Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:12 AM - Re: Collapsible tank (rawheels)
2. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Gascolator (Lynn Matteson)
3. 02:14 PM - Re: Gascolator (mikeperkins)
4. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Collapsible tank (Dave G)
5. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (Noel R.C. Loveys)
6. 08:36 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (Noel R.C. Loveys)
7. 08:44 PM - Re: Gascolator (Noel R.C. Loveys)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Collapsible tank |
So this is what I am thinking: I have heard (but not actually seen) that some
individuals will use a collapsible water jug with a spigot hung from a truss in
their hangar to fuel their plane. Seeing how polyethylene holds up very well
to ethynol and fairly well to gasoline is sounds at least plausible. Although
you probably have to get a new one every year or so.
Anyway, seems like you could collapse one of those and tie it to the back of the
seat. You'd then use it to mix fuel at each stop. It probably isn't something
that you'd want to keep in the plane for normal use, but with the header tank
behind the seat anyway it doesn't seem like much of an additional risk; assuming
you properly mark it and the spigot will in fact not drip/seep.
--------
Ryan Wheeler
Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325917#325917
Message 2
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I agree...and 4 (out of 5) of mine are right in plain sight while I'm
flying the plane. Being that they have glass bodies makes this very
simple to do.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1075+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)
On Jan 6, 2011, at 4:53 PM, lowandslow1 wrote:
> <lowandslow1@hotmail.com>
>
> Just as a note. I have worked on numerous aircraft (pistons/
> turboprops/turbines- large, small, military) that have filters
> after pumps and before the FCU fuel control unit (carbs/throttle
> bodies/fuel injection systems). There is no reason a filter cannot
> be installed after the gascolator. It needs to be properly
> shielded from heat or blast cooled, just as your gascolator should
> be. Several manufacturer's of fuel control units recommend a
> filter of a certain micron size before fuel enters their unit.
> Having a serviceable filter forward of the firewall and not in the
> cabin area is a good idea. These filters are sometimes referred to
> as "last chance" filters that remove the smallest of particles that
> could clog one of the metering ports before entering the FCU. If
> the filter is after a pump (ie boost) the filter used should be
> rated to handle the psi from the pump. Think of it this way:
> Finger strainer- big chunks, gascolator- small chunks, final filter
> "last chance"- ti!
> ny chunks, then into the engine driven pump or FCU. Some models
> even have a filter on the fuel inlet to the FCU from the engine
> driven pump.
> PS.All of these filters need to be on a regular inspection schedule
> so they can be checked for debris.
>
>
Message 3
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A fuel filter represents a pressure drop in the system. With the filter behind
the pump, the pump is attempting to pull fuel through the filter. This increases
the possibility of vapor lock with the decreased pressure between the fuel
pump and filter. On the other hand, with the filter in front of the pump, fuel
pressure between the pump and filter is increased, decreasing the possibility
of vapor lock.
In general, fuel pumps should be as close to the fuel source as possible because
pumps are better at pushing fuel than pulling it. (Air will expand when fuel/air
bubbles are being pulled more than gasoline will expand. You can try this
yourself with a Facet fuel pump on the bench - you may get 30 GPH of fuel at
4 PSI out of it, but you won't get 30 GPH of air at 4 PSI out of it.)
One rationale for putting the filter behind the pump is that if the filter leaks
or a connection to the filter leaks, then fuel just dribbles out instead of
spraying out. I think the idea is to make sure the fuel system is maintained so
it is intact.
With either arrangement, there are risks and benefits. It's just a matter of what
factor you assign to all of them.
Mike Perkins
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325936#325936
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Collapsible tank |
I am not the most worldly guy when it comes to hangars at various airports
but I cannot imagine anyone actually fueling their aircraft in hangar. IMO
fuelling is an outdoor activity.
----- Original Message -----
From: "rawheels" <rawheels@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 2:09 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Collapsible tank
>
> So this is what I am thinking: I have heard (but not actually seen) that
> some individuals will use a collapsible
Message 5
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The screen should filter the fuel leaving the gascolator. That way if
there
is any dirt in the fuel it will show in the gascolator bowl and not be
hidden up in the supply line.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint
Bazzill
Sent: January 4, 2011 6:42 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator
It is the older ACS gascolator, the screen I am using is the finest one
they
offered. It is pushed up from the bottom and probably filters before
the
output. Would rather have it the other way but if the screen was
blocked
there would be limited amount of fuel in the sump. Thanks for the
reply.
Clint
Working on 1300 hours.
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator
> From: nahsikhs@elltel.net
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 10:20:48 -0800
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> [quote="clint_bazzill(at)hotmail."]Question,
>
> Is the filter screen on gascolators before or after the sump?
>
>
> Clint=EF=BD
>
>
> Moving to Cameron Park.
>
> > [b]
>
>
> The screen is after the sump.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV
> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325574#325574
>
>
>
>
&========================
>
>
>
Message 6
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I think I've accomplished what I wanted when I made my first post on the
subject and that is to get everyone to consider the pros and cons of
filters, locations, pumps etc. I heartily agree that the best you can ever
do is what feels best for you. My considerations, flying conditions etc
will probably never be the same as everyone else's and previous training
makes me want to do things in a particular manner.
Thanks for all the replies
I have the prop fitted now on the 912 install that leaves me with one
connection for the oil, two fittings for the fuel, wiring and the controls.
Then I can finish the mods to my standard cowl and get back in the air.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mikeperkins
Sent: January 7, 2011 6:42 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator
<michael.perkins@rauland.com>
A fuel filter represents a pressure drop in the system. With the filter
behind the pump, the pump is attempting to pull fuel through the filter.
This increases the possibility of vapor lock with the decreased pressure
between the fuel pump and filter. On the other hand, with the filter in
front of the pump, fuel pressure between the pump and filter is increased,
decreasing the possibility of vapor lock.
In general, fuel pumps should be as close to the fuel source as possible
because pumps are better at pushing fuel than pulling it. (Air will expand
when fuel/air bubbles are being pulled more than gasoline will expand. You
can try this yourself with a Facet fuel pump on the bench - you may get 30
GPH of fuel at 4 PSI out of it, but you won't get 30 GPH of air at 4 PSI out
of it.)
One rationale for putting the filter behind the pump is that if the filter
leaks or a connection to the filter leaks, then fuel just dribbles out
instead of spraying out. I think the idea is to make sure the fuel system is
maintained so it is intact.
With either arrangement, there are risks and benefits. It's just a matter of
what factor you assign to all of them.
Mike Perkins
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325936#325936
Message 7
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One of the things I've gotten out of this list is a real liking for a header
tank which can double as a gascolator... a great big place for water and
precipitate to sink out of the way and totally safe.
My header, in behind the panel feeds fron the top and fuel flows out about
an inch above the bottom but there is no way drain it as a sump... I often
wonder how much crap could be in that tank.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: January 5, 2011 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gascolator
On 1/4/2011 8:02 PM, Noel R.C. Loveys wrote:
The screen in the gascolator should be of a size small enough to block
particles that may affect the fuel pump. Fuel filters... If you feel you
need one should be between the pump and the carb... fuel filters ( true
filters ) should not be used upstream of the pumps. If large commercial
airliners and small GA planes don't have filtration upstream of pumps and it
is actually illegal to install such filtration, then why is it that The 'Fox
needs it?
I know I'm in for another roasting on this one but I feel my training holds
true for this.
How about a mild butt-warming? I know filtration wants to be downstream of
the pump, but the 2-stroke Mikuni pulse pump puts out pathetic pressure (2-4
psi) and is designed to provide that pressure direct to the carbs. Not only
that, but any particulates in the fuel will cause the pump to fail anyway.
So I put the filter at the highest pressure spot I could, which is at the
bottom of the fuel system where I have a potential 1-2 psi of head pressure
to push fuel through. Why not install more filters and an electric fuel
pump? Simplicity. KISS. Less stuff to fail.
What if the filter clogs? Well, I try to keep my fuel clean, use a HUGE
gascolator, (the header tank,) sump religiously, and use a HUGE fuel filter,
situated so any heavy particulates sink away from the filter and any light
ones float away. I also clean it once a year. As the falling man said as he
passed the 30th floor, "Been great so far!"
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
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