Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:24 AM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/21/11 (great bear)
2. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: Composites and mold work (Noel Loveys)
3. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: Composites and mold work (Guy Buchanan)
4. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: Composites and mold work (Lynn Matteson)
5. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Composites and mold work (Lowell Fitt)
6. 11:26 AM - Re: Composites and mold work (WurlyBird)
7. 01:07 PM - FW: Bird listening to Ray Charles---this is hilarious!! (Don & Betty Stevenson)
8. 08:52 PM - Re: Re: Composites and mold work (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 01/21/11 |
I have built a Glasair 1 TD and do have a little experience in making one off
parts and parts from scratch...I use the west epoxy system...you can order the
kit with the proper proportioning pumps from aircraft spruce...the west system
dries clear and usually cures overnight at 70 degrees and come in pints quarts
or gallons I believe..you can order the catalyst with fast or slow set formula
depending on the temps that you are working on and the pot life you need....its
by far the best stuff I have used and the shelf life is years. As far as mold
release I have used automotive wax with good results...its releases fine and
cleanup is easy...most people building glass composite aircraft so not use gel
coat...its heavy and messy and there are primer fillers that do a better job and
provide better paint adhesion....when glasair first came out with their kits
builders found that the only way to get the paint to stay on fiberglass was to
sand the factory gelcoat off to the raw glass and prime and paint from there.
For fillets and corners I used automotive body filler (bondo) or milled
fiberglass fibers and resin..depending on the strength and location...bondo
worked great and makes nice fillets when have to build many layups for big jobs
and milled fibers (make your own by cutting scraps offiberglass cloth into
little pieces) for little parts that cannot have or will not need many layers
of glass such as fairings speed cuffs...ect...I hope this helps a little....work
with the little parts at first and I am sure you will find that this is easier
than you thought....Gary
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Composites and mold work |
Sharp corners in composites usually translates into a place where cracks can
originate. The same can be true of aluminium which was the major problem
with the old comet airliner. The windows were all nice square units which
often cracked.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of WurlyBird
Sent: January 22, 2011 2:21 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Composites and mold work
<james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Thanks for the great information. Here is the first followup question.
What does baking a composite part do to the build up?
Does heating the resin while it is curing cause it to more thoroughly cure?
>From the way you phrased it it sounds like if you expect your part to be
exposed to 200 deg in use then it should be baked at a minimum of 200 deg
during build up, is this about right?
I do plan on leaving some of the parts natural. If I get the HKS when I get
home I am going to need a new instrument panel and I figure it might as well
be carbon or carbon/kevlar. Light, functional, and sexy, you cant beat it.
With the Kitfox being as low tech and old school as it is, I anticipate that
the carbon on the dash will look a little out of place so there will need to
be a little carbon here and a little there just to balance it out
aesthetically. I am conceiving a part that will be a LOT of sharp corners
but I plan on getting into bagging and maybe even infusion. If the part I
have in my head works out I will be telling you all about it, until then it
is hush hush.
In case anyone else has been toying with the idea of bagging but can not
find a reasonable set up, check this out:
http://www.veneersupplies.com/
http://www.joewoodworker.com/
Joe Woodworker has designed and has free plans for venturi style vacuum
press and vennersupplies sells the kit. This set up has the benefit of
having a vacuum reservoir that can easily be made a little larger and even
as published should be great for dash sized projects.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments,
now she lies in wait
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327856#327856
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Composites and mold work |
On 1/21/2011 9:51 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
> Does heating the resin while it is curing cause it to more thoroughly cure?
From the way you phrased it it sounds like if you expect your part to be exposed
to 200 deg in use then it should be baked at a minimum of 200 deg during build
up, is this about right?
Perfect.
> Joe Woodworker has designed and has free plans for venturi style vacuum press
and vennersupplies sells the kit. This set up has the benefit of having a vacuum
reservoir that can easily be made a little larger and even as published should
be great for dash sized projects.
>
I did the verturi thing once and it required an ENORMOUS amount of air
which I didn't have. I got a surplus vacuum pump instead.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Composites and mold work |
I bought the air compressor-powered vacuum bagging kit and have yet
to finish the completion of the pump. I got mine over a year ago,
after seeing one that a friend built from one of He likes the way it
works, but cautioned me that using the bagging system....any bagging
system....is very costly in materials. He said that the raw materials
used up and thrown away counts up, and he found that he doesn't use
his bagging method as much since he discovered that. Just be aware of
the cost of doing vacuum bagging, and see if you really need to "bag
it" or if it just sounds like a really cool thing to do....like I
did. : )
By the way, I bought my kit when I was thinking of using it to make a
pair of skis, then went in another direction. I will finish the
vacuum pump one of these days, and then actually use it, but the
cost of the supplies that are scrapped during its use should justify
the use. If you can make the part light without bagging, that part
will be a lot cheaper.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying...1078+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)
On Jan 22, 2011, at 12:51 AM, WurlyBird wrote:
> <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> Thanks for the great information. Here is the first followup
> question.
>
> What does baking a composite part do to the build up?
>
> Does heating the resin while it is curing cause it to more
> thoroughly cure? From the way you phrased it it sounds like if you
> expect your part to be exposed to 200 deg in use then it should be
> baked at a minimum of 200 deg during build up, is this about right?
>
> I do plan on leaving some of the parts natural. If I get the HKS
> when I get home I am going to need a new instrument panel and I
> figure it might as well be carbon or carbon/kevlar. Light,
> functional, and sexy, you cant beat it. With the Kitfox being as
> low tech and old school as it is, I anticipate that the carbon on
> the dash will look a little out of place so there will need to be a
> little carbon here and a little there just to balance it out
> aesthetically. I am conceiving a part that will be a LOT of sharp
> corners but I plan on getting into bagging and maybe even
> infusion. If the part I have in my head works out I will be
> telling you all about it, until then it is hush hush.
>
> In case anyone else has been toying with the idea of bagging but
> can not find a reasonable set up, check this out:
>
> http://www.veneersupplies.com/
> http://www.joewoodworker.com/
>
> Joe Woodworker has designed and has free plans for venturi style
> vacuum press and vennersupplies sells the kit. This set up has the
> benefit of having a vacuum reservoir that can easily be made a
> little larger and even as published should be great for dash sized
> projects.
>
> --------
> James
> Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
> 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments,
> now she lies in wait
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327856#327856
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Composites and mold work |
Just a couple of comments on the project. I have a lot of experience -
amateur type - with composites and getting it right takes some real effort
and perfect? - lots of remakes. I can't say, I have ever gotten a part out
of the mold perfect. Most of mine are for painting and a little micro goes
a long way for nice. Not to discourage, but with the cost of the equipment,
materials and time, it seems to me that a one off part would be less
expensive if farmed out to a pro shop. If you like the challenge, as I do,
or like to learn new skills, then go for it, but in reality plan on paying a
premium for the home brew parts.
One idea for the sharp edged parts, though. I think a female mold would
work best and if the part is not too large, I have experimented with a very
soft silicone rubber sheet as the vacuum bagging material. The typical
material will not stretch enough to get into the tightest corners and as Guy
suggested, the glass doesn't like to bend. One way to help a bit there is
to cut the cloth on a bias. Then there is the issue of getting all the air
out of the corners. A vacuum bagging system will remove all air that it has
access to. Air trapped in a sharp corner will be there to stay, unless
there is clear access for it's escape into the vacuum - not sure how I would
manage that.
You also mentioned the infusion method. I think as Guy suggested, this
technique would require a good quality vacuum pump. A venturi wouldn't give
the vacuum you will need to move the resin. I don't know what you are
planning, planning but this would help in the sharp corner area unless it
would be a box as I can't visualize the resin flow. Something long like a
lift strut fairing might work.
Also keep in mind that the way you handle the release film (type) and
bleeder ply will determine the density of the part and if there are
pinholes - not desirable in your panel lay-up. An example of this is the
fuel tanks we use - all vacuum bagged and pinholes galore to the point of
the need for sloshing to keep the gas in.
Lowell
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Guy Buchanan" <gebuchanan@cox.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Composites and mold work
>
> On 1/21/2011 9:51 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
>> Does heating the resin while it is curing cause it to more thoroughly
>> cure? From the way you phrased it it sounds like if you expect your part
>> to be exposed to 200 deg in use then it should be baked at a minimum of
>> 200 deg during build up, is this about right?
> Perfect.
>> Joe Woodworker has designed and has free plans for venturi style vacuum
>> press and vennersupplies sells the kit. This set up has the benefit of
>> having a vacuum reservoir that can easily be made a little larger and
>> even as published should be great for dash sized projects.
>>
> I did the verturi thing once and it required an ENORMOUS amount of air
> which I didn't have. I got a surplus vacuum pump instead.
>
> Guy Buchanan
> Ramona, CA
> Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Composites and mold work |
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> see if you really need to "bag
> it" or if it just sounds like a really cool thing to do....like I
> did. : )
C'mon, we are talking about not structural parts for a Kitfox. It is not necessary
to use composites at all much less vacuum bagging. It is definitely because
it sounds like the cool thing to do. :D I have a tendency to have visions
of grandeur with my projects, especially sitting here in a crappy country dreaming
about it for a year! I have been interested in vacuum bagging for as long
as I have understood what composites are good for. I keep adding to my "wish
list" at Aircraft Spruce and it certainly costs noticeably more to bag anything.
I am also trying to figure out how much I will actually use the system
as it is only NEEDED for one idea I have right now and all I have come up with
besides making the occasional part is using it to instantly marinate meats.
I can hear it now;
friend- "What is James doing in the garage?"
wife- "Marinating the chicken."
now confused friend- "With an air compressor?!?!"
[Shocked]
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments,
now she lies in wait
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327910#327910
Message 7
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| Subject: | FW: Bird listening to Ray Charles---this is hilarious!! |
--- On Sat, 1/22/11, Bruce McGivern <bgmcgivern@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Fr =0A=0A - =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AMay your day be as hap
py as this bird in the video.- Please watch and enjoy.--Bird listenin
g to Ray Charles---this is hilarious! =0A - =0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Composites and mold work |
On 1/22/2011 9:59 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> By the way, I bought my kit when I was thinking of using it to make a
> pair of skis, then went in another direction. I will finish the vacuum
> pump one of these days, and then actually use it, but the cost of the
> supplies that are scrapped during its use should justify the use. If
> you can make the part light without bagging, that part will be a lot
> cheaper.
HAHAHAHAHA! C'mon Lynn. When did ANYTHING in aviation get justified on a
cost basis. We do it because it's COOL. Way COOL. (Besides, who can pass
up an opportunity to get more tools.)
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
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