Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:24 AM - Re: 2 pictures for you (Dave G)
2. 04:47 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5) (bjones@dmv.com)
3. 04:53 AM - Re: Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure (W Duke)
4. 05:14 AM - Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure (FlyboyTR)
5. 05:20 AM - Re: Fuel flow issues (Tom Jones)
6. 05:34 AM - Re: Newbie mistake - pulled the sump plug to drain my tanks (Lynn Matteson)
7. 06:12 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5) (Lynn Matteson)
8. 07:08 AM - Re: Newbie mistake - pulled the sump plug to drain my tanks (malpass)
9. 07:47 AM - Re: Ducatti Ignition Coil Needed (akflyer)
10. 08:12 AM - Re: Fuel flow stop after unport tank (bjones@dmv.com)
11. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure (Danny)
12. 08:22 AM - Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure (FlyboyTR)
13. 09:05 AM - Re: Newbie mistake - pulled the sump plug to drain my tanks (Guy Buchanan)
14. 09:10 AM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 11/01/09 (Ed Gray)
15. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure (Aerobatics@aol.com)
16. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: Ducatti Ignition Coil Needed (verizon)
17. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: Fuel flow stop after unport tank (Lynn Matteson)
18. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: Ducatti Ignition Coil Needed (verizon)
19. 12:17 PM - Re: Leaky Header tank (DanM)
20. 02:25 PM - Re: Fuel flow stop after unport tank (n85ae)
21. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: Fuel flow stop after unport tank (bjones@dmv.com)
22. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: Fuel flow stop after unport tank (bjones@dmv.com)
23. 04:05 PM - Re: Re: Leaky Header tank (Patrick Reilly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 2 pictures for you |
Congrats Ed, Can you post or send photos of the header tank installation
behind the seat and the plumbing please? I also use that tank in it's
original location and will want to move it to reflect current design.
Thanks.
Dave Goddard
KF IV 1050 / 582 / Warp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Gray" <egraylaw@swbell.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 10:44 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 2 pictures for you
>
> Kitfox folks, my Model II, rotax 532 with GSC fixed pitch prop is now
> flying, after a long dormant period. After being purchased from Denny in
> 1990 is sat in a barn in Arkansas for 18 years (the owner died) before I
> started construction in April of '08. It is all built per 1990
> instructions
> excepting the leading edge of wings. I used the McBean plastic extrusion
> and covered the upper surface 12 inches behind that with .016 aluminum
> from
> ACSpruce, eliminating the scalloped shape. It came with 2 six gallon
> alum.
> wing tanks which feed a round alum. header tank which I opted to place
> behind the copilot seat.
>
> It flies great, jumps off the runway in about 100 feet and climbs about
> 900
> fpm at 800 lbs. I put a GSC sport EFIS in the panel to handle all flight
> info without vacuum. It also gives me map, airport data, terrain and
> "highway in the sky" approaches. After two hours flying, I still can't
> digest all the info its giving me. It cruises at 75 mph at 5500 rpm and
> tops at 88 mph. I still need to add fairings to the jury struts and
> landing
> gear, and wheel pants would help too.
>
> Many thanks to the McBeans for advice and support, and many others on this
> list who have answered questions and offered tips. As one guy said,
> "plane
> is flying and now tinkering begins". I got some home made floats from
> Kasper
> in Canada, and plan on installing them sometime next spring. Then
> finishing
> his retract system which is actuated by compressed air. That promises to
> be
> fun. Anyone flying in DFW area let me know and we will fly together. My
> plane on the trailer lives in my garage. Maybe I will get to Sun n Fun
> next
> year. Next project, start saving so I can buy a New super sport from
> KITFOX
> LLC.
> PS, anyone have wheel pants for 18 inch wheels for sale?
>
> PPS My GSC prop is a 10 degree climb prop. The guy at GSC said I could
> ream the holes thru the roots a few degrees to make it ground adjustable.
> Has anyone done that, and how many degrees would I want to add to make a
> cruise prop?
>
> PPPS I found that I need to budget an extra half hour at the airport to
> answer all the questions from admirers--aint that fun?
>
> Ed Gray Dallas KII 582 GSC
>
> DSCN1082.JPG
> DSCN1086.JPG
>
> These pictures were sent with Picasa, from Google.
> Try it out here: http://picasa.google.com/
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5) |
This extended discussion on fuel flow issues has been just the sort of
thing I want out of the list sereve.
When I unport my right wing tank during a prolonged descent with low fuel
(model IV with large tanks) I watch fuel drain down out of the vent line
until the glass tube inline filter housing empties and does not refill
unless I crack the seal on it on the ground, then fuel instantly flows.
This has occurred several times even with new filter elements, clean
finger strainers in the tanks, new fuel lines throughout, and lots of
attention to straight fuel lines between wing tanks and header tank.
Rather than removing the in line filter elements, I may try placing some
larger openings in the elements. The idea being less resistance but
ability to monitor for crud.
Thanks to those who have posted comments and to the list serve manager for
making this (and other discussions possible.)
B J
N154K model IV
>
> Sorry...I missed that... No, I have baffles in the tank. Can't see that
> area of the tank. ...which I could! :?
>
> --------
> Travis Rayner
> Mobile, AL
> Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
> Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
> ADI-II Autopilot
> AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270320#270320
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure |
I don't have the receipt in front of me and I talked to several places but
I think it was www.qualityaircraftaccessories.com/-.- The price was jus
t under 500 if they rebuilt mine and returned.--Just over 500-if they
went ahead and sent one they already had.
Maxwell Duke
S6/TD/IO240
Dublin, GA
--- On Sat, 10/31/09, FlyboyTR <flyboytr@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: FlyboyTR <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure
Maxwell,
Where are you ordering your coupling?---The best price I've found so
far on a rebuilt unit is $525.
Travis
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240,- Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270260#270260
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure |
Quality Aircraft sent me a quote of $550. They get their rebuilt couplings from
Drake Air (same company I purchased my "failed unit" from, 254 hours ago).
I guess I will be ordering tomorrow. ...I feel so used! [Shocked] I am still
perplexed how such a simple part cost so much. The current NEW pricing from
TCM is $1,997.97.
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270560#270560
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel flow issues |
> I have many hours in flights of four or more - up to ten Kitfoxes, and can state
that lots of guys fly with one wing low.
Lowell. You are right about that. I often catch myself flying with one will low.
I don't have any rudder trim tab and must pay attention with my feet to fly
straight.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270562#270562
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie mistake - pulled the sump plug to drain my tanks |
I found it best to drain the tanks either by a custom-made electric
fuel pump, with a hose placed into the filler hole, and the other end
in a fuel can, or by the siphon method. In either case get the
remaining fuel down to at least the 5-gallon level or less. If you
don't, when the wings are folded, fuel will be forced up into the cap/
vent area, and will come out of the cap when folded. The other
reason for reducing the fuel in the wings is to reduce the weight
that will be brought to bear on the pivot bolt at the rear spar. If
you're planning on trailering your Kitfox, it is best to support the
wing from the front spar attachment hole down to the lift strut lower
attachment lug.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 805.4 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs--195 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 1, 2009, at 11:28 PM, cschmokel wrote:
>
> Hey everybody,
>
> Full disclosure .. I'm a newbie pilot, owner operator, mechanic,
> etc etc.
>
> I decided to try folding my Kitfox 5 taildragger wings back .. and
> was told by a former Kitfox 4 owner that draining most of the fuel
> is a good idea otherwise it will spill.
>
> OK, so I pulled the sump plug on the wing and started collecting
> gas. After about a minute, I noticed gas spurting out holes in the
> trailing edge of the wing. I replaced the sump plug and injected
> soapy water into the holes to dilute the gas and hopefully get rid
> of most of it. Apparently the sump plug is recessed too far and it
> ends up draining into the wing partially.
>
> - Was this the right thing to do?
> - What now? Should I just leave it as is and let whatever water/
> soap/gas mixture in the wings evaporate?
> - Do I really need to drain the tanks to fold the wings back?
>
> Thanks guys
>
> Carl
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270541#270541
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5) |
Could it be that your vent line has a uphill/downhill portion in it?
That could be one reason that the fuel won't fill the filters. What I
*think* is happening is this: You run the header tank low by using
fuel from it instead of the tanks when you unport the wing tanks in
your descent. Then with the plane at ground attitude, fuel tries to
come down the fuel lines through the filters and into the header
tank. Some does (maybe), but apparently not all unless you "crack the
seal". I believe that when the fuel tries to flow into the header
tank it is trying to overcome air trapped inside the header
tank....trapped because of fuel that is trapped in the uphill/
downhill vent line, and can't be pushed uphill by the downflowing
fuel in the fuel lines. I've had the same thing happen with my
plane.....watching the vent line empty during the descent (and of
course the fuel line is emptying at the same time....and I've been
lucky enough to tip the plane to an attitude that allows for a "mid-
air re-fueling" if you will. But I was very careful to make certain
of there being NO uphill/downhill sections in my vent line.
It would seem to me that this scenario that I just suggested would
require just a certain amount of fuel trying to come down the fuel
lines *versus* a certain amount of fuel trapped in the uphill/
downhill vent line, or a certain amount of volume of lines for this
to happen.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 805.4 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs--195 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 2, 2009, at 7:38 AM, bjones@dmv.com wrote:
>
> This extended discussion on fuel flow issues has been just the sort of
> thing I want out of the list sereve.
>
> When I unport my right wing tank during a prolonged descent with
> low fuel
> (model IV with large tanks) I watch fuel drain down out of the vent
> line
> until the glass tube inline filter housing empties and does not refill
> unless I crack the seal on it on the ground, then fuel instantly
> flows.
>
> This has occurred several times even with new filter elements, clean
> finger strainers in the tanks, new fuel lines throughout, and lots of
> attention to straight fuel lines between wing tanks and header tank.
>
> Rather than removing the in line filter elements, I may try placing
> some
> larger openings in the elements. The idea being less resistance but
> ability to monitor for crud.
>
> Thanks to those who have posted comments and to the list serve
> manager for
> making this (and other discussions possible.)
>
> B J
> N154K model IV
>
>
>> <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
>>
>> Sorry...I missed that... No, I have baffles in the tank. Can't
>> see that
>> area of the tank. ...which I could! :?
>>
>> --------
>> Travis Rayner
>> Mobile, AL
>> Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
>> Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
>> ADI-II Autopilot
>> AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270320#270320
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie mistake - pulled the sump plug to drain my tanks |
A mechanical siphon is the best way and remove only what the siphon will allow.
No chance of electrical sparks with a drill.
There is a great device at Northern Tools which is a clear flex line that is a
bout 3/4" in diameter, with an interesting siphon ball in the end. Just insert
and shake about 3 times and wallah!, here comes the fuel. Its almost as fun
as flying the plane. (not really). I can then spent time getting the plane ready
to trailer. You don't need to remove all the fuel unless you have a reason
for doing so. I added about 4 more feet of tubing to run over to my gas container
on the trailer.
The drain line is under 10 bucks.
--------
kitfox III w/ 582 greyhead
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270580#270580
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Ducatti Ignition Coil Needed |
swap the coils you have, and see if the issue follows the coils. Hopefully it
does and this is the cheap fix! Just swap the plugs coming out of the engine
and it will swap coils.
As the stator is redundant, you should have a hot spark on one front, one rear
plug if there is an issue with the stator. To loose both front plugs, then you
would have to loose the same coils on the stator. Not a very likely event.
Did you try to turn the engine over with the plugs out and not grounded?
Can you get a picture of the melted wires? I am assuming the heat came from the
exhaust and not from electrical heat. If there was enough resistance in the
wires to cause them to overheat and melt, you have bigger issues.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270584#270584
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel flow stop after unport tank |
Lynn,
Thanks for the suggestion.
Once on the ground, I can see the entire vent line run in my application.
There is no fuel trapped in it in low spots and no low spots to hold fuel.
So for fuel not to flow when I cover the fuel tank pickup with gas Almost
seems to defy laws of physics as I understand them.
I susspect low head pressure and marginal resistance from the inline
filter element that others have alluded to is at play.
The left wing tank feeds faster so I generally put more gas in it prior to
departure, consequently the left tank may not have unported in the
descents. I am tempted to try clear fuel lines on all runs from wing
tanks to header tank to see if fuel is caught in pockets on the feed lines
and to see if fuel is still being drawn from the left wing tank.
A couple of times when I have unported the right tank and stopped fuel
flow thru that inline filter, I have climbed to altitude over my local
airport (5,000' long) to see if I run the header tank dry while I still
have fuel in both wings or whether fuel will start to flow again when the
header tank gets low enough but due to heavy traffic with jet ops mixed in
and being a bit nervous about it, I have not given this an nadequate
trial.
BJ
N154K model IV
Rotax 912
about 600 hours
>
> Could it be that your vent line has a uphill/downhill portion in it?
> That could be one reason that the fuel won't fill the filters. What I
> *think* is happening is this: You run the header tank low by using
> fuel from it instead of the tanks when you unport the wing tanks in
> your descent. Then with the plane at ground attitude, fuel tries to
> come down the fuel lines through the filters and into the header
> tank. Some does (maybe), but apparently not all unless you "crack the
> seal". I believe that when the fuel tries to flow into the header
> tank it is trying to overcome air trapped inside the header
> tank....trapped because of fuel that is trapped in the uphill/
> downhill vent line, and can't be pushed uphill by the downflowing
> fuel in the fuel lines. I've had the same thing happen with my
> plane.....watching the vent line empty during the descent (and of
> course the fuel line is emptying at the same time....and I've been
> lucky enough to tip the plane to an attitude that allows for a "mid-
> air re-fueling" if you will. But I was very careful to make certain
> of there being NO uphill/downhill sections in my vent line.
>
> It would seem to me that this scenario that I just suggested would
> require just a certain amount of fuel trying to come down the fuel
> lines *versus* a certain amount of fuel trapped in the uphill/
> downhill vent line, or a certain amount of volume of lines for this
> to happen.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 805.4 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs--195 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
>
>
> On Nov 2, 2009, at 7:38 AM, bjones@dmv.com wrote:
>
>>
>> This extended discussion on fuel flow issues has been just the sort of
>> thing I want out of the list sereve.
>>
>> When I unport my right wing tank during a prolonged descent with
>> low fuel
>> (model IV with large tanks) I watch fuel drain down out of the vent
>> line
>> until the glass tube inline filter housing empties and does not refill
>> unless I crack the seal on it on the ground, then fuel instantly
>> flows.
>>
>> This has occurred several times even with new filter elements, clean
>> finger strainers in the tanks, new fuel lines throughout, and lots of
>> attention to straight fuel lines between wing tanks and header tank.
>>
>> Rather than removing the in line filter elements, I may try placing
>> some
>> larger openings in the elements. The idea being less resistance but
>> ability to monitor for crud.
>>
>> Thanks to those who have posted comments and to the list serve
>> manager for
>> making this (and other discussions possible.)
>>
>> B J
>> N154K model IV
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>> Sorry...I missed that... No, I have baffles in the tank. Can't
>>> see that
>>> area of the tank. ...which I could! :?
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Travis Rayner
>>> Mobile, AL
>>> Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
>>> Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
>>> ADI-II Autopilot
>>> AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270320#270320
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure |
I bought the rebuilt one I changed out in N24ZM from Drakes. Nice folks.
I remember being shocked at the then $600 cost until they told me what a
new one went for. Seeing as the one in N24ZM didn't make the 500 hr inspe
ction I did talk to TCM about warranty. The reply I got was that the failu
re was considered "normal". After a hung up the phone it was a few days be
fore the pain wore off and I could sit again.
Danny Melnik
F1 N14ZM
Rocket Factory
Melbourne, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: FlyboyTR <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:11 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure
Quality Aircraft sent me a quote of $550. They get their rebuilt coupling
s from
rake Air (same company I purchased my "failed unit" from, 254 hours ago).
I
uess I will be ordering tomorrow. ...I feel so used! [Shocked] I am st
ill
erplexed how such a simple part cost so much. The current NEW pricing fro
m TCM
s $1,997.97.
--------
ravis Rayner
obile, AL
kystar Vixen, N-789DF
ontinental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
DI-II Autopilot
nyWhereMap Navigation with weather
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270560#270560
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure |
I decided to go ahead and order today. Purchased from aeroinstock.com for $525.
Did you order a new alternator and starter gasket? I found that removing the
starter made it easier to remove and install the alternator. If I remember
correctly...there is one of the nuts that is almost impossible to get a wrench
on...never did torque that one! :D
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270596#270596
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie mistake - pulled the sump plug to drain my tanks |
At 08:28 PM 11/1/2009, you wrote:
>Was this the right thing to do?
Nope. Kind of hard in the wing internals.
>- What now? Should I just leave it as is and let whatever
>water/soap/gas mixture in the wings evaporate?
Can you pull the wing tips? (Plug for all you builders: make sure you
can remove the wing tips.) If not, can you get liquid into the wing
from the inboard end? I'd give it a good wash with detergent.
>- Do I really need to drain the tanks to fold the wings back?
It depends. The only thing you want to ensure is that you don't blow
the tanks by sealing them. First you will be replacing the existing
caps with non vented ones available from most auto supply stores.
(They're ugly, but hey, you're not going to fly with them.) This way,
when you fold, you won't have fuel coming out the vents. Next you
fold the wings. Finally, you need to have some kind of vent for the tanks.
* If this is a temporary situation, pull the upper sight tube
off it's nipple. The tank is now vented to atmosphere.
* If this is a permanent installation, install a small fuel
valve near the upper sight tube nipple. Open it when folded for vent,
close it for flight.
* Open the fuel system downstream and run a tube to a bucket
above the tanks so that as the tank pressure changes, any fuel pushed
out is captured.
Obviously for one-time folding it's a lot easier to drain the fuel.
What you need to drain the fuel is a decent drain port that makes it
easy to drain the fuel without filling your wing. I like the Curtis
quick drains from Aircraft Spruce.
(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/curtisquickdv2.php)
You can attach the optional hose to direct the flow anywhere you
want. Obviously it takes a long time to drain a tank, so it's not
something you want to do every flight.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
Message 14
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| Subject: | RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 11/01/09 |
Chris, thanks for the compliment! As to leading edge, you could easily
install the McBean extrusion with epoxy then cover it with an 8 inch strip
of fabric and paint to match your wing. I made a hinge of masking tape,
applied the glue and pivoted the extrusion into place and taped to down till
glue sets--simple procedure. As to radiator, I used the McBean air scoop
and engine runs at 180 or below even stationary at 95 degrees ambient. In
flight it stays very cool, and I like the looks of the airscoop. Plus the
scoop adds some speed?
I am happy to hear that you got so much improvement by increasing your GSC
prop pitch!
Regarding trailering with gas in the tanks, I try not to trailer it with
more than 1/2 tank, and I use a syphon which seems quicker than draining at
gascolater. I bent a 3/8 aluminum tube into a ? shape so the end reaches
the back corner of the wing tank and syphons nearly all the gas.
Well, got to go fly now, got to get that 40 hours done! DFW fliers, get in
touch!
Ed Gray Dallas KII 582 do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kitfox-List
Digest Server
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 2:00 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 11/01/09
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete Kitfox-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Kitfox-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
09-11-01&Archive=Kitfox
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
2009-11-01&Archive=Kitfox
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Kitfox-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Sun 11/01/09: 19
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:18 AM - PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During
November! (Matt Dralle)
1. 03:36 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
(Lynn Matteson)
2. 05:46 AM - Re: PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During
November! (Frank Miles)
3. 05:47 AM - Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
(FlyboyTR)
4. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
(Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
5. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
(fox5flyer)
6. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
(Lynn Matteson)
7. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
(Lynn Matteson)
8. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
(Guy Buchanan)
9. 10:50 AM - Ducatti 582 Ignition needed (jareds)
10. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
(jareds@verizon.net)
11. 12:44 PM - Ducatti Ignition Coil Needed (jareds@verizon.net)
12. 01:58 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
(Dwight Purdy)
13. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
(Lynn Matteson)
14. 06:38 PM - Fuel flow issues (Lowell FITT)
15. 06:59 PM - 2 pictures for you (Ed Gray)
16. 07:49 PM - Re: 2 pictures for you (carlisle)
17. 08:32 PM - Newbie mistake - pulled the sump plug to drain my tanks
(cschmokel)
18. 11:52 PM - RE Newbie mistake - pulled the sump plug to drain my
tanks (Michel Verheughe)
________________________________ Message 0
_____________________________________
Time: 12:18:14 AM PST US
From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During
November!
Dear Listers,
Each November I hold a PBS-like fund raiser to support the continued
operation and upgrade of the List services at Matronics. It's solely
through the Contributions of List members that these Matronics Lists are
possible. There is NO advertising to support the Lists. You might have
noticed the conspicuous lack of flashing banners and annoying pop-ups on the
Matronics Email List email messages and web site pages such as the Matronics
List Forums ( http://forums.matronics.com ), the List Wiki (
http://wiki.matronics.com), or other related pages such as the List Search
Engine ( http://www.matronics.com/search ), the List Browser (
http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse ), etc. This is because I believe in a
List experience that is completely about the sport we all enjoy - namely
Airplanes and not about annoying advertisements.
During the month of November I will be sending out List messages every
couple of
days reminding everyone that the Fund Raiser is underway. I ask for your
patience
and understanding during the Fund Raiser and throughout these regular
messages.
The Fund Raiser is only financial support mechanism I have to pay all
of the bills associated with running these lists. Your personal
Contribution
counts!
Once again, this year I've got a terrific line up of free gifts to go along
with
the various Contribution levels. Most all of these gifts have been provided
by some of the vary members and vendors that you'll find on Matronics Lists
and
have been either donated or provided at substantially discounted rates.
This year, these generous people include Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric
Connection (http://www.aeroelectric.com/), Andy Gold of the Builder's
Bookstore (http://www.buildersbooks.com/), and Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP
(http://www.homebuilthelp.com/).
These are extremely generous guys and I encourage you to visit their
respective
web sites. Each one offers a unique and very useful aviation-related
product
line. I would like publicly to thank Bob, Andy, and Jon for their generous
support
of the Lists again this year!!
You can make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods
this
year including using a credit card, PayPal, or by personal check. All three
methods
afford you the opportunity to select one of this year's free gifts with
a qualifying Contribution amount!!
To make your Contribution, please visit the secure site below:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous financial AND
moral
support over the years!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 03:36:14 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
I've read all your posts, and all of any mail that comes into my
email box....I don't go to the "site". The only thing problem that
this creates is when somebody doesn't include a snippet of what they
are replying to...like you did here. But this thread is current
enough that even my poor memory allows me to "connect the dots." The
other problem is when someone only gets the "digest" and includes 44
messages in their reply, like I bitched about last week. : )
I doubt that the filter element is your problem. I'm keeping all of
my filters, no matter how much certain engineers might (for me)
confuse the issue with talk of surface tension, etc., my system flows
fuel as long as there's fuel in the system to flow...nudge, nudge,
wink, wink. ; )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 804.3 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs--196 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Oct 31, 2009, at 11:58 PM, FlyboyTR wrote:
>
> Lynn,
> This problem happens, usually, when my tanks are more than 1/2 -
> 3/4 full. To my knowledge I've never "unported" the tank by
> descending at such an angle that the fuel moves away from the outlet.
>
> As so often happens on this forum, someone will reply to a post by
> starting a new post with the same title (as happened to this
> thread). If you haven't read my original post, please take a
> look. :D I tried to explain the details and history of this
> problem that comes and goes...I would prefer for it to go! [Laughing]
>
> Once I'm back in the air...should this happen again, I will remove
> the filter element but keep the glass filter housing in place for
> observation.
>
> Travis :)
>
> --------
> Travis Rayner
> Mobile, AL
> Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
> Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
> ADI-II Autopilot
> AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270317#270317
>
>
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 05:46:40 AM PST US
From: "Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser
During
November!
Please drop me from your list. Thank you.
Frank Miles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 12:14 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During
November!
Dear Listers,
Each November I hold a PBS-like fund raiser to support the continued
operation and upgrade of the List services at Matronics. It's solely
through the Contributions of List members that these Matronics Lists are
possible. There is NO advertising to support the Lists. You might have
noticed the conspicuous lack of flashing banners and annoying pop-ups on the
Matronics Email List email messages and web site pages such as the Matronics
List Forums ( http://forums.matronics.com ), the List Wiki (
http://wiki.matronics.com), or other related pages such as the List Search
Engine ( http://www.matronics.com/search ), the List Browser (
http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse ), etc. This is because I believe in a
List experience that is completely about the sport we all enjoy - namely
Airplanes and not about annoying advertisements.
During the month of November I will be sending out List messages every
couple of days reminding everyone that the Fund Raiser is underway. I ask
for your patience and understanding during the Fund Raiser and throughout
these regular messages. The Fund Raiser is only financial support mechanism
I have to pay all of the bills associated with running these lists. Your
personal Contribution counts!
Once again, this year I've got a terrific line up of free gifts to go along
with the various Contribution levels. Most all of these gifts have been
provided by some of the vary members and vendors that you'll find on
Matronics Lists and have been either donated or provided at substantially
discounted rates.
This year, these generous people include Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric
Connection (http://www.aeroelectric.com/), Andy Gold of the Builder's
Bookstore (http://www.buildersbooks.com/), and Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP
(http://www.homebuilthelp.com/).
These are extremely generous guys and I encourage you to visit their
respective web sites. Each one offers a unique and very useful
aviation-related product line. I would like publicly to thank Bob, Andy,
and Jon for their generous support of the Lists again this year!!
You can make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods
this year including using a credit card, PayPal, or by personal check. All
three methods afford you the opportunity to select one of this year's free
gifts with a qualifying Contribution amount!!
To make your Contribution, please visit the secure site below:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous financial AND
moral support over the years!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 05:47:56 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
From: "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
Lynn,
...you get to read a lot of email! [Shocked]
I really don't want to get rid of my filters either. We are still only
talking
about one filter between a wing tank and the header tank. Once the fuel is
in
the header tank it should then benefit from the "suction" of the mechanical
pump.
My last two hurdles are removing the wing tank outlet fitting to check the
finger
strainers and cutting the root rib on the wing so the fuel line doesn't have
to have a hump in it before descending down towards the header tank. Thanks
again for all your input...always appreciated!
Travis
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> I've read all your posts, and all of any mail that comes into my email
box....I
don't go to the "site".
>
> I doubt that the filter element is your problem. I'm keeping all of
> my filters, no matter how much certain engineers might (for me)
> confuse the issue with talk of surface tension, etc., my system flows
> fuel as long as there's fuel in the system to flow...nudge, nudge,
> wink, wink. ; )
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 804.3 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs--196 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 31, 2009, at 11:58 PM, FlyboyTR wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
:D
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270420#270420
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 07:12:59 AM PST US
From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <thesupe@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
When I first got my Avid MK IV=2C I put filters on both sides between the w
ing tanks and the header tank. All was fine for a while (about 10-15 hrs)
till one evening I took off from my strip and as I climbed out and got to 4
50'=2C the engine started to miss and spit. I ended up landing in a neighb
ors field with no dammage to me or the plane. What had happened I found ou
t the next day=2C was the filter on the tank I was using started to plug ju
st a bit and so the flow was reduced. The engine never did die=2C but woul
d not run up above about 4000 rpm. Durring the takeoff=2C it was turning u
p about 6200=2C and when the small header tank was emptied=2C things got "i
nteresting". I posted this account on the Avid list=2C and Steve Winder=2C
who ran the Avid factory for years said NEVER HAVE FILTERS BETWEEN THE WIN
G TANKS AND THE HEADER TANK. He used all capitol letters also! He said th
at it takes very little to stop or slow the gravity flow=2C and ofcourse th
at is what caused my problem. He also said=2C that the header tank works a
s a gascolator to filter the fuel so the filters between the tanks aren't n
eeded. I had a final filter between the header tank and the fuel pump=2C a
nd so to gaurd against that one plugging and putting me in the trees=2C I p
ut in a T in my fuel line and added a second filter alongside the first one
and then a T back into the fuel line with a small valve to stop the flow t
hrough that filter. When I'm taking off=2C I open that valve and then clos
e it after I get up to 750' or so. If the main filter ever starts to plug
while in flight=2C I will open the valve for the second filter and the fuel
will be able to flow through that one and I will stay out of the trees.
So far that has worked good for me and I still have potentialy three filter
s to stop any crud getting to the carb. The header tank=2C the inline filt
er=2C pluss the backup filter which will only be used if the first inline f
ilter plugs. To each his own=2C but this works for me. I have always used
the Fram paper filters and they have worked good for me.
Take care=2C Jim Chuk
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems=2C Again! (Vixen=2C Series-5
)
> From: flyboytr@bellsouth.net
> Date: Sun=2C 1 Nov 2009 05:43:45 -0800
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Lynn=2C
> ...you get to read a lot of email! [Shocked]
>
> I really don't want to get rid of my filters either. We are still only ta
lking about one filter between a wing tank and the header tank. Once the fu
el is in the header tank it should then benefit from the "suction" of the m
echanical pump.
>
> My last two hurdles are removing the wing tank outlet fitting to check th
e finger strainers and cutting the root rib on the wing so the fuel line do
esn't have to have a hump in it before descending down towards the header t
ank. Thanks again for all your input...always appreciated!
>
> Travis
>
>
> Lynn Matteson wrote:
> > I've read all your posts=2C and all of any mail that comes into my emai
l box....I don't go to the "site".
> >
> > I doubt that the filter element is your problem. I'm keeping all of
> > my filters=2C no matter how much certain engineers might (for me)
> > confuse the issue with talk of surface tension=2C etc.=2C my system flo
ws
> > fuel as long as there's fuel in the system to flow...nudge=2C nudge=2C
> > wink=2C wink. =3B )
> >
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 804.3 hrs
> > Countdown to 1000 hrs--196 to go
> > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > Rotec TBI-40 injection
> > Status: flying (and learning)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Oct 31=2C 2009=2C at 11:58 PM=2C FlyboyTR wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> :D
>
> --------
> Travis Rayner
> Mobile=2C AL
> Skystar Vixen=2C N-789DF
> Continental IO-240=2C Prince P-Tip Prop
> ADI-II Autopilot
> AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270420#270420
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========
==========
==========
==========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID
24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:112009
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 08:01:47 AM PST US
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
I know this thread has been going on forever and those who have wing tank
filters will probably keep them. Fuel flow is probably one of the most
important parts of our airplane so talking this to death can't hurt a thing.
Here's my take, for whatever it's worth.
Ideally, "IMO" the lines from the wing tanks to the header should be as
large as practicable...3/8 ID would be good. To keep the head pressure as
high as possible there should be no (unnecessary) restrictions between the
tanks and the header, meaning no filters, valves, unnecessary fittings, or
reducing fittings that restrict flow. After the header, the same applies,
however, it's obvious that one needs at minimum a shutoff valve and usually
a fuel pump of some sort. Since most fuel pumps are meant to push fuel, not
suck, it should be at the lowest point in the system, generally just after
the header and as close to it as practical. After the fuel pump things are
not so critical as most pumps can push fuel pressure and volume far beyond
what static flow can provide. Obviously, the 582s with diaphragm pumps
wouldn't be very practical to be placed at this point, but to continue.
There should be a shut off valve, generally on the console or wherever it's
located that is easy to reach, again, IMO, the next restriction should be
the filter. This should be a high flow filter and could be located on the
firewall and be the last line of defense before it goes to the carb/TB/etc.
Again, I stated "ideally" and is only my opinion. There are many other
methods that work and some that don't, but as I recall a study was done at
some point about forced landings and most were caused by fuel starvation.
Everything that is put into the system between the fuel tanks and the engine
is a restriction of some sort. Add them all up and it can be significant
and even though the system may be working it may be marginally close to
failure without one knowing it.
Personally, I don't feel the filters in the lines from the tanks to the
header are necessary at all. Between the finger strainers and the natural
settling action of the header, plus the fuel sump at the bottom of the
header, there is more than enough there to clean up the big stuff. The
final filter at the firewall will take care of anything that somehow reaches
that point.
I expect that some will take issue with this, and that is fine and I'd like
to hear it. Just be nice. :-)
Have a great day!
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
----- Original Message -----
From: "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 8:43 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
>
> Lynn,
> ...you get to read a lot of email! [Shocked]
>
> I really don't want to get rid of my filters either. We are still only
> talking about one filter between a wing tank and the header tank. Once
> the fuel is in the header tank it should then benefit from the "suction"
> of the mechanical pump.
>
> My last two hurdles are removing the wing tank outlet fitting to check the
> finger strainers and cutting the root rib on the wing so the fuel line
> doesn't have to have a hump in it before descending down towards the
> header tank. Thanks again for all your input...always appreciated!
>
> Travis
>
>
> Lynn Matteson wrote:
>> I've read all your posts, and all of any mail that comes into my email
>> box....I don't go to the "site".
>>
>> I doubt that the filter element is your problem. I'm keeping all of
>> my filters, no matter how much certain engineers might (for me)
>> confuse the issue with talk of surface tension, etc., my system flows
>> fuel as long as there's fuel in the system to flow...nudge, nudge,
>> wink, wink. ; )
>>
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 804.3 hrs
>> Countdown to 1000 hrs--196 to go
>> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> Rotec TBI-40 injection
>> Status: flying (and learning)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 31, 2009, at 11:58 PM, FlyboyTR wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
> :D
>
> --------
> Travis Rayner
> Mobile, AL
> Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
> Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
> ADI-II Autopilot
> AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270420#270420
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 08:46:38 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
The only problem I have....and this is just a shade-tree mechanics
view...is the paper filter. It is said that they will clog if water
gets to them. I can see the benefit of not having a filter in the
line to the header tank, as the header tank DOES work like a
gascolator, and as such will catch (and allow for the sampling of)
any crud that might get there. I put the filters in my down...to the
header...lines because I wanted to see any crud that just got into
those lines from airport A, or airport B, etc., or from my own 300-
gallon tank at home.
Like you said, to each his own, and future or current builders will
be able to choose for themselves what they think is right. And of
course, each DAR will have his/her own views on what they will allow.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 805.4 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs--195 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 1, 2009, at 10:06 AM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:
> When I first got my Avid MK IV, I put filters on both sides between
> the wing tanks and the header tank. All was fine for a while
> (about 10-15 hrs) till one evening I took off from my strip and as
> I climbed out and got to 450', the engine started to miss and
> spit. I ended up landing in a neighbors field with no dammage to
> me or the plane. What had happened I found out the next day, was
> the filter on the tank I was using started to plug just a bit and
> so the flow was reduced. The engine never did die, but would not
> run up above about 4000 rpm. Durring the takeoff, it was turning
> up about 6200, and when the small header tank was emptied, things
> got "interesting". I posted this account on the Avid list, and
> Steve Winder, who ran the Avid factory for years said NEVER HAVE
> FILTERS BETWEEN THE WING TANKS AND THE HEADER TANK. He used all
> capitol letters also! He said that it takes very little to stop or
> slow the gravity flow, and ofcourse that is what caused my
> problem. He also said, that the header tank works as a gascolator
> to filter the fuel so the filters between the tanks aren't needed.
> I had a final filter between the header tank and the fuel pump, and
> so to gaurd against that one plugging and putting me in the trees,
> I put in a T in my fuel line and added a second filter alongside
> the first one and then a T back into the fuel line with a small
> valve to stop the flow through that filter. When I'm taking off, I
> open that valve and then close it after I get up to 750' or so. If
> the main filter ever starts to plug while in flight, I will open
> the valve for the second filter and the fuel will be able to flow
> through that one and I will stay out of the trees. So far that has
> worked good for me and I still have potentialy three filters to
> stop any crud getting to the carb. The header tank, the inline
> filter, pluss the backup filter which will only be used if the
> first inline filter plugs. To each his own, but this works for
> me. I have always used the Fram paper filters and they have worked
> good for me.
> Take care, Jim Chuk
>
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen,
> Series-5)
> > From: flyboytr@bellsouth.net
> > Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 05:43:45 -0800
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > Lynn,
> > ...you get to read a lot of email! [Shocked]
> >
> > I really don't want to get rid of my filters either. We are still
> only talking about one filter between a wing tank and the header
> tank. Once the fuel is in the header tank it should then benefit
> from the "suction" of the mechanical pump.
> >
> > My last two hurdles are removing the wing tank outlet fitting to
> check the finger strainers and cutting the root rib on the wing so
> the fuel line doesn't have to have a hump in it before descending
> down towards the header tank. Thanks again for all your
> input...always appreciated!
> >
> > Travis
> >
> >
> > Lynn Matteson wrote:
> > > I've read all your posts, and all of any mail that comes into
> my email box....I don't go to the "site".
> > >
> > > I doubt that the filter element is your problem. I'm keeping
> all of
> > > my filters, no matter how much certain engineers might (for me)
> > > confuse the issue with talk of surface tension, etc., my system
> flows
> > > fuel as long as there's fuel in the system to flow...nudge, nudge,
> > > wink, wink. ; )
> > >
> > >
> > > Lynn Matteson
> > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 804.3 hrs
> > > Countdown to 1000 hrs--196 to go
> > > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > > Rotec TBI-40 injection
> > > Status: flying (and learning)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Oct 31, 2009, at 11:58 PM, FlyboyTR wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > :D
> >
> > --------
> > Travis Rayner
> > Mobile, AL
> > Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
> > Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
> > ADI-II Autopilot
> > AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270420#270420
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more._-
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ==========================================================
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 09:17:15 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
Probably more important than where a person decides to place the
filters, valves, etc., is the decision to do a flow test after all
the plumbing is done. That might reveal more than all the theory in
the world. If the flow test shows marginal flow, change something! If
it doesn't......
One of the discoveries that I made while changing to the TBI in place
of the Bing carb, was I hadn't realized how far up the "flow chart"
the carb/TBI was located. With my gravity flow ONLY system, if I have
to point the nose up very steeply with low fuel....like when the
header tank supply is the only fuel available....that fuel will not
make it up to the TBI/carb. You folks with high-mounted carbs are
almost certain candidates for a pumped system.
If in doubt about the flow of your particular system, lay some
masking paper on the side of the aircraft, and measure and plot where
the various parts of the fuel system lie, and where the lines run.
Draw these components onto the paper, then imagine the plane
climbing, diving, banking, etc., and see where the fuel goes and also
imagine a lower than normal fuel supply, and see where that leads you.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 805.4 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs--195 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 1, 2009, at 10:28 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> I know this thread has been going on forever and those who have
> wing tank filters will probably keep them. Fuel flow is probably
> one of the most important parts of our airplane so talking this to
> death can't hurt a thing. Here's my take, for whatever it's worth.
> Ideally, "IMO" the lines from the wing tanks to the header should
> be as large as practicable...3/8 ID would be good. To keep the
> head pressure as high as possible there should be no (unnecessary)
> restrictions between the tanks and the header, meaning no filters,
> valves, unnecessary fittings, or reducing fittings that restrict
> flow. After the header, the same applies, however, it's obvious
> that one needs at minimum a shutoff valve and usually a fuel pump
> of some sort. Since most fuel pumps are meant to push fuel, not
> suck, it should be at the lowest point in the system, generally
> just after the header and as close to it as practical. After the
> fuel pump things are not so critical as most pumps can push fuel
> pressure and volume far beyond what static flow can provide.
> Obviously, the 582s with diaphragm pumps wouldn't be very practical
> to be placed at this point, but to continue. There should be a shut
> off valve, generally on the console or wherever it's located that
> is easy to reach, again, IMO, the next restriction should be the
> filter. This should be a high flow filter and could be located on
> the firewall and be the last line of defense before it goes to the
> carb/TB/etc. Again, I stated "ideally" and is only my opinion.
> There are many other methods that work and some that don't, but as
> I recall a study was done at some point about forced landings and
> most were caused by fuel starvation. Everything that is put into
> the system between the fuel tanks and the engine is a restriction
> of some sort. Add them all up and it can be significant and even
> though the system may be working it may be marginally close to
> failure without one knowing it.
> Personally, I don't feel the filters in the lines from the tanks to
> the header are necessary at all. Between the finger strainers and
> the natural settling action of the header, plus the fuel sump at
> the bottom of the header, there is more than enough there to clean
> up the big stuff. The final filter at the firewall will take care
> of anything that somehow reaches that point.
> I expect that some will take issue with this, and that is fine and
> I'd like to hear it. Just be nice. :-)
> Have a great day!
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT
> "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
> Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
> -- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "FlyboyTR" <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 8:43 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 10:49:06 AM PST US
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
At 12:07 PM 10/31/2009, you wrote:
>I folded the wing to check the finger strainers. I was unable to
>remove the 90 fitting (see picture). To do do would mean I would
>have to cut the fabric in the bottom of the wing. Any
>suggestions? does this look like the KF setup?
Doncha jes hate it when someone doesn't think about
maintenance? The finger strainer, if there is one, is built into the
brass bushing that the elbow is screwed into. Yes, it unscrews from
the fiberglass, another maintenance nightmare that Kitfox didn't
think about. (Why would anyone ever need to look at a finger
strainer? Geee. I dunno.) Unfortunately you're right, you'd have to
cut the fabric to pull the elbow. The only maintenance alternative I
can see is to drain the tanks, pull the wings, flip them over, then
blow fluid through the fuel outlet to try to clear the finger
strainers. Then slosh the tanks with fluid to make sure any large
particulates get out the filler cap. Fun, huh?
The finger strainers are really course, say about .04". So
generally the only things that don't go through them are when the
Kreem sheets off, or when you drop your TCP additive cap gasket into
the tank. (Don't ask.) That means you probably never need to look at
them; only when you're having fuel flow problems. (Like NOW. Are we
having fun yet?)
Sorry for the bad news.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 10:50:39 AM PST US
From: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Ducatti 582 Ignition needed
Wierd thing going on. Both Rear plugs have hot spark but front plugs
have weak spark. Engine seems to try to run on one cylinder when i try
to start it. I know that each cylinders plugs are fired by each coil so
does this mean that one top or bottom side of each ignition module is bad?
There is some heat damage to the front ignition. I can see on the wires
where it may have gotten warm enough to melt wiring etc... but the rear
one looks fine.
Does someone have one or two ignition modules laying around that are new
or used but that are working?
Thanks.
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 12:35:37 PM PST US
From: jareds@verizon.net
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
I have not read most of the posts and you may have already gotten this info
but I will never get rid of my glass filters at the wing tanks.. VITAL in
flight to physically see the fuel flow and see whats maybe sitting in my
tanks. What I don't see unless I look very close is the little bits of
fiberglass but I keep filter elements handy and change very often.
As to the fuel flow.. Don Smythe cured my issues years ago when I was in
DC. He said "Always down hill" and even with a little bump in the hoses its
ok but the critical one is the vent line. And to me that's the biggest
obstical because its always in the way to making a neat cockpit but when I
am cruising along and my header tank fuel low light comes on I can always
look at my vent line and know its got a dip in it!
Hope that helps.
Jared
Nov 1, 2009 07:54:21 AM, kitfox-list@matronics.com wrote:
=========================================
Lynn,
...you get to read a lot of email! [Shocked]
I really don't want to get rid of my filters either. We are still only
talking
about one filter between a wing tank and the header tank. Once the fuel is
in
the header tank it should then benefit from the "suction" of the mechanical
pump.
My last two hurdles are removing the wing tank outlet fitting to check the
finger
strainers and cutting the root rib on the wing so the fuel line doesn't have
to have a hump in it before descending down towards the header tank. Thanks
again for all your input...always appreciated!
Travis
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> I've read all your posts, and all of any mail that comes into my email
box....I
don't go to the "site".
>
> I doubt that the filter element is your problem. I'm keeping all of
> my filters, no matter how much certain engineers might (for me)
> confuse the issue with talk of surface tension, etc., my system flows
> fuel as long as there's fuel in the system to flow...nudge, nudge,
> wink, wink. ; )
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 804.3 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs--196 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 31, 2009, at 11:58 PM, FlyboyTR wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
:D
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270420#270420
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 12:44:09 PM PST US
From: jareds@verizon.net
Subject: Kitfox-List: Ducatti Ignition Coil Needed
Wierd thing going on. Both Rear plugs have hot spark but front plugs have
weak
spark. Engine seems to try to run on one cylinder when i try to start it.
I know that each cylinders plugs are fired by each coil so does this mean
that
one top or bottom side of each ignition module is bad?
There is some heat damage to the front ignition. I can see on the wires
where
it may have gotten warm enough to melt wiring etc... but the rear one looks
fine.
Does someone have one or two ignition modules laying around that are new or
used
but that are working?
Thanks.
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 01:58:46 PM PST US
From: "Dwight Purdy" <dpurdy@comteck.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
I do not comment often but listen a lot.
On this subject of fuel filters will say that in my 32 years of flying I
have never seen a filter on a GA certified aircraft. That does not include
any of the newer fuel injected ones. I have had a paper filter for a short
time on my model II. While running premix and some ethanol in the fuel I was
forced to land off field. Once that paper gets oil soaked water will not
pass properly. Took the filter out and no problem.
Dwight Purdy
Model II
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
>
> The only problem I have....and this is just a shade-tree mechanics
> view...is the paper filter. It is said that they will clog if water gets
> to them. I can see the benefit of not having a filter in the line to the
> header tank, as the header tank DOES work like a gascolator, and as such
> will catch (and allow for the sampling of) any crud that might get there.
> I put the filters in my down...to the header...lines because I wanted to
> see any crud that just got into those lines from airport A, or airport B,
> etc., or from my own 300- gallon tank at home.
> Like you said, to each his own, and future or current builders will be
> able to choose for themselves what they think is right. And of course,
> each DAR will have his/her own views on what they will allow.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 805.4 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs--195 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
>
>
> On Nov 1, 2009, at 10:06 AM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:
>
>> When I first got my Avid MK IV, I put filters on both sides between the
>> wing tanks and the header tank. All was fine for a while (about 10-15
>> hrs) till one evening I took off from my strip and as I climbed out and
>> got to 450', the engine started to miss and spit. I ended up landing in
>> a neighbors field with no dammage to me or the plane. What had happened
>> I found out the next day, was the filter on the tank I was using started
>> to plug just a bit and so the flow was reduced. The engine never did
>> die, but would not run up above about 4000 rpm. Durring the takeoff, it
>> was turning up about 6200, and when the small header tank was emptied,
>> things got "interesting". I posted this account on the Avid list, and
>> Steve Winder, who ran the Avid factory for years said NEVER HAVE FILTERS
>> BETWEEN THE WING TANKS AND THE HEADER TANK. He used all capitol letters
>> also! He said that it takes very little to stop or slow the gravity
>> flow, and ofcourse that is what caused my problem. He also said, that
>> the header tank works as a gascolator to filter the fuel so the filters
>> between the tanks aren't needed. I had a final filter between the
>> header tank and the fuel pump, and so to gaurd against that one plugging
>> and putting me in the trees, I put in a T in my fuel line and added a
>> second filter alongside the first one and then a T back into the fuel
>> line with a small valve to stop the flow through that filter. When I'm
>> taking off, I open that valve and then close it after I get up to 750'
>> or so. If the main filter ever starts to plug while in flight, I will
>> open the valve for the second filter and the fuel will be able to flow
>> through that one and I will stay out of the trees. So far that has
>> worked good for me and I still have potentialy three filters to stop any
>> crud getting to the carb. The header tank, the inline filter, pluss the
>> backup filter which will only be used if the first inline filter plugs.
>> To each his own, but this works for me. I have always used the Fram
>> paper filters and they have worked good for me.
>> Take care, Jim Chuk
>>
>> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen,
>> Series-5)
>> > From: flyboytr@bellsouth.net
>> > Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 05:43:45 -0800
>> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> >
>> <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
>> >
>> > Lynn,
>> > ...you get to read a lot of email! [Shocked]
>> >
>> > I really don't want to get rid of my filters either. We are still
>> only talking about one filter between a wing tank and the header tank.
>> Once the fuel is in the header tank it should then benefit from the
>> "suction" of the mechanical pump.
>> >
>> > My last two hurdles are removing the wing tank outlet fitting to
>> check the finger strainers and cutting the root rib on the wing so the
>> fuel line doesn't have to have a hump in it before descending down
>> towards the header tank. Thanks again for all your input...always
>> appreciated!
>> >
>> > Travis
>> >
>> >
>> > Lynn Matteson wrote:
>> > > I've read all your posts, and all of any mail that comes into
>> my email box....I don't go to the "site".
>> > >
>> > > I doubt that the filter element is your problem. I'm keeping
>> all of
>> > > my filters, no matter how much certain engineers might (for me)
>> > > confuse the issue with talk of surface tension, etc., my system
>> flows
>> > > fuel as long as there's fuel in the system to flow...nudge, nudge,
>> > > wink, wink. ; )
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Lynn Matteson
>> > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 804.3 hrs
>> > > Countdown to 1000 hrs--196 to go
>> > > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
>> > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> > > Rotec TBI-40 injection
>> > > Status: flying (and learning)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Oct 31, 2009, at 11:58 PM, FlyboyTR wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > :D
>> >
>> > --------
>> > Travis Rayner
>> > Mobile, AL
>> > Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
>> > Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
>> > ADI-II Autopilot
>> > AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270420#270420
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more._-
>> ============================================================ _-
>> ============================================================ _-
>> ==========================================================
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
Time: 03:58:12 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen, Series-5)
I think you'll find that the filter on a GA aircraft is disguised and
called a gascolator...but I could be wrong.
Inside my Rotec TBI is what is called a "last chance" filter. It
catches the bad stuff that would otherwise try to plug the 50-some
holes in the fuel discharge tube. These holes are reportedly .
010" (ten-thousandths of an inch) in diameter. I trust my Purolator
glass filters to keep the last chance filter, and thence the fuel
discharge tube, clean. I won't take my "pre-filters" out unless
something or someone proves that this is an incorrect design. And as
long as my gravity system flows more than twice what is needed by the
engine, that likelihood seems remote.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 805.4 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs--195 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 1, 2009, at 4:24 PM, Dwight Purdy wrote:
>
> I do not comment often but listen a lot.
> On this subject of fuel filters will say that in my 32 years of
> flying I have never seen a filter on a GA certified aircraft. That
> does not include any of the newer fuel injected ones. I have had a
> paper filter for a short time on my model II. While running premix
> and some ethanol in the fuel I was forced to land off field. Once
> that paper gets oil soaked water will not pass properly. Took the
> filter out and no problem.
>
> Dwight Purdy
> Model II
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 11:42 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen,
> Series-5)
>
>
>>
>> The only problem I have....and this is just a shade-tree mechanics
>> view...is the paper filter. It is said that they will clog if
>> water gets to them. I can see the benefit of not having a filter
>> in the line to the header tank, as the header tank DOES work like
>> a gascolator, and as such will catch (and allow for the sampling
>> of) any crud that might get there. I put the filters in my
>> down...to the header...lines because I wanted to see any crud
>> that just got into those lines from airport A, or airport B,
>> etc., or from my own 300- gallon tank at home.
>> Like you said, to each his own, and future or current builders
>> will be able to choose for themselves what they think is right.
>> And of course, each DAR will have his/her own views on what they
>> will allow.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 805.4 hrs
>> Countdown to 1000 hrs--195 to go
>> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> Rotec TBI-40 injection
>> Status: flying (and learning)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 1, 2009, at 10:06 AM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:
>>
>>> When I first got my Avid MK IV, I put filters on both sides
>>> between the wing tanks and the header tank. All was fine for a
>>> while (about 10-15 hrs) till one evening I took off from my
>>> strip and as I climbed out and got to 450', the engine started
>>> to miss and spit. I ended up landing in a neighbors field with
>>> no dammage to me or the plane. What had happened I found out
>>> the next day, was the filter on the tank I was using started to
>>> plug just a bit and so the flow was reduced. The engine never
>>> did die, but would not run up above about 4000 rpm. Durring the
>>> takeoff, it was turning up about 6200, and when the small header
>>> tank was emptied, things got "interesting". I posted this
>>> account on the Avid list, and Steve Winder, who ran the Avid
>>> factory for years said NEVER HAVE FILTERS BETWEEN THE WING TANKS
>>> AND THE HEADER TANK. He used all capitol letters also! He said
>>> that it takes very little to stop or slow the gravity flow, and
>>> ofcourse that is what caused my problem. He also said, that the
>>> header tank works as a gascolator to filter the fuel so the
>>> filters between the tanks aren't needed. I had a final filter
>>> between the header tank and the fuel pump, and so to gaurd
>>> against that one plugging and putting me in the trees, I put in
>>> a T in my fuel line and added a second filter alongside the
>>> first one and then a T back into the fuel line with a small
>>> valve to stop the flow through that filter. When I'm taking off,
>>> I open that valve and then close it after I get up to 750' or
>>> so. If the main filter ever starts to plug while in flight, I
>>> will open the valve for the second filter and the fuel will be
>>> able to flow through that one and I will stay out of the trees.
>>> So far that has worked good for me and I still have potentialy
>>> three filters to stop any crud getting to the carb. The header
>>> tank, the inline filter, pluss the backup filter which will only
>>> be used if the first inline filter plugs. To each his own, but
>>> this works for me. I have always used the Fram paper filters
>>> and they have worked good for me.
>>> Take care, Jim Chuk
>>>
>>> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Flow Problems, Again! (Vixen,
>>> Series-5)
>>> > From: flyboytr@bellsouth.net
>>> > Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 05:43:45 -0800
>>> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> >
>>> <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
>>> >
>>> > Lynn,
>>> > ...you get to read a lot of email! [Shocked]
>>> >
>>> > I really don't want to get rid of my filters either. We are still
>>> only talking about one filter between a wing tank and the header
>>> tank. Once the fuel is in the header tank it should then benefit
>>> from the "suction" of the mechanical pump.
>>> >
>>> > My last two hurdles are removing the wing tank outlet fitting to
>>> check the finger strainers and cutting the root rib on the wing
>>> so the fuel line doesn't have to have a hump in it before
>>> descending down towards the header tank. Thanks again for all
>>> your input...always appreciated!
>>> >
>>> > Travis
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Lynn Matteson wrote:
>>> > > I've read all your posts, and all of any mail that comes into
>>> my email box....I don't go to the "site".
>>> > >
>>> > > I doubt that the filter element is your problem. I'm keeping
>>> all of
>>> > > my filters, no matter how much certain engineers might (for me)
>>> > > confuse the issue with talk of surface tension, etc., my system
>>> flows
>>> > > fuel as long as there's fuel in the system to flow...nudge,
>>> nudge,
>>> > > wink, wink. ; )
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Lynn Matteson
>>> > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>>> > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 804.3 hrs
>>> > > Countdown to 1000 hrs--196 to go
>>> > > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
>>> > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>>> > > Rotec TBI-40 injection
>>> > > Status: flying (and learning)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Oct 31, 2009, at 11:58 PM, FlyboyTR wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > :D
>>> >
>>> > --------
>>> > Travis Rayner
>>> > Mobile, AL
>>> > Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
>>> > Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
>>> > ADI-II Autopilot
>>> > AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Read this topic online here:
>>> >
>>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270420#270420
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more._-
>>> ============================================================ _-
>>> ============================================================ _-
>>> ==========================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
Time: 06:38:24 PM PST US
From: Lowell FITT <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel flow issues
I re-read the initial post carefully and what comes to my mind is the much
discussed
- in times past - phenomenon of the fuel draining unevenly from the tanks.
I can't suggest the best key word for an archive search, but there is a lot
in there about this.
It appears that the problems mentioned occur after a top off of the tanks
where
both tanks are full. I might suggest that what you are experiencing is the
typical
one tank draining faster than the other with no real fuel flow issues other
than the cosmetic ones from looking at the transparent tubing and seeing
the fuel differential in the tanks.
As mentioned, there has been a lot of theorizing on why this happens. Some
have
placed fuel shut off valves to control it and some have learned to ignore
it.
To my knowledge, there has never been a Kitfox that had an engine stoppage
with fuel in the tanks - assuming the system has been properly designed and
maintained.
What I might suggest. The next time you see it happening, purposely try
flying
a bit uncoordinated with the slow draining tank high and see if you see some
difference in your fuel flow. I have many hours in flights of four or more
-
up to ten Kitfoxes, and can state that lots of guys fly with one wing low.
With
head pressure a recent discussion topic, a high wing tank will have
significantly
higher head pressure then the low wing tank and will drain more quickly
than the low wing tank and might even trans fill to the low wing tank. With
partially filled tanks the phenomenon will not be as pronounced.
We had one pilot with a Franklin Powered Moddel V meet up with us at Elk
City,
Idaho and he was sweating bullets. He insisted that he had a fuel flow
problem
and would not fly another minute until it was checked out. With the six
airplanes,
we found enough tools to pretty much disassemble his fuel system. We
tested everything including fuel flow in all the attitudes we could put the
airplane
in while on the ground and after he was satisfied, we flew the rest of
the week with no incidents. In this case, he just needed to be reassured.
Our airplanes are designed with no thrust offset in the engine mounts. This
almost
always requires some rudder input for coordinated flight or some rudder
trim.
With rudder trim, the typical trim tab is fixed and ground adjustable and
will not result in perfect trim in all speed ranges. With a long cross
country
in mind, it is not uncommon to sort of fall asleep at the wheel and follow
the
GPS ,and enjoying the view without paying as much attention to the little
black
ball.
Lowell
________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
Time: 06:59:20 PM PST US
From: "Ed Gray" <egraylaw@swbell.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 2 pictures for you
Kitfox folks, my Model II, rotax 532 with GSC fixed pitch prop is now
flying, after a long dormant period. After being purchased from Denny in
1990 is sat in a barn in Arkansas for 18 years (the owner died) before I
started construction in April of '08. It is all built per 1990 instructions
excepting the leading edge of wings. I used the McBean plastic extrusion
and covered the upper surface 12 inches behind that with .016 aluminum from
ACSpruce, eliminating the scalloped shape. It came with 2 six gallon alum.
wing tanks which feed a round alum. header tank which I opted to place
behind the copilot seat.
It flies great, jumps off the runway in about 100 feet and climbs about 900
fpm at 800 lbs. I put a GSC sport EFIS in the panel to handle all flight
info without vacuum. It also gives me map, airport data, terrain and
"highway in the sky" approaches. After two hours flying, I still can't
digest all the info its giving me. It cruises at 75 mph at 5500 rpm and
tops at 88 mph. I still need to add fairings to the jury struts and landing
gear, and wheel pants would help too.
Many thanks to the McBeans for advice and support, and many others on this
list who have answered questions and offered tips. As one guy said, "plane
is flying and now tinkering begins". I got some home made floats from Kasper
in Canada, and plan on installing them sometime next spring. Then finishing
his retract system which is actuated by compressed air. That promises to be
fun. Anyone flying in DFW area let me know and we will fly together. My
plane on the trailer lives in my garage. Maybe I will get to Sun n Fun next
year. Next project, start saving so I can buy a New super sport from KITFOX
LLC.
PS, anyone have wheel pants for 18 inch wheels for sale?
PPS My GSC prop is a 10 degree climb prop. The guy at GSC said I could
ream the holes thru the roots a few degrees to make it ground adjustable.
Has anyone done that, and how many degrees would I want to add to make a
cruise prop?
PPPS I found that I need to budget an extra half hour at the airport to
answer all the questions from admirers--aint that fun?
Ed Gray Dallas KII 582 GSC
DSCN1082.JPG
DSCN1086.JPG
These pictures were sent with Picasa, from Google.
Try it out here: http://picasa.google.com/
________________________________ Message 16
____________________________________
Time: 07:49:36 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 2 pictures for you
From: "carlisle" <carlisle_99@yahoo.com>
Ed...Beautiful! Mine's a model 2 (ser # 707), 582, GSC prop completed in
1991.
Only complaint is that I live here in South Dakota now and weather precludes
the amount of flying I'd like to do. Lived in Dallas/Denton for many years
during
college years.
That leading edge mod looks nice, even from far away in the pics. Would
definitely
do that if I had it to do over again. That blunt front spar/leading edge
that's standard is a big drag penalty.
My GSC prop was also fixed pitch @ 10 deg. When I had it overhauled this
year,
I sent it to the factory. For $150, they beautifully restored the blades,
balanced
them, and feathered out the hole in the root of each blade for me so that
it's now ground adjustable. Change from 10 to 11 degrees pitch gave me 5-7
mph faster level cruise @ 4-600 fewer rpm and 100 to 200 degrees cooler
egt's.
It just sounds and feels happier. What a difference one degree makes.
Only other mod I'd recommend, especially in the hot Dallas summers, would be
to
make a couple of simple wooden standoff's to get the radiator out of the
turbulent
flow on the underbelly. I was pushing the red line on the coolant temp
on warmer days before I did that one.
Happy Flying!
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270537#270537
________________________________ Message 17
____________________________________
Time: 08:32:41 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Newbie mistake - pulled the sump plug to drain my
tanks
From: "cschmokel" <cschmokel@gmail.com>
Hey everybody,
Full disclosure .. I'm a newbie pilot, owner operator, mechanic, etc etc.
I decided to try folding my Kitfox 5 taildragger wings back .. and was told
by
a former Kitfox 4 owner that draining most of the fuel is a good idea
otherwise
it will spill.
OK, so I pulled the sump plug on the wing and started collecting gas. After
about
a minute, I noticed gas spurting out holes in the trailing edge of the wing.
I replaced the sump plug and injected soapy water into the holes to dilute
the gas and hopefully get rid of most of it. Apparently the sump plug is
recessed
too far and it ends up draining into the wing partially.
- Was this the right thing to do?
- What now? Should I just leave it as is and let whatever water/soap/gas
mixture
in the wings evaporate?
- Do I really need to drain the tanks to fold the wings back?
Thanks guys
Carl
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270541#270541
________________________________ Message 18
____________________________________
Time: 11:52:15 PM PST US
From: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE Newbie mistake - pulled the sump plug to drain my
tanks
> From: cschmokel [cschmokel@gmail.com]
> - Do I really need to drain the tanks to fold the wings back?
I did it the few times I folded my wings, Carl. But I always drain the fuel
from
the gascolator; the lowest point in the system. It is also much easier
because
it drains directly in a jerrycan on the floor.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure |
Painful when you buy almost the exact same part from NAPA Aviation Supply
for 60.00 and it has a full year warranty no questions.... hmmmmm
PS
send me more photos of your Rocket~
Stunning
Dave
In a message dated 11/2/2009 10:14:54 A.M. Central Standard Time,
vft@aol.com writes:
I bought the rebuilt one I changed out in N24ZM from Drakes. Nice folks. I
remember being shocked at the then $600 cost until they told me what a new
one went for. Seeing as the one in N24ZM didn't make the 500 hr inspection
I did talk to TCM about warranty. The reply I got was that the failure was
considered "normal". After a hung up the phone it was a few days before
the pain wore off and I could sit again.
Danny Melnik
F1 N14ZM
Rocket Factory
Melbourne, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: FlyboyTR <flyboytr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:11 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: IO240 alternator swap and coupler failure
(mailto:flyboytr@bellsouth.net) >
Quality Aircraft sent me a quote of $550. They get their rebuilt
couplings from
Drake Air (same company I purchased my "failed unit" from, 254 hours ago).
I
guess I will be ordering tomorrow. ...I feel so used! [Shocked] I am
still
perplexed how such a simple part cost so much. The current NEW pricing
from TCM
is $1,997.97.
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
_http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270560#270560_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270560#270560)
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Ducatti Ignition Coil Needed |
Not muffler heat but more likely resistance.
Plugs were grounded when i tested.
----- Original Message -----
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 9:45 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ducatti Ignition Coil Needed
>
> swap the coils you have, and see if the issue follows the coils.
> Hopefully it does and this is the cheap fix! Just swap the plugs coming
> out of the engine and it will swap coils.
>
> As the stator is redundant, you should have a hot spark on one front, one
> rear plug if there is an issue with the stator. To loose both front
> plugs, then you would have to loose the same coils on the stator. Not a
> very likely event.
>
> Did you try to turn the engine over with the plugs out and not grounded?
>
> Can you get a picture of the melted wires? I am assuming the heat came
> from the exhaust and not from electrical heat. If there was enough
> resistance in the wires to cause them to overheat and melt, you have
> bigger issues.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1450
> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270584#270584
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel flow stop after unport tank |
Hmmmmm.....I was hoping that the vent line was partially obscured,
like mine is, behind the root rib of the right wing. I can't see
every inch of my clear vent line, but I know that it is straight
downhill. Well, that shoots that theory all to hell! : )
I'm curious as to why the left tank feeds faster. From time to time
my right tank will feed faster than the left, but not often. This may
be due to me gawking out the left side of the plane, and banking to
get a better view, which is what got me into a low-fuel/out-of-fuel
predicament a few weeks ago.
I have played (the first time wasn't playing!) with the un-porting of
the tanks on several occasions...to the point of the low-fuel warning
light coming on....and it is quite satisfying to (bank the plane,
and) see the fuel flow into the clear filters, and up the clear vent
line, making the low-fuel light go back off, and letting me know that
I've got about 15 more minutes of flight left. But like you
mentioned, a jet or two getting in the way of your carefully schemed
plan will rattle your cage. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 805.4 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs--195 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 2, 2009, at 10:27 AM, bjones@dmv.com wrote:
>
> Lynn,
>
> Thanks for the suggestion.
>
> Once on the ground, I can see the entire vent line run in my
> application.
> There is no fuel trapped in it in low spots and no low spots to
> hold fuel.
> So for fuel not to flow when I cover the fuel tank pickup with gas
> Almost
> seems to defy laws of physics as I understand them.
>
> I susspect low head pressure and marginal resistance from the inline
> filter element that others have alluded to is at play.
>
> The left wing tank feeds faster so I generally put more gas in it
> prior to
> departure, consequently the left tank may not have unported in the
> descents. I am tempted to try clear fuel lines on all runs from wing
> tanks to header tank to see if fuel is caught in pockets on the
> feed lines
> and to see if fuel is still being drawn from the left wing tank.
>
> A couple of times when I have unported the right tank and stopped fuel
> flow thru that inline filter, I have climbed to altitude over my local
> airport (5,000' long) to see if I run the header tank dry while I
> still
> have fuel in both wings or whether fuel will start to flow again
> when the
> header tank gets low enough but due to heavy traffic with jet ops
> mixed in
> and being a bit nervous about it, I have not given this an nadequate
> trial.
>
> BJ
> N154K model IV
> Rotax 912
> about 600 hours
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: Ducatti Ignition Coil Needed |
Just to clarify: Currently BOTH plugs are dull on front cylinder.
If i swap the coils and it follows why do you say it is a cheap fix?
What would be the issue in that case?
So just swap the plastic plugs coming out of engine going to coils and if
the dull fire is now on both plugs for rear cylinder then we know that it is
what issue?
----- Original Message -----
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 9:45 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ducatti Ignition Coil Needed
>
> swap the coils you have, and see if the issue follows the coils.
> Hopefully it does and this is the cheap fix! Just swap the plugs coming
> out of the engine and it will swap coils.
>
> As the stator is redundant, you should have a hot spark on one front, one
> rear plug if there is an issue with the stator. To loose both front
> plugs, then you would have to loose the same coils on the stator. Not a
> very likely event.
>
> Did you try to turn the engine over with the plugs out and not grounded?
>
> Can you get a picture of the melted wires? I am assuming the heat came
> from the exhaust and not from electrical heat. If there was enough
> resistance in the wires to cause them to overheat and melt, you have
> bigger issues.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1450
> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270584#270584
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Header tank |
Problem fixed, installed a new Plated steel bushing (sharp threads) applied Permatex
9 AR Tack and Seal. Let it set a few days , no leaks to date. Thanks for
all the responses.
--------
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV , Phase 1
Jabiru 2200 , 4.0 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270625#270625
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel flow stop after unport tank |
Whichever tank has the header vent line run to it, will feed faster. It is
just hydraulic head pressure which causes it, and unless you vent to both
tanks there will always be a difference.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270634#270634
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel flow stop after unport tank |
Lynn,
My plane is unusually bare bones so a lot is exposed including the vent line.
I mentioned the slower left side fuel flow just in case it triggered a
thought about fuel restriction on that side, although I suspect the cxause
is pilot technique and rigging.
Its probably time to install a low fuel warning system. Thanks for
mentioning it.
BJ
N154K
I mentioned the right fuel useage in ncase it triggered a thought about
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Hmmmmm.....I was hoping that the vent line was partially obscured,
> like mine is, behind the root rib of the right wing. I can't see
> every inch of my clear vent line, but I know that it is straight
> downhill. Well, that shoots that theory all to hell! : )
>
> I'm curious as to why the left tank feeds faster. From time to time
> my right tank will feed faster than the left, but not often. This may
> be due to me gawking out the left side of the plane, and banking to
> get a better view, which is what got me into a low-fuel/out-of-fuel
> predicament a few weeks ago.
>
> I have played (the first time wasn't playing!) with the un-porting of
> the tanks on several occasions...to the point of the low-fuel warning
> light coming on....and it is quite satisfying to (bank the plane,
> and) see the fuel flow into the clear filters, and up the clear vent
> line, making the low-fuel light go back off, and letting me know that
> I've got about 15 more minutes of flight left. But like you
> mentioned, a jet or two getting in the way of your carefully schemed
> plan will rattle your cage. : )
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 805.4 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs--195 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
>
>
> On Nov 2, 2009, at 10:27 AM, bjones@dmv.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Lynn,
>>
>> Thanks for the suggestion.
>>
>> Once on the ground, I can see the entire vent line run in my
>> application.
>> There is no fuel trapped in it in low spots and no low spots to
>> hold fuel.
>> So for fuel not to flow when I cover the fuel tank pickup with gas
>> Almost
>> seems to defy laws of physics as I understand them.
>>
>> I susspect low head pressure and marginal resistance from the inline
>> filter element that others have alluded to is at play.
>>
>> The left wing tank feeds faster so I generally put more gas in it
>> prior to
>> departure, consequently the left tank may not have unported in the
>> descents. I am tempted to try clear fuel lines on all runs from wing
>> tanks to header tank to see if fuel is caught in pockets on the
>> feed lines
>> and to see if fuel is still being drawn from the left wing tank.
>>
>> A couple of times when I have unported the right tank and stopped fuel
>> flow thru that inline filter, I have climbed to altitude over my local
>> airport (5,000' long) to see if I run the header tank dry while I
>> still
>> have fuel in both wings or whether fuel will start to flow again
>> when the
>> header tank gets low enough but due to heavy traffic with jet ops
>> mixed in
>> and being a bit nervous about it, I have not given this an nadequate
>> trial.
>>
>> BJ
>> N154K model IV
>> Rotax 912
>> about 600 hours
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel flow stop after unport tank |
Oddly my right tank which has the header tank to wing tank vent line draws
fuel slower.
BJ
N154K
>
> Whichever tank has the header vent line run to it, will feed faster. It is
> just hydraulic head pressure which causes it, and unless you vent to both
> tanks there will always be a difference.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270634#270634
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Header tank |
Dan, Glad to hear Permatex worked for you. I finally looked at the sealer I
used on the loose plastic header tank threads. It is Permatex 1BR fast
drying fast setting. I'll find some of the 9 AR. I have another
Permatex form a gasket soft setting product that I think should be used on
gaskets. It doesn't seem to seal by it self.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 2:13 PM, DanM <danm@powerdesignelectric.com> wrote:
>
> Problem fixed, installed a new Plated steel bushing (sharp threads) applied
> Permatex 9 AR Tack and Seal. Let it set a few days , no leaks to date.
> Thanks for all the responses.
>
> --------
> Dan Mc Intyre
> Kitfox IV , Phase 1
> Jabiru 2200 , 4.0 hours
> Sensenich 62x46
> N443DM
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=270625#270625
>
>
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