Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:10 AM - Re: Gascolator (Av8r3400)
2. 10:23 AM - Collapsible tank (rawheels)
3. 11:40 AM - Re: Gascolator (Guy Buchanan)
4. 03:40 PM - Re: Gascolator (jerry evans)
5. 05:54 PM - Re: Gascolator (Lowell Fitt)
Message 1
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Excellent point, Noel. No roast from me.
--------
Thanks,
Av8r3400
Kitfox Model IV-1200 W/912UL & IVO
Kitfox Model IV-1050 W/912UL & Warp
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325649#325649
Message 2
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| Subject: | Collapsible tank |
For those who pre-mix; Is there a cheap collapsible fuel tank for mixing the fuel
during cross-country flights or do you attempt to mix the oil/fuel in the wing
tank?
--------
Ryan Wheeler
Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325679#325679
Message 3
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On 1/4/2011 8:02 PM, Noel R.C. Loveys wrote:
>
> The screen in the gascolator should be of a size small enough to block
> particles that may affect the fuel pump. Fuel filters... If you feel
> you need one should be between the pump and the carb... fuel filters
> ( true filters ) should not be used upstream of the pumps. If large
> commercial airliners and small GA planes don't have filtration
> upstream of pumps and it is actually illegal to install such
> filtration, then why is it that The 'Fox needs it?
>
> I know I'm in for another roasting on this one but I feel my training
> holds true for this.
>
How about a mild butt-warming? I know filtration wants to be downstream
of the pump, but the 2-stroke Mikuni pulse pump puts out pathetic
pressure (2-4 psi) and is designed to provide that pressure direct to
the carbs. Not only that, but any particulates in the fuel will cause
the pump to fail anyway. So I put the filter at the highest pressure
spot I could, which is at the bottom of the fuel system where I have a
potential 1-2 psi of head pressure to push fuel through. Why not
install more filters and an electric fuel pump? Simplicity. KISS. Less
stuff to fail.
What if the filter clogs? Well, I try to keep my fuel clean, use a HUGE
gascolator, (the header tank,) sump religiously, and use a HUGE fuel
filter, situated so any heavy particulates sink away from the filter and
any light ones float away. I also clean it once a year. As the falling
man said as he passed the 30th floor, "Been great so far!"
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Message 4
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Noel=C2-=C2- =C2-the way I see it, when you don't have the money for
fuel pressure Gage you don't know what is going on when it stop running , i
f it was fuel or what . What I like is to see that fuel moving knowing if i
t stops I have 1.5 gallon in header tank to land on , or must lean the =C2
-plane so it will flow.=C2-With my experience with the big glass filter
s the fuel flow fast through them so when it slows that tells me to check f
ilters or look somewhere else for problems.=C2-At our airport we take off
of a cliff with about 1200 drop and not much to land on down there,=C2-s
o I=C2-feel better when I glance over and see the fuel going fast. So som
e of us poorer people run what ever works for us but I sure appreciate your
=C2-opinion on all you input to the list =C2-
Jerry Evans
KitfoxII
Magalia Calif.
N582'er'
kitfox 555
--- On Tue, 1/4/11, Noel R.C. Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
From: Noel R.C. Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gascolator
The gascolator should be installed at the lowest point of the fuel system..
..=C2- making it the sump.
=C2-
The screen in the gascolator should be of a size small enough to block part
icles that may affect the fuel pump.=C2- Fuel filters... If you feel=C2
- you need one should be between the pump and the carb...=C2- fuel filt
ers ( true filters ) should not be used upstream of the pumps.=C2- If lar
ge commercial airliners and small GA planes don=99t have filtration u
pstream of pumps and it is actually illegal to install such filtration, the
n why is it that The =98Fox needs it?
=C2-
I know I=99m in for another roasting on this one but I feel my traini
ng holds true for this.=C2-
=C2-
I really don=99t see the advantage of glass case filters.=C2- If yo
u give up flying the plane to eyeball the filters and find the fuel is not
flowing then you have to ask the question just what is the engine running o
n?=C2- If your engine quits and you then notice the fuel is not flowing t
hrough the filters what does it do to alleviate the problem?
=C2-
Noel
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: January 3, 2011 4:21 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Gascolator
=C2-
Question,
=C2-
Is the filter screen on gascolators before or after the sump?
=C2-
Clint=C2-
=C2-
Moving to Cameron Park. =C2- =C2-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kit
fox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
=C2-
Message 5
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Noel,
I want to reply but this is no roast as experimental means we can do
pretty much what we want to do just because, and influencing others to
do it my way is not particularly in my agenda, so everyone just take
this as one man's opinion. (One maybe tiny slice of prime rib here
though. If a Kitfox is challenging enough to fly, that glancing at a
glass filter from time to time is inherently risky, I don't think the
problem is in the fuel system).
Personally, I like the glass filters. As I mentioned before, I will
occasionally look at them to see what is happening there. In our
tanks which differ from the certified and commercial fleets by being
fiberglass there are a number of variables we have, that they don't
have. Among others, two come immediately to mind. There have been
Kreem delamination reports and instances reported of fuel not passing
through (above he header tank) glass filters even while they appeared
clean. The first has been discussed almost forever. The culprit on the
second, was very small invisible glass fibers blocking the filter while
giving no visible indication of a problem. There was also the occasion
when one builder reported that he would have a rough running engine
after a run of several minutes. Then after a short period, he could
restart, but in about the same interval, the engine would begin running
rough again - and again. He finally found that there was a mass of
glass fibers in the bowl of the gascolator and on shut down, they would
apparently drop to the bottom of the bowl. Then after fuel movement
stirred up the fibers again during an engine run, they would get caught
in the screen again and obstruct fuel flow.
During one annual, I was removing the finger strainers for examination
and found on the bottom of the tank, just inside the finger strainer
port, a jagged piece of black rubber about the size of a pinkie
fingernail. It was the perfect size to block the outlet if I had opted
to remove the finger strainers as some had done - but that is another
story. This was obviously introduced into the tank during fueling. I
ran primarily Mogas and without exception when fueling at home, I used a
Mr. Filter so there was no way I introduced that chunk of rubber into
the tank. Like most, on long trips I used Avgas purchased along the
way and most likely got the rubber as a free gift somewhere at a fuel
stop. The point I would make here, is that even though the Avgas is
filtered and the FBOs would swear that there is no way it could happen,
it did, and by the shape of the chunk, I would guess that during
maintenance of the pump and a hose change, a chunk of hose was likely
cut off when they cut the hose to length or as it was pushed over a barb
fitting. FYI, I worked for a time as a fueler at KSFO fueling very
large commercial airliners - B-727 to B-747 (400,000 lbs of fuel).
Those trucks that park under the wings of the airplanes with hoses
running from the ground to the truck and then to the fuel tanks in the
wings are mostly filters. Yes, they are pumps, but 90% of what you see
are a series of very efficient, progressive, high volume filters. That
is essentially the filter that is inline before the airplane's fuel
pumps.
Back to the glass filters, I used a low fuel indicator of my own design.
I tested it once in the real world as I dropped from 11,000 ft.
crossing the Sierras to my pattern altitude - 2300 ft. The tanks were
at about five gallons each and the nose down attitude gave a great
opportunity to unport the aft positioned tank outlets, and watch as
events unfolded (and confirm, incidentally, that the basic fuel system
design in the Kitfox does work). It confirmed my expectations, as I
watched the fuel level drop in the transparent vent line to the level of
the filters, then it visibly dropped in the the filters as well, then
continued to drop in the vent line until it triggered the low fuel
indicator. By actually seeing the fuel I knew exactly what was
transpiring second by second. Otherwise, I would have been relying on
mechanical or electronic sensors, and we all know how reliable these
things can be. Remember the preflight check list item - Visibly check
fuel level? I do understand the wisdom in visually checking the fuel
level before flight, but struggle with the concept that being able to
visually check the fuel flowing during flight introduces flight risks.
I am building again and just about the point where I will be installing
the plumbing and wiring and will do again what 900 hours told me I
"liked" in the old airplane and not doing this time, what I didn't.
Glass filters in view when in flight - liked. Gascolator - didn't like,
will go with those that consider the low mounted header tank an
effective gascolator. Electric fuel pump just below the header tank[ -
liked. I think it saved my bacon once. Of course, other opinions may
vary.
Lowell
From: Noel R.C. Loveys
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 8:02 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gascolator
The gascolator should be installed at the lowest point of the fuel
system.... making it the sump.
The screen in the gascolator should be of a size small enough to block
particles that may affect the fuel pump. Fuel filters... If you feel
you need one should be between the pump and the carb... fuel filters (
true filters ) should not be used upstream of the pumps. If large
commercial airliners and small GA planes don't have filtration upstream
of pumps and it is actually illegal to install such filtration, then why
is it that The 'Fox needs it?
I know I'm in for another roasting on this one but I feel my training
holds true for this.
I really don't see the advantage of glass case filters. If you give up
flying the plane to eyeball the filters and find the fuel is not flowing
then you have to ask the question just what is the engine running on?
If your engine quits and you then notice the fuel is not flowing through
the filters what does it do to alleviate the problem?
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint
Bazzill
Sent: January 3, 2011 4:21 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Gascolator
Question,
Is the filter screen on gascolators before or after the sump?
Clint
Moving to Cameron Park.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
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