Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:08 AM - club plane ELSAs (Malcolm Brubaker)
2. 08:11 AM - Re: club plane ELSAs (Guy Buchanan)
3. 10:18 AM - Re: Gascolator (ronlee)
4. 12:59 PM - Re: club plane ELSAs (Zimmermans)
5. 01:27 PM - Re: Gascolator (Tommy Walker)
6. 03:39 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (Noel Loveys)
7. 03:39 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (Noel Loveys)
8. 04:53 PM - Re: club plane ELSAs (Guy Buchanan)
9. 06:07 PM - Re: club plane ELSAs (Malcolm Brubaker)
10. 06:56 PM - Re: club plane ELSAs (Zimmermans)
Message 1
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| Subject: | club plane ELSAs |
There has been a lot of discussion, mostly positive, and it has all been
=0Ainteresting, much of it very helpful. =0A=0AFrom the Sport Pilot Instruc
tors forum Phil Dietro, Arlynn McMahon, and a few =0Aothers have discussed
the options they have utilized. Thom Riddle has posted =0Asome inciteful qu
estions and possible solutions. =0A=0AThis is what we are looking for : oth
er "outside the box" forward thinking =0Agroups or individuals who can help
us generate a solution to the growing problem =0Aof SPCFI shortages and th
e costs involved in being able to operate. =0A=0AArlynn has offered to shar
e info regarding how an SPCFI might go about =0A"affordably" operating with
out the backing of a "regular" flight school. This is =0Anot a sarcastic st
atement. =0A=0APhil mentioned the addition of PPC & WS training - are there
existing LODAs in =0Aforce to provide for that training in ELSAs? =0A=0AHa
ving come up through the ranks of Ultralight to Sport Pilot, I also know ma
ny =0Anew UL flyers who are desperate for training they can't get. =0A=0AOu
r focus is how to go about establishing an LLC and fractional ownership pla
n =0Acentered around ELSA craft & EABs to use for the additional purpose of
training =0ASP & UL student pilots; and making this information available
to all SPCFIs. =0A=0AI have priced even the USED (aka- well flown) SLSAs, t
here aren't many =0Aavailable, and they are still in the $70,000 to $100,00
0 range. =0A=0ANot exactly within the "affordable" range of even a school w
ith more than 1 =0Ainstructor. =0A=0AThere has been response from the NAFI
(National Association of Flight =0AInstructors) that has been on a positive
note. They are very interested in =0Aworking on this solution as well. =0A
=0AAs a group, Sport Pilot may simply need to do the same thing that other
=0Aminorities have done in the past, Stand up, be counted, be recognized, a
nd not =0Atake NO for an answer. It will take time. We all realize this. Bu
t with more of =0Aus working toward the same goal, we will obtain it sooner
rather than later.-=0A=0A-Malcolm Brubaker =0AMichigan Sport=0APilot R
epair =0ALSRM-A, PPC, WS=0A(989)513-3022 =0A=0A=0A =0A_____________________
_______________________________________________________________=0ANo need t
o miss a message. Get email on-the-go =0Awith Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get s
tarted.=0Ahttp://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: club plane ELSAs |
On 2/15/2011 6:06 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:
> This is what we are looking for : other "outside the box" forward
> thinking groups or individuals who can help us generate a solution to
> the growing problem of SPCFI shortages and the costs involved in being
> able to operate.
I don't know how outside the box this is, but the following comes to mind:
* In San Diego most flying is done within clubs, where investors
and/or members own the planes and lease them back. Rates run $91
for a Sting Sport, not really what you'd call affordable, but way
cheaper than renting a 172. ($135)
* What the world needs is the $20-$50k LSA they were promised. If I
remember correctly the Rotax 582 is ASTM certified just like the
912. I also seem to remember that it's about $12k cheaper. An
airframe designed specifically for the 582, and specifically for
dual training should be able to be made very inexpensively. Think
a lightened Coyote S-6ES with dacron sails. Having flown behind
the 582 for years I think it a wonderful engine perfectly suited
for training. You handle the EGT issue with training and an EIS
with a BIG RED WARNING LIGHT. The idea is not to buy one of these
things, or even a few, but to get investors interested and try to
build 100. Similar things have been done in the past in yachting.
* I've often wondered if the yacht club or sailing club model
couldn't be applied to aircraft. Most of us get involved in flying
for the social part of it, yet the only place to socialize is
within someone's hangar or at a wretched restaurant somewhere. Why
not build a hangar/club facility where people would gather / hang
/ eat / drink and socialize. You could tie it to a flying club
with rental aircraft or just as a stand-alone within the airport.
Either way it would be the "place to be", a wonderful enticement
for new flyers, and a way to reduce that 80% flight training
drop-out rate AOPA keeps talking about.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Message 3
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My experience with outboard boat engines has proved that a leak before the fuel
pump will cause an engine stoppage in short order. If you are pulling fuel from
a tank on the bottom of a boat a very small leak in the line will suck in air
and the engine will starve for fuel. Believe me the leak does not have to be
very big either. Anything that will cause a slight vacuum on the suction side
of your fuel pump is a prescription for engine stoppage should any leak develop.
I agree we fly experimental and can do anything we wish. Some techniques
though are better followed that have a proven track record.....
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331137#331137
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: club plane ELSAs |
When I went to Light Sport I sold my Cessna & bought a 7AC Champ. It is
a legal LS plane plus it is an antique. They are there for $25,000 on
up. We have several in this area that are club owned. I will never live
long enough to see a new LS that I consider affordable. My 2 cents
worth.
Jim
Lake Elmo MN
Series 5 under construction
0-200 powered
-----
On 2/15/2011 6:06 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:
This is what we are looking for : other "outside the box" forward
thinking groups or individuals who can help us generate a solution to
the growing problem of SPCFI shortages and the costs involved in being
able to operate.
I don't know how outside the box this is, but the following comes to
mind:
a.. In San Diego most flying is done within clubs, where investors
and/or members own the planes and lease them back. Rates run $91 for a
Sting Sport, not really what you'd call affordable, but way cheaper than
renting a 172. ($135)
b.. What the world needs is the $20-$50k LSA they were promised. If
I remember correctly the Rotax 582 is ASTM certified just like the 912.
I also seem to remember that it's about $12k cheaper. An airframe
designed specifically for the 582, and specifically for dual training
should be able to be made very inexpensively. Think a lightened Coyote
S-6ES with dacron sails. Having flown behind the 582 for years I think
it a wonderful engine perfectly suited for training. You handle the EGT
issue with training and an EIS with a BIG RED WARNING LIGHT. The idea is
not to buy one of these things, or even a few, but to get investors
interested and try to build 100. Similar things have been done in the
past in yachting.
c.. I've often wondered if the yacht club or sailing club model
couldn't be applied to aircraft. Most of us get involved in flying for
the social part of it, yet the only place to socialize is within
someone's hangar or at a wretched restaurant somewhere. Why not build a
hangar/club facility where people would gather / hang / eat / drink and
socialize. You could tie it to a flying club with rental aircraft or
just as a stand-alone within the airport. Either way it would be the
"place to be", a wonderful enticement for new flyers, and a way to
reduce that 80% flight training drop-out rate AOPA keeps talking about.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Message 5
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Ronlee
I agree with you. All car manufacturers, as far as I know, have moved the fuel
pump to the gas tank now. I believe it is because it is better to push fuel
than it is to suck it. Remember when the fuel pump was driven by an engine mounted
mechanical pump?
There was an excellent topic on this in the Matronics Zenith list several years
ago. One of the things mentioned to prove this was, take two straws, place one
in a glass of water and the other outside the glass. Put both straws in your
mouth and suck.... Guess which one has the least amount of friction? So,
it seems that pushing, instead of sucking, is the best method for moving fuel
through a line. I don't have the exact quote on this example, but I could probably
find it if anyone is interested.
--------
Tommy Walker
N8701 - Anniston, AL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331159#331159
Message 6
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Having the pump in the tank to push the fuel is a great idea but there is
another reason. The gas is also a great cooling device for the pump. That
means the pumps last longer and works more efficiently.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tommy Walker
Sent: February 15, 2011 5:55 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator
Ronlee
I agree with you. All car manufacturers, as far as I know, have moved the
fuel pump to the gas tank now. I believe it is because it is better to push
fuel than it is to suck it. Remember when the fuel pump was driven by an
engine mounted mechanical pump?
There was an excellent topic on this in the Matronics Zenith list several
years ago. One of the things mentioned to prove this was, take two straws,
place one in a glass of water and the other outside the glass. Put both
straws in your mouth and suck.... Guess which one has the least amount of
friction? So, it seems that pushing, instead of sucking, is the best method
for moving fuel through a line. I don't have the exact quote on this
example, but I could probably find it if anyone is interested.
--------
Tommy Walker
N8701 - Anniston, AL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331159#331159
Message 7
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I forgot to say that some of those pumps attain 60 psi pressure on the line
to feed EFI systems and they have no filters between them and the gas...
only a screen to keep the lumps out. As an added feature the pumps usually
are integrated with the tank float for the fuel gauge. I've yet to hear of
a tank exploding because of the pump.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tommy Walker
Sent: February 15, 2011 5:55 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator
Ronlee
I agree with you. All car manufacturers, as far as I know, have moved the
fuel pump to the gas tank now. I believe it is because it is better to push
fuel than it is to suck it. Remember when the fuel pump was driven by an
engine mounted mechanical pump?
There was an excellent topic on this in the Matronics Zenith list several
years ago. One of the things mentioned to prove this was, take two straws,
place one in a glass of water and the other outside the glass. Put both
straws in your mouth and suck.... Guess which one has the least amount of
friction? So, it seems that pushing, instead of sucking, is the best method
for moving fuel through a line. I don't have the exact quote on this
example, but I could probably find it if anyone is interested.
--------
Tommy Walker
N8701 - Anniston, AL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331159#331159
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: club plane ELSAs |
On 2/15/2011 10:16 AM, Zimmermans wrote:
> When I went to Light Sport I sold my Cessna & bought a 7AC Champ. It
> is a legal LS plane plus it is an antique. They are there for $25,000
> on up. We have several in this area that are club owned. I will never
> live long enough to see a new LS that I consider affordable. My 2
> cents worth.
Good idea Jim. SportAviation had a recent article on a bunch of cheap
certificated LSAs: Chiefs, Champs, Luscombs, Ercoupes, Cessna 120/140,
PA 15/17, Taylorcraft BC-12. All these were claimed to be below $40k and
many were below $30k. Don't know if they'd be insurable for flight
instruction, though.
*_Guy Buchanan_*
Scoutmaster -- Troop 680
760.809.6145
scoutmaster@troop680.org <mailto:scoutmaster@troop680.org>
www.troop680.org
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: club plane ELSAs |
--- Jim can- i please talk with one of thos club plane owners?-
- we need a =0Atemplit-so we can make it easer for people to start club
s and-teach people to =0Afly?--- mal-- call any time =0A=0A-M
alcolm Brubaker =0AMichigan Sport=0APilot Repair =0ALSRM-A, PPC, WS=0A(989)
513-3022 =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Zimmermans
<jezim@pro-ns.net>=0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, February 1
5, 2011 1:16:34 PM=0ASubject: Re: Kitfox-List: club plane ELSAs=0A=0A=0AWhe
n I went to Light Sport I sold my Cessna & bought a 7AC Champ. It is a lega
l =0ALS plane plus it is an antique. They are there for $25,000 on up. We h
ave =0Aseveral in this area that are club owned. I will never live long eno
ugh to see a =0Anew LS that I consider affordable. My 2 cents worth.=0AJim
=0ALake Elmo MN=0ASeries 5 under construction=0A0-200 powered=0A----- =0A>
=0A>On 2/15/2011 6:06 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: =0A>This is what we are l
ooking for : other "outside the box" forward thinking =0A>groups or individ
uals who can help us generate a solution to the growing problem =0A>of SPCF
I shortages and the costs involved in being able to operate. =0A>=0AI don't
know how outside the box this is, but the following comes to mind:=0A=0A
* In San Diego most flying is done within clubs, where investors and/or
members =0Aown the planes and lease them back. Rates run $91 for a Sting Sp
ort, not really =0Awhat you'd call affordable, but way cheaper than renting
a 172. ($135) =0A=0A* What the world needs is the $20-$50k LSA they wer
e promised. If I remember =0Acorrectly the Rotax 582 is ASTM certified just
like the 912. I also seem to =0Aremember that it's about $12k cheaper. An
airframe designed specifically for the =0A582, and specifically for dual tr
aining should be able to be made very =0Ainexpensively. Think a lightened C
oyote S-6ES with dacron sails. Having flown =0Abehind the 582 for years I t
hink it a wonderful engine perfectly suited for =0Atraining. You handle the
EGT issue with training and an EIS with a BIG RED =0AWARNING LIGHT. The id
ea is not to buy one of these things, or even a few, but to =0Aget investor
s interested and try to build 100. Similar things have been done in =0Athe
past in yachting. =0A=0A* I've often wondered if the yacht club or saili
ng club model couldn't be =0Aapplied to aircraft. Most of us get involved i
n flying for the social part of =0Ait, yet the only place to socialize is w
ithin someone's hangar or at a wretched =0Arestaurant somewhere. Why not bu
ild a hangar/club facility where people would =0Agather / hang / eat / drin
k and socialize. You could tie it to a flying club =0Awith rental aircraft
or just as a stand-alone within the airport. Either way it =0Awould be the
"place to be", a wonderful enticement for new flyers, and a way to =0Areduc
e that 80% flight training drop-out rate AOPA keeps talking about. Guy =0AB
uchanan=0ARamona, CA=0AKitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and gro
unded=0A=0A=0A=0A =0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Lis
t">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matr
onics.com=0A href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matr
=================== =0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: club plane ELSAs |
I don't personally know them. They are a group of people on our field
that were already pilots and bought a plane to share. They don't give
instruction or rent it out.
----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Brubaker
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:02
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: club plane ELSAs
Jim can i please talk with one of thos club plane owners? we
need a templit so we can make it easer for people to start clubs and
teach people to fly? mal call any time
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: Zimmermans <jezim@pro-ns.net>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 1:16:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: club plane ELSAs
When I went to Light Sport I sold my Cessna & bought a 7AC Champ. It
is a legal LS plane plus it is an antique. They are there for $25,000 on
up. We have several in this area that are club owned. I will never live
long enough to see a new LS that I consider affordable. My 2 cents
worth.
Jim
Lake Elmo MN
Series 5 under construction
0-200 powered
-----
On 2/15/2011 6:06 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:
This is what we are looking for : other "outside the box" forward
thinking groups or individuals who can help us generate a solution to
the growing problem of SPCFI shortages and the costs involved in being
able to operate.
I don't know how outside the box this is, but the following comes to
mind:
a.. In San Diego most flying is done within clubs, where investors
and/or members own the planes and lease them back. Rates run $91 for a
Sting Sport, not really what you'd call affordable, but way cheaper than
renting a 172. ($135)
b.. What the world needs is the $20-$50k LSA they were promised.
If I remember correctly the Rotax 582 is ASTM certified just like the
912. I also seem to remember that it's about $12k cheaper. An airframe
designed specifically for the 582, and specifically for dual training
should be able to be made very inexpensively. Think a lightened Coyote
S-6ES with dacron sails. Having flown behind the 582 for years I think
it a wonderful engine perfectly suited for training. You handle the EGT
issue with training and an EIS with a BIG RED WARNING LIGHT. The idea is
not to buy one of these things, or even a few, but to get investors
interested and try to build 100. Similar things have been done in the
past in yachting.
c.. I've often wondered if the yacht club or sailing club model
couldn't be applied to aircraft. Most of us get involved in flying for
the social part of it, yet the only place to socialize is within
someone's hangar or at a wretched restaurant somewhere. Why not build a
hangar/club facility where people would gather / hang / eat / drink and
socialize. You could tie it to a flying club with rental aircraft or
just as a stand-alone within the airport. Either way it would be the
"place to be", a wonderful enticement for new flyers, and a way to
reduce that 80% flight training drop-out rate AOPA keeps talking about.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
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