Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline (Noel Loveys)
2. 09:28 AM - Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline (Noel Loveys)
3. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline (paul wilson)
4. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline (Noel Loveys)
5. 09:41 AM - Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline (Noel Loveys)
6. 10:46 AM - Re: water temps revisited (malpass)
7. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline (larry huntley)
8. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline (Lynn Matteson)
9. 12:42 PM - Re: bolt size needed please! (Rical26)
10. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline (larry huntley)
11. 08:23 PM - Re: Re: water temps revisited (Patrick Reilly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
Sounds to me you are doing things the right way... if you have to fly on
ethanol fuel. Personally I=99m not at all fussy about having a
=9Cfilter=9D in front of a fuel pump.
I also have a little beef with the word =9Cresistant=9D No
one has been able to give me any definition for it in this context.
Changing the tubes every year sounds like a great idea.
In my local there are plenty of places to put a float plane down but
there are also very few places to do forced approaches once you leave
highway system. For that reason I wouldn=99t feel right flying
with hooch in my gas. Luckily for me we don=99t grow corn here so
there are no distilleries here that means for the next two years there
will be no gasohol either. Our prime minister has passed a federal law
requiring all service stations to sell at least 10% ethanol fuel in all
pumps by the end of 2010. I have no idea how he is planning on getting
the stuff here. Two years ago an oil company tried shipping ethanol
laced fuel here... it ended up with having to rebuild the ship. I
expect that if the really want ot try it here they will have to employ
road trains... oops they=99re not legal in Canada and local
truckers refuse to carry ethanol fuel.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ctmcdowell@comcast.net
Sent: July 9, 2010 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline
I've been flying a Rotax 503 for 10 years now, using 10% ethanol
gasoline with no problems. I have a Polyproplene fuel tank. Aircraft
Spruce sel'ls the 'Blue' fuel line that is Alcohol resistant. I change
these lines every year along with the fuel filter.Cheap insurance. I
fly between 25 to 50hr a year. I also had an authorized Rotax mechanic
tear the engine down to inspect the entire engine and to replace ALL
organic materials in the engine, Carbs and fuel filter with alcohol
resistant materials. 500hrs and no issues. I also syphon out all the
fuel if it sits in the tank for more than two weeks. Syphoning out the
tank allows all the small particles in the bottom of the tank to be
drawn out.
Tom McDowell-NJ
EAA-216
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2010 8:42:02 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline
Hi Pete,
If you are running a 912 series engine then Rotax has in writing that
10% ethanol is fine and people use much higher amounts than that around
the world. Just bring your fuel system up to par for the ethanol and
save yourself a lot of time and effort. Ethanol won't hurt your 912
Rotax.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304269#304269
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| Subject: | Removing ethanol from gasoline |
True government makes votes in farm country producing ethanol. Oil
companies then add their profit to the ethanol they have to buy and they
are happy. Too bad the end user has been sold a bill of goods on
ethanol. The bill of goods is it is cheap to produce, there is lots to
have, it is clean to burn and of course it=99s good for the
economy. On the last item when being burnt ethanol gives off less
hydrocarbons than gasoline or diesel fuel per gallon used but if you add
the close to four gallons of diesel fuel burned to create one gallon of
ethanol fuel then it is a lot dirtier.
Some day the leaders of our respective countries will wake up and say,
=9Cthis is wrong=9D, and something will be done about it.
The only way that will happen is if the rank and file citizens of our
countries put the pressure on the feds to cut the subsidies on ethanol
production and change them to subsidies on food production.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco
Menezes
Sent: July 9, 2010 10:49 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Removing ethanol from gasoline
Doesn't have to make sense, Noel. The government and oil companies are
involved.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, Michigan
do not archive
--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
From: Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Removing ethanol from gasoline
How=99s that... Ethanol is added to the gas as it leaves the
distributor... It doesn=99t have to be separated... Just not
added in the first place. The ethanol in fact costs more than 4 times
the cost of the gas to grow and process. That means that gas not
contaminated with ethanol should be considerably cheaper.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco
Menezes
Sent: July 8, 2010 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Removing ethanol from gasoline
NOW I understand why ethanol-free gas costs so much more at the pump!
;-)
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
Hersey, Michigan
do not archive
--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Pete Christensen <pchristensen10@austin.rr.com>
wrote:
From: Pete Christensen <pchristensen10@austin.rr.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Removing ethanol from gasoline
<http://us.mc369.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pchristensen10@austin.rr.
com> pchristensen10@austin.rr.com>
Here is my experience with removing ethanol from gasoline.
In the North Austin, Texas area I have found no source for gasoline
without ethanol. The nearest I have found is more than an hours drive
away without any nearby airport. I could load up my van with 5-gallon
cans, but buying the cans and the cost of time and fuel for my van would
make that difficult.
I have read everything I can on the subject on the Internet and have
corresponded with a few of you online.
Here is what I came up with. Last week I bought a 6-1/2 gallon carboy
used for making beer. I put 1 quart of water in the carboy and marked a
line at the top of the water. I then poured 5-1/2 gallons of high-test
gasohol into the jug. The pouring action stimulates the ethanol to begin
separation from the mix. After awhile the water-ethanol has separated
from the mix and I mark a new line that indicates the new level of the
bottom of cleaned gasoline. I use a siphon to siphon the cleaned
gasoline off the top of the water/ethanol leaving a gallon or so of good
gas to avoid siphoning up any water. (Note I do NOT pour the out this
gas/water/alcohol from the jug.) I can continue pouring gasohol into the
carboy and the process starts all over again. After a gallon or two of
water/ethanol builds up, I siphon the water/ethanol from the bottom of
the jug and add a little more water.
I pour this cleaned gas into my plane through a Mr. Funnel Fuel Filter
Funnel, which is supposed to remove any remaining water. (I found no
detectable water in the filter after pouring 10 gallons)
I have run this so far about 50/50 with avgas I had in my tank.
I have only flown the one time a couple days ago for more than an hour
with no problems. Time will tell if problems develop.
I am NOT endorsing this process for others but only describing what I am
doing.
Pete
Kitfox III ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"
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| Subject: | Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
Alky resistant hose is defined as automotive hose SAE R7 or R9.
Use the stuff and forget about changing hose
for many many years just like the auto people do.
Paul
=======
>
>I also have a little beef with the word
>resistant No one has been able to give me
>any definition for it in this
>context. Changing the tubes every year sounds like a great idea.
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
If you are using ethanol fuel and find any water in the fuel you are in big
trouble. To an extent the ethanol in the fuel absorbs any water there but
once a saturation point is reached a process called phase separation will
occur. If that happens in your tank the engine will stop. There is no way
for you to tell exactly how much moisture ( water) is in your fuel at any
time so the best thing to do is only to fly on the freshest fuel you can get
and never leave ethanol laced fuel in your plane for long periods of time.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: July 9, 2010 10:55 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline
Hi All,
My tanks are Kreem Wiessed and that is just fine for alcohol. There are over
1500 Flight Design CT's flying world wide and about 320 here in the states.
They are all kreem Wiess coated. Kreem Weiss is impervious to alcohol and
just about anything else. It is one of the top tank coatings on the market.
If you have a tank you are worried about them Kreem it and don't worry.
p.s.
I never had much luck with MR. Funnel taking water out either. Your Rotax
will burn a certain amount of water in the fuel so long as it doesn't become
excessive. That's why I don't worry about a little water in the fuel or
using ethanol. That said I do live in Tucson, AZ where the humidity is
usually only 10-15% and we only get 12" of rain a year. There are thousands
of people who live in a humid rainy climate with their Rotax's around the
world and don't have any major issues with just humidity.
p.s.s.
Hi Dick,
How are you doing? Hope your staying out of the heat?
Why don't you use 91 oct. all year and not worry?
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304312#304312
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| Subject: | Removing ethanol from gasoline |
Like everyone else I was worried about ethanol fuel coming here so I had a
long conversation with a friend of mine who at that time operated a large
commercial laboratory. He actually did experiments for me and told me the
process was safe if I was sure to leave the washed gas for at least twenty
minutes before trying to siphon the gas off. He also told me that most gas
without octane boosters was just below 87 RON. I also asked him to test a
few commercial octane boosters available in the local area. None of them did
anything to increase the temperatures of the flash tests he performed.
A good question is where did he get the E-10 to test? He made it using
laboratory quality ethanol.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bjones@dmv.com
Sent: July 9, 2010 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Removing ethanol from gasoline
Multiple folks with expertise in the commercial fuel science industry that
I spoke with, who would not endorse the process of removing the ethanol
from auto fuel to use the cleaned gas in an aircraft, when pressed, said
that if I started with "cleaned" premium auto fuel and adding less than
25% leaded (100LL) avgas the result would have over 87 octane.
What has been missed in this thread so far, is the potential for settleout
to occur in a planes gas tank. I have had it occur in other applications.
And the engines would not run on the settleout. Probably not a problem in
dry climate from condensation and in planes with gas tank caps that
prevent rain water from getting in.
BJ
N154K
BJ
N154K
> <marwynne@windstream.net>
>
> Did you think of how effected the Octane Rating ? Just a concern. The
> ethanol was add in place of other octane boosters.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pete Christensen" <pchristensen10@austin.rr.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 10:43 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Removing ethanol from gasoline
>
>
>> <pchristensen10@austin.rr.com>
>>
>> Here is my experience with removing ethanol from gasoline.
>>
>> In the North Austin, Texas area I have found no source for gasoline
>> without
>> ethanol. The nearest I have found is more than an hours drive away
>> without
>> any nearby airport. I could load up my van with 5-gallon cans, but
>> buying
>> the cans and the cost of time and fuel for my van would make that
>> difficult.
>>
>> I have read everything I can on the subject on the Internet and have
>> corresponded with a few of you online.
>>
>> Here is what I came up with. Last week I bought a 6-1/2 gallon carboy
>> used
>> for making beer. I put 1 quart of water in the carboy and marked a line
>> at
>> the top of the water. I then poured 5-1/2 gallons of high-test gasohol
>> into
>> the jug. The pouring action stimulates the ethanol to begin separation
>> from
>> the mix. After awhile the water-ethanol has separated from the mix and I
>> mark a new line that indicates the new level of the bottom of cleaned
>> gasoline. I use a siphon to siphon the cleaned gasoline off the top of
>> the
>> water/ethanol leaving a gallon or so of good gas to avoid siphoning up
>> any
>> water. (Note I do NOT pour the out this gas/water/alcohol from the jug.)
>> I
>> can continue pouring gasohol into the carboy and the process starts all
>> over
>> again. After a gallon or two of water/ethanol builds up, I siphon the
>> water/ethanol from the bottom of the jug and add a little more water.
>>
>> I pour this cleaned gas into my plane through a Mr. Funnel Fuel Filter
>> Funnel, which is supposed to remove any remaining water. (I found no
>> detectable water in the filter after pouring 10 gallons)
>>
>> I have run this so far about 50/50 with avgas I had in my tank.
>>
>> I have only flown the one time a couple days ago for more than an hour
>> with
>> no problems. Time will tell if problems develop.
>>
>> I am NOT endorsing this process for others but only describing what I am
>> doing.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> Kitfox III SN 1000
>>
>> 912
>>
>> Grove
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: water temps revisited |
With those small holes in the 582 thermostat, I would suspect that there is a certain
position that they need to be in, such as rotated that they will be in
the top or bottom position. I am guessing, but I bet they have something to do
with the release of those unwanted steam pockets.
Anyone have ideas on this?
Bill Malpass
Marietta, Georgia
--------
kitfox III w/ 582 greyhead
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304476#304476
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| Subject: | Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
I wonder if it will also handle avgas? Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul wilson" <pwmac@sisna.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline
>
> Alky resistant hose is defined as automotive hose SAE R7 or R9.
> Use the stuff and forget about changing hose
> for many many years just like the auto people do.
> Paul
> =======
>>
>>I also have a little beef with the word
>>?oresistant? No one has been able to give me
>>any definition for it in this
>>context. Changing the tubes every year sounds like a great idea.
>>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
02:36:00
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
Yes, SAE 30R7 is what I have been using on my plane for a few years,
and I use 100LL exclusively. I have changed some of it just because I
had the lines off to service a filter or increase the size of a line,
or some other reason, and it still looks good, feels flexible, etc.,
but while I had it off, I changed it, unless is was under a year old.
I haven't found it to get hard.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 1006.3 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1000 hrs. plus...
On Jul 11, 2010, at 2:03 PM, larry huntley wrote:
> <asq@roadrunner.com>
>
> I wonder if it will also handle avgas? Larry
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "paul wilson" <pwmac@sisna.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 12:24 PM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline
>
>
>>
>> Alky resistant hose is defined as automotive hose SAE R7 or R9.
>> Use the stuff and forget about changing hose
>> for many many years just like the auto people do.
>> Paul
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: bolt size needed please! |
Thanks to all for your response!
Cheers
Richard
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304494#304494
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| Subject: | Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline |
Thanks Lynn,
That is a great piece of info. I am going to change mine also because of
age and was trying to find a good hose for all applications. Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline
>
> Yes, SAE 30R7 is what I have been using on my plane for a few years,
> and I use 100LL exclusively. I have changed some of it just because I
> had the lines off to service a filter or increase the size of a line,
> or some other reason, and it still looks good, feels flexible, etc.,
> but while I had it off, I changed it, unless is was under a year old.
> I haven't found it to get hard.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 1006.3 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood (summer)
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying...1000 hrs. plus...
>
> On Jul 11, 2010, at 2:03 PM, larry huntley wrote:
>
>> <asq@roadrunner.com>
>>
>> I wonder if it will also handle avgas? Larry
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "paul wilson" <pwmac@sisna.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 12:24 PM
>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Removing ethanol from gasoline
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Alky resistant hose is defined as automotive hose SAE R7 or R9.
>>> Use the stuff and forget about changing hose
>>> for many many years just like the auto people do.
>>> Paul
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
02:36:00
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: water temps revisited |
Bill, Don't think hole position matters. Holes are to facilitate slight
amount of water to move allowing warmer water in the engine to circulate and
reach thermostat to allow it to open.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 REBUILT
Rockford, IL
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 12:45 PM, malpass <malpass-architect@att.net> wrote:
>
> With those small holes in the 582 thermostat, I would suspect that there is
> a certain position that they need to be in, such as rotated that they will
> be in the top or bottom position. I am guessing, but I bet they have
> something to do with the release of those unwanted steam pockets.
>
> Anyone have ideas on this?
>
> Bill Malpass
>
> Marietta, Georgia
>
> --------
> kitfox III w/ 582 greyhead
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304476#304476
>
>
--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
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