---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/12/10: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:10 AM - Re: rolling kitfox (jlw3@juno.com) 2. 06:57 AM - Electrical Problem (Lyle Persels) 3. 08:44 AM - Re: Electrical Problem (KITFOXZ@aol.com) 4. 08:54 AM - Re: Electrical Problem (Guy Buchanan) 5. 10:34 AM - Re: rolling kitfox (Pete Christensen) 6. 10:56 AM - Re: Electrical Problem (Pete Christensen) 7. 02:21 PM - Re: rolling kitfox (Tom Jones) 8. 02:27 PM - Re: Electrical Problem (Tom Jones) 9. 02:35 PM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 10/11/10 (Ed Gray) 10. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: rolling kitfox (KITFOXZ@aol.com) 11. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: Electrical Problem (KITFOXZ@aol.com) 12. 06:54 PM - Re: Electrical Problem (Tom Jones) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:22 AM PST US From: "jlw3@juno.com" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rolling kitfox Hi Ed I have a kitfox 1.with a 582 I don't thank your kitfox is strong enough to do aerobatics. It looks like you war trying to do a barrel roll. The airplane has a lot of drag and not much weight to carry it though. you will probably have to use full power to keep up speed. I thank VNE is 100 mph. Again PLEASE check with some one that relay knows all about kitfox histo ry be for you try it again. Be carfull Good Luck Larry kitfox 1 582 Holly Hill, Fla. ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Ed Gray" Subject: Kitfox-List: rolling kitfox Needing help with roll technique. I decided to try a few rolls in my mo del 2 with 582, so I put on my parachute, climbed to 5k and tried a few. I entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put in full left aileron, so me left rudder, and maintained back pressure. When inverted, the nose d ropped fast and at 270 deg. I was in a steep dive, so ended up sort of a split S out of it. Tried it several times with similar results. What is the best procedure and entry speed and angle for an aileron roll ? Also, anyone have experience with Cuban Eights? Ed Gray, Dallas KII 582 do not archive ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ========= ____________________________________________________________ blu Electronic Cigarettes Looks, feels, and tastes real. Enjoy the freedom to smoke anywhere. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4cb409281766e230284st05vuc ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:25 AM PST US From: Lyle Persels Subject: Kitfox-List: Electrical Problem I'm an old timer on the list who reads the list daily but rarely posts. I have a Model IV with a 912S. My charging system has apparently failed. The voltage indicator shows battery voltage, not charging circuit voltage, regardless of rpm, and the the ammeter indicates a slight drain where it showed none before this problem arose. The battery runs down in a relatively short period of operation. The low voltage causes the electronic tach to read several hundred rpm low. I find no wiring problem. I hate to buy a new regulator just to troubleshoot. Can anyone suggest what the problem(s) might be and how to check? Lyle Persels Iowa ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:57 AM PST US From: KITFOXZ@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electrical Problem Lyle I rarely post myself. The problem could be a bad connection in your electrical system. Carefully check all connections, especially ground connections and battery terminal connections. You don't say in your post what your voltmeter is actually reading. It is possible you simply have a bad battery (a shorted cell) that is pulling your alternator/regulator's output down and the bad battery never charges up to full voltage of 12.5-13.0 volts. Charge the battery with an external overnight battery charger of 12 watt (1 amp) size. If the battery is up to 12.5 to 13 volts in the morning with charger removed, it is probably good and the regulator is bad. Substitute a known good fully charged battery from one of your cars or lawn tractor and confirm with a voltmeter that the battery voltage is 12.5 - 13 volts. With the engine running, the good substitute battery's voltage should come up to 13.8 - 14 volts. If not, the alternator/regulator's output is defective. Good luck, John Z. In a message dated 10/12/2010 9:58:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lpers@mchsi.com writes: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels I'm an old timer on the list who reads the list daily but rarely posts. I have a Model IV with a 912S. My charging system has apparently failed. The voltage indicator shows battery voltage, not charging circuit voltage, regardless of rpm, and the the ammeter indicates a slight drain where it showed none before this problem arose. The battery runs down in a relatively short period of operation. The low voltage causes the electronic tach to read several hundred rpm low. I find no wiring problem. I hate to buy a new regulator just to troubleshoot. Can anyone suggest what the problem(s) might be and how to check? Lyle Persels Iowa ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:57 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electrical Problem On 10/12/2010 6:48 AM, Lyle Persels wrote: > I hate to buy a new regulator just to troubleshoot. Can anyone suggest > what the problem(s) might be and how to check? Lyle, There have been failures of the wiring coming out of the PM alternator. The only diagnostic info I could find on it's output is |*There is nothing in the Rotax 912 manuals to assist in doing this. I checked the internal engine coil resistance reading and found it to be .7-ohms. The DC voltage at the regulator is the same previously reported (still under 13-volts). Finally I measured AC voltage coming from the coils. The voltage varied as follows: Idle (1900-RPM) was 12.8 volts 2500-RPM was 16.0 v 3000-RPM was 19.0 v 4000-RPM was 24.5 v cruse(5000-RPM)was not measured. *| So check your AC output at the input to the voltage regulator and see if it looks like this. If it does then check your voltage regulator output. It should be about 13.8 volts at 4000 rpm. If it's not then the regulator's failed, a relatively common occurrence. You'll get lots of help and information on these types of problems at the Aeroelectric Matronics list. http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3 -- *_Guy Buchanan_* Scoutmaster -- Troop 680 760.809.6145 scoutmaster@troop680.org www.troop680.org ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:52 AM PST US From: Pete Christensen Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: rolling kitfox You forgot one step after "entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put in full left aileron"..You left out the part where you put your head between your legs and kiss your butt goodby. Seriously, did you give down elevator when you were approaching inverted? On 10/12/2010 12:23 AM, Ed Gray wrote: > > Needing help with roll technique. I decided to try a few rolls in my > model 2 with 582, so I put on my parachute, climbed to 5k and tried a > few. I entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put in full left > aileron, some left rudder, and maintained back pressure. When > inverted, the nose dropped fast and at 270 deg. I was in a steep dive, > so ended up sort of a split S out of it. Tried it several times with > similar results. > > What is the best procedure and entry speed and angle for an aileron > roll? Also, anyone have experience with Cuban Eights? > > Ed Gray, Dallas KII 582 do not archive > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:43 AM PST US From: Pete Christensen Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electrical Problem My personal experience. I went through all kinds of trouble shooting. I bought a new regulator. Problem fixed. Pete On 10/12/2010 8:48 AM, Lyle Persels wrote: > > I'm an old timer on the list who reads the list daily but rarely posts. > > I have a Model IV with a 912S. My charging system has apparently failed. > The voltage indicator shows battery voltage, not charging circuit > voltage, regardless of rpm, and the the ammeter indicates a slight drain > where it showed none before this problem arose. The battery runs down in > a relatively short period of operation. The low voltage causes the > electronic tach to read several hundred rpm low. I find no wiring problem. > > I hate to buy a new regulator just to troubleshoot. Can anyone suggest > what the problem(s) might be and how to check? > > Lyle Persels > Iowa > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:35 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: rolling kitfox From: "Tom Jones" Mine is a Rotax two stroke. To trouble shoot it when the battery went dead I disconnected the battery and checked the voltage coming out of the voltage regulator. It was 1/2 volt DC at all RPM. I then disconnected the voltage regulator and checked the voltage coming out of the engine alternator. It was 35 volts AC at 3000 rpm and 70 volts AC at 6000 RPM. Normal according to the engine manual. I then knew it was a bad regulator. I put on a new Key West regulator. It puts out 14 volts DC at all RPM. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315474#315474 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:20 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Electrical Problem From: "Tom Jones" Mine is a Rotax two stroke. To trouble shoot it when the battery went dead I disconnected the battery and checked the voltage coming out of the voltage regulator. It was only 1/2 volt DC at all RPM. It should be 13.5 to 14 volts. I then disconnected the voltage regulator and checked the voltage coming out of the engine alternator. It was 35 volts AC at 3000 rpm and 70 volts AC at 6000 RPM. Normal according to the engine manual. I then knew it was a bad regulator. I put on a new Key West regulator. It puts out 14 volts DC at all RPM. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315476#315476 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:35:26 PM PST US From: "Ed Gray" Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 10/11/10 As an alternative to electric actuators, maybe air actuators will work. I am installing air cylinders in my muktuk design floats, which were built by Kasper Naef. Bembo actuators are inexpensive and lighter than electric, and they provide spring action for the wheels. You only need a small air tank and a 12 v. compressor or air up on the ground good for numerous cycles. Bembo can provide any stroke, any force needed, single or double action. Check the Bembo website. Ed Gray Dallas KII do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kitfox-List Digest Server Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 2:00 AM Subject: Kitfox-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 10/11/10 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Kitfox-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Kitfox-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 10-10-11&Archive=Kitfox Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2010-10-11&Archive=Kitfox =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/11/10: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:54 AM - Re: Wheel bearing seals (Jeffrey Dill) 2. 06:21 AM - Aerocet 1100 Amphibs (Kitfoxkirk) 3. 06:38 AM - Re: Wheel bearing seals (Tom Jones) 4. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: coolant leak 582 (Dave G) 5. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: coolant leak 582 (Guy Buchanan) 6. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: 582 oil question (Guy Buchanan) 7. 12:27 PM - Re: Wheel bearing seals (icaza francisco) 8. 12:32 PM - IVO prop degrees indicator (icaza francisco) 9. 12:45 PM - Re: IVO prop degrees indicator (akflyer) 10. 12:52 PM - Re: 582 oil question (akflyer) 11. 10:28 PM - rolling kitfox (Ed Gray) 12. 11:09 PM - Re: Aerocet 1100 Amphibs (dholly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:54 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Wheel bearing seals From: "Jeffrey Dill" <1dillfamily@comcast.net> That should do it, thanks! How often do you repack your bearings? -------- Jeff Dill Model 2 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315324#315324 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:51 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Aerocet 1100 Amphibs From: Kitfoxkirk Hello Fellow Kitfoxers, Does anybody know how to get rid of the cables and pulleys in the Aerocet 1100 amphibs and replace with electric motors? I saw out in cyberspace there were a few people have done it but I could not download pictures or plans. They stated that with the electrics, they saved a few pounds and it was a cleaner installation. Thanks, Kirk Martenson Classic IV 912 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:37 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Wheel bearing seals From: "Tom Jones" Once a year at condition inspection. I had a hard time finding the seals the first year so I got two sets then get a set each year so i always have a set on hand just in case. Here's a link to the EAA "Hints for Home Builders" shorty video on packing wheel bearings. The seals shown are different than a kitfox...kitfox are better...but the rest is good. I didn't know I was supposed to wash my hands first. http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=86367874001 -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315329#315329 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:21 AM PST US From: "Dave G" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: coolant leak 582 Thanks Bob, went back and sealed all exits from the area and then put a little lung power into the area, definitely leaking through the shaft seal and out that hole. Very disappointing to pay a listed repair station for repairs and have it come back with the cylinders misaligned and the shaft seal leaking. Not quite sure what I'll do now. ----- Original Message ----- From: "akflyerbob" Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:06 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: coolant leak 582 > > > This should be a vent between the outer ceramic seal and > the enter seal. If it is leaking from there then the ceramic > outer seal is leaking. > This space is also provided to vent heat from between the seals. > > -------- > Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska > KF Mod I and III > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315297#315297 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:12 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: coolant leak 582 On 10/11/2010 7:55 AM, Dave G wrote: > Thanks Bob, went back and sealed all exits from the area and then put > a little lung power into the area, definitely leaking through the > shaft seal and out that hole. Very disappointing to pay a listed > repair station for repairs and have it come back with the cylinders > misaligned and the shaft seal leaking. > > Not quite sure what I'll do now. Fix it yourself. It's worth the education and the knowledge it's done right. There's plenty of help here and on the Matronics Rotax forum. -- *_Guy Buchanan_* Kitfox IV-1200 / 582-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hours? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:14 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 oil question On 10/9/2010 8:16 AM, akflyer wrote: > We are running this oil in several planes here the last few years with no issues! > Leonard and the rest, Any idea where I can find this oil in the SoCal area or on-line? Thanks, -- *_Guy Buchanan _*Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:22 PM PST US From: icaza francisco Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wheel bearing seals Dear friends, I=C2=B4ve instaled a new IVO prop in my Kitfox classic IV with a Rotax 912S . I=C2=B4ve seen complicated the way it operates, checking maniful presure, RPM, power, etc. I wonder if someone has found a system for IVO as simple as the Air-plast prop, an indicator of how much degrees the prop has in cer tain point, or something as a led gradual scale indicator as the trims have .. I appreciate in advance your opinions, Francisco Icaza.=C2- --- El dom 10-oct-10, Jeffrey Dill <1dillfamily@comcast.net> escribi=C3=B3: De: Jeffrey Dill <1dillfamily@comcast.net> Asunto: Kitfox-List: Wheel bearing seals A: kitfox-list@matronics.com Fecha: domingo, 10 de octubre de 2010, 18:31 Is there another source for the inner wheel bearing seal? I have the standa rd Douglas wheel with golf cart tire. Various checklists for the annual con dition inspection include packing the wheel bearings, but to do so on the i nner bearing requires probably destroying the inner seal. I have purchased these before from the McBeans, but don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t seem to be connecting with them. -------- Jeff Dill Model 2 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315289#315289 S WEB FORUMS - on Web Site - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:58 PM PST US From: icaza francisco Subject: Kitfox-List: IVO prop degrees indicator Dear friends, I=B4ve instaled a new IVO prop in my Kitfox classic IV with a Rotax 912S. I =B4ve seen complicated the way it operates, checking maniful presure, RPM, power, etc. I wonder if someone has found a system for IVO as simple as the Air-plast prop, an indicator of how much degrees the prop has in certain p oint, or something as a led gradual scale indicator as the trims have. I appreciate in advance your opinions, Francisco Icaza.-=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:35 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: IVO prop degrees indicator From: "akflyer" an IVO is the simplest prop to set that I have seen on the market. Just bolt it on, warm it up, do a static run up and see how many RPM you are turning. If you are not getting full RPM, crank a little out. If you are over revving, crank a little more in. You can tweek it a little bit to get the blades set just right for take off and cruise after a few flights. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild) IVO IFA Full Lotus 1450 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315372#315372 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:12 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 oil question From: "akflyer" Jim, I cant believe you bought some of the snake oil I promoted ha ha. Just kidding, it's a great oil, I just had to make a reference to the snake oil salesman thing.. Guy, I would google CITGO and call there customer service and find out if there is a store near you, or any bulk petroleum sales outlet that carries it. We dont have any CITGO stations in our area, and I have to drive 180 miles to get mine, but I buy 10+ cases at a time so it makes it well worth it! -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild) IVO IFA Full Lotus 1450 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315373#315373 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:39 PM PST US From: "Ed Gray" Subject: Kitfox-List: rolling kitfox Needing help with roll technique. I decided to try a few rolls in my model 2 with 582, so I put on my parachute, climbed to 5k and tried a few. I entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put in full left aileron, some left rudder, and maintained back pressure. When inverted, the nose dropped fast and at 270 deg. I was in a steep dive, so ended up sort of a split S out of it. Tried it several times with similar results. What is the best procedure and entry speed and angle for an aileron roll? Also, anyone have experience with Cuban Eights? Ed Gray, Dallas KII 582 do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:01 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Aerocet 1100 Amphibs From: "dholly" Ron S was kind enough to share his experience in this thread (http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=1156&highlight=aerocet). I have attached the additional details he offered. -------- -Kitfox III 582 Blue/C Grove Spring / Aerocet 1100 Amphibs -Airdale Avid+ (project) TD / W.I.B. Gear Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315404#315404 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aerocet_wheel_retract_system_295.pdf ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:58 PM PST US From: KITFOXZ@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: rolling kitfox Caution doing this! Most voltage regulators require the battery to be in the circuit for system DC stability. It is very possible to smoke the voltage regulator and other electronic components on the bus without the battery's reference supply voltage connected! John Z. It is a similar issue with today's highly computerized cars. Never disconnect the battery from the car's electrical system expecting the car's alternator/voltage regulator to supply stable power In a message dated 10/12/2010 5:22:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nahsikhs@elltel.net writes: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" Mine is a Rotax two stroke. To trouble shoot it when the battery went dead I disconnected the battery and checked the voltage coming out of the voltage regulator. It was 1/2 volt DC at all RPM. I then disconnected the voltage regulator and checked the voltage coming out of the engine alternator. It was 35 volts AC at 3000 rpm and 70 volts AC at 6000 RPM. Normal according to the engine manual. I then knew it was a bad regulator. I put on a new Key West regulator. It puts out 14 volts DC at all RPM. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315474#315474 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:37 PM PST US From: KITFOXZ@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Electrical Problem Caution doing this! Most voltage regulators require the battery to be in the circuit for system DC stability. It is very possible to smoke the voltage regulator and other electronic components on the bus without the battery's reference supply voltage connected! John Z. In a message dated 10/12/2010 5:27:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nahsikhs@elltel.net writes: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" Mine is a Rotax two stroke. To trouble shoot it when the battery went dead I disconnected the battery and checked the voltage coming out of the voltage regulator. It was only 1/2 volt DC at all RPM. It should be 13.5 to 14 volts. I then disconnected the voltage regulator and checked the voltage coming out of the engine alternator. It was 35 volts AC at 3000 rpm and 70 volts AC at 6000 RPM. Normal according to the engine manual. I then knew it was a bad regulator. I put on a new Key West regulator. It puts out 14 volts DC at all RPM. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315476#315476 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:00 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Electrical Problem From: "Tom Jones" Okay -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315504#315504 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.