Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:10 AM - Model II Weight and Balance (Ken Potter)
2. 05:51 AM - Re: Model II Weight and Balance (Mike Chaney)
3. 06:09 AM - Re: Model II Weight and Balance (dave)
4. 06:50 AM - Re: Model II Weight and Balance (Ken Potter)
5. 07:59 AM - Re: Model II Weight and Balance (Tom Jones)
6. 08:09 AM - Re: Model II Weight and Balance (dave)
7. 08:21 AM - Re: Model II Weight and Balance (Ken Potter)
8. 08:49 AM - Re: Model II Weight and Balance (dave)
9. 09:10 AM - Re: Model II Weight and Balance (akflyer)
10. 09:55 AM - Re: Model II Weight and Balance (Tom Jones)
11. 10:20 AM - Re: Model II Weight and Balance (Michael Gibbs)
12. 11:01 PM - Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
13. 11:05 PM - Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
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| Subject: | Model II Weight and Balance |
Hi Folks;
I weighed and my plane yesterday and did the W&B calculation. The forward CG is
ok, but the aft CG (at full load) is .3" outside the limit. Question, how sensitive
is the KF to aft CG conditions. To trim this small amount out and reweigh
will be a real pain.
Cheers
Ken
--------
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307024#307024
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Weight and Balance |
Ken
-
I'm not sure this is an answer to your question but when I finished my mode
l four back in 1996, with a Rotax 582, I had to add five piunds of lead sho
t up against the firewall to get my W&B correct.- Since then I have chang
ed to a Jabiru 2200 and-I removed the lead shot.
-
Mike Chaney
--- On Sun, 8/1/10, Ken Potter <kjpotter@sympatico.ca> wrote:
From: Ken Potter <kjpotter@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Model II Weight and Balance
Hi Folks;
I weighed and my plane yesterday and did the W&B calculation.- The forwar
d CG is ok, but the aft CG (at full load) is .3" outside the limit.- Ques
tion, how sensitive is the KF to aft CG conditions.- To trim this small a
mount out and reweigh will be a real pain.
Cheers
Ken
--------
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307024#307024
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Weight and Balance |
Ken ,
I would re-weigh -- and re-check numbers again.
Some Kitfox had the c o G range extended AFT but I not sure what model.
Is your numbers are accurate as well as your scales ?
.3 is not alot and what was it solo?
What weights did you use for persons? 170 or actual ?
You must not have a dash tank? The dash tank would help this alot
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Weight and Balance |
Dave,
The scales I used belong to EAA chapter 245 in Ottawa and are relatively new.
I checked them with a test weight and they were + - 1 lb.
My plane is one of the later model II's with the 1.5 gal tank behind the seat.
The battery is mounted forward on the rear side of the firewall. The only piece
of equipment not on board was my Garmin 296 GPS but that is mounted right under
the datum line anyways.
One thing I didn't mention is that the plane has come out relatively heavy at 550
lbs empty, probably from my full polyfibre paint treatment.
As per the instructions in the original Denny manual for full gross weight aft
CG calculation, I used me in the pilot seat and weights in the pax seat to bring
it up to gross of 950. That's the calculation which came out as .3" aft of
limit. The pilot only (fwd CG) came out well within limits.
I'm going to re-crunch the numbers this morning just to double check the calculations.
If I need weight forward I'll just install a larger battery. Better to
have that weight providing some benefit.
Cheers
Ken
--------
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307036#307036
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Weight and Balance |
Pat, work up one weight and balance sheet with a loading that puts the CG right
at the aft limit and another that puts it at the forward limit. Keep these in
the plane to show if asked at a ramp check.
Adding weight to stay within the CG limits is productive only if it allows the
payload to increase too.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307043#307043
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Weight and Balance |
Ken,
Do you have a excel sheet that you can input numbers on ?
Reason I ask is that did you actually measure everything or did you use someone
else's numbers.
550 lbs is heavy for a model 2 ------
I would bet that you will be ok flying it.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Weight and Balance |
Dave,
I measured the main gear moment (2.375") and the tail wheel moment myself on the
actual A/C. I'm going out to re-measure again as I trust the scales and think
that a miss-measurment, especially of the tailwheel moment could have given
me the .5 inch out of limit in the full gross state.
I have excel but I've also rechecked my calculations, and other than one small
mistake, they check out. The only other thing I can think of is that I did the
full gross calcuation with the behind-the-seat fuel tank full.... but then,
that tank is full when in flight anyways so in my mind should be included.
Cheers
Ken
--------
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307045#307045
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Weight and Balance |
Skystar Kitfox Model IV ( 4) ser. #1717 C-FDUG
WEIGHT AND BALANCE FOR AIRCRAFT Wheels orig copy Installed
THE DATUM : Leading Edge of wing
Leveling Means: Bubble level on longitudinal fuselage floor tubing below the cabin
Maximum Gross Weight:1050
Forward CG limit 11.37 Aft CG limit 16.00
ENTER DATA IN THE RED CELLS AS NEEDED
COMPUTED RESULTS IN THE BLUE CELLS.
ALL WEIGHTS IN LBS, DISTANCES IN INCHES and AFT (unless marked "-")
PART ONE
(EMPTY WEIGHT DATA)
IF YOU DON'T KNOW, GO TO PART TWO
ENTER EMPTY AIRCRAFT WEIGHT HERE = 520 LBS
ENTER AIRCRAFT EMPTY CG HERE = 12.95 IN.
ENTER EMPTY MOMENT HERE = 6734 INCH/LBS
CALCULATED EMPTY AIRCRAFT MOMENT = 6734 INCH/LBS
PART TWO
(CALCULATING EMPTY WEIGHT DATA)
FIGURING EMPTY WEIGHT CG.
MAIN WHEELS DATA WEIGHTS
RIGHT MAIN WHEEL WEIGHT = 244 LBS
LEFT MAIN WHEEL WEIGHT = 242 LBS
MAIN WHEEL DISTANCE FROM DATUM = 2.9 IN.
MAIN WHEEL MOMENT = 1409.4 INCH/LBS
CALCULATED MAIN WHEEL MOMENT = 1409.4 INCH/LBS
TAIL WHEEL/NOSE WHEEL DATA
TAIL/NOSE WHEEL WEIGHT = 34 LBS
NOSE WHEEL DISTANCE FROM DATUM= 156.6 IN.
NOSE MOMENT IF KNOWN = INCH/LBS
CALCULATED TAIL/NOSE MOMENT = 5324.4 INCH/LBS
TOTAL WEIGHT = 520 LBS
CG MOMENT
EMPTY WEIGHT CENTER OF GRAVITY DATA 12.95 IN 6734 INCH/LBS AFT of datum
FIGURE FINAL CG BELOW
ENTER THE FOLLOWING AS NEEDED
SUBJECT WEIGHT X ARM X MOMENT
AIRCRAFT EMPTY WEIGHT = 520 X 13.29 X 6884.22 INCH/LBS
PILOT WEIGHT = 170 X 18.3 X 3111 INCH/LBS
PASSENGER WEIGHT = 170 X 18.3 X 3111 INCH/LBS
FUEL WEIGHT (7.2 LBS/GAL) = 56 X -8 X -448 INCH/LBS
OIL WEIGHT (1.9LBS/QT) = 3.8 X -21 X -79.8 INCH/LBS
BAGGAGE WEIGHT = X 30 X 0 INCH/LBS
Wing tanks (7.2 LBS/GAL) 72 X 16.5 X 1188 INCH/LBS
ELT 3.3 X 0 X 0 INCH/LBS
First Aid Kit 1.5 30
X X 0 INCH/LBS
TOTALS 996.6 LBS 13766.42 INCH/LBS
AIRCRAFT CENTER OF GRAVITY = 13.81 INCHES Aft of DATUM
Equipment list included in Weight and Balance report as required by CARS 549.13
Equipment and Instruments
Additional Equipment List:
ELT, First aid kit Added to Weight and Balance report
MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE STATEMENT
The described maintenance has been performed in accordance with the applicable
airworthiness requirements
Date:_______________
____________________________________
(Signature)
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
http://www.cfisher.com/
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Weight and Balance |
if it is anything like the Avid, the CG range is very conservative. Dean Wilson
told me that I could safely go back to 19" or so, and it would fly better.
He said not to stall it at more than 20" without using flaps or I may never get
the nose back down in time.
I flew mine at 18" and the performance was much better. No running out of elevator
in the flair. Slow flight and STOL was much better at 18" versus the more
forward CG mine comes in at empty.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Weight and Balance |
Pat, just to be sure you didn't forget it. Did you remember to subtract the tare
weight from the tail wheel weight?
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307058#307058
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| Subject: | Re: Model II Weight and Balance |
Ken sez:
>I weighed and my plane yesterday and did the W&B calculation. The
>forward CG is ok, but the aft CG (at full load) is .3" outside the
>limit.
How did you accomplish a "full load"? Did you have weight in the
baggage area to reach "full"? This might just indicate that you
cannot have that much behind the seats when operating at higher
weights in the real world.
If, on the other hand, you only had weight in the seats and the CG
moves past the aft limit before reaching maximum gross weight, you
may have to resort to adding ballast.
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
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Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kitfox
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kitfox-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Kitfox-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Kitfox-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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