Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:20 AM - Weight and balance..AOA? (Don G)
2. 08:41 AM - Re: Weight and balance..AOA? (Guy Buchanan)
3. 08:52 AM - Re: Weight and balance..AOA? (Scott DeMeyer)
4. 11:42 AM - Re: Weight and balance..AOA? (Lynn Matteson)
5. 11:44 AM - Re: Weight and balance..AOA? (Lowell Fitt)
6. 12:26 PM - Re: Weight and balance..AOA? (Guy Buchanan)
7. 02:24 PM - Re: Weight and balance..AOA? (Lynn Matteson)
8. 04:04 PM - Re: Weight and balance..AOA? (akflyer)
9. 06:52 PM - IO240 (Jim Gilliatt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Weight and balance..AOA? |
Gents,
I decided to do an updated W&B on my 912 powered Speedster, and have discovered
an aft cg situation...however..upon thinking of over somewhat, I am not sure
I believe it. The plane flies fine. I actually was concerned about the empty weight..which
is why I weighed it.
My question, is in regards to the angle you should weigh this aircraft. do you
weigh with the wing at "0" degrees to the horizon?..in other words...wings perfectly
level fore and aft...or in a flight attitude...which may be a degree or
2 of attack?
I simply raised the tail to an approximate flight atitude by sight, without putting
a level on the wings, and I am concerned now Maybe I should have payed more
attention to this angle.
Tailwheel weight was 60.25 lbs.....total 697. ONly fuel in the header tank behind
the seat.
thx
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300332#300332
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance..AOA? |
At 07:19 AM 6/7/2010, you wrote:
>My question, is in regards to the angle you should weigh this
>aircraft. do you weigh with the wing at "0" degrees to the
>horizon?..in other words...wings perfectly level fore and aft...or
>in a flight attitude...which may be a degree or 2 of attack?
Don,
The CG was designed to be measured with the door sill level.
This puts the wings at some positive angle of attack, but I don't
know what that is. What was your CG measurement? Mine regularly runs
15 - 16" aft of the leading edge.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 500 hrs. and counting
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance..AOA? |
Don, I believe the proper method, at least on my IV is to level the fuselag
e fore/aft and side to side. This is done by placing a level underneath, ju
st behind the landing gear. Then weigh each wheel and go from there. From m
y experience, it does not take much to really throw off the weight on your
tailwheel.
--- On Mon, 6/7/10, Don G <donghe@one-eleven.net> wrote:
From: Don G <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Weight and balance..AOA?
Gents,
I decided to do an updated W&B on my 912 powered Speedster, and have discov
ered an aft cg situation...however..upon thinking of over somewhat, I am no
t sure I believe it. The plane flies fine. I actually was concerned about t
he empty weight..which is why I weighed it.
My question, is in regards to the angle you should weigh this aircraft. do
you weigh with the wing at "0" degrees to the horizon?..in other words...wi
ngs perfectly level fore and aft...or in a flight attitude...which may be a
degree or 2 of attack?
I simply raised the tail to an approximate flight atitude by sight, without
putting a level on the wings, and I am concerned now Maybe I should have p
ayed more attention to this angle.
Tailwheel weight was 60.25 lbs.....total 697.- ONly fuel in the header ta
nk behind the seat.
thx
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300332#300332
le, List Admin.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance..AOA? |
My Speedster w/Jabiru engine (4 cyl) weighed 650, with 43 lbs of that
weight on the rear wheel, and NO fuel anywhere. So you have 47 lbs
more overall weight, with 17.25 lbs of that at the rear
wheel...roughly 1/3 of the difference between the two weights. Unless
I'm wrong in comparing things this way, the tail weight being 1/3 of
the "overall" weight is way too much. And I don't think the 6-8 lbs
of fuel (I'm guessing at the size of your header tank) that close to
the main wheels will throw the tail weight that high. How are my
backyard, shade tree, calculations, Guy?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 968.4 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
Countdown to 1000 hrs~31.6 to go(47 days to go)
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Jun 7, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Scott DeMeyer wrote:
> Don, I believe the proper method, at least on my IV is to level the
> fuselage fore/aft and side to side. This is done by placing a level
> underneath, just behind the landing gear. Then weigh each wheel and
> go from there. From my experience, it does not take much to really
> throw off the weight on your tailwheel.
>
> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Don G <donghe@one-eleven.net> wrote:
>
> From: Don G <donghe@one-eleven.net>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Weight and balance..AOA?
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 7:19 AM
>
>
> Gents,
> I decided to do an updated W&B on my 912 powered Speedster, and
> have discovered an aft cg situation...however..upon thinking of
> over somewhat, I am not sure I believe it. The plane flies fine. I
> actually was concerned about the empty weight..which is why I
> weighed it.
>
> My question, is in regards to the angle you should weigh this
> aircraft. do you weigh with the wing at "0" degrees to the
> horizon?..in other words...wings perfectly level fore and aft...or
> in a flight attitude...which may be a degree or 2 of attack?
> I simply raised the tail to an approximate flight atitude by sight,
> without putting a level on the wings, and I am concerned now Maybe
> I should have payed more attention to this angle.
> Tailwheel weight was 60.25 lbs.....total 697. ONly fuel in the
> header tank behind the seat.
> thx
>
> --------
> Don G.
> Central Illinois
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Luscombe 8A
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewf="http://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http - MATRONICS WEB
> FORUMS ; -Matt Dralle, List Admin=========
>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance..AOA? |
Don,
The airplane should be leveled fore and aft and side to side using the belly
tubes below the cockpit or the bottom door sills. With the airplane in this
position, the weights of the mains and tailwheel would give the wts. needed
to calculate the CG.
Lowell
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Don G" <donghe@one-eleven.net>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 7:19 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Weight and balance..AOA?
>
> Gents,
> I decided to do an updated W&B on my 912 powered Speedster, and have
> discovered an aft cg situation...however..upon thinking of over somewhat,
> I am not sure I believe it. The plane flies fine. I actually was concerned
> about the empty weight..which is why I weighed it.
>
> My question, is in regards to the angle you should weigh this aircraft. do
> you weigh with the wing at "0" degrees to the horizon?..in other
> words...wings perfectly level fore and aft...or in a flight
> attitude...which may be a degree or 2 of attack?
> I simply raised the tail to an approximate flight atitude by sight,
> without putting a level on the wings, and I am concerned now Maybe I
> should have payed more attention to this angle.
> Tailwheel weight was 60.25 lbs.....total 697. ONly fuel in the header
> tank behind the seat.
> thx
>
> --------
> Don G.
> Central Illinois
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Luscombe 8A
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300332#300332
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance..AOA? |
At 11:34 AM 6/7/2010, you wrote:
>Unless
>I'm wrong in comparing things this way, the tail weight being 1/3 of
>the "overall" weight is way too much. And I don't think the 6-8 lbs
>of fuel (I'm guessing at the size of your header tank) that close to
>the main wheels will throw the tail weight that high. How are my
>backyard, shade tree, calculations, Guy?
Almost Lynn,
Don's tail weight was 8.7% of total, not 1/3. Your's was
6.6%, so yes, Don will probably want to re-level the plane more
expertly. The angle makes a significant difference in "tailwheel
weight", since the wheels are so close to the CG. Indeed, if you tilt
far enough forward you can make the "tailwheel weight" zero! (Don't
try this with the engine running, though.) ;-)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 500 hrs. and counting
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance..AOA? |
Guy-
What I was trying to compare was his tailwheel weight in comparison
to his amount of weight that exceeded my weight. His total weight is
+47 (over mine), of which 17 (more than mine) is at the rear. I was
just trying to give a rough example of how comparing the "overages"
could show how he is tail heavy. The bottom line of course, is that
the plane must be level, or all the math in the world won't help. : )
I landed the other day with just about "zero tailwheel weight",
thanks to those Matco brakes. Next time I'll slow a bit more on
approach. I thought I was gonna loop it when I finally turned about
20 feet from the road, at a pretty good clip. Thanks also to my Grove
gear for putting up with a sharp turn. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 968.8 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
Countdown to 1000 hrs~31.2 to go(47 days to go)
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
do not archive
On Jun 7, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 11:34 AM 6/7/2010, you wrote:
>> Unless
>> I'm wrong in comparing things this way, the tail weight being 1/3 of
>> the "overall" weight is way too much. And I don't think the 6-8 lbs
>> of fuel (I'm guessing at the size of your header tank) that close to
>> the main wheels will throw the tail weight that high. How are my
>> backyard, shade tree, calculations, Guy?
>
> Almost Lynn,
> Don's tail weight was 8.7% of total, not 1/3. Your's was
> 6.6%, so yes, Don will probably want to re-level the plane more
> expertly. The angle makes a significant difference in "tailwheel
> weight", since the wheels are so close to the CG. Indeed, if you
> tilt far enough forward you can make the "tailwheel weight" zero!
> (Don't try this with the engine running, though.) ;-)
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 500 hrs. and counting
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and balance..AOA? |
if the KF IV is anything like the Avid, you can run the CG back to 18 or 19" and
it will fly better.. Dean Wilson did not recommend stalling without full flaps
at CG's aft of 21". This was per a phone conversations with him last year
when I was trying to get rid of some of my up trim on the elevator.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=300414#300414
Message 9
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I started my engine for the first time today; what a thrill. I have
been building for some time, and many gave up on me, but I persisted,
and am close to flying. Today's event, however, was somewhat dampened
by the fact that I couldn't keep it going. It has been sitting for
several years, so the factory gave me some things to do to overcome that
delay. Is there anyone out there in 240 land that can give me some
tips? The battery is way down, and I am charging it as we speak. I
will also contact the factory to see if they have any suggestions.
Thanks,
Jim Gilliatt S7 jim.gilliatt@att.net
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