Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:06 AM - Re: EGTs are killing me (Mark Napier (napierm))
2. 08:15 AM - Re: battery capacity (Guy Buchanan)
3. 08:15 AM - Re: EGTs are killing me (Guy Buchanan)
4. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: EGTs are killing me (Guy Buchanan)
5. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: EGTs are killing me (New subject?) (Guy Buchanan)
6. 08:27 AM - Re: EGTs are killing me (Patrick Reilly)
7. 03:36 PM - Re: EGTs are killing me (WurlyBird)
8. 04:36 PM - Re: EGTs are killing me (dave)
9. 05:43 PM - Re: Leaded gasoline and two stroke oil recommendation (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
10. 05:46 PM - Poem with names from the past (Tom Jones)
11. 06:26 PM - Choke Cable Elbow (wingnut)
12. 06:37 PM - Re: Choke Cable Elbow (Robert Rivard)
13. 06:55 PM - Washed gas and Leaded gas (WurlyBird)
14. 08:41 PM - Re: Choke Cable Elbow (wingnut)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
Hey Cecil,
The 582 is supposed to use 2-stroke air cooled oil. Now *which* oil and
additives to use with what gas, well, that is an endless discussion.
The Pennsoil can be bought inexpensively on-line by the case. I don't
know about any other types because that's all I used.
Time: 08:38:20 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EGTs are killing me
From: Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc@wildblue.net>
Mark,
You say you are using 2-stroke oil for air cooled engines.
The 582 is water cooled - in your experience does it make any difference
to
use the *water* cooled 2-stroke oil or the *air* cooled 2-stroke oil for
the
582 engine ?
Cecil in North Idaho
Kitfox IV 1050 582 C box GSC prop
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: battery capacity |
At 04:39 PM 12/6/2009, you wrote:
>Bob Nuchols is the Guru, but most Kitfoxes do not use an alternator
>that is capable of runaway charging voltages and the need of an
>alternator switch to protect a battery from a runaway alternator.
For about a year I had my voltage regulator intermittently fail,
allowing high voltages into the system. The Nucholls "crowbar"
overvoltage system handled it so well I didn't get around to fixing
it for quite a while. I finally replaced the regulator with a Key
West which solved the problem. I built Bob's "simple" Rotax schematic
which didn't have any of the essential bus stuff, but if I was going
to fly at night or IFR (I do neither) I probably would.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
At 08:35 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
>The 582 is water cooled - in your experience does it make any difference to
>use the water cooled 2-stroke oil or the air cooled 2-stroke oil for
>the 582 engine ?
Cecil,
See: http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm for
the reason most people use this oil.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
At 03:01 PM 12/6/2009, you wrote:
>What would worry me most is the possibility that lead is plating on your
>main roller bearings. If you get a serious build up of lead there it could
>cause a seizure... in flight! Additives the scavenge lead only work when
>the fuel is burned so they will not protect your lower end. They should
>however help keep your plugs from fouling.
I don't know if I'd worry too much about it. I've run nothing but
100LL through my 582 for 400 hours using Decalin scavenger and don't
seem to be suffering for it.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me (New subject?) |
At 05:16 PM 12/6/2009, you wrote:
>But at least now we are on the topic of e gas.
OK guys. It's time for a reminder to CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE when you
change the subject. The recent "Kitfox 3" thread probably set a
record for the number of threads under one subject and this one's
headed that way. Please change the subject line when you change the
subject so it keeps our archives neat and tidy and useful.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
Mark, I'd be the last one to say I was current on oil technology. I have
never heard of water cooled vs air cooled 2 stroke oil. I've heard of premix
vs injector 2 stroke oil. I have used AMSOIL 100 to 1 premix in everything;
weed whips, Kohler ultralite engine, air cooled and watercooled dirt bikes,
aircooled snowmobiles, chainsaws, and lawnmowers for 30 years and swear by
it for premix. What air cooled or watercooled oil are you talking about?
I've been on this list for 2 years and your the 1st one to mention water vs
air cooled 2 stroke oil. Im always willing to learn.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc@wildblue.net>wrote:
> Mark,
>
> You say you are using 2-stroke oil for air cooled engines.
> The 582 is water cooled - in your experience does it make any difference to
> use the *water* cooled 2-stroke oil or the *air* cooled 2-stroke oil for
> the 582 engine ?
>
> Cecil in North Idaho
> Kitfox IV 1050 582 C box GSC prop
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Mark Napier (napierm) <napierm@cisco.com>wrote:
>
>> napierm@cisco.com>
>>
>> Hey James,
>>
>> I ran 200 hours on a 582 with the HACMan. It works pretty well. Be
>> advised that one way to lower your EGT's is by increasing the pitch of
>> the prop. Mine turned about 5800 static. Only problem I had with it
>> was the supplied barbs didn't hold the lines very well so I replaced
>> them with something a little better. Same with the plastic clamps.
>> Just use 2 turns of safety wire instead. To get a little more
>> adjustment range out of the HACMan I put in a "vacuum restrictor"
>> orifice (drilled out with a #40 drill bit) in the air sense line coming
>> from the air cleaner. If you do that then go up one size on your main
>> jets.
>>
>> Also, the #55 idle jets that come with the carbs are too big. Replace
>> them with #45 and the engine will idle much better. Before I changed
>> mine out the motor would often quit on final approach and tended to foul
>> up on the ground. The iridium plugs help some too.
>>
>> About avgas: I stuck my rings and had the engine sag on me during a
>> take-off run. It just plain quit taxing back. Fortunately I aborted
>> but 10 seconds later would have been over the trees with few options.
>> The inside of my engine looked like it was power coated white. Piston
>> tops, heads, exhaust system, all of them looked like they had just come
>> out of the paint shop and the cylinders were scratched. When I called
>> South Mississippi to describe the problem, he said "Let me guess, the
>> inside of your motor looks like it was painted white." This was at ~180
>> hours with mostly running car gas but getting avgas at stops cross
>> country flights. The oil was Pennsoil 2-stroke for air cooled engines.
>> Maybe the lead scavengers or other oils would do better, I can't say.
>> Now I can't buy car gas w/o alcohol but all things considered I would
>> rather replace my tanks than feed the engine on a steady diet of lead.
>>
>> Charging system: The engine is only good for about 10 amps. For
>> instance, I could run the radio, strobes, intercom and still put a
>> couple of amps into the battery. However nav lights put me into the
>> red. Fortunately I almost never needed the nav lights! I used the
>> odyssey 625 battery with good results.
>>
>>
>> FWIW,
>>
>> Mark Napier
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Time: 06:00:34 PM PST US
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: EGTs are killing me
>> From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>>
>>
>> Somebody with a good working knowledge of the inside of a Bing 54 PLEASE
>> HELP ME.
>> Lets start at the beginning, as temps started to drop below about 55-60f
>> I
>> started having EGT trouble and I started reading up and doing some
>> adjustments.
>> The needle jet, jet needle, and up until yesterday the main jet were
>> stock.
>> I installed the HACman which comes with 180 main jets and I purchased
>> but did
>> not install the next size up of needle jets, 2.74 I think. I read that
>> going
>> up a needle jet size could cool off the mid RPMs but I wanted to work
>> with
>> the HACman before I made any more adjustments.
>>
>> So today I had the HACman full rich for all but a couple minutes of the
>> flight
>> when I leaned it just to make sure it worked properly. Temp was 32f and
>> PA was
>> 500'. Climbing at 62-6500 yielded 1125-1150 and cruise at 5800 was 1175
>> as
>> long as the prop was loaded, any decent and it headed for 1200. I went
>> to adjust
>> the needle and found that it was actually on the bottom ring, tho one
>> that
>> I am pretty sure is not supposed to be used for a setting so I actually
>> took
>> it back up to the third ring from the top just to see if it was a case
>> of too
>> far in the right direction is no better and nothing improved.
>> According to the
>> chart I have seen I should be running the 165 main jet with stock
>> needles at
>> all temperatures at this altitude but it is obviously not working.
>>
>> Should I install the 2.74 needle jets? Might this fix the hi temps? I
>> have a
>> new prop on the way that is bigger and that should help a little but not
>> when
>> it is unloaded. What adjustments do needles make, is there a better
>> needle for
>> my situation? Where I am the temps often swing 25-30 degrees through
>> the day
>> and I cannot chase these EGTs.
>>
>> --------
>> James
>> Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
>> The ink is still drying on my new certificate
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276401#276401
>> * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
>> omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com
>> http:/r generous support!
>> ronics List Features Navigator to browse
>> s.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> =============
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
napierm(at)cisco.com wrote:
> Hey James, ... all of them looked like they had just come
> out of the paint shop and the cylinders were scratched.
This has me a little concerned. So they said that this was due to the lead? I
really need to find a solution soon, I do not want to land off field for any
reason. The HACman came with a tube inserted into the barb that goes into the
air filter. It also comes with 180 main jets, 3 steps up from stock.
stokesc(at)wildblue.net wrote:
> Mark,
>
> You say you are using 2-stroke oil for air cooled engines.
> The 582 is water cooled - in your experience does it make any difference to
use the water cooled 2-stroke oil or the air cooled 2-stroke oil for the 582 engine
?
>
>
My buddy who has many thousand hours behind and in front of 2 strokes told me to
use the air cooled 2 stroke oil because even though it is water cooled it burns
like an air cooled as far as temps go. It is much higher in performance then
what the water cooled 2 stroke oil is meant for.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276755#276755
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: EGTs are killing me |
Oils.
Water cooled 2 stroke oil is classified as TCW3 which is an outboard rating.
Outboards run with a constant supply of water ( coolant from 32 F to about 90
F ) Out Rotax operating temps for coolant are 140 to 180f approx.
aircooled oil works but I will say so does Skidoo oil or any oil that bears the
API-TC classification.
http://www.cfisher.com/oildebate.html
Good reading here as well
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=46
Simple engines but some have to make them so tough.
Dave
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276766#276766
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Leaded gasoline and two stroke oil recommendation |
On Tue, December 8, 2009 3:33 pm, WurlyBird wrote:
clip clip
> My buddy who has many thousand hours behind and in front of 2 strokes told me
to use
> the air cooled 2 stroke oil because even though it is water cooled it burns like
an
> air cooled as far as temps go. It is much higher in performance then what the
water
> cooled 2 stroke oil is meant for.
In the tests that Lockwood did with Rotax and Pennzoil-Quaker State it looks to
me
like there is little difference between the Outboard formulation (water cooled)
and
the Air cooled formulation:
<http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm> (link courtesy of Guy)
Both performed much better than a mineral oil or synthetic in comparison. Their
tests
were done using premix 50:1 with premium unleaded gasoline (no alcohol). They pointed
out that the results would likely have been better using a synthetic with a leaner
(100:1) premix but were concerned about corrosion due to the minimal amount of
residual oil left on bearing surfaces when the engine was not running for extended
periods asis often the case with airplanes left sitting in hangars for days or
even
longer at a time.
As I understand it, fouling that occurs on the piston rings will reduce the conductive
heat transfer coefficient between the piston and the cylinder wall causing the
piston
to be too hot. Also fouling on the upper surface of the piston and in the cylinder
head effectively raises the compression ratio which could lead to detonation and
consequently severe engine damage. Lead in gasoline causes more deposits and it
seems
to me that two strokes are more vulnerable to damage due to these deposits. There
are
additives that can be used to help with this problem and probably you should carry
enough to treat the Avgas you have to buy on a cross country trip.
Those Lockwood/Pennzoil tests didn't compare their product to other formulations
so I
would say they are probably not the only choice but appear to be satisfactory two
stroke oils for Rotax engines.
One of our list members, "Leonard Perry" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com> has a great deal
of
experience with Rotax two strokes in airplanes and in snowmobiles and that is in
Alaska. He has recommended and uses a Citgo two stroke oil. Besides being good,
it
also offers price advantage.
Here's the reference sheet for SUPERGARD Sea & Snow 2-Cycle Engine Oil which is
a
synthetic blend. Use when TC-W3 oils are not recommended.
<http://www.docs.citgo.com/msds_pi/10008.pdf>
I think Lenny uses SUPERGARD Air Cooled 2-Cycle Engine Oil.
SUPERGARD Air Cooled is a premium performance lubricant designed for use in all
air-cooled two stroke cycle engines.
<http://www.docs.citgo.com/msds_pi/10009.pdf>
I am inclined to use one of those simply because Lenny said so. I would consider
getting an anti-lead fouling additive to mix with Avgas (100LL) when you must use
it.
Many are sold with the TCP designation which originally stood for tricresylphospate.
I
believe the toxicity is so high that it is no longer marketed but functional
substitutes are still called TCP. Hopefully Lenny will comment to verify what I've
said.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
"Great nations which fail to meet their responsibilities are consigned
to the dust bin of history. We grew from that small, weak republic
which had as its assets spirit, optimism, faith in God and an
unshakeable belief that free men and women could govern themselves
wisely. We became the leader of the free world, an example for all
those who cherish freedom. If we are to continue to be that example --
if we are to preserve our own freedom -- we must understand those who
would dominate us and deal with them with determination."
-- Ronald Reagan
"Honor, justice, and humanity, forbid us tamely to surrender that
freedom which we received from our gallant ancestors, and which our
innocent posterity have a right to receive from us. We cannot endure
the infamy and guilt of resigning succeeding generations to that
wretchedness which inevitably awaits them if we basely entail
hereditary bondage on them."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of the Causes and Necessities of
Taking up Arms, 6 July 1775
"American conservatives are those who seek to conserve our nation's
First Principles, those who advocate for individual liberty,
constitutional limits on government and the judiciary, and the
promotion of free enterprise, strong national defense and
traditional American values."
-- Mark Alexander - Publisher, PatriotPost.US
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the
support of Paul.
-- George Bernard Shaw
"With respect to the two words 'general welfare,' I have always
regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with
them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a
metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a
host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."
--James Madison
"I am commonly opposed to those who modestly assume the rank of
champions of liberty, and make a very patriotic noise about the people.
It is the stale artifice which has duped the world a thousand times,
and yet, though detected, it is still successful. I love liberty as
well as anybody. I am proud of it, as the true title of our people to
distinction above others; but ... I would guard it by making the laws
strong enough to protect it."
-- Fisher Ames, letter to George Richard Minot, 1789
"Never in the history of the world has there been a situation so bad
that the government can't make it worse."
-- Unknown
"We, the members of the New Republican Party, believe that the
preservation and enhancement of the values that strengthen and
protect individual freedom, family life, communities and
neighborhoods and the liberty of our beloved nation should be at the
heart of any legislative or political program presented to the
American people."
-- Ronald Wilson Reagan (1911 - 2004)
"Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against
absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the
sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call
faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a
wreck."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Message 10
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| Subject: | Poem with names from the past |
Some names from the past.
> Ok guys,
>
> I wrote this for fun a few years back at this time of year. Many of you
will
> remember the names of those listed who are no longer on the list or with
us.
> I simply chose 33 names from the last postings to the list that December.
I
> personally miss seeing Mike Harter's postings.
>
>
> Christmas Eve in Melbourne, Florida
>
> By John P. Marzluf
>
> 'Twas the night before Christmas and all through the town,
> No noses were frozen, no snow on the ground.
> No Melniks in flannels were tucked into bed,
> They all wore their headsets and flight suits instead.
> With Laura in curlers and Danny's ramp cap,
> They had just settled down for a long winter's nap.
>
> When out on the driveway there arose such a clatter,
> Danny sprang to the observation deck to see what was the matter.
> The moon was aglow on this clear winter's night,
> He checked the winds and noted twenty miles of clear sight.
> Then what on the pavement before his eyes did appear?
> But whole squadrons of Kitfoxes all pulling a giant sled in the rear!
>
> He called for his Zacky to make a count of 'em all 'for they go,
> But the young lad was online to, can you guess, Lego?
> He called out for Laura to come see all models 1,2,3,4,5 and newer,
> When suddenly up on that sleigh he saw, could that be Joe Brewer?
> Joe jumped from his mount and gave a wee chuckle,
> He was wearing Bermuda shorts and a Kitfox Lite buckle.
>
> He went straight to his work and unloaded for Dan's neighbor a kit crate,
> Pulled his flight log out and shouted: "That makes two hundred and eight!"
> Then back to the cockpit in a hurry he went,
> Scanned his team, "Is Harter's right flapperon bent?"
> "Clear all props!" he yelled loud as thunder,
> And they all fired up first lick, over three hundred in number!
>
> "Ready for take off!" He pulled out THE LIST,
> "On Czernin, on Ducar, on Jones, and Morrise!
> On Shumaker, Oakley, Pearsall, and Bennitae!
> On Graichen, Smythe, Shiple, and Fitt!
> On Harrington, Jr, Lynch, and Cygrit!
> On Kerr, Gordillo, Rice, and Franz!
> On Robertson, Hays, Roy, and Monse!
> On Liles, Lovern, Puls, and Hottle!
> On Doerwald, Robertson, Hausding, and Krottle!"
> They all flew away too fast, but you get the gist.
>
> Departure control heard Joe exclaim as he flew out of sight,
> "Merry Christmas Kitfoxers and to all a good flight!"
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276771#276771
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| Subject: | Choke Cable Elbow |
I've always found the choke operation on my plane to be kind of stiff. I noticed
recently that the 912 diagrams show a metal 90 degree elbow where the choke
cable enters the carb. My installation is missing this piece. I can't seem to
find where to purchase it. Anyone know where I can buy this piece?
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276775#276775
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Choke Cable Elbow |
CPS
BOB
--- On Tue, 12/8/09, wingnut <wingnut@spamarrest.com> wrote:
From: wingnut <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Choke Cable Elbow
I've always found the choke operation on my plane to be kind of stiff. I no
ticed recently that the 912 diagrams show a metal 90 degree elbow where the
choke cable enters the carb. My installation is missing this piece. I can'
t seem to find where to purchase it. Anyone know where I can buy this piece
?
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276775#276775
le, List Admin.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Washed gas and Leaded gas |
So here is the new topic on my mind;
First and foremost, has anyone here have any FIRST HAND experience with washing
ethanol out of fuel? I would like to hear about it.
I have read here and on other sites about simply adding water and then draining
off the ethanol free fuel but it just sounds wrong to me.
I am planning on replacing my fuel tanks with E compatible ones but I am not ready
yet because I have not allocated the cash first of all but also I am still
concerned about the down time so I am going to wait until deeper into winter
when I will not be too upset about not flying for a few weeks. When I first started
to run into the issue with no ethanol free fuel in my area I was told that
the plug fouling was the only major issue with 100LL but that is not sounding
like the case right now. I am probably 40 hours into running straight 100LL
and I am wondering if I am putting my engine (and butt) at risk. So I really
need to figure out a solution and preferably by Saturday.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop
The ink is still drying on my new certificate
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276778#276778
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| Subject: | Re: Choke Cable Elbow |
CPS = California Power Systems?
Only thing I could find there was this:
http://www.rotaxparts.net/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1342
That part looks like it's exiting the top of the carb. On the 912, the elbow is
on the side of the carb. Is the part interchangeable? Can this be confirmed?
bw12345(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:
> CPS
> BOB
>
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276787#276787
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