Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:45 AM - elevator gap seals (Catz631@aol.com)
2. 06:00 AM - Re: Model 4 tail wheel spring (Lynn Matteson)
3. 06:42 AM - flaperon riveting (Dave G)
4. 07:10 AM - Re: elevator gap seals (SkySteve)
5. 07:43 AM - Re: Model 4 tail wheel spring (Patrick Reilly)
6. 08:19 AM - Re: flaperon riveting (Tom Jones)
7. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: kitfox 3 (Patrick Reilly)
8. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: kitfox 3 (Dave G)
9. 11:00 AM - Re: flaperon riveting (Lynn Matteson)
10. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: flaperon riveting (fox5flyer)
11. 12:25 PM - Re: Re: flaperon riveting (Lowell Fitt)
12. 01:05 PM - Re: Re: flaperon riveting (Patrick Reilly)
13. 04:05 PM - Re: kitfox 3 (kenjrichter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | elevator gap seals |
I have never been happy with using tape as a gap seal on my elevator as it
invariably wants to shrink, glue gets hard,etc. I have used three types of
tape including the ski tape recommended here. None of it lasts long and it
looks bad (at least in my mind)
Well. while going thru a flea market I found a 5 ft piece of blue rubber
stripping that turned on end looked like a dumbbell ( O-O ) I bought it for a
buck not knowing what to do with it but then when I got back to Fl the idea
hit me that I could cut the O's in half vertically and slide it in for a
gap seal between the stabilizer trailing edge and elevator leading edge. The
stuff was made of a foam type rubber and about 2 1/2 inches wide. The guy
that sold it to me had no clue what it was used for. I only bought the one
piece and the guy went back to Fl for the winter so I can't get anymore. When
he returns in the summer and if he has more I will buy it all. The stuff is
fantastic !!! It fills the gap perfectly and is a piece of cake to install
and looks like it is made for the plane. My airplane is blue so a perfect
match!
Maybe one of you guys might know what this stuff is and where to get it. I
know once you see it installed you will want it.
Dick Maddux
Fox 4
Milton,Fl
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Model 4 tail wheel spring |
Ditto what Stan said...if it's good enough for Stan "the man", it's
good enough for me. : )
Actually I modified my "half-spring" by shortening it to soften the
ride a bit. It wasn't quite enough softening, so the next time I have
the notion, I'll cut a little bit more off the length of the half-
spring/ helper spring/ booster spring....whatever it's called.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 24, 2009, at 2:31 PM, sourdostan@aol.com wrote:
> Buy the 2-leaf (actually 2 and one-half) from John McBean. My
> single spring set-up broke and I replaced it with John's, which is
> doing well and isn't too stiff.
>
> Stan Specht
> Model-IV Speedster 1600 hrs.
> Lakewood, CO
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BruceE7837@aol.com
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:53 am
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Model 4 tail wheel spring
>
> I'm completing a Model 4 started years ago by someone else. My kit
> has a single leaf tail wheel spring, and its been suggested that I
> add a second leaf for safety, should the first leaf break. I'm
> concerned about the tail spring being too stiff. The single
> spring is about 3/16 thick, and is already pretty stiff. What does
> the list think? Bruce Estes
> ==================================== ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com ibution">http://www.matronics.com/
> contribution ==================================== ator?Kitfox-
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
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Message 3
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| Subject: | flaperon riveting |
I am refurbishing one and replacing one flaperon. The one was built
according to the original plans using rivets every eight inches. In this
case the original builder used solid flush rivets.
It looks like the eight inch spec leaves a lot to be desired and I
wanted to shorten the pitch a little, I am torn between four inches and
even shorter. I also wonder what rivets people are using. It would be
most convenient to use 1/8" alum or steel rivets. It seems a lot of work
to do flush riveting when it just sticks out the other side.
Please let me know what you have done to finish this area and how it has
held up.
Dave Goddard
KF IV 1050 / 582 / Warp
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: elevator gap seals |
How about photos of the material and installation?
--------
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274755#274755
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Model 4 tail wheel spring |
Bob, John McBean owns what used to be Kitfox. Google up Kitfox and you will
see the link to his store and ph#. I also have his 3 leak spring. I used
only the 2 full length leaves. I rearched them to get proper castor angle on
my tail wheel. I also had the 1 piece aluminum bar they called a "spring". I
sold it to someone that wanted to use what was originally supplied with his
plane even though they appear to be junk in my mind.
Hey guys airworthy inspection scheduled for 1 week from tomorrow!
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Robert Rivard <bw12345@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
> Who is John McBean and how do you get in touch?
>
> BOB
>
> --- On *Tue, 11/24/09, sourdostan@aol.com <sourdostan@aol.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: sourdostan@aol.com <sourdostan@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Model 4 tail wheel spring
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 2:31 PM
>
> Buy the 2-leaf (actually 2 and one-half) from John McBean. My single
> spring set-up broke and I replaced it with John's, which is doing well and
> isn't too stiff.
>
> Stan Specht
> Model-IV Speedster 1600 hrs.
> Lakewood, CO
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BruceE7837@aol.com
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:53 am
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Model 4 tail wheel spring
>
> I'm completing a Model 4 started years ago by someone else. My kit has a
> single leaf tail wheel spring, and its been suggested that I add a second
> leaf for safety, should the first leaf break. I'm concerned about the tail
> spring being too stiff. The single spring is about 3/16 thick, and is
> already pretty stiff. What does the list think? Bruce Estes
>
> *
> ric.com">www.aeroelectric.comw.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ator?Kitfox-List <http://www.matronics.com/contributionator?Kitfox-List>">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
> *
>
> _blank rel=nofollow>www.aeroelectric.com
> /" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.buildersbooks.com
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> blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: flaperon riveting |
I
> am refurbishing one and replacing one flaperon. The one was built according
to the original plans using rivets every eight inches. In this case the original
builder used solid flush rivets.
>
> It looks like the eight inch spec leaves a lot to be desired and I wanted to
shorten the pitch a little, I am torn between four inches and even shorter. I
also wonder what rivets people are using. It would be most convenient to use 1/8"
alum or steel rivets. It seems a lot of work to do flush riveting when it
just sticks out the other side.
>
> Please let me know what you have done to finish this area and how it has held
up.
>
> Dave Goddard
> KF IV 1050 / 582 / Warp
Dave, the original rivets are 3/32 X 1/8 solid flush aluminum rivets. The manual
mentions you need access to aircraft flush riveting equipment for a professional
appearance.
I tried to do it with a 100 degree counter sink and vise grips. That didn't work
very well for me. It is hard to countersink the skin without making the hole
too large, then the rivet head pulls through. I gave up on the solid flush
rivets and used 3/32 X 1/8 aluminum pop rivets. It makes a good secure seal
on the trailing edge and it looks okay but definitely would cost you points if
you want a show plane.
The flaperon trailing edge is epoxied together from the factory. Mine were starting
to separate when I installed them so I worked more epoxy in where I could,
installed the pop rivets and clamped them tight between the rivets until the
epoxy set up.
I used the 8" spacing and has held up well for 8 years now.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274766#274766
Message 7
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James, Don't be afraid of fabric and painting. I attended a 2 hr workshop on
fabric and a 2 hr workshop on paint at Oshkosh, now I'm an expert.
Ha! Really I had some paint experience with cars previously but no fabric.
That 2 hr fabric workshop along with the Poly Fibre manual and your ready to
fly. (Pun intended.) The painting is a little tougher and requires that you
acquire and learn how to use the painting equipment. Painting is the hardest
part of building a plane or car. It is also very satisfying to be able to
paint. You just spend enough $ for a large enough compressor, throw paint,
learn how to look into the light, and create the requisite # of runs till
you get to the point you only occasionally cause a run yet still get a
glossy coat. Try it, you'll like it.
Pat Reilly
Mod3 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:05 PM, WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>wrote:
> james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
>
> Guy Buchanan wrote:
> > At 07:09 AM 11/22/2009, you wrote:
> >
> > Or if you're like me you just fly so much you barely have time for
> maintenance.
> >
>
>
> That statement describes my biggest heartache. I have a list of things to
> do but I am not willing to sacrifice a weekend flight to do any of them.
>
> I have ordered a new Ivo medium prop (thanks for the hookup with your buddy
> Dave) and I am about to order the Nanco tires. I gap sealed the elevator,
> what a huge improvement that was. Replaced the windshield,
> replaced/upgraded the brakes, upgraded the intercom with one with stereo
> Ipod interface, rewired the charging system so it actually worked, removed
> slop from the aileron system, installed push-to-intercom switches, and
> relocated my radiator. And I have only had the plane since February. One
> of these days i will replace the wing tanks and re plumb the fuel system,
> but I am afraid of fabric and painting still. This toy is a constant
> project but damn is it fun.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> The ink is still drying on my new certificate
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274708#274708
>
>
Message 8
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When I started my refurb, paint and fabric were the top of a long list
of things I was concerned might be too complicated. It turned out to be
one of the easiest and most satisfying. I can't tolerate the solvent in
polyfiber, in fact being in a hangar where someone else did it a couple
of days ago is hard for me. So I used Stewarts Systems waterborne
products. All in all it's far easier than you would expect, whichever
system you use.
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Reilly
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: kitfox 3
James, Don't be afraid of fabric and painting. I attended a 2 hr
workshop on fabric and a 2 hr workshop on paint at Oshkosh, now I'm an
expert. Ha! Really I had some paint experience with cars previously but
no fabric. That 2 hr fabric workshop along with the Poly Fibre manual
and your ready to fly. (Pun intended.) The painting is a little tougher
and requires that you acquire and learn how to use the painting
equipment. Painting is the hardest part of building a plane or car. It
is also very satisfying to be able to paint. You just spend enough $ for
a large enough compressor, throw paint, learn how to look into the
light, and create the requisite # of runs till you get to the point you
only occasionally cause a run yet still get a glossy coat. Try it,
you'll like it.
Pat Reilly
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: flaperon riveting |
Eight inches, flush solid rivets (other side sticks out like you
said), and has held up fine for 800 hrs and 3-1/2 years.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 25, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Dave G wrote:
> I am refurbishing one and replacing one flaperon. The one was built
> according to the original plans using rivets every eight inches. In
> this case the original builder used solid flush rivets.
>
> It looks like the eight inch spec leaves a lot to be desired and I
> wanted to shorten the pitch a little, I am torn between four inches
> and even shorter. I also wonder what rivets people are using. It
> would be most convenient to use 1/8" alum or steel rivets. It seems
> a lot of work to do flush riveting when it just sticks out the
> other side.
>
> Please let me know what you have done to finish this area and how
> it has held up.
>
> Dave Goddard
> KF IV 1050 / 582 / Warp
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ===========================================================
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: flaperon riveting |
The trick with using flush rivets with thin aluminum is to avoid
countersinking. Instead, use a dimpler. Rather than removing metal it
presses the correct amount of impression for the rivet head to be flush with
the metal and gives a full contact and strong union. It's relatively
inexpensive to buy a set of common sizes to be used with a nail and pop
rivet gun or vice grip type. Works great for small projects like the
flaperons. Couple of examples below.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/visedimplers.php
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/popgripdimp.php
>
> Dave, the original rivets are 3/32 X 1/8 solid flush aluminum rivets. The
> manual mentions you need access to aircraft flush riveting equipment for a
> professional appearance.
>
> I tried to do it with a 100 degree counter sink and vise grips. That
> didn't work very well for me. It is hard to countersink the skin without
> making the hole too large, then the rivet head pulls through. I gave up
> on the solid flush rivets and used 3/32 X 1/8 aluminum pop rivets. It
> makes a good secure seal on the trailing edge and it looks okay but
> definitely would cost you points if you want a show plane.
>
> The flaperon trailing edge is epoxied together from the factory. Mine
> were starting to separate when I installed them so I worked more epoxy in
> where I could, installed the pop rivets and clamped them tight between the
> rivets until the epoxy set up.
>
> I used the 8" spacing and has held up well for 8 years now.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV
> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274766#274766
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: flaperon riveting |
Hi Tom,
The original flaperons were glued together at the trailing edge with
structural epoxy or Hysol, I guess today. The rivets were just a fail safe
feature in case the glue broke loose, which it does at times.
Eight inches worked fine for my original 900 hr Model IV and that is what I
am using on the present project. Solid alum rivets are the easiest and
cleanest. A rivet squeezer is handy, but they are pricey. Maybe you could
borrow one for a day.
Regarding the spacing. Good question. If the flaperons I am currently
using weren't already riveted, I think I would use the 3/32" rivets every
four inches as you suggest. 1/8 inch riverts on the trailing edge are big
time overkill in my opinion, since their primary function is to help the
adhesive.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:16 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: flaperon riveting
>
> I
>> am refurbishing one and replacing one flaperon. The one was built
>> according to the original plans using rivets every eight inches. In this
>> case the original builder used solid flush rivets.
>>
>> It looks like the eight inch spec leaves a lot to be desired and I wanted
>> to shorten the pitch a little, I am torn between four inches and even
>> shorter. I also wonder what rivets people are using. It would be most
>> convenient to use 1/8" alum or steel rivets. It seems a lot of work to do
>> flush riveting when it just sticks out the other side.
>>
>> Please let me know what you have done to finish this area and how it has
>> held up.
>>
>> Dave Goddard
>> KF IV 1050 / 582 / Warp
>
>
> Dave, the original rivets are 3/32 X 1/8 solid flush aluminum rivets. The
> manual mentions you need access to aircraft flush riveting equipment for a
> professional appearance.
>
> I tried to do it with a 100 degree counter sink and vise grips. That
> didn't work very well for me. It is hard to countersink the skin without
> making the hole too large, then the rivet head pulls through. I gave up
> on the solid flush rivets and used 3/32 X 1/8 aluminum pop rivets. It
> makes a good secure seal on the trailing edge and it looks okay but
> definitely would cost you points if you want a show plane.
>
> The flaperon trailing edge is epoxied together from the factory. Mine
> were starting to separate when I installed them so I worked more epoxy in
> where I could, installed the pop rivets and clamped them tight between the
> rivets until the epoxy set up.
>
> I used the 8" spacing and has held up well for 8 years now.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV
> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274766#274766
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: flaperon riveting |
Deke, Love Milton Friedman. I have both of those dimplers. On occassion I
have dimpled for flush rivets with a center punch and a hammer. You would be
surprised how consistent you can get with only a couple of practice try's
and how much faster it is than a dimpler, especially that one that uses a
pop riveter.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:00 PM, fox5flyer <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net> wrote:
>
> The trick with using flush rivets with thin aluminum is to avoid
> countersinking. Instead, use a dimpler. Rather than removing metal it
> presses the correct amount of impression for the rivet head to be flush with
> the metal and gives a full contact and strong union. It's relatively
> inexpensive to buy a set of common sizes to be used with a nail and pop
> rivet gun or vice grip type. Works great for small projects like the
> flaperons. Couple of examples below.
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT
> "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
> Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
> -- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/visedimplers.php
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/popgripdimp.php
>
>
>> Dave, the original rivets are 3/32 X 1/8 solid flush aluminum rivets. The
>> manual mentions you need access to aircraft flush riveting equipment for a
>> professional appearance.
>>
>> I tried to do it with a 100 degree counter sink and vise grips. That
>> didn't work very well for me. It is hard to countersink the skin without
>> making the hole too large, then the rivet head pulls through. I gave up on
>> the solid flush rivets and used 3/32 X 1/8 aluminum pop rivets. It makes a
>> good secure seal on the trailing edge and it looks okay but definitely would
>> cost you points if you want a show plane.
>>
>> The flaperon trailing edge is epoxied together from the factory. Mine
>> were starting to separate when I installed them so I worked more epoxy in
>> where I could, installed the pop rivets and clamped them tight between the
>> rivets until the epoxy set up.
>>
>> I used the 8" spacing and has held up well for 8 years now.
>>
>> --------
>> Tom Jones
>> Classic IV
>> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
>> Ellensburg, WA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274766#274766
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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I started the mods to my model 3 today I had planned on adding the pvc to the leading
edge first but I haven't received it yet so I shortened the wings first
it was pretty easy I just cut them back to the next rib and then reattached the
horner wing tips, so I now have a 29' wing span model 3 if the weather is good
tomorrow I plan on flying it.
Ken Richter
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274813#274813
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