Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:13 AM - Re: EGTs are killing me (dave)
2. 04:17 AM - Re: kitfox 3 (dave)
3. 04:28 AM - Re: EGTs are killing me (Dwight Purdy)
4. 05:20 AM - Re: EGTs are killing me (Tom Jones)
5. 05:27 AM - Re: EGTs are killing me (Tom Jones)
6. 07:44 AM - Re: EGTs are killing me (WurlyBird)
7. 07:50 AM - Re: EGTs are killing me (WurlyBird)
8. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: kitfox 3 (Patrick Reilly)
9. 01:04 PM - Re: battery capacity (Noel Loveys)
10. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: kitfox 3 (Patrick Reilly)
11. 02:42 PM - Re: battery capacity (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
12. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: EGTs are killing me (Noel Loveys)
13. 03:33 PM - Re: EGTs are killing me (dave)
14. 04:45 PM - Re: battery capacity (Lowell Fitt)
15. 05:19 PM - Re: EGTs are killing me (WurlyBird)
16. 07:20 PM - Re: kitfox 3 (kenjrichter)
17. 07:47 PM - Re: EGTs are killing me (dave)
18. 08:08 PM - Re: EGTs are killing me (WurlyBird)
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
JAmes
Stock jetting should work fine for you without the HAC MAN -
summer needle set at 3 rd from top
Winter (temps 50 F or less ) drop to 4th notch from top
If you are operating under 5000 ASL all the time you don;t have to worry much
about leaning mixtures.
Your EGT gauge is calibrated @ 70 F so if you are 20 F outside temp and the EGT
gauge shows 1200 then that would be the same as operating at outside temp
of 70 F with a EGT reading of 1150 F
EGT gauge are only a indicator of what is going on inside engine. Plugs will
tell the real story.
You can also set your prop static rpm to 6000 and get a bit more load on it .
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276436#276436
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Pat the tube that runs under your seat will only chenge stick position Left to
right. You will get less travel one way now possibly.
I think the Model 3 mixer is the same as the model 2 unless it has been retrofitted
to the mod 4 upgrade. If you you will have aileron differential.
Take some pics of what you got .
I have the model 2 and 4 manual her if you need them scanned or likely Mc Bean
does as well.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276437#276437
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
I think you might need to load the prop a little more. You do not want to
load it too much though. It is also very important to have a accurate tach.I
only use digital ones. It is very common to have to stay away from certain
rpms while descending .
Dwight Purdy
Model II 503-532
----- Original Message -----
From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 8:55 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: EGTs are killing me
> <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> Somebody with a good working knowledge of the inside of a Bing 54 PLEASE
> HELP ME. Lets start at the beginning, as temps started to drop below
> about 55-60f I started having EGT trouble and I started reading up and
> doing some adjustments. The needle jet, jet needle, and up until
> yesterday the main jet were stock. I installed the HACman which comes
> with 180 main jets and I purchased but did not install the next size up of
> needle jets, 2.74 I think. I read that going up a needle jet size could
> cool off the mid RPMs but I wanted to work with the HACman before I made
> any more adjustments.
>
> So today I had the HACman full rich for all but a couple minutes of the
> flight when I leaned it just to make sure it worked properly. Temp was
> 32f and PA was 500'. Climbing at 62-6500 yielded 1125-1150 and cruise at
> 5800 was 1175 as long as the prop was loaded, any decent and it headed for
> 1200. I went to adjust the needle and found that it was actually on the
> bottom ring, tho one that I am pretty sure is not supposed to be used for
> a setting so I actually took it back up to the third ring from the top
> just to see if it was a case of too far in the right direction is no
> better and nothing improved. According to the chart I have seen I should
> be running the 165 main jet with stock needles at all temperatures at this
> altitude but it is obviously not working.
>
> Should I install the 2.74 needle jets? Might this fix the hi temps? I
> have a new prop on the way that is bigger and that should help a little
> but not when it is unloaded. What adjustments do needles make, is there a
> better needle for my situation? Where I am the temps often swing 25-30
> degrees through the day and I cannot chase these EGTs.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
> The ink is still drying on my new certificate
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276401#276401
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
James, I have the "Arctic Sparrow" in-flight adjustable needles. When descending
I still must watch the EGTs like a hawk.
With the throttle set for 5800-6000 cruise rpm I can descend slowly but need to
turn the needle-mixtures one or two turns richer or egts want to climb above
1225. My gages read 1200 in cruise and I don't worry about 1225 in a descent
as my plugs look good and cocoa brown afterward.
If I reduce the throttle setting to the mid range the gages climb above 1225 quickly.
If I need to get down faster, like when I go to Yakima I need to stay
high to cross a ridge then descend quickly to get to pattern altitude at the tower
controlled airport, I pull the throttle to idle and nose it down. My engine
is air cooled by a fan so cylinder head temps stay above 200 degrees doing
this.
Your egts actually seem normal to me. Descending is the pain in the butt with
rotax two strokes in an airplane. And like Dave pointed out the egt gauges read
higher than the temps actually are when the temperature at the cold junction
in the gage wiring is less than 70 degrees.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276440#276440
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
> What adjustments do needles make, is there a better needle for my situation?
Where I am the temps often swing 25-30 degrees through the day and I cannot chase
these EGTs.
James, scroll down to Part 11...Tuning the Bing Carburetor-"Understanding the Mid-range
circuit".
http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276441#276441
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
dave wrote:
> JAmes
>
> Your EGT gauge is calibrated @ 70 F so if you are 20 F outside temp and the
EGT gauge shows 1200 then that would be the same as operating at outside temp
of 70 F with a EGT reading of 1150 F
A sigh of relief crashes over me. For some reason I had this backwards in my head
yesterday and was afraid I had exceeded 1200 a couple of times.
I thought the 4th notch down was not supposed to be used for a mixture setting,
am I just wrong?
And what about those needle jets, do they help?
By the next time I fly the GSC 66" should be wall art in my son's room and I should
be spinning a 70" medium Ivo. Ooohoohooooh, thrust and pitch, thrust and
pitch, I can't wait. The GSC does need more pitch to it but I thought I could
just leave it and keep an eye on RPMs. It figures that this would not be the
case with 2 strokes. No matter now but I will adjust the Ivo to get the most
fun.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276465#276465
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
Oh, and the plugs are a nice tan color, I replaced them before the last flight.
Although the fouling is undeniable. Stupid Avgas. I am switching plugs about
every 10-15 hours just to be safe. Anyone have a guideline they use if running
Avgas in a 582?
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276466#276466
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Dave, Thanks for info. My linkage is definetly model 3. I will dig into it
next week.
Pat Reilly
mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 6:13 AM, dave <dave@cfisher.com> wrote:
>
> Pat the tube that runs under your seat will only chenge stick position
> Left to right. You will get less travel one way now possibly.
>
> I think the Model 3 mixer is the same as the model 2 unless it has been
> retrofitted to the mod 4 upgrade. If you you will have aileron differential.
>
> Take some pics of what you got .
>
> I have the model 2 and 4 manual her if you need them scanned or likely Mc
> Bean does as well.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> http://www.cfisher.com/
> Awesome *New Forum *
> http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
> Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276437#276437
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | battery capacity |
The main requirement for the battery is to start the engine. If your engine
doesn't have a starter you don't need a battery at all. For that reason the
size of your starter and the amount of work it has to do should be what
governs the capacity of the battery.
This is a bit off line here but certified planes can install electrical load
to the capacity of the alternator if they have a load meter if they don't
have a load meter they are only supposed to install electrical load to 80%
of the generating capacity. Many airplanes have plugins for external
batteries or power supplies to start the engine. That saves a lot on weight
carried aloft.
My 582 was supposed to have a maximum of 16 Amp continuous generating
capacity. The most load I had installed was for around 8 Amp. That meant
that with everything I had on board turned on I was still only at 50% of my
generating capacity.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery capacity
I am using a motor cycle battery. GTX14-BS. Easy to get anywhere, put the
acid in when you buy it. You can buy them anywhere and they are not
expensive.
I change it out at annual time, every other year. Haven't had one go bad.
Just about 1500 hours now on 912ULS.
Clint
and I have a lot of avonics. Model IV-1200
> From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: battery capacity
> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:12:36 -0800
>
>
> Clem,
>
> I bought the PC680 recommended by a friend. You won't be sorry with an
> Odyssey. They will hold a charge up to two years and the one I bought was
> fully charged out of the box. It won't fit in the factory box, but then it
> doesn't require a box. I made a tray out of aluminum with a velcro strap.
>
> Lowell
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "clemwehner" <clemwehner@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 9:28 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: battery capacity
>
>
<clemwehner@sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > How do I determine the minimum battery capacity required for a KF model
IV
> > with a 912 and minimal avionics?
> >
> > I'm convinced the RG (starved electrolyte) battery is the right type
(like
> > the Odyssey), but what size is the right size? We're looking to save
> > weight but don't want to do anything stupid.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Clem Wehner
> > KF IV-912
> > Oklahoma
> >
> > --------
> > Clem
> > Oklahoma
> > Kitfox IV-912, under construction since 1991
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276122#276122
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
>
>
Message 10
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Ken, I was at the hangar today. I pulled out the seat, extended the pushrod
under the seat by about 1/4" using the rod end adjustments. Low and behold
full alieron left and right has only between 1 to 2 degrees of difference.
They originally had 10 degrees difference. Seems close enough to me. I
didn't look at the manual to see if I might have the pages you cited. I
will.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 9:22 PM, kenjrichter <kenrichter@centurytel.net>wrote:
> kenrichter@centurytel.net>
>
> Pat, I looked through my manual and I do have some info on flaperon rigging
> on page cf-18 it shows (flaperon neutral position rigging details) this page
> doesn't say which model it is but the figure looks like a model 3 wing and
> then on page cf-n-1 it has flaperon rigging instructions but its says model
> 4 on that page so this probably won't help you,my manual has different model
> numbers throughout the book not sure why this is.
>
> --------
> Ken Richter
> Osceola,Wi
> model 3 speedster
> 582/GSC prop/Grove gear
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276413#276413
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | battery capacity |
On Sun, December 6, 2009 1:01 pm, Noel Loveys wrote:
> The main requirement for the battery is to start the engine. If your engine
> doesn't have a starter you don't need a battery at all. For that reason the
> size of your starter and the amount of work it has to do should be what
> governs the capacity of the battery.
That would only be true if your essential load was zero. That is, the case if you
require no power at all to complete a flight operation safely in the event of
alternator or VR failure. Night flight, operation in Class B airspace, or IFR flight
would certainly have some essential loads for lighting, navigation and communication.
If you don't *EVER* need those, then it is reasonable to declare you have no essential
load. The reserve battery capacity to complete a flight operation safely while
operating the minimum essential load with an alternator or VR failure is usually
more
than that required for engine starting.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible
from
one party of the citizens to give to the other.
-- Voltaire (1764)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
The lead in the avgas is obviously giving you some fouling. Perhaps you
could wash the eth out of some mogas and mix it 1:1 with the avgas. That
should reduce the lead in your fuel by 50% and also give an octane rating of
close to 94, plenty for a two stroke. In fact if you mixed two parts of
washed mogas to one part avgas you should come out with close to 91 octane
fuel with only 1/3 the lead in it.
What would worry me most is the possibility that lead is plating on your
main roller bearings. If you get a serious build up of lead there it could
cause a seizure... in flight! Additives the scavenge lead only work when
the fuel is burned so they will not protect your lower end. They should
however help keep your plugs from fouling.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of WurlyBird
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:18 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: EGTs are killing me
<james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Oh, and the plugs are a nice tan color, I replaced them before the last
flight. Although the fouling is undeniable. Stupid Avgas. I am switching
plugs about every 10-15 hours just to be safe. Anyone have a guideline they
use if running Avgas in a 582?
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276466#276466
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
WurlyBird wrote:
> Oh, and the plugs are a nice tan color, I replaced them before the last flight.
Although the fouling is undeniable. Stupid Avgas. I am switching plugs about
every 10-15 hours just to be safe. Anyone have a guideline they use if running
Avgas in a 582?
hey -- then you doing it right man.
Pistons start to melt 1300 to 1350 on the 582s 1200 is ok if guage is accurate.
Plugs tell the rea lstroy and yours sound good.
I get 100 to 150 hours out of plugs- I only use Rotax NKG s Solid tipped yeah
yeah yeah -- I know you can do this and they but facts says they din a better
job. compare 6 $ a plug for 150 hour sto chaing your 2 $ plugs every 15
hours .
http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/
http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/ngk.htm
http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/tipsblack.htm
That is what thousands of hours of Rotax time will teach you .
Regular Gas is fine in 582 -- Avgas is not recomended but some use it without
a problem.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276513#276513
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: battery capacity |
This sort of sounds like it is right out of Mr, Nuchols posts of a decade
ago. He, at the time, was a regular participant on the Kitfox list and due
to his urging, I wired in the essential buss and all the trimmings in my
1993 Model IV. It sounded like a good idea at the time. The only thing,
though, was the need in the 912 installation, to put a dummy load in the
charging circuit on case you ever shut down the altenator to prevent frying
the regulator. I don't understand the circuitry, but that was what I
understood.
In short, the only thing my essential buss switch served for was as a
conversation starter as almost everyine that ever sat in the passenger seat
asked what that switch labeled "Essentail Buss" was for. I never installed
the dummy load and my day VFR flying for the 900+ hours the airplane lasted,
I never had an occasion to need it.
Bob Nuchols is the Guru, but most Kitfoxes do not use an alternator that is
capable of runaway charging voltages and the need of an alternator switch to
protect a battery from a runaway alternator. In my opinion, he might have
something to say about certified installations and particularly those in
complex aircraft like the Lancair and some others, but to use much of what
he recommends in our stock Rotax installations results in way overkill. For
some reason, I also prefer circuit breakers to fuses.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul@eucleides.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 2:40 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: battery capacity
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Sun, December 6, 2009 1:01 pm, Noel Loveys wrote:
>> The main requirement for the battery is to start the engine. If your
>> engine
>> doesn't have a starter you don't need a battery at all. For that reason
>> the
>> size of your starter and the amount of work it has to do should be what
>> governs the capacity of the battery.
>
> That would only be true if your essential load was zero. That is, the case
> if you
> require no power at all to complete a flight operation safely in the event
> of
> alternator or VR failure. Night flight, operation in Class B airspace, or
> IFR flight
> would certainly have some essential loads for lighting, navigation and
> communication.
> If you don't *EVER* need those, then it is reasonable to declare you have
> no essential
> load. The reserve battery capacity to complete a flight operation safely
> while
> operating the minimum essential load with an alternator or VR failure is
> usually more
> than that required for engine starting.
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
> In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as
> possible from
> one party of the citizens to give to the other.
> -- Voltaire (1764)
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
dave wrote:
> I get 100 to 150 hours out of plugs
But you also use mogas and so you don't have the fouling problem. But at least
now we are on the topic of e gas. How do you wash it? The only thing I have
heard you can do is add water to it let it sit and then drain it off, this seems
like a very time intensive process. And it requires you voluntarily add WATER
to your FUEL. For the sake of argument though, how much water do you add
to 5 gallons, and how long do you let it sit?
The other thing I understand about e gas is that ethanol is a solvent and will
dissolve the resin used in older fiberglass tanks. I have a leaky tank so I plan
on replacing them soon anyway with the ethanol compatible ones from McB.
Once these are replaced is there anything else that needs to be done/replaced
in order to just run e gas through the engine? i understand that ethanol has
much less energy in it and so burns cooler and at less efficiency, I think I have
heard that it usually has to run a little richer then normal, anyone know
anything about that?
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276523#276523
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Pat, I'm glad you got it figured out if for some reason you do need some info from
my manual I can fax it or copy and mail it to you, I've never really checked
mine for travel it seems the flaperons have so much more authority than standard
ailerons that you would probably never use full travel anyway but its good
to have it set up right, I'm waiting to fly my plane with the new leading edge
installed I have it ready now I just need time and weather to fly.
--------
Ken Richter
Osceola,Wi
model 3 speedster
582/GSC prop/Grove gear
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276529#276529
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
WurlyBird wrote:
>
> dave wrote:
> > I get 100 to 150 hours out of plugs
>
>
> But you also use mogas and so you don't have the fouling problem. But at least
now we are on the topic of e gas. How do you wash it? The only thing I have
heard you can do is add water to it let it sit and then drain it off, this
seems like a very time intensive process. And it requires you voluntarily add
WATER to your FUEL. For the sake of argument though, how much water do you add
to 5 gallons, and how long do you let it sit?
>
> The other thing I understand about e gas is that ethanol is a solvent and will
dissolve the resin used in older fiberglass tanks. I have a leaky tank so I
plan on replacing them soon anyway with the ethanol compatible ones from McB.
Once these are replaced is there anything else that needs to be done/replaced
in order to just run e gas through the engine? i understand that ethanol has
much less energy in it and so burns cooler and at less efficiency, I think I
have heard that it usually has to run a little richer then normal, anyone know
anything about that?
Yikes , You just opened a can of worms here.
E gas --what kind? E 85 or E 10?
Here in Canada we only has up to E 10 which is 10% Ethanol. I cannot comment on
mixing water with fuel as I have not tried it . I only preach what I know and
practice. Watch what you read from gurus James as they are not always tried
and true methods.
I have over 800 hours personally in My Kitfox 582 in the last couple of years alone using ethanol gas.Mind you I have never tested it, I just buy regular grade at pump and dump it in or at marinas. My tanks have not leaked. If they do I will certainly entertain the drop ins from http://www.wingtanks.com/ .
As far as fouling , no i don't have any problems from Lead but 10 to 15 hours
usage and if you got fouling then you had better change your ways and you will
be getting alot more lead deposits on bearings. If you are getting lead fouling.
Take a pic and post it .
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
E 10 is the standard here. Some places seem to "lose" their stickers advertising
the ethanol but it all has it now. These are the plugs I pulled out Saturday
morning. I don't have the exact number of hours on them but it is somewhere
between 15 to 20. I had looked at those drop in wing tanks and now I can't
remember why I was planning on buying from McB. So is there anything else in
the fuel system that the ethanol messes with besides the tanks?
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
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