low and the left one was full
(could
not see the fuel levelabove the sight gauge). We checked and both fuel
valves
were on and we cycled them several times. I reduced power to the engine
and set it up lean of peak to reduce the fuel flow. Shortly, fuel
appeared in
the vent tube (yes that was a relief!). Fortunately we were at 9,500,
talking
the Atlanta Center and had an airport with easy gliding distance (which
also
provided some peace of mind).
After going back to full cruise power, the fuel level in the vent line
started
dropping. We turned the working tank off, pinched the vent line so it
would force,
hopefully, the fuel in the right tank to be sucked. After a few
seconds,
the left tank filter (which was filed with air) starting showing some
fuel movement
and slowly filled about way. I kept the vent line pinched for about
a minute. Fuel flow was established on the left tank, but still not
enough to
fill the vent line. I turned the right tank back on and the vent line
filled.
I closed it again and then slowly opened it to allow partial flow and
kept
the fuel level in the vent line visible for about 30 minutes. After
several gallons
of fuel was pulled from the left tank, I opened the right valve
completely
and the vent tube filled. After that fuel flowed from both tanks and
was
not a problem.
Heading Home We stopped for fuel while heading home. This time the
same thing
happened, except the tanks were reversed! Right tank would not flow.
We did
the same thingpinching off the vent line and forcing the system to suck
from
the non-flowing tank. Again, this was met with success.
I am at a complete loss! The vent lines on the gas caps are open
(checked with
each fill-up and also with a pipe cleaner, etc). All my flexible fuel
lines
are 3/8 marine grade lines (vent line is clear Tygon). No lines are
pinched.
Once flowing, they flow with no restriction. There are no loops, etc in
any
of the lines. I would appreciate any helpful information regarding this
problem!
AlsoOn the return leg home this afternoonMy charging system went out! I
just hope
it's not another alternator coupling/clutch thats gone bad!
Travis
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269410#269410
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| Subject: | Leaky Header tank |
I may need to change my header tank in my model iv because of a problem leak at
the bottom fitting bushing. I think the threads were tapped to deep or I may
have tightened to much. My question; is the rotational molded tank from Kitfox
the way to go or are there other options? Does the Kitfox tank have the brass
fitting molded in?
Thanks for your opinions in advance, this problem is holding up my first flight.
--------
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV , Ready for 1st Flight
Jabiru 2200 , 2.0 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269662#269662
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Header tank |
At 09:18 AM 10/27/2009, you wrote:
>My question; is the rotational molded tank from Kitfox the way to go
>or are there other options? Does the Kitfox tank have the brass
>fitting molded in?
Dan,
It's OK. There are bosses molded in for some of the
hardware, but not all, but there are no threads molded in. If you do
buy one, I recommend installing brass adapters for every fitting and
installing them with 2-part polysulfide sealant. That way you can
install and remove fittings without exercising the threads in the
polyethylene. Some look for larger header tanks. I think Murle
Williams still makes an aluminum one.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
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| Subject: | Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure |
Duane,
On my two failures, it showed up in flight and I got a low voltage warning. When
both of mine failed, it was like the alternator was no longer connected to
the engine. Inspection on the ground reveals that if you attempt to move the
alternators internal cooling fan, it would free-spin (thus the alternator is turning).
Moving the propeller does not turn the alternator.
The coupling is like a clutch. When it fails, it basically (or mechanically) separates
the alternator from the drive gear. It's function is to protect the
engine. If the alternator bearings, etc failed and it locked up, the coupling
will fail and thus will not stop the engine from running! Click on my old thread
(link is above). At the bottom I have several pictures that show the unit
and the failure is easy to spot.
Travis
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269669#269669
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| Subject: | Re: Window Installation |
We finished up the doors and windows recently and decided to go with rivnuts. worked
out extremely well. They worke great on the round tube. The round tube helps
from the stand point of once the rivnut conforms to the inside of the tube
the Can't ever turn out. heres some pics...
--------
Chris Wehner
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Kitfox IV, 912, Final push for completion!
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Header tank |
Dan, Have you tried using thread sealer, the gasoline resistant, red, hard
drying type. It will fill threads that are fairly large. It is hard to get
threads to seal in plastic tanks without over tightening. I have had good
luck with the above type of sealer on loose threads in the plastic
header tank you are talking about..
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, OL
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:18 AM, DanM <danm@powerdesignelectric.com> wrote:
>
> I may need to change my header tank in my model iv because of a problem
> leak at the bottom fitting bushing. I think the threads were tapped to deep
> or I may have tightened to much. My question; is the rotational molded tank
> from Kitfox the way to go or are there other options? Does the Kitfox tank
> have the brass fitting molded in?
>
>
> Thanks for your opinions in advance, this problem is holding up my first
> flight.
>
> --------
> Dan Mc Intyre
> Kitfox IV , Ready for 1st Flight
> Jabiru 2200 , 2.0 hours
> Sensenich 62x46
> N443DM
> do not archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269662#269662
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Header tank |
thanks Pat, I've tried the liquid yellow type, it worked on all fittings except
the bottom one. What's the Brand and product number for the stuff you are talking
about?
--------
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV , Ready for 1st Flight
Jabiru 2200 , 2.0 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269676#269676
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| Subject: | Leaky Header tank |
We also offer an aluminum header tank.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
Ph 208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Leaky Header tank
At 09:18 AM 10/27/2009, you wrote:
>My question; is the rotational molded tank from Kitfox the way to go or
>are there other options? Does the Kitfox tank have the brass fitting
>molded in?
Dan,
It's OK. There are bosses molded in for some of the hardware, but
not all, but there are no threads molded in. If you do buy one, I recommend
installing brass adapters for every fitting and installing them with 2-part
polysulfide sealant. That way you can install and remove fittings without
exercising the threads in the polyethylene. Some look for larger header
tanks. I think Murle Williams still makes an aluminum one.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! |
Mark,
Thanks for the info on the filters and fuel cap gasket. Even though testing hasn't
shown any leaks in my fuel caps, I plan to replace them. My local autoparts
dealer is trying to round up a couple for me.
The fuel system on your III sounds a little confusing at first glance. Many times
the human element can get us pilots in trouble...quickly!
Thanks again...
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269694#269694
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| Subject: | lexan or plexaglass,what size 060 |
Don't use Plexiglass for hand making a windshield. Lexan is one companies
trade name for polycarbonate. I have always used the .060 as it is easier
to form around the wing spar area. I have had a little movement of the
windshield at high speeds - near redline on the Model IV, but it suits my
purposed perfectly.
LowellLowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Second Build Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
Building up right wing
----- Original Message -----
From: <Cmflyboy12@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: F210 reading very HIGH
> wants the best for windsheild,lexan or plexaglass,what size 060
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 582 Ignition |
Then why two coils and four plugs? Might as well install a 583 "red head,"
no? Just asking. They're alot cheaper.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
--- On Sat, 10/24/09, Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Ignition
yes we have no bananas--- the system is not redundant-- malcolm
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A
(989)513-3022
--- On Sat, 10/24/09, Tom Jones <nahsikhs@elltel.net> wrote:
From: Tom Jones <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 Ignition
> Note: the kill switches are hooked up to the transistors in what they cal
l
> the transducers. ( I look at them as triggered secondary coils) The actua
l
> magneto coil powering the transducers is common to both sets of plugs. A
> short in that coil "LC" will definitely stop your engine. Check dia2 pg 7
2
I believe there are two separate coils that make up the transducer supply w
indings (LC-1 and LC-2).- Each one of these charges each Transducer (the
automobile looking coils on the outside with the spark plug wires).- each
transducer fires a plug in each cylinder.- Am I confused, I hope not or
the ignition is not truly redundant.[/b]
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Header tank |
Ditto Pat and Guy's observations Dan. I drilled my header for a float-type
low fuel sensor. Had to monkey with it for awhile until it stopped leaking.
I used a fuel proof thread sealer to seal brass bushing to the poly. Senso
r screws into the bushing. No leaks now.
-
At one point I almost gave up on the tank, went so far as to purchase a new
tank from Skystar. That one's in Pat's airplane now.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3: 1 w/clutch
--- On Tue, 10/27/09, Patrick Reilly <patreilly43@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Patrick Reilly <patreilly43@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Leaky Header tank
Dan, Have you tried using thread sealer, the gasoline resistant,-red, har
d drying type. It will fill threads that are fairly large. It is hard to ge
t threads to seal in plastic tanks without over tightening. I have had good
luck with the above-type of sealer on loose threads-in the plastic hea
der-tank you are talking about..
-
Pat-Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, OL
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:18 AM, DanM <danm@powerdesignelectric.com> wrote
:
I may need to change my header tank in my model iv because of a problem lea
k at the bottom fitting bushing. I think the threads were tapped to deep or
I may have tightened to much. -My question; is the rotational molded tan
k from Kitfox the way to go or are there other options? Does the Kitfox tan
k have the brass fitting molded in?
Thanks for your opinions in advance, this problem is holding up my first fl
ight.
--------
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV , Ready for 1st Flight
Jabiru 2200 , 2.0 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM
do not archive
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! |
Travis:
Your story is one that gives me the puckers. As we all know, fuel system problems
are the major malfunctions that cause accidents in light aircraft. I would
strongly recommend eliminating the filters that are up high in the system.
There is such a low head pressure up there that any resistance to flow is too
much. Filters do have a pressure drop across them and great care needs to be
used to place them in a system where that drop is not a problem. If they are
large this is not as important as the drop due to the material used. Large only
counts for a large capacity to store debris and for large fuel flows; not helping
much if any for initial conduction of flow.
I would leave the valves in place (since they are already there) and either not
put any more filters in the system than the one at the front of the engine,
or if you insist on another one, put it on the output side of your starting pump.
You will then have two filters in series, with the first one being out of
sight unless the seat is removed, which should tell something about the need for
it. While glass is tempting to think about, remember that the glass gas collators
that we used to have on our old factory jobs with carburetors were of
a very well thought out design, quite sturdy (the glass is tempered and thick)
and placed just in front of the carb where there is room for a nice big glass
thing. It had a very low pressure drop and due to its effective mesh size and
configuration, had a pretty high capacity for debris. We didn't drain it every
time we flew, but used it as an indicator of our fuel quality. It is also in
front of the fire wall and definitely not in the cabin, so we could look at
it when doing things up front. Our fuel system is rather large in the cabin,
which is not the greatest thing to have, but necessary due to the folding wing
idea. And since it is inside where we ride, I recommend making as few connections
in our fuel systems as necessary and inspecting that system regularly, even
more often than I do. (I will take note of this)
Some of that inspection occurs easily due to either the presence of or lack of
fumes. If no fumes, no leaks in the cabin, but we still need to look at the lines
that are covered with a sleeve to inspect the flex portion for impending
cracks or anything that doesn't look good about them, remembering how that we
have had the experience in cars that one day no leaks, the next day leaks and
when we found them we said wow, how did I not notice how bad this line was?!
Have you checked the finger strainers in the tanks? I am planning to do this
at this annual and then to rig a vacuum system to pull any debris off of them
and from anywhere else I may find it. Please remember to be careful when doing
this inspection to use a non-sparking light, and non sparking vacuum tools as
well. Of course, you will make sure that the tank is drained and have enough
vacuum hose to not have the vacuum motor close to the tanks. While I write
this to you, I am also talking to myself and everyone on the list so that I (we)
will think before doing something dumb and regrettable. Fuel is highly flammable.
It won't hurt all of us to review our fuel system and methods for working
on them, and if I have missed something important, please someone chime in.
I am also very aware of the fact that our kitfox factory has great experience
and advice and the proper parts to use on our aircraft and I do also recommend
supporting them by using their parts and wisdom.
Sorry to hear of still another alternator problem, and I would appreciate learning
what failed.
I hope to hear a report soon that speaks of a beautifully flowing fuel system in
your bird, and my intent is to inspire all of us to turn up the gain on our
fuel system awareness, please do not take this as a critical lecture. It is kind
of an open letter on our fuel system in our delightful little sky toys.
Sincerely, and warmly, Duane Rueb
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Napier (napierm)
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:42 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Fuel Flow Problems, Again!
Hey Travis,
The Rotax part number is 414-3636. The shape of the thing has changed
since I bought it last but I suppose the function is the same.
http://store.leadingedgeairfoils.com/index.php?cPath=548_436_447
The gasket around the tank is a Mercedes Benz fuel cap gasket #
140-471-00-79 seal ring. It should be somewhat pliable.
I'm changing my fuel system over to the current KF one for the KF IV
fuse I'm working on now. I did use a pump to establish flow though my
filter but the problem was the location the header tank. At takeoff it
wasn't "downhill" from the wing tanks.
The fuel management for my KF III was "interesting". It had a metal
header tank mounted behind the instrument panel at the fire-wall. The
vent line from the header had a large diameter, short length Tygon tube
that ran just over the glare shield with a floating red ball in it to
improve visibility and then a smaller 5/16" diameter hose ran up to vent
into the right tank. The 5/16" diameter wing tank fuel lines went over
to two over-head fuel cutoff valves and then teed together. Then
through a filter and down a line under the left door that fed a fuel
pump up under the panel. The fuel pump had a bypass one-way valve
around it and both fed into the header tank. Finally there was a fuel
cutoff valve from the header tank that fed a fire-wall forward mounted
gascolator.
So what you did was select a tank and turn on the pump. It would suck
fuel through the tee and filter and push into the header and from there
back up into the right tank through the header vent line. In level
flight the fuel would flow normally w/o the pump. The red ball would
witness the fuel in the vent line. I used the left tank for range only.
As it got low I would turn on the pump, select the left tank only and
put the rest of the fuel into the right tank through the vent line and
use a little left rudder to get the last of it. The right tank only is
selected for take-off and landing and the pump is on. This works well
since I always slip in using right rudder. I rarely if ever run with
both tanks selected.
The down side it that I did need that pump. I took off a few times and
forgot to turn it on. Then I would look at that empty vent line right
in front of me and practically break my finger on the switch turning the
pump on.
It sounds complicated and it was but I got used to it. The system was
completely reliable as long as the human element worked right.
Modifying the fuel system is considered a major change so I flew it "as
is". Add to that the HACMan leaning adjustment that I fiddled with
occasionally to keep the EGT's at around 1100. And the 6 gallons per
hour it took for the 582 to push the KF III to ~87mph.
So I'm looking forward to flying the HKS with the simpler set up and
much lower fuel burn even if it is no faster.
Cheers,
Mark Napier
-------------------------------------------------------------
Time: 01:31:27 PM PST US Subject: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! From:
"FlyboyTR" <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
Mark,
What is the part number on the fuel filter. What is the element
made of?
I don't think my fuel cap gaskets are leaking. I can blow through
the vent and
don't hear air escaping. However...the gaskets are fairly
hard..but appear to
fit tight. Thanks!
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269545#269545
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Napier (napierm)
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: Fuel Flow Problems, Again!
Hey Travis,
On advice from Tom Olenik I run the Rotax brand fuel filters. They are
big white plastic things. They are very high flow/low head loss and
won't block due to water.
If the filters/hoses are OK and the vent line has no obstruction then I
would check your tank caps. The gaskets are not hard and make a good
seal?
I can't think of anything else. If you make it a fly-in around Atlanta
please let me know; I would like to see your bird.
Good luck,
Mark Napier
Time: 05:55:37 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
From: "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
We just returned from an 800 mile trip to our favorite flying
destination, High
Valley Resort in north GA. We developed a fuel flow problem while
enroute.
A little history. Two years ago I had a fuel flow problem (actually on
the same
trip!) that was caused by my new paper filters (located between the wing
tanks
and the header tank) air locking and not allowing fuel to flow. We
completed
the trip using just one tank. After returning home, I discovered that
if I
blew up through the fuel line, causing the filter to fill with air, it
would
not gravity flow! After either sucking on the line ( or blowing on the
gas cap
vent tube) to force the fuel to flow, it would flow without restriction.
This
was repeated numerous times, on both tanks with the exact same results!
The
filters had been replaced just prior to this event. This was also
tested with
new filters with the same results. After that, I returned to using the
filters
with the glass sight tubes.
OKpresent day... I filled both tanks to the brim prior to our 400 mile,
one way,
flight. After about 45 minutes Kathy noticed there was no fuel in the
header
tank vent line. The right tank level was low and the left one was full
(could
not see the fuel levelabove the sight gauge). We checked and both fuel
valves
were on and we cycled them several times. I reduced power to the engine
and set it up lean of peak to reduce the fuel flow. Shortly, fuel
appeared in
the vent tube (yes that was a relief!). Fortunately we were at 9,500,
talking
the Atlanta Center and had an airport with easy gliding distance (which
also
provided some peace of mind).
After going back to full cruise power, the fuel level in the vent line
started
dropping. We turned the working tank off, pinched the vent line so it
would force,
hopefully, the fuel in the right tank to be sucked. After a few
seconds,
the left tank filter (which was filed with air) starting showing some
fuel movement
and slowly filled about way. I kept the vent line pinched for about
a minute. Fuel flow was established on the left tank, but still not
enough to
fill the vent line. I turned the right tank back on and the vent line
filled.
I closed it again and then slowly opened it to allow partial flow and
kept
the fuel level in the vent line visible for about 30 minutes. After
several gallons
of fuel was pulled from the left tank, I opened the right valve
completely
and the vent tube filled. After that fuel flowed from both tanks and
was
not a problem.
Heading Home We stopped for fuel while heading home. This time the
same thing
happened, except the tanks were reversed! Right tank would not flow.
We did
the same thingpinching off the vent line and forcing the system to suck
from
the non-flowing tank. Again, this was met with success.
I am at a complete loss! The vent lines on the gas caps are open
(checked with
each fill-up and also with a pipe cleaner, etc). All my flexible fuel
lines
are 3/8 marine grade lines (vent line is clear Tygon). No lines are
pinched.
Once flowing, they flow with no restriction. There are no loops, etc in
any
of the lines. I would appreciate any helpful information regarding this
problem!
AlsoOn the return leg home this afternoonMy charging system went out! I
just hope
it's not another alternator coupling/clutch thats gone bad!
Travis
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269410#269410
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Header tank |
Marco, what the brand and product number you used on the threads?
Thanks
--------
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV , Ready for 1st Flight
Jabiru 2200 , 2.0 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Header tank |
Dan, I will try to remember to look at the tube I have day after tomorrow at
the hanger. I need a new tube. I'm almost out. You can find it at any
automotive parts store or discount that sells automotive products. I think
it is a Permatex product.
Pat Reilly
Model 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 1:28 PM, DanM <danm@powerdesignelectric.com> wrote:
>
> thanks Pat, I've tried the liquid yellow type, it worked on all fittings
> except the bottom one. What's the Brand and product number for the stuff you
> are talking about?
>
> --------
> Dan Mc Intyre
> Kitfox IV , Ready for 1st Flight
> Jabiru 2200 , 2.0 hours
> Sensenich 62x46
> N443DM
> do not archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=269676#269676
>
>
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