Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:19 AM - Re: Re: Rotax spark plugs (Dave G)
2. 05:59 AM - Re: Rotax spark plugs (Catz631@aol.com)
3. 06:42 AM - Re: Rotax spark plugs (Roger Lee)
4. 07:27 AM - Rotax spark plugs (Tommy Walker)
5. 07:27 AM - Kitfox IV missing parts (steve@newcap.net)
6. 08:27 AM - Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable (Lynn Matteson)
7. 08:28 AM - Re: Kitfox IV missing parts (Weiss Richard)
8. 08:32 AM - Re: Kitfox IV missing parts (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
9. 08:52 AM - Re: Rotax spark plugs (Roger Lee)
10. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: Rotax spark plugs (mic thiessen)
11. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: Rotax spark plugs (Pete Christensen)
12. 12:50 PM - Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable (Marco Menezes)
13. 01:18 PM - Re: Engine Restraint Cable (akflyer)
14. 01:30 PM - Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable (Lynn Matteson)
15. 02:32 PM - Re: Engine Restraint Cable (n85ae)
16. 04:13 PM - Re: Rotax spark plugsRotax spark plugsRotax spark plugs (Noel Loveys)
17. 04:54 PM - Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable (KITFOXZ@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax spark plugs |
Roger, I understand you are in a debate here and it may be desirable to
"win" rather than discuss but I can't completely agree with your stand here.
It's too absolute. In the manual and the product sheet Rotax specifies only
a single product is acceptable, the one they sell. Period. They also
specifically dictate that NO other product is acceptable, because they have
not tested or approved it. That is in their bulletins and by your posting is
the only way that you will accept. That is fine as far as opinion goes, and
in fact would be the standard as far as liability and warranty for Rotax but
it hardly means that no other product will work. CPS, LEAF, and perhaps
Lockwood are reputable dealers with experience and knowledge who sell
alternatives. There are alternative and aftermarket rings, pistons, ignition
modules seals and many other parts for these aircraft engines that are
perfectly acceptable in service and are absolutely not approved by Rotax.
Many people believe that in some cases these aftermarket parts are superior.
If the product Rotax recommends becomes unavailable they would find another,
despite the fact they had already declared that no other would be deemed
acceptable. This has already happened.
I understand that you offer guidance based on your opinion and experience
but I think you step a little too far when you declare that any variance is
wrong, as you instantly condemn the other mentioned dealers every
aftermarket manufacturer and perhaps even Rotax themselves. There are few
absolutes in any field of endevour and they are usually pretty self evident.
Perhaps we can agree that conventional antiseize is not the best choice in
this application and suggest using a more suitable alternative.
In my experience a declaration that "I am right" and "you are wrong and must
admit it" just backs people into corners, starts arguments and inevitably
ends in a reference to Nazis.
(oh dear, I've just argued against what is in the rotax manuals, I'm going
to hell)
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotax spark plugs
> The right way is what is in the Rotax manuals, SB's or taught in Rotax
> school. Any thing other than that is wrong and there is no way to argue
> against what's in the Rotax or aircraft manual's.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax spark plugs |
Roger,
I for one highly respect your input. You pretty much mirror everything I
have been taught about this engine in school. Your logical analysis of engine
problems/querks during the course of this forum have greatly helped me !
Keep it coming, It is obvious that you know what you are talking about!
Dick Maddux
Fox 4-1200
912 UL
Milton,Fl
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax spark plugs |
Hi Guys,
My comment on what's in the Rotax manual is the difference between right and wrong
and technically it is as far as Rotax goes, but you see I don't use the Rotax
paste either if you read my last post. I use the one from MG Chemicals. As
far as what's in the manuals you or I can't really argue that because that's
what's in writing. I do believe there are good after market things to use whether
it be something simple such as the paste or some other part. For instance
the oil pressure sender that Rotax wants you to use is a VDO sender with the
anti vibration ring at about $245, but the exact same sender with out the anti
vibration ring is $40. So in this instance we are wrong according to Rotax to
use it, but it is perfectly acceptable to use this sender because it is the identical
sender except for the metal ring. This is also supported by all the Rotax
distributors here in the states.
So my point is I and or we can use other parts, I don't have any issue with that,
but when swapping parts do it whit good forethought and a good educated reasoning
that will still accomplish and meet Rotax's needs or specs. The paste we
have been talking about needs to be thermal conducting and should be silicone
based, but anti seize doesn't meet that spec. That was my whole issue for not
using anti seize.
I don't believe Rotax has the best oil filter either there are at least 3 other
better filters, but to be right you would have to use the one in the manual.
I'm definitely not an absolute guy and I'm am a progressive and a person that
researches and evaluates new stuff all the time and I believe at times there is
something better that comes along that Rotax or a plane Mfg doesn't use or know
about, but if I change something it is moving forward and for the better,
no use doing something worse or going backward. Anti seize is going backward.
You can use other heat conducting paste. In my first post that's all I said was
use a heat conducting paste and was not brand specific.
I commend Paul because he did his homework and that's all it usually takes. When
you change something not in the manual have a good reason for doing so. That
said remember if you do do things not in the manual it could cost you your warranty
if you are still in that phase.
I love these forums because I like to learn and help people, I truly dislike arguments
or confrontations. I absolutely don't mind being questioned where or how
I got info, but we are here I hope to help each other not blast the other guy
because he is different. We are here to educate one another and keep our engines
from failing prematurely and make each others life easier so history or
those failures don't repeat themselves.
To me debates on ideas or products are good, just be kind to the other guy just
as you would want someone to be towards you. We should be trying to make each
person's road a little smoother and help each other over the pot holes.
Remember the Three Musketeers:
All for One and One for all.
Education, education, education
I'm 56 and still go to many schools for one thing or another very regularly. The
mind is a terrible resource to waste.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273706#273706
Message 4
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| Subject: | Rotax spark plugs |
Re Roger Lee's qualifications.
I've "known" Roger for several years on the Matronics Rotax list. He is
immeninently qualified and his advice is always spot on. Just wish I
lived nearby so he could perform some of the maintenance I sometimes
need.
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Not Archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Kitfox IV missing parts |
My partner and I bought a partially complete Kitfox classic IV about 5
years ago and have recently been pushing to get it done after many
frustrations trying to have it registered as an advance ultralight or
home-built. We are missing the piece that attaches to the tube on the hull
end of the aileron, it has a round tube piece and a bell crank that allows
the ailerons to move. Does anyone have these pieces or know where I can
get them without having to create them myself.
Thx,
Steve Hall
Newmarket, ON
Kitfox IV, Rotax 912
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Restraint Cable |
Now, now, Leni, I'm sure you mean well, but I've got a hunch that the
autographed copy would end up in the little house with the crescent
moon on the door, as a substitute for TP when you run out....I think
I know how you water-cooled guys think.
On the other hand, if they would ever change the rules for Sport
Pilots flying into/over Canada, I would be willing to hand deliver a
copy to you...that way I could see Alaska for myself, and perhaps
insure that the copy wouldn't end up in the crapper. Hey wait a
minute.....if I were to laminate it in plastic, that might insure
its safety from "other" uses. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
do not archive
On Nov 19, 2009, at 12:23 AM, akflyer wrote:
>
> Hey Lynn, I'll take an autographed copy!
>
> signed
>
> a 2 stroke WATER COOLED Junky :-)
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1450
> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273679#273679
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV missing parts |
Steve,
I would recommend calling John McBean at Kitfox Aircraft: http://www.kitf
oxaircraft.com/
They have parts and catalogs and just about anything you will need to brin
g your aircraft to completion.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:59 AM, steve@newcap.net wrote:
>
>
> My partner and I bought a partially complete Kitfox classic IV about 5
> years ago and have recently been pushing to get it done after many
> frustrations trying to have it registered as an advance ultralight or
> home-built. We are missing the piece that attaches to the tube on the
hull
> end of the aileron, it has a round tube piece and a bell crank that allo
ws
> the ailerons to move. Does anyone have these pieces or know where I can
> get them without having to create them myself.
>
> Thx,
>
> Steve Hall
> Newmarket, ON
> Kitfox IV, Rotax 912
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web.com ' What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>
>
>
>
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Kitfox IV missing parts |
John Mcbean at Kitfox would be the first place to look. Jim Chuk Avids=2C
Kitfox 4 MN
> From: steve@newcap.net
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Date: Thu=2C 19 Nov 2009 09:59:55 -0500
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV missing parts
>
>
>
> My partner and I bought a partially complete Kitfox classic IV about 5
> years ago and have recently been pushing to get it done after many
> frustrations trying to have it registered as an advance ultralight or
> home-built. We are missing the piece that attaches to the tube on the hul
l
> end of the aileron=2C it has a round tube piece and a bell crank that all
ows
> the ailerons to move. Does anyone have these pieces or know where I can
> get them without having to create them myself.
>
> Thx=2C
>
> Steve Hall
> Newmarket=2C ON
> Kitfox IV=2C Rotax 912
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web.com ' What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>
>
>
>
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>
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Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax spark plugs |
Thanks to many of you for the support. I won't ever say I'm always right because
heaven forbid I'm certain wrong at times and will say so if I find out different
and pass it along so others can learn, too.
I try only to comment on Rotax issues or some components. I do not own a Kitfox,
but do work on them. You will never see me give advise on a Kitfox fuesalge
because I believe you guy's know more than I do and I can learn from your discussions,
which I do on a daily basis. So see you help me all the time so I try
to pay back by helping with the Rotax or some components like props or brakes.
We are all in aviation together and the more we learn about different things
even if they don't directly affect us helps us understand other problems.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273727#273727
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax spark plugs |
well said
do not archive
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotax spark plugs
> From: ssadiver1@yahoo.com
> Date: Thu=2C 19 Nov 2009 06:40:28 -0800
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Hi Guys=2C
>
> My comment on what's in the Rotax manual is the difference between right
and wrong and technically it is as far as Rotax goes=2C but you see I don't
use the Rotax paste either if you read my last post. I use the one from MG
Chemicals. As far as what's in the manuals you or I can't really argue tha
t because that's what's in writing. I do believe there are good after marke
t things to use whether it be something simple such as the paste or some ot
her part. For instance the oil pressure sender that Rotax wants you to use
is a VDO sender with the anti vibration ring at about $245=2C but the exact
same sender with out the anti vibration ring is $40. So in this instance w
e are wrong according to Rotax to use it=2C but it is perfectly acceptable
to use this sender because it is the identical sender except for the metal
ring. This is also supported by all the Rotax distributors here in the stat
es.
> So my point is I and or we can use other parts=2C I don't have any issue
with that=2C but when swapping parts do it whit good forethought and a good
educated reasoning that will still accomplish and meet Rotax's needs or sp
ecs. The paste we have been talking about needs to be thermal conducting an
d should be silicone based=2C but anti seize doesn't meet that spec. That w
as my whole issue for not using anti seize.
> I don't believe Rotax has the best oil filter either there are at least 3
other better filters=2C but to be right you would have to use the one in t
he manual. I'm definitely not an absolute guy and I'm am a progressive and
a person that researches and evaluates new stuff all the time and I believe
at times there is something better that comes along that Rotax or a plane
Mfg doesn't use or know about=2C but if I change something it is moving for
ward and for the better=2C no use doing something worse or going backward.
Anti seize is going backward. You can use other heat conducting paste. In m
y first post that's all I said was use a heat conducting paste and was not
brand specific.
>
> I commend Paul because he did his homework and that's all it usually take
s. When you change something not in the manual have a good reason for doing
so. That said remember if you do do things not in the manual it could cost
you your warranty if you are still in that phase.
>
> I love these forums because I like to learn and help people=2C I truly di
slike arguments or confrontations. I absolutely don't mind being questioned
where or how I got info=2C but we are here I hope to help each other not b
last the other guy because he is different. We are here to educate one anot
her and keep our engines from failing prematurely and make each others life
easier so history or those failures don't repeat themselves.
> To me debates on ideas or products are good=2C just be kind to the other
guy just as you would want someone to be towards you. We should be trying t
o make each person's road a little smoother and help each other over the po
t holes.
>
> Remember the Three Musketeers:
> All for One and One for all.
>
>
>
> Education=2C education=2C education
> I'm 56 and still go to many schools for one thing or another very regular
ly. The mind is a terrible resource to waste.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson=2C Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273706#273706
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax spark plugs |
I vouch for Roger but he is not as good looking as I am. (But I still use
NAPA filters in my 912)
Pete
;>)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 7:21 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotax spark plugs
>
> Hi Lowell,
>
> What are my qualifications?
> Not being a smart ass here, but just trying to give you my background.
>
> Flying since 1980, started with Ultralights, did all my own maint and did
> research and development for several Ultralight Mfgs and third party add
> on Mfg's.
> Flew Gyros for 4 years, then went to helicopters for 6 years then back to
> fixed wing. Over 4500 hours of flight time, plus maint, development and
> research for numerous Mfg's. After 7-8 Rotax schools over the years I am
> currently an authorized Rotax Repair Center. You can call Jeremy at CPS
> and see what he says about my credentials. I am a LSA repairman with a
> maint. rating and currently have people fly in to me from 6 different
> states so I can do their maint on their LSA's and Rotax engines. They
> bypass all their A&P's for a reason and think the trip to me out weighs
> any mileage issues. I have people from all over the country call me
> everyday and some from around the world. I write some articles on
> different websites and help people with issues on at least 5 aircraft
> websites. I work on several types LSA so I have a very rounded education
> on LSA aircraft and converse with people who are on the LSA committees and
> who administer the LSA rules. If you need references I have 40!
> -50 I can give you including Mfg's. There's more, but I hope this enough
> to put your mind at ease.
> The right way is what is in the Rotax manuals, SB's or taught in Rotax
> school. Any thing other than that is wrong and there is no way to argue
> against what's in the Rotax or aircraft manual's. They are your bible's
> from the Mfg's. If you do something other that what's in the manual then
> it is wrong. Really no way to argue against that other than someone saying
> I'm just going to do it my way and I don't care what the manual says. Then
> by all means have at it, I just try to help people do what is right and
> written in the manual and from almost 30 years of experience and try to
> keep people from making costly mistakes.
>
>
> By the way keep you eyes open for the Dec. 13th release of new and
> revamped LSA rules and regs.
>
> Fly safe, fly far, have fun!
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273643#273643
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Restraint Cable |
Hey Lynn, if Clint doesn't want that autographed magazine I'll take it!
-
do not archive
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 592-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
(firmly attached to airframe with wires, hoses, cables and restraint cable.
)
--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
I'll admit to the "limited knowledge" of the Rotax engine, but please point
out the derogatory remarks....I couldn't find them. This is as close as I
came to making a statement about the Rotax ( November 16, 2009 8:13:49 PM G
MT-05:00 )
"Not to blatantly bash the Rotax (just subtly), but from what I've seen of
'em, there is enough wires, cables, hoses and fuel lines to probably hold t
he engine in place. I think that's what kept ....was it Gary's? ......plane
flyable, and let him land after one blade departed and the resultant vibra
tion shook the engine loose. You old-timers will- recall who I mean. I'm
pretty sure that was a Rotax engine. Seriously though, I'm NOT bashing Rota
x, but I wouldn't bet on any amount of the normal wiring, hoses, etc. to ho
ld ANY engine in place once the vibration of a less-than-complete prop begi
ns."
If anything, I made a derogatory remark about the Jabiru when I said:
"I put one on mine, John, just so I could stop worrying about that aspect o
f flight and worry about other things. Of course, I fly behind a Jabiru, so
maybe it's justified.- : )"
You said:- "Liquid cooled engines are here to stay.- Just look out your
car window."
When I look out my car window, I see air-cooled airplanes flying.....I don'
t see cars flying (well, not too often, anyway)
You said:- I still don't know what the countdown to 1000 means.
It means I am getting near 1000 hours in my homebuilt airplane. I believe i
t is pretty self-explanatory. Some time ago, the moderators asked us to inc
lude in our signatures, some info about what Kitfox we are building, or fly
ing, and what kind of engine, etc. I chose to do this so that others could
see that if they persevered, they will be flying, too. Some folks call it i
nspiration. Apparently it sticks in your craw, otherwise why would you harp
on it?
Once I get to 1000 hours, I can get one of those spiffy prop sleeves from t
he EAA when I go to Oshkosh, and proudly display it. I don't see a display
of your pride in owning a Kitfox...do you? Or do you just drop by here whil
e vacationing from building your RV?
You said: "The bottom line is.- Do your homework."
I did my homework, built my plane, chose a Jabiru engine because that's wha
t I wanted in it, flew it across the country, and apparently the story was
good enough to be printed in one of those "aviation magazines" that you men
tioned earlier.
If you'd like, I could autograph a copy and send it your way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 18, 2009, at 2:07 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
> Hi Lynn,
>
> This all started with your very limted knowledge of Rotax engines and som
e derogatory remarks.---I do not know what you are trying to prove.
- I have flown Kitffox and Avid aircraft with Jabiru engines and they do
not perform very well in slower aircraft with high drag.---Not that t
he engine is bad, they probably work very well in airplanes like the Sonex
or the KR2 which are much faster.- I did some checking, and the torque at
the prop flange of a 912ULS is higher then that of the Jabiru 3300.- Als
o at the rpms that the engine is turning in a Rotax 912ULS is in a perfect
range. This makes the engine/aircraft combination- very efficient..- Ro
tax did a good job on that of that engine.
>
> As a Tech Counselor and president of EAA Chapter, I give facts to people
about the 912 engines, give them a ride and encourage them to to- ride in
a Jabiru powered aircraft.- That is all it takes.
>
> This is fact.- P51 Mustangs used liquid cooling along with the same typ
e gear reduction as the Rotax.- What I don't like about the 912 is the pr
ice.- They have no competition, and- there is no other engine out there
in that hp range with their record or- performance
>
> I know some Kitfox'ers with 2000 hours on there engines.- No problems,
no top end overhaul or anything.- Liquid cooled engines are here to stay.
- Just look out your car window.
>
> I still don't know what the countdown to 1000 means.
>
> Just being honest, and I have flown- Jabiru powered aircraft and just w
ant people to make good choices. Thre is a lot of money and time involved,
- almost impossible to change later, unless you have very deep pockets.
- The bottom line is.- Do your homework.
>
> Also RV4 builder, 80% complete.- Yes, an aircooled O360.
>
> With a closing remark, I would rather be an intelligent donkey then a sma
rt ass.
>
>
> Clint
>
>
> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:45:12 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > Nobody likes an "intelligent donkey", Clint. : )
> >
> > When it gets to 1000, I begin another 1000.
> >
> > Sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder, Clint. Hope you get
> > over it.
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
> > Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
> > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > Rotec TBI-40 injection
> > Status: flying (and learning)
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 17, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Lynn,
> > >
> > > I guess you are right about all these cables and wires holding
> > > things together in the most widely used engine used in LSA. 95% if
> > > I am correct. The 912 ULS unlike the simple Jabiru 2200 with its
> > > equil poor performance which can be verified in several aviation
> > > magazines. Some say is sounds very nice.
> > >
> > >
> > > P.S. What is going to happen when your Jabiru reaches 1000 hours,
> > > we are all waiting in suspense.
> > >
> > > Clint
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> > > > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:13:49 -0500
> > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not to blatantly bash the Rotax (just subtly), but from what I've
> > > > seen of 'em, there is enough wires, cables, hoses and fuel lines to
> > > > probably hold the engine in place. I think that's what kept ....was
> > > > it Gary's? ......plane flyable, and let him land after one blade
> > > > departed and the resultant vibration shook the engine loose. You
> > > old-
> > > > timers will recall who I mean. I'm pretty sure that was a Rotax
> > > > engine. Seriously though, I'm NOT bashing Rotax, but I wouldn't bet
> > > > on any amount of the normal wiring, hoses, etc. to hold ANY
> > > engine in
> > > > place once the vibration of a less-than-complete prop begins.
> > > >
> > > > Lynn Matteson
> > > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
> > > > Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
> > > > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> > > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > > > Rotec TBI-40 injection
> > > > Status: flying (and learning)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 16, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I do not think you need a cable around the engine on a Rotax
> > > > > powered aircraft. I know of 2 props that came apart, the vibratio
n
> > > > > was so great that the carbs flew off and engine stopped. These
> > > > > engines are not like the heavy direct drive aircraft engines.
> > > > >
> > > > > Clint
> > > > >
> > > > > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> > > > > > From: akflyer_2000@yahoo.com
> > > > > > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:56:53 -0800
> > > > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have not had this happen on a "real" plane, but lots of times
> > > > > on models. One of the local guys builds alot and I do the test
> > > > > flights for him. When we go into electrics, he though that a good
> > > > > friction fit would hold the engine on... I flew a few of his
> > > > > variable CG airplanes till I started checking them over real good
> > > > > before the first flight! He used a plug in harness on one and whe
n
> > > > > the motor came off, it came unplugged and was gone. She was
> > > > > uncontrollable tail heavy and came in spinning hard. 2 others he
> > > > > soldered the connections and when they came off it was just
> > > > > exciting for a few till I got it settled down.. it was kinda like
> > > > > chasing a crane load that starts swinging on ya. Both of those
> > > > > planes I was able to land in one piece. I know the scale is
> > > > > different, but I am with Lynn on this one. I would rather have a
> > > > > engine swinging a little and have a chance to get it on the
> > > ground,
> > > > > than to have the engine depart completely and have no option othe
r
> > > > > than to try to bend!
> > > > > > over in the cramped cockpit and kiss your @ss good by!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------
> > > > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> > > > > > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> > > > > > Soldotna AK
> > > > > > Avid "C" / Mk IV
> > > > > > 582 IVO IFA
> > > > > > Full Lotus 1450
> > > > > > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
> > > > > >
> > > > > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Read this topic online here:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273185#273185
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >=============
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > ========== _-
> > > > > =====================
============== _-
> > > > > ==================
> > > > _======
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ==========
> > > =======================
============ _-
> > > ====
> >
> >
> >
>
> ========================
=======
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Restraint Cable |
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> Now, now, Leni, I'm sure you mean well, but I've got a hunch that the
> autographed copy would end up in the little house with the crescent
> moon on the door, as a substitute for TP when you run out....I think
> I know how you water-cooled guys think.
>
> On the other hand, if they would ever change the rules for Sport
> Pilots flying into/over Canada, I would be willing to hand deliver a
> copy to you...that way I could see Alaska for myself, and perhaps
> insure that the copy wouldn't end up in the crapper. Hey wait a
> minute.....if I were to laminate it in plastic, that might insure
> its safety from "other" uses. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 19, 2009, at 12:23 AM, akflyer wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hey Lynn, I'll take an autographed copy!
> >
> > signed
> >
> > a 2 stroke WATER COOLED Junky :-)
> >
> > --------
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> > Soldotna AK
> > Avid "C" / Mk IV
> > 582 IVO IFA
> > Full Lotus 1450
> > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
> >
> > hander outer of humorless darwin awards
> >
>
Nope, would never happen... I prefer Charmin!
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (87 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273764#273764
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_104_424.jpg
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Restraint Cable |
OK, boys, let's start the bidding....:)
Seriously, I didn't know what to think when the EAA Chapter up in
Mason, MI asked me to give a talk about my trip out west, showing my
pictures, etc., but I was really blown away when one of the members
asked me to autograph a copy of the magazine (they had ordered in a
stack of them just for the occasion). I'd never been asked for an
autograph before and was quite flattered. Just think, in all my years
of playing pond hockey, racing cars as an amateur, and drinking and
whoring around, it took learning to fly an airplane to achieve
stardom.....yeah, RIGHT!!! (surely I jest)
I will say one thing, Marco...it'd be easier to deliver it to you
than try to fly under the radar up to Leni's neck of the woods.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
do not archive
On Nov 19, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Marco Menezes wrote:
> Hey Lynn, if Clint doesn't want that autographed magazine I'll take
> it!
>
> do not archive
>
> Marco Menezes N99KX
> Model 2 592-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
> (firmly attached to airframe with wires, hoses, cables and
> restraint cable.)
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Restraint Cable |
If you read the book Voyager by Dick Rutan they lost a prop blade and the
engine unmounted itself and was left hanging in the cowl by a restraint
cable. Another Kitfox builder in Canada who used to be on the list long
ago tore an engine loose as well when he lost a blade. The cable will leave
you with your weight and balance intact.
Regards,
Jeff
N85AE Series 5, IO-240B
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273787#273787
Message 16
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| Subject: | Rotax spark plugsRotax spark plugsRotax spark plugs |
Dick:
I'm just getting back to work on the installation of a 912 in my 'Fox. Like
yourself I'd rather err on the side of the manufacturers recommendations.
To be honest I haven't gone through the 912 manuals yet. although I do have
them printed out.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catz631@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax spark plugsRotax spark plugsRotax spark
plugs
Noel,
The heat transfer paste is used in the 912 as per the manual and Lockwoods
Rotax school. I don't know about its use in the two strokes as I have not
attended class on them yet but will shortly. Lowell has a compelling
argument about mfg.'s recommendations on using other products in their
engines. I think there is a lot of validity there, however, I don't think
Rotax would have much to gain thru the sale of spark plug paste. I for one
will continue using the heat transfer silicon they specified in my 912
course but then again I also use Rotax oil filters.
After seeing first hand some of the results of using "unapproved" products
on these engines (i.e.: destroyed engines) during my course, I have elected
to use what they say to use. The price is cheap enough for me considering
how much this engine costs ! (although the oil filters are getting mighty
sporty ! )
Dick Maddux
Fox 4
912 UL
Milton,Fl
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Restraint Cable |
I had forgotten about the Voyager incident. You are right! I started
this thread several days back because I wanted to find out if there has ever
been a proven case of an engine restraint cable keeping a Kitfox flyable
following a prop failure. There have been several close calls but engines
have stayed onboard with and without a cable restraint. But, I think I am
choosing to use a cable. Those that survived without, I am considering lucky.
I have built and flown models that had prop failures. One of them lost a
blade and the engine mount came from together and the engine departed to
earth. The aircraft was a hand full to fly from that point on. With an
extremely tail heavy situation, it stalls immediately and falls in a tail slide
until the nose eventually falls through at which time it stalls
immediately again. The leaf like antics are almost impossible to deal with by
any
control input. On the last stall before impact, you may be able to plant it
with down elevator input just as it begins to stall the last time. My
flight ended with a high speed splat belly first. Scaled up to actual size it
probably would not have been survivable by the pilot. The model's wing
broke in half from the impact.
I think a broken prop that results in an un-mounted engine can not continue
to run for more than a few seconds because the flywheel effect of the prop
carrying the crank shaft through it's rotation is lost. Also the lack of
a solid mount for the engine (it isn't mounted at all) cancels every
rotational pulse from the pistons. Of course usually, it disconnects itself
from life support in just a few moments anyway as we have discussed.
Ironically, the troublesome rubber carb mounts on the 912 may actually act as
fuses
to prevent engine separation but, I think I can stand the ugly restraint
cable too.
John
Columbus, Ohio
Outback, 912
In a message dated 11/19/2009 5:33:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
n85ae@yahoo.com writes:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
If you read the book Voyager by Dick Rutan they lost a prop blade and the
engine unmounted itself and was left hanging in the cowl by a restraint
cable. Another Kitfox builder in Canada who used to be on the list long
ago tore an engine loose as well when he lost a blade. The cable will leave
you with your weight and balance intact.
Regards,
Jeff
N85AE Series 5, IO-240B
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273787#273787
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