---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/25/10: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:50 AM - Ethanol Issue (Catz631@aol.com) 2. 10:18 AM - Leading edge to center of wheel. (Clint Bazzill) 3. 10:30 AM - Re: Leading edge to center of wheel. (Benny Svien) 4. 11:34 AM - Re: Leading edge to center of wheel. (kirk hull) 5. 02:51 PM - Re: Leading edge to center of wheel. (Patrick Reilly) 6. 07:34 PM - Apologies all around (Marco Menezes) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:29 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Issue There wasn't anything on the Kitfox list so thought I would put this on fo r your reading pleasure.( I also put it on the Rotax list) It applies to British cars but ,I think much of it to our airplanes also. Dick Maddux Fox 4 Milton,Fl The Ethanol Issue Gasoline containing ethanol has become the new standard for fuel, and it presents a new set of challenges and work for classic car owners. You=99ve got to be vigilant now to ensure a good running engine and prevent damage to your cherished car. What=99s the problem, you ask? Ethanol, made from corn or grain, is added to gasoline to oxygenate it, replacing the older additive, MTBE. Names for gasoline mixed with ethanol include E10, gasohol, corn fuel, alcohol fuel, and reformulated or renewable fuel. The key problem is that ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere. In fact, fuel with 10 percent ethanol absorbs up to 50 times more water than standard gasoline. Older gas tanks found in many classic cars vent to the atmosphere, increasing the likelihood that moisture will be absorbed into the gas tank at a rapid pace. The end result of water in the fuel is phase separation. The fuel separates into two distinct layers: a thick layer of gasoline mixed with a little ethanol on top, and a thinner layer on the bottom consisting of water mixed with most of the ethanol. And it doesn=99t take much water for this to happen =94 phase separation occurs in a gallon of 10 percent ethanol blend with just 3.8 teaspoons of water. Fuel Phase Separation Problems What happens to your car and it=99s performance when water causes fuel phase separation? Reduced fuel longevity: A gasoline/ethanol blend absorbs water until it triggers phase separation. The blend has a 90-day product life in a closed tank, but lasts just 30 to 45 days in a vented tank often found in classic cars. With 10 percent ethanol blends, owners are supposed to replace the fuel in vented tanks about once a month by driving or draining, taking into consideration the humidity in the atmosphere and temperatures. Lower fuel octane: The ethanol in a gasoline blend provides some of the octane rating. When phase separation occurs, the octane rating of the remaining fuel can drop by as much as three points. Poor engine performance: The fuel pump could easily pick up a slug of the water/ethanol slurry at the bottom of the tank, interrupting the flow of gas to the engine. This will cause the engine to miss, run rough and possibly stall altogether. Corrosion and rust: Water in the bottom of the fuel tank and inside the fuel lines will cause corrosion and rust, and the solvent properties of the ethanol will loosen that up, along with bits of sediment and deposits. The resulting debris floating in the fuel could clog fuel filters, fuel lines and carburetor float valves. Specific Parts Affected by Ethanol Fuel tank: Ethanol could dislodge sediment and deposits in older gas tanks and fuel lines. Loose debris in the fuel could clog the fuel filter, or cause engine flooding if the carburetor float valve sticks. Fuel pump: Rubber diaphragms inside the fuel pump may have problems with ethanol exposure. Carburetor float valve: Float valve needles on early cars were brass, and these were replaced with plastic needles or brass needles with Viton (a specific type of rubber) tips. Ethanol can cause the plastic needles to swell up and stick either open or shut, which causes either massive flooding or starves the carburetor for fuel. Some owners have resorted to shaving down the plastic needle to get it to ride smoothly and seat properly. Instead, you can install an all-brass needle and seat, or a Vitontipped needle if available for your car model, which are not affected by lower levels of ethanol. Carburetor floats: The Zenith-Stromberg floats found specifically/ only in the TR4 and 4A made of foam covered with a skin may deteriorate when exposed to ethanol. Other plastic floats, like those used by SU, may also be affected. Hoses: Ethanol could dry out or deteriorate rubber hoses. Seals: Ethanol could shrink, swell or deteriorate seals, depending on the material. Gaskets: Ethanol may deteriorate the rubber in rubber/cork composite gaskets. Fiber washers and gaskets are not affected. Aluminum and aluminum alloy parts: Aluminum and alloys fare fine with 10 percent ethanol, but are damaged by 25 percent ethanol. Avoiding Ethanol Problems Run your engine on fresh fuel from a major supplier in a location with lots of traffic. Add fuel stabilizers when you put gas in your car to lengthen the life span of the fuel. Buy higher-octane gasoline to be certain your engine gets the minimum octane necessary for good performance. Keep track of the dates you buy fuel, how much you bought, and how much is in the tank when left sitting for a period of time. Keep a log book for reference. If you have a closed tank, make sure it is truly closed. Listen for a hiss of air escaping when you take the gas cap off after driving. Test your gas tank periodically to see if water is accumulating or phase separation has occurred. Treat accordingly. If you don=99t have a fuel filter before the carburetor (many British cars only have a screen), consider installing one to catch loosened rust and sediments from the gas tank before it clogs engine components. Moss offers one with a glass bowl for at-a-glance inspection, yet it features a period-correct look (Fuel Pressure Regulator/ Filter #377-435). Check your fuel filter often. Consider adding a second fuel filter between the tank and the fuel pump to protect the fuel pump from damage from loose debris from the tank (Moss part #377-310). Keep engine parts well lubricated to counteract the solvent effect of ethanol. Regularly inspect all fuel system components, seals and connectors from the tank to the carburetor. Ensure there are no leaks and the system is in good shape. BM 1. Use a fuel stabilizer when you put gas in your British car. Most of us don=99t drive our classic cars on a daily basis, so the short gasoline/ethanol life of 30 to 45 days in a vented tank, or 90 days in a closed tank, is a problem. In order to extend the life of your car=99s fuel and delay the phase separation that will eventually occur, you can add a fuel stabilizer to your tank every time you put fuel into it if you=99re not sure you=99ll use the gas within the product life span. 220-360 E-Xtend Ethanol Gasoline Treatment (8 oz.) (Note: There are a number of products on the market. We are compiling a list to distribute to BCA members. Let me know if you have any products to add to the list) E-Xtend doubles the fuel=99s life to about 60 days in a vented tank, and about 180 days in a closed tank. It also contains antioxidants and degumming agents to fight sludge and prevent resin/gum deposits in the fuel tank. As a result, the fuel filter stays cleaner longer and the engine runs better. For fuel with 10 percent ethanol, the ratio is one ounce of E-Xtend for every six gallons of fuel, so one 8-ounce bottle will treat 48 gallons of fuel. The longneck bottle makes it easy to pour into the filler neck. 2. Test your tank periodically for water presence and phase separation. When you=99re not driving your car and putting fresh gas into the tank, or after the car has been sitting over the winter, you can test your tank to determine if water is present or if phase separation has occurred. One test method is loosening the fuel tank=99s drain plug and capturing a small sample of fuel from the bottom of the tank in a clear container for inspection. Since water collects at the bottom of the tank, you should be able to see the two layers if water is present=94a pink layer of gasoline on the top, and a clear or white layer of water and ethanol on the bottom. It looks a lot like unmixed salad dressing. You can use a test kit on the drain sample if it appears mixed up. If your tank construction allows a dipstick (a dowel or rod works well) to go from the filler neck all the way to the bottom of the tank, you can use a test kit for easier and more reliable results. (This test method won=99t work on car models with a bent filler neck unless you can figure out a flexible dipstick that hits the tank bottom.) 220-362 Water Probe Indicator Simply apply the Water Probe Indicator on the end of the dipstick; it turns red where there is water in the fuel tank. For example, if there=99s a half-inch of water in the tank, the stick shows a half-inch of red. 3. Add an emulsifier to treat separated fuel layers. If you find water in the tank and phase separation has occurred, you can add an emulsifier to the fuel to remix the gasoline, ethanol and water. (Note that if there=99s an excessive amount of water, you may have to drain the contaminated fuel from the tank.) 220-355 E-Zorb Ethanol Gasoline Water Remover (16 oz.) E-Zorb emulsifies the water/ethanol layer at the bottom of the gas tank created by fuel phase separation. The water and ethanol mixes back into the rest of the fuel in the tank. The water passes with the gasoline through the engine and is released as steam. The fuel regains the octane (up to three points) that was lost when most of the ethanol separated from the gasoline. The ratio is one ounce of E-Zorb for 20 gallons of gasoline/ethanol. The one-pint (16 oz.) bottle will treat 320 gallons of fuel. You=99ll have to agitate the fuel and emulsifier in the tank by rocking the car from side to side, and bouncing it up and down. Make sure your suspension can handle this! Be sure to check out the Moss tech video on Dealing With Ethanol at mossmotors.com. Ethanol Solutions www. b r i t i s h m o t o r i n g . n e t British motoring 29 301 British motoring Wi n t e r 2 0 1 0 F hoW-to Trying to decide whether you should keep your fuel tank ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:02 AM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: Kitfox-List: Leading edge to center of wheel. Hi=2C I need to know measurement from leading edge of wing to center of wheel on Model IV with Grove gear. Clint ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:47 AM PST US From: Benny Svien Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Leading edge to center of wheel. Tail wheel or nose wheel From: clint_bazzill@hotmail.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Leading edge to center of wheel. Hi=2C I need to know measurement from leading edge of wing to center of wheel on Model IV with Grove gear. Clint _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:34:32 AM PST US From: "kirk hull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Leading edge to center of wheel. Assuming you are looking for the arm of the mains after installing the grove gear for a weight and balance calc it is 0 on my fox You might want to check by leveling the a/c then dropping a string with a weight in it from the leading edge and measuring to the center of the wheel _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Leading edge to center of wheel. Hi, I need to know measurement from leading edge of wing to center of wheel on Model IV with Grove gear. Clint ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Leading edge to center of wheel. From: Patrick Reilly Clint. By leveling the plane, Kirk means put it in level flight attitude. That would be the door sill level, fore to aft. Then drop a plumb bob to the floor from wing leading edge and center of wheel.. That would be the only way to do it for any plane and it will differ with the different gear. You need to do that for any weight and balance calculations. It's a hell of alot better than taking someone elses figures for their plane. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:33 PM, kirk hull wrote: > Assuming you are looking for the arm of the mains after installing the > grove gear for a weight and balance calc it is 0 on my fox > > > You might want to check by leveling the a/c then dropping a string with a > weight in it from the leading edge and measuring to the center of the wheel > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Clint Bazzill > *Sent:* Monday, January 25, 2010 12:15 PM > *To:* Kitfox list > *Subject:* Kitfox-List: Leading edge to center of wheel. > > > Hi, > > I need to know measurement from leading edge of wing to center of wheel on > Model IV with Grove gear. > > Clint > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List* > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:19 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Kitfox-List: Apologies all around I sincerely apologize to everyone on the list and to Dave in particular for -my rude, impolitic remark-made last Friday. It came at the end of a ve ry long day and somehow escaped the filter between my brain and fingertips. I was-the A--hole. :-) - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch - do not archive=0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.