Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:54 AM - Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 (dave)
2. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 (Guy Buchanan)
3. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 (Don Hudgeon)
4. 10:20 AM - Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 (rawheels)
5. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 (Guy Buchanan)
6. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 (Lynn Matteson)
7. 01:27 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 (Lowell Fitt)
8. 10:10 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 (Don Hudgeon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 |
You should be static fuel flow in level flight and even climb at at least 30 litres
per hour without a fuel pump at all.
Rebuild kit a great idea every few years. I would make sure you get Mikuni kit
and not the cheap ones.
866-418-4164 toll free.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
Awesome *New Forum *
http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294146#294146
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 |
At 08:30 PM 4/13/2010, you wrote:
>Seems like a really important piece of equipment to be such a weak
>link. I'll order my rebuild kit tonight and see how it
>goes. Probably really consider adding an electric back-up too.
Ryan,
I do the yearly rebuild because I don't have a back-up fuel
pump. (My back-up is gravity feed, which is entirely hypothetical
since I've never tried it.) I rebuild on the theory that the pump
involves fatigue inducing behavior in the diaphragm and check valves
and therefore will wear out at some point. However I'm willing to bet
the real MTBF is probably something like years. :-D
Interestingly there have been a series of articles in the
recent EAA magazines that debunk my methodology and show that the
riskiest time for flight hardware is just after a rebuild or
maintenance. The author recommends that instead of replacement or
rebuild you rely on non-destructive component testing to identify
degradation prior to failure. To do this for a fuel pump would
require some kind of performance test, or better yet a reliable and
accurate fuel pressure meter on which you could see any degradation.
Of course, then you have to have some kind of test for the pressure meter. . .
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 |
Hello Guy
I have a Vixen c/w 912 and am considering a electric backup pump. Do you
have any suggestions on make & model and best way to plumb it in. Or am I
just being overly cautious because there is certainly adequate gravity flow
unless the tanks are very low and the climb angle excessive.
Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
Don
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> wrote:
>
> At 08:30 PM 4/13/2010, you wrote:
>
>> Seems like a really important piece of equipment to be such a weak link.
>> I'll order my rebuild kit tonight and see how it goes. Probably really
>> consider adding an electric back-up too.
>>
>
> Ryan,
> I do the yearly rebuild because I don't have a back-up fuel pump.
> (My back-up is gravity feed, which is entirely hypothetical since I've never
> tried it.) I rebuild on the theory that the pump involves fatigue inducing
> behavior in the diaphragm and check valves and therefore will wear out at
> some point. However I'm willing to bet the real MTBF is probably something
> like years. :-D
> Interestingly there have been a series of articles in the recent EAA
> magazines that debunk my methodology and show that the riskiest time for
> flight hardware is just after a rebuild or maintenance. The author
> recommends that instead of replacement or rebuild you rely on
> non-destructive component testing to identify degradation prior to failure.
> To do this for a fuel pump would require some kind of performance test, or
> better yet a reliable and accurate fuel pressure meter on which you could
> see any degradation. Of course, then you have to have some kind of test for
> the pressure meter. . .
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 |
Don,
I'm by no means an expert (especially since I asked the original question on this
thread), but it seems that through all my web searching and forum asking on
this topic that the Facet Solid-State Fuel Pumps are by far the most common used
for back-up purposes; 2.5-4.5 PSI pump for the 503/582 & the 4-6 PSI version
for the 912 (Although some debate exists on the second because of a 5.8 PSI
limit listed in the 912 manual).
Please take a moment and read the last few paragraphs of the article I linked earlier
in this thread from CPS. It explains some of the installation ideas for
a redundant system without going through all of the specifics/opinions on the
web.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294196#294196
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 |
At 09:20 AM 4/14/2010, you wrote:
>I have a Vixen c/w 912 and am considering a electric backup pump. Do
>you have any suggestions on make & model and best way to plumb it
>in. Or am I just being overly cautious because there is certainly
>adequate gravity flow unless the tanks are very low and the climb
>angle excessive.
Don,
I run a 582, but from what I've seen most 912 drivers run a
Facet electric as a backup. I don't know if the 912 is less reliable,
or if 912 drivers simply are more "big airplane" but I don't know of
any that rely exclusively on the engine driven pump. It would be
interesting to know how many 912 fuel pumps have failed. I also don't
know if the 912 fuel pump will allow gravity feed after failure. It
would be cool to find a very-low-loss check valve (one that has no
springs and checks under pressure only) that would allow a gravity
bypass of the fuel pump.
I've seen electric backups installed in series and parallel.
Both have been discussed heavily in the past and you can find a lot
of information in the archives.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 |
Your climb would have to be VERY excessive....something us Jabiru-
powered fliers don't have to worry about. : ) But the real problem
is when you fly with minimal fuel (ask how I know) and then descend
long and steeply.....unless your Kitfox has front ports as well as
rear, in the tanks.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 910.3 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
Countdown to 1000 hrs~89.7 to go(101 days to go)
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Apr 14, 2010, at 12:20 PM, Don Hudgeon wrote:
> Hello Guy
>
> I have a Vixen c/w 912 and am considering a electric backup pump.
> Do you have any suggestions on make & model and best way to plumb
> it in. Or am I just being overly cautious because there is
> certainly adequate gravity flow unless the tanks are very low and
> the climb angle excessive.
> Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
> Don
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 |
I put 906 hours on my first 912 powered Model IV. I had a Facet back-up
that my test pilot suggested be used on initial climb. I did that for a
while, then discontinued the practice. The switch, however was just to the
right of the throttle knob and I could hit it with my thumb without moving
my hand if I thought I needed it. Never had a failure of the engine pump,
nor any symptoms suggesting any problems. I did use the pump once, as
Guy/EAA suggests. It was right after changing out the fuel lines in the
engine compartment and I had cinched the fire sleeve too tight and it
restricted fuel flow through the tube. That was an exciting day as I found
how to make the dreaded 180 back to the runway.
Lowell
Model IV-912 UL build
engine install
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582
>
> At 09:20 AM 4/14/2010, you wrote:
>>I have a Vixen c/w 912 and am considering a electric backup pump. Do you
>>have any suggestions on make & model and best way to plumb it in. Or am I
>>just being overly cautious because there is certainly adequate gravity
>>flow unless the tanks are very low and the climb angle excessive.
>
> Don,
> I run a 582, but from what I've seen most 912 drivers run a Facet
> electric as a backup. I don't know if the 912 is less reliable, or if 912
> drivers simply are more "big airplane" but I don't know of any that rely
> exclusively on the engine driven pump. It would be interesting to know how
> many 912 fuel pumps have failed. I also don't know if the 912 fuel pump
> will allow gravity feed after failure. It would be cool to find a
> very-low-loss check valve (one that has no springs and checks under
> pressure only) that would allow a gravity bypass of the fuel pump.
> I've seen electric backups installed in series and parallel. Both
> have been discussed heavily in the past and you can find a lot of
> information in the archives.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump IV-1200 w/ 582 |
Thanks every one for the quick replies. If I decide to go the "electric
backup" route it seems that Facet has a good variety so as not to exceed the
carb float pressures. Gravity flow should be OK except for extreme low fuel
climb and/or decent. In the meantime I think it best to just maintain good
fuel levels!! Thanks again.
Don
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:19 AM, rawheels <rawheels@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Don,
>
> I'm by no means an expert (especially since I asked the original question
> on this thread), but it seems that through all my web searching and forum
> asking on this topic that the Facet Solid-State Fuel Pumps are by far the
> most common used for back-up purposes; 2.5-4.5 PSI pump for the 503/582 &
> the 4-6 PSI version for the 912 (Although some debate exists on the second
> because of a 5.8 PSI limit listed in the 912 manual).
>
> Please take a moment and read the last few paragraphs of the article I
> linked earlier in this thread from CPS. It explains some of the
> installation ideas for a redundant system without going through all of the
> specifics/opinions on the web.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294196#294196
>
>
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