---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/27/11: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:53 AM - Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? (Patrick Reilly) 2. 12:29 PM - Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? (floran higgins) 3. 12:44 PM - Re: Kolb-List: club planes? (Michael Gibbs) 4. 03:07 PM - Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? (Weiss Richard) 5. 04:56 PM - Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? (Ron Liebmann) 6. 05:18 PM - Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? (John W. Hart) 7. 06:52 PM - Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? (floran higgins) 8. 07:07 PM - Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? (Weiss Richard) 9. 07:35 PM - Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? (Lowell Fitt) 10. 09:55 PM - looking for smooth cowling for kitfox IV 1200 (diverjoe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? From: Patrick Reilly Malcolm, Amen, FAA in my book doesn't stand for Federal Aviation Agency. I can't say what it stands for here. It doesn't foster flying or aircraft ownership. Most government rules and regulations are a parasitic drag on what ever the activity is they are involved in. The EAA's goal is supposed to be to further develope private aviation, hopefully in the "Expirimental" area. More of the EAA's finances need to be directed at "eliminateing" FAA involvement in private aviation.not building a bigger monument in Oshkosh. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuilt Rockford, IL On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: > just a bit of history > > Malcolm Brubaker > Michigan Sport > Pilot Repair > LSRM-A, PPC, WS > (989)513-3022 > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > *From:* "Ron @ KFHU" > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: club planes? > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron @ KFHU" > > > Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it > may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete > with 100% left to do kinda thing. > However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can > down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging > recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA > or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is > strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their > pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue. > I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking > flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the > imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and > the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By > all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it > is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid > and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner > aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft > and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come > about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by > going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all > right now. > > > ---- Malcolm Brubaker wrote: > > ============ > We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All > about flight > instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an > > instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory > is > viable and there is FAA approval to do this. > > What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general > > format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their > own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a > > person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 > corporation. > These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like > the > ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying. > > This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as > the > instructor. > > The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not > that > far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option > than > the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When > a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up. > > What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and > > develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was > turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place > Kolb > classic could qualify. > Malcolm Brubaker > Michigan Sport > Pilot Repair > LSRM-A, PPC, WS > (989)513-3022 > > > ________________________________ > From: Pat Ladd > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe > > > Hi Mike, > << I added my own extension>> > > Nice neat job. > > P============= > > > -- > kugelair.com > > > * > > * > > -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:21 PM PST US From: "floran higgins" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? I agree also. I spent nearly my whole adult life in general aviation. The best thing that could happen to general avaition is to abolish the FAA. It is the most overstaffed, overpaid, and underworked group of people I k now. Floran Higgins Helena Mt. Speedster 912 ULS ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Reilly To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 6:49 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? Malcolm, Amen, FAA in my book doesn't stand for Federal Aviation Agency =2E I can't say what it stands for here. It doesn't foster flying or airc raft ownership. Most government rules and regulations are a parasitic dra g on what ever the activity is they are involved in. The EAA's goal is su pposed to be to further develope private aviation, hopefully in the "Expi rimental" area. More of the EAA's finances need to be directed at "elimi nateing" FAA involvement in private aviation.not building a bigger monume nt in Oshkosh. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuilt Rockford, IL On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: just a bit of history Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: "Ron @ KFHU" To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron @ KFHU" Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU , it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing. However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ra nging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we d o now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue. I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firin g up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the f reedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarm ing degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in p eople owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet t o see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now. ---- Malcolm Brubaker wrote: ============ We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This t heory is viable and there is FAA approval to do this. What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed g eneral format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing t heir own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downl oads a person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 co rporation. These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just l ike the ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying. This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as w ell as the instructor. The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better o ption than the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up. What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the probl em and develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that i t was turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb classic could qualify. Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ________________________________ From: Pat Ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe Hi Mike, << I added my own extension>> Nice neat job. P============== -- kugelair.com arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ttp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL Email by OUTDRS.NET ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:57 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kolb-List: club planes? >...Most government rules and regulations are a parasitic drag on >what ever the activity is they are involved in. Looks like you're right... Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:07:21 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? Gentleman, I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for much more than that. I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every business, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of us who wants to get something done within the system. I think when careful thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce is spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of there to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think something or someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The question to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention. It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. Our safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their atrocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do. IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently underutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possible our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs? Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure, that like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have been avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety management system will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist. To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountable for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers. When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler heads prevail. On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is always in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guys, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are going to have to do better. As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will improve our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do have some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to address. Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experimental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend to drive the system. I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive ideas to fix any of the problems. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior manager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to the senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the ultimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-) On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: > just a bit of history > > Malcolm Brubaker > Michigan Sport > Pilot Repair > LSRM-A, PPC, WS > (989)513-3022 > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: "Ron @ KFHU" > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes? > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron @ KFHU" > > > Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing. > However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue. > I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now. > > > > ---- Malcolm Brubaker wrote: > > ============ > We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight > instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an > instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory is > viable and there is FAA approval to do this. > > What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general > format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their > own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a > person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation. > These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the > ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying. > > This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the > instructor. > > The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that > far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option than > the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When > a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up. > > What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and > develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was > turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb > classic could qualify. > Malcolm Brubaker > Michigan Sport > Pilot Repair > LSRM-A, PPC, WS > (989)513-3022 > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Pat Ladd > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe > > > Hi Mike, > << I added my own extension>> > > Nice neat job. > > P============== > > > > > -- > kugelair.com > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:33 PM PST US From: "Ron Liebmann" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? No flames from me, Rick. I am in complete agreement with you. And, you could not have said it better. Ron Liebmann N55KF FA/TC 15 years From: Weiss Richard Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? Gentleman, I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for much more than that. I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every business, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of us who wants to get something done within the system. I think when careful thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce is spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of there to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think something or someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The question to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention. It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. Our safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their atrocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do. IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently underutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possible our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs? Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure, that like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have been avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety management system will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist. To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountable for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers. When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler heads prevail. On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is always in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guys, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are going to have to do better. As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will improve our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do have some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to address. Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experimental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend to drive the system. I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive ideas to fix any of the problems. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior manager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to the senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the ultimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-) On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: just a bit of history Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: "Ron @ KFHU" To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron @ KFHU" Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing. However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue. I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now. ---- Malcolm Brubaker wrote: ============ We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory is viable and there is FAA approval to do this. What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation. These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying. This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the instructor. The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option than the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up. What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb classic could qualify. Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ________________________________ From: Pat Ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe Hi Mike, << I added my own extension>> Nice neat job. P============== -- kugelair.com face="courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:00 PM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? Rick, I agree. One thing that we need to do, in my opinion, is to do our own safety management. We, as a group, would benefit from less FAA oversight if we could get our accident/incident rate down to, or below, the accident rate of the rest of GA. The only way we can do that is to be our own conformance inspectors and do away with some of our macho, egotistical mind sets. I've had some of those states of mind on occasion. Most aviation accidents are not caused from a single discrepancy, but from a series of minor causal factors, that snowball until situational awareness is lost and the aircraft strikes the planet in an "ungood" manner. Homebuilt aircraft essentially react to these planet strikes in the same manner as certificated aircraft. I'm as guilty as anyone about occasionally letting something fall through the cracks that could adversely affect safety, although I strive to avoid those situations as well as I can. There are lots of folks in the EAA and among homebuilders in general that have myriads of experience and expertise that are more than willing to help in suggesting ways to put things together, to verify that the way something is put together is safe, and to offer flying techniques instruction in aircraft we may not be familiar with. It's going to take a change in our collective attitudes to learn to use all those assets to effect a safety improvement program that results in an acceptable accident rate. John Hart KF IV Wilburton, OK CW4 US Army (Retired) US Army Aviation Safety Officer Course Graduate Commercial Pilot ASEL, ASES, AMEL, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Instrument Airplane and Helicopter CFI AS&MEL, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Instrument Airplane and Helicopter Mechanic Airframe and Powerplant Former FAA Aviation Safety Technician From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weiss Richard Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? Gentleman, I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for much more than that. I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every business, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of us who wants to get something done within the system. I think when careful thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce is spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of there to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think something or someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The question to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention. It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. Our safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their atrocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do. IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently underutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possible our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs? Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure, that like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have been avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety management system will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist. To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountable for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers. When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler heads prevail. On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is always in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guys, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are going to have to do better. As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will improve our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do have some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to address. Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experimental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend to drive the system. I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive ideas to fix any of the problems. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior manager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to the senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the ultimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-) On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: just a bit of history Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: "Ron @ KFHU" Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron @ KFHU" Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing. However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue. I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now. ---- Malcolm Brubaker wrote: ============ We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory is viable and there is FAA approval to do this. What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation. These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying. This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the instructor. The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option than the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up. What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb classic could qualify. Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ________________________________ From: Pat Ladd Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe Hi Mike, << I added my own extension>> Nice neat job. P============== -- kugelair.com face="courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:24 PM PST US From: "floran higgins" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? I would like to make a comment from my viewpoint. When I srarted to fly in Jan 1953 there was two FAA inspectors in Montana =2E One in Helena and one in Billings. Today there is 25 inspectors in th e Helena office and five secretarys I am now retired so I don't know how many there are in Billings. I do know that there is only about 2/3 as man y active pilots and airplanes in Mt now as there was in 1950. I knew some of these FAA people quite well. They have told me that they d o not have enough work to do so they are out nitpicking the flight operat ors so they can write a memo just to justify their positions Floran Higgins Helena, Mt Speedster 912ULS.. ----- Original Message ----- From: Weiss Richard To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? Gentleman, I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for much more than that. I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are cer tainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every bus iness, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of us wh o wants to get something done within the system. I think when careful th ought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce is sp read pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of the re to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to us a nd maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think something o r someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The que stion to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention. It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. Our s afety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their atr ocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do. IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently under utilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current stat e. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possible ou r programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it poss ible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs? Safe ty should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure, th at like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid act s of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have been a voided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong, en gines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety management sy stem will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist. To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountable fo r our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers. Wh en Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take dra conian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler hea ds prevail. On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is always i n question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guys, p rivileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are going to have to do better. As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what othe rs who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will improv e our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding on t heir elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do hav e some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to address =2E Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experimen tal aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend to drive the system. I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just a vi ewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive ideas to fix any of the problems. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman of t he EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior manager /engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to the s enior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the ultim ate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-) On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: just a bit of history Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: "Ron @ KFHU" To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron @ KFHU" Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU , it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing. However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ra nging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we d o now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue. I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firin g up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the f reedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarm ing degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in p eople owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet t o see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now. ---- Malcolm Brubaker wrote: ============ We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This t heory is viable and there is FAA approval to do this. What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed g eneral format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing t heir own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downl oads a person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 co rporation. These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just l ike the ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying. This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as w ell as the instructor. The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better o ption than the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up. What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the probl em and develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that i t was turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb classic could qualify. Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ________________________________ From: Pat Ladd To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe Hi Mike, << I added my own extension>> Nice neat job. P============== -- kugelair.com face="courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Li st href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution Email by OUTDRS.NET ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:56 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? Floran, If that's true, and I have no reason to doubt your word, it's just wrong. Maybe it's time, we the people, do something about it. These things are fixable if our elected officials are made aware of the issues. If they don't fix it, then they get taken care of in the next election. Most important is to be sure the facts are truly the facts. I know in our area, the FAA is spread a little thin, but then guys from Montana may not want to live here, it may be a little too flat for them:-) Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL On Feb 27, 2011, at 9:49 PM, floran higgins wrote: > I would like to make a comment from my viewpoint. > When I srarted to fly in Jan 1953 there was two FAA inspectors in Montana. One in Helena and one in Billings. Today there is 25 inspectors in the Helena office and five secretarys I am now retired so I don't know how many there are in Billings. I do know that there is only about 2/3 as many active pilots and airplanes in Mt now as there was in 1950. > I knew some of these FAA people quite well. They have told me that they do not have enough work to do so they are out nitpicking the flight operators so they can write a memo just to justify their positions > > > Floran Higgins > Helena, Mt > Speedster > 912ULS.. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Weiss Richard > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 4:04 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? > > Gentleman, > > I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for much more than that. > > I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every business, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of us who wants to get something done within the system. I think when careful thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce is spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of there to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think something or someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The question to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention. > > It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. Our safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their atrocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do. > > IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently underutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possible our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs? Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure, that like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have been avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety management system will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist. > > To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountable for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers. When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler heads prevail. > > On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is always in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guys, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are going to have to do better. > > As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will improve our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do have some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to address. Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experimental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend to drive the system. > > I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive ideas to fix any of the problems. > > Rick Weiss > N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS > SkyStar S/N 1 > Port Orange, FL > > PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior manager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to the senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the ultimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-) > > > On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: > >> just a bit of history >> >> Malcolm Brubaker >> Michigan Sport >> Pilot Repair >> LSRM-A, PPC, WS >> (989)513-3022 >> >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ---- >> From: "Ron @ KFHU" >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes? >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron @ KFHU" >> >> >> Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing. >> However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue. >> I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now. >> >> >> >> ---- Malcolm Brubaker wrote: >> >> ============ >> We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight >> instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an >> instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory is >> viable and there is FAA approval to do this. >> >> What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general >> format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their >> own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a >> person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation. >> These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the >> ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying. >> >> This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the >> instructor. >> >> The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that >> far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option than >> the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When >> a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up. >> >> What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and >> develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was >> turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb >> classic could qualify. >> Malcolm Brubaker >> Michigan Sport >> Pilot Repair >> LSRM-A, PPC, WS >> (989)513-3022 >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Pat Ladd >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe >> >> >> Hi Mike, >> << I added my own extension>> >> >> Nice neat job. >> >> P============== >> >> >> >> >> -- >> kugelair.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> face="courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution >> >> > > > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > onics.com > ww.matronics.com/contribution > > > Email by OUTDRS.NET > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:15 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? I have been following this thread and have some thoughts - based on a little experience but I will withhold my opinions. In our area, the FSDO does get involved in Airworthiness Inspections. My first went off as a very good experience with the FAA, but that was over ten years ago. A neighbor had his RV-10 inspected recently with virtually the same result. When we did our emergency landing that destroyed our Model IV and brought the FAA calling, I have to say that what I experienced was professional and actually quite pleasant. All worked as I expected and more. I had done my job - I had all the paperwork, my log book was current as was my medical - he did his. A fellow contributor to the forums is trying to get the Danish version of the FAA to authorize their version of an airworthiness certificate and the hoops he is forced to "fly" through are quite astonishing and his perseverance is quite inspiring. He is having to replace the lift struts, and after he does, he will have to invert the whole airplane and place I.6 tons of sand bags on the wings to prove (to the government) that it is structurally sound. If I understand our regs, if I chose to replace my lift struts with home made ones, all I would have to do is report the major modification and fly off another FAA mandated test period. I put 900 hours on my first Model IV and can't think of a single incident where I was negatively affected or felt constrained by the FAA. Lowell From: John W. Hart Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? Rick, I agree. One thing that we need to do, in my opinion, is to do our own safety management. We, as a group, would benefit from less FAA oversight if we could get our accident/incident rate down to, or below, the accident rate of the rest of GA. The only way we can do that is to be our own conformance inspectors and do away with some of our macho, egotistical mind sets. I've had some of those states of mind on occasion. Most aviation accidents are not caused from a single discrepancy, but from a series of minor causal factors, that snowball until situational awareness is lost and the aircraft strikes the planet in an "ungood" manner. Homebuilt aircraft essentially react to these planet strikes in the same manner as certificated aircraft. I'm as guilty as anyone about occasionally letting something fall through the cracks that could adversely affect safety, although I strive to avoid those situations as well as I can. There are lots of folks in the EAA and among homebuilders in general that have myriads of experience and expertise that are more than willing to help in suggesting ways to put things together, to verify that the way something is put together is safe, and to offer flying techniques instruction in aircraft we may not be familiar with. It's going to take a change in our collective attitudes to learn to use all those assets to effect a safety improvement program that results in an acceptable accident rate. John Hart KF IV Wilburton, OK CW4 US Army (Retired) US Army Aviation Safety Officer Course Graduate Commercial Pilot ASEL, ASES, AMEL, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Instrument Airplane and Helicopter CFI AS&MEL, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Instrument Airplane and Helicopter Mechanic Airframe and Powerplant Former FAA Aviation Safety Technician From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weiss Richard Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? Gentleman, I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for much more than that. I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every business, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of us who wants to get something done within the system. I think when careful thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce is spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of there to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think something or someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The question to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention. It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. Our safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their atrocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do. IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently underutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possible our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs? Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure, that like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have been avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety management system will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist. To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountable for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers. When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler heads prevail. On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is always in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guys, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are going to have to do better. As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will improve our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do have some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to address. Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experimental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend to drive the system. I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive ideas to fix any of the problems. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior manager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to the senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the ultimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-) On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: just a bit of history Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: "Ron @ KFHU" Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes? --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron @ KFHU" Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing. However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue. I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now. ---- Malcolm Brubaker wrote: ============ We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory is viable and there is FAA approval to do this. What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation. These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying. This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the instructor. The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option than the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up. What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb classic could qualify. Malcolm Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair LSRM-A, PPC, WS (989)513-3022 ________________________________ From: Pat Ladd Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe Hi Mike, << I added my own extension>> Nice neat job. P============== -- kugelair.com face="courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhref="http:/ /forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matr onics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:20 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: looking for smooth cowling for kitfox IV 1200 From: "diverjoe" I have a kitfox IV 1200 with the round cowling and would like to changes it to the smooth cowling. does anyone have a good used cowling thay want to part with at a fair price? thanks Joe Sheldon 541-892-7637 jrsheldon@q.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332268#332268 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.