---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/05/11: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:10 AM - Re: Gascolator (Av8r3400) 2. 10:23 AM - Collapsible tank (rawheels) 3. 11:40 AM - Re: Gascolator (Guy Buchanan) 4. 03:40 PM - Re: Gascolator (jerry evans) 5. 05:54 PM - Re: Gascolator (Lowell Fitt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:56 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator From: "Av8r3400" Excellent point, Noel. No roast from me. -------- Thanks, Av8r3400 Kitfox Model IV-1200 W/912UL & IVO Kitfox Model IV-1050 W/912UL & Warp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325649#325649 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:14 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Collapsible tank From: "rawheels" For those who pre-mix; Is there a cheap collapsible fuel tank for mixing the fuel during cross-country flights or do you attempt to mix the oil/fuel in the wing tank? -------- Ryan Wheeler Kitfox IV-1200 Indianapolis, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325679#325679 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:43 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gascolator On 1/4/2011 8:02 PM, Noel R.C. Loveys wrote: > > The screen in the gascolator should be of a size small enough to block > particles that may affect the fuel pump. Fuel filters... If you feel > you need one should be between the pump and the carb... fuel filters > ( true filters ) should not be used upstream of the pumps. If large > commercial airliners and small GA planes don't have filtration > upstream of pumps and it is actually illegal to install such > filtration, then why is it that The 'Fox needs it? > > I know I'm in for another roasting on this one but I feel my training > holds true for this. > How about a mild butt-warming? I know filtration wants to be downstream of the pump, but the 2-stroke Mikuni pulse pump puts out pathetic pressure (2-4 psi) and is designed to provide that pressure direct to the carbs. Not only that, but any particulates in the fuel will cause the pump to fail anyway. So I put the filter at the highest pressure spot I could, which is at the bottom of the fuel system where I have a potential 1-2 psi of head pressure to push fuel through. Why not install more filters and an electric fuel pump? Simplicity. KISS. Less stuff to fail. What if the filter clogs? Well, I try to keep my fuel clean, use a HUGE gascolator, (the header tank,) sump religiously, and use a HUGE fuel filter, situated so any heavy particulates sink away from the filter and any light ones float away. I also clean it once a year. As the falling man said as he passed the 30th floor, "Been great so far!" Guy Buchanan Ramona, CA Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:52 PM PST US From: jerry evans Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gascolator Noel=C2-=C2- =C2-the way I see it, when you don't have the money for fuel pressure Gage you don't know what is going on when it stop running , i f it was fuel or what . What I like is to see that fuel moving knowing if i t stops I have 1.5 gallon in header tank to land on , or must lean the =C2 -plane so it will flow.=C2-With my experience with the big glass filter s the fuel flow fast through them so when it slows that tells me to check f ilters or look somewhere else for problems.=C2-At our airport we take off of a cliff with about 1200 drop and not much to land on down there,=C2-s o I=C2-feel better when I glance over and see the fuel going fast. So som e of us poorer people run what ever works for us but I sure appreciate your =C2-opinion on all you input to the list =C2- Jerry Evans KitfoxII Magalia Calif. N582'er' kitfox 555 --- On Tue, 1/4/11, Noel R.C. Loveys wrote: From: Noel R.C. Loveys Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gascolator The gascolator should be installed at the lowest point of the fuel system.. ..=C2- making it the sump. =C2- The screen in the gascolator should be of a size small enough to block part icles that may affect the fuel pump.=C2- Fuel filters... If you feel=C2 - you need one should be between the pump and the carb...=C2- fuel filt ers ( true filters ) should not be used upstream of the pumps.=C2- If lar ge commercial airliners and small GA planes don=99t have filtration u pstream of pumps and it is actually illegal to install such filtration, the n why is it that The =98Fox needs it? =C2- I know I=99m in for another roasting on this one but I feel my traini ng holds true for this.=C2- =C2- I really don=99t see the advantage of glass case filters.=C2- If yo u give up flying the plane to eyeball the filters and find the fuel is not flowing then you have to ask the question just what is the engine running o n?=C2- If your engine quits and you then notice the fuel is not flowing t hrough the filters what does it do to alleviate the problem? =C2- Noel =C2- =C2- =C2- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill Sent: January 3, 2011 4:21 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Gascolator =C2- Question, =C2- Is the filter screen on gascolators before or after the sump? =C2- Clint=C2- =C2- Moving to Cameron Park. =C2- =C2-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kit fox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:41 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gascolator Noel, I want to reply but this is no roast as experimental means we can do pretty much what we want to do just because, and influencing others to do it my way is not particularly in my agenda, so everyone just take this as one man's opinion. (One maybe tiny slice of prime rib here though. If a Kitfox is challenging enough to fly, that glancing at a glass filter from time to time is inherently risky, I don't think the problem is in the fuel system). Personally, I like the glass filters. As I mentioned before, I will occasionally look at them to see what is happening there. In our tanks which differ from the certified and commercial fleets by being fiberglass there are a number of variables we have, that they don't have. Among others, two come immediately to mind. There have been Kreem delamination reports and instances reported of fuel not passing through (above he header tank) glass filters even while they appeared clean. The first has been discussed almost forever. The culprit on the second, was very small invisible glass fibers blocking the filter while giving no visible indication of a problem. There was also the occasion when one builder reported that he would have a rough running engine after a run of several minutes. Then after a short period, he could restart, but in about the same interval, the engine would begin running rough again - and again. He finally found that there was a mass of glass fibers in the bowl of the gascolator and on shut down, they would apparently drop to the bottom of the bowl. Then after fuel movement stirred up the fibers again during an engine run, they would get caught in the screen again and obstruct fuel flow. During one annual, I was removing the finger strainers for examination and found on the bottom of the tank, just inside the finger strainer port, a jagged piece of black rubber about the size of a pinkie fingernail. It was the perfect size to block the outlet if I had opted to remove the finger strainers as some had done - but that is another story. This was obviously introduced into the tank during fueling. I ran primarily Mogas and without exception when fueling at home, I used a Mr. Filter so there was no way I introduced that chunk of rubber into the tank. Like most, on long trips I used Avgas purchased along the way and most likely got the rubber as a free gift somewhere at a fuel stop. The point I would make here, is that even though the Avgas is filtered and the FBOs would swear that there is no way it could happen, it did, and by the shape of the chunk, I would guess that during maintenance of the pump and a hose change, a chunk of hose was likely cut off when they cut the hose to length or as it was pushed over a barb fitting. FYI, I worked for a time as a fueler at KSFO fueling very large commercial airliners - B-727 to B-747 (400,000 lbs of fuel). Those trucks that park under the wings of the airplanes with hoses running from the ground to the truck and then to the fuel tanks in the wings are mostly filters. Yes, they are pumps, but 90% of what you see are a series of very efficient, progressive, high volume filters. That is essentially the filter that is inline before the airplane's fuel pumps. Back to the glass filters, I used a low fuel indicator of my own design. I tested it once in the real world as I dropped from 11,000 ft. crossing the Sierras to my pattern altitude - 2300 ft. The tanks were at about five gallons each and the nose down attitude gave a great opportunity to unport the aft positioned tank outlets, and watch as events unfolded (and confirm, incidentally, that the basic fuel system design in the Kitfox does work). It confirmed my expectations, as I watched the fuel level drop in the transparent vent line to the level of the filters, then it visibly dropped in the the filters as well, then continued to drop in the vent line until it triggered the low fuel indicator. By actually seeing the fuel I knew exactly what was transpiring second by second. Otherwise, I would have been relying on mechanical or electronic sensors, and we all know how reliable these things can be. Remember the preflight check list item - Visibly check fuel level? I do understand the wisdom in visually checking the fuel level before flight, but struggle with the concept that being able to visually check the fuel flowing during flight introduces flight risks. I am building again and just about the point where I will be installing the plumbing and wiring and will do again what 900 hours told me I "liked" in the old airplane and not doing this time, what I didn't. Glass filters in view when in flight - liked. Gascolator - didn't like, will go with those that consider the low mounted header tank an effective gascolator. Electric fuel pump just below the header tank[ - liked. I think it saved my bacon once. Of course, other opinions may vary. Lowell From: Noel R.C. Loveys Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 8:02 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gascolator The gascolator should be installed at the lowest point of the fuel system.... making it the sump. The screen in the gascolator should be of a size small enough to block particles that may affect the fuel pump. Fuel filters... If you feel you need one should be between the pump and the carb... fuel filters ( true filters ) should not be used upstream of the pumps. If large commercial airliners and small GA planes don't have filtration upstream of pumps and it is actually illegal to install such filtration, then why is it that The 'Fox needs it? I know I'm in for another roasting on this one but I feel my training holds true for this. I really don't see the advantage of glass case filters. If you give up flying the plane to eyeball the filters and find the fuel is not flowing then you have to ask the question just what is the engine running on? If your engine quits and you then notice the fuel is not flowing through the filters what does it do to alleviate the problem? Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill Sent: January 3, 2011 4:21 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Gascolator Question, Is the filter screen on gascolators before or after the sump? Clint Moving to Cameron Park. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.