Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:47 AM - Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? (floran higgins)
2. 09:25 AM - Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? (Lowell Fitt)
3. 11:50 AM - FAA (floran higgins)
4. 04:16 PM - Re: Re: Kolb-List: club planes? (Patrick Reilly)
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? |
The FAA is now threatening to severly restrict flying radio controled mod
el airplanes.
Floran Higgins
Helena Mt
Speedster
912ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: Weiss Richard
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes?
Floran,
If that's true, and I have no reason to doubt your word, it's just wron
g. Maybe it's time, we the people, do something about it. These things
are fixable if our elected officials are made aware of the issues. If th
ey don't fix it, then they get taken care of in the next election. Most
important is to be sure the facts are truly the facts.
I know in our area, the FAA is spread a little thin, but then guys from
Montana may not want to live here, it may be a little too flat for them:
-)
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Feb 27, 2011, at 9:49 PM, floran higgins wrote:
I would like to make a comment from my viewpoint.
When I srarted to fly in Jan 1953 there was two FAA inspectors in Mon
tana. One in Helena and one in Billings. Today there is 25 inspectors in
the Helena office and five secretarys I am now retired so I don't know ho
w many there are in Billings. I do know that there is only about 2/3 as m
any active pilots and airplanes in Mt now as there was in 1950.
I knew some of these FAA people quite well. They have told me that th
ey do not have enough work to do so they are out nitpicking the flight op
erators so they can write a memo just to justify their positions
Floran Higgins
Helena, Mt
Speedster
912ULS..
----- Original Message -----
From: Weiss Richard
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes?
Gentleman,
I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two h
our dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for
us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for m
uch more than that.
I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually
in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are
certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviat
ion safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every
business, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of u
s who wants to get something done within the system. I think when carefu
l thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce i
s spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of
there to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to
us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think somethi
ng or someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The
question to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention.
It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the pro
blem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. O
ur safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand ou
t - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have
been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their
atrocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presen
ted by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2
011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before
the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do.
IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently u
nderutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current
state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possibl
e our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it
possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs?
Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure
, that like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid
acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have be
en avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong
, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety managemen
t system will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and str
ong people to fix the problems that exist.
To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountabl
e for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers.
When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take
draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler
heads prevail.
On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not busine
ss. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is alwa
ys in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general pu
blic sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guy
s, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't gi
ve a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it
's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mista
kes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are goin
g to have to do better.
As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs
and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. Bu
t I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to
find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what
others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will im
prove our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding
on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do
have some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsi
ble, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to add
ress. Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experim
ental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only respondin
g to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend
to drive the system.
I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just
a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive idea
s to fix any of the problems.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman
of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior man
ager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to t
he senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the u
ltimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-)
On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:
just a bit of history
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.
net>
Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in
KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is
90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing.
However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking
the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wid
e ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fea
ring the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as
we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to trun
cate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will contin
ue.
I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids aro
und taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped f
iring up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun t
he freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an a
larming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlog
ged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumv
ent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty
of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been
in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have y
et to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective
to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constrain
ts. That is what we need most of all right now.
---- Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal@yahoo.com> wrote:
============
We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All a
bout flight
instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club p
lane so an
instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. Th
is theory is
viable and there is FAA approval to do this.
What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-develop
ed general
format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developi
ng their
own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the d
ownloads a
person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c
3 corporation.
These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers ju
st like the
ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying.
This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be,
as well as the
instructor.
The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582
is not that
far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a bett
er option than
the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently nee
d . When
a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up.
What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the p
roblem and
develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful th
at it was
turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even
a 2 place Kolb
classic could qualify.
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
________________________________
From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe
Hi Mike,
<< I added my own extension>>
Nice neat job.
P==============
--
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st
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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
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ww.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes? |
Florin,
I have not followed this closely, but I think there are issues that have
come forward that would require some additional scrutiny. The example I
am thinking of are the RC commercial ventures that have arisen that use
these airplanes with remotely controlled cameras for commercial aerial
photography. They don't restrict themselves to the typical hobby strips
that have been our mainstay for a generation or so, but will fly over
cities at below FAA minimum heights for the purpose of taking pictures
for commercial purposes. They fly where we do and my guess would be
that they would be virtually invisible. Check this link to one in my
immediate area. http://rcaerialphoto.com/ I Have flown RC and have
strong feelings about the FAA impacting the typical RC hobby, but like
most things, there are envelope pushers and that is often where the
trouble starts. Put a camera in your model Citabria and soon tire of
only getting pictures of the club field.
Lowell
From: floran higgins
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes?
The FAA is now threatening to severly restrict flying radio controled
model airplanes.
Floran Higgins
Helena Mt
Speedster
912ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: Weiss Richard
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes?
Floran,
If that's true, and I have no reason to doubt your word, it's just
wrong. Maybe it's time, we the people, do something about it. These
things are fixable if our elected officials are made aware of the
issues. If they don't fix it, then they get taken care of in the next
election. Most important is to be sure the facts are truly the facts.
I know in our area, the FAA is spread a little thin, but then guys
from Montana may not want to live here, it may be a little too flat for
them:-)
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Feb 27, 2011, at 9:49 PM, floran higgins wrote:
I would like to make a comment from my viewpoint.
When I srarted to fly in Jan 1953 there was two FAA inspectors in
Montana. One in Helena and one in Billings. Today there is 25 inspectors
in the Helena office and five secretarys I am now retired so I don't
know how many there are in Billings. I do know that there is only about
2/3 as many active pilots and airplanes in Mt now as there was in 1950.
I knew some of these FAA people quite well. They have told me that
they do not have enough work to do so they are out nitpicking the flight
operators so they can write a memo just to justify their positions
Floran Higgins
Helena, Mt
Speedster
912ULS..
----- Original Message -----
From: Weiss Richard
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes?
Gentleman,
I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two
hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points
for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count
for much more than that.
I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's
usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but
they are certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about
6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every
airline, every business, every certificate action, actually they work
for everyone of us who wants to get something done within the system. I
think when careful thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible
that the workforce is spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment
they are going out of there to find more work. It is clear they are
paying more attention to us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some
things. I think something or someone is ringing their bell and they
are responding to that. The question to be addressed is what or who is
getting their attention.
It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the
problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental
aircraft. Our safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA
activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few
years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The
AOPA Nall report (less their atrocious commentary on the subject), and
especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation
(checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem.
We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief
for expanding what we want to do.
IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently
underutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their
current state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and
it's possible our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are
misdirected. Is it possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced
the safety programs? Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not
sure it is. I am sure, that like a number of folks on this list, I have
lost friends to stupid acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that
could possibly have been avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft
and things can go wrong, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but
a good safety management system will reduce these tremendously. We need
a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist.
To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then
accountable for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the
air carriers. When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes
starts to take draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups
weigh in and cooler heads prevail.
On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not
business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence
is always in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The
general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us
as rich guys, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will.
They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is
not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every
flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines.
I think we are going to have to do better.
As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned
programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety
record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of
us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we
do and what others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming
the FAA will improve our lot and without a groundswell of a few million
people pounding on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is
here to stay. We do have some control over what form the FAA takes. If
we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find
something else to address. Most of them are not against us, in fact,
many of them fly experimental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do.
They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and
the statistics that tend to drive the system.
I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just
a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive
ideas to fix any of the problems.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman
of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior
manager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas
to the senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into
the ultimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-)
On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:
just a bit of history
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Ron @ KFHU" <captainron1@cox.net>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron @ KFHU"
<captainron1@cox.net>
Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in
KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is
90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing.
However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking
the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a
wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation.
Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time
as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to
truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will
continue.
I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids
around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has
stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because
the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the
FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy
and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a
club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not
reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is
as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the
skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that
makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going
after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all
right now.
---- Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal@yahoo.com> wrote:
============
We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All
about flight
instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club
plane so an
instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly.
This theory is
viable and there is FAA approval to do this.
What I think would really jump start the process is a
pre-developed general
format. One that would be easy for people to follow in
developing their
own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the
downloads a
person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit
401c3 corporation.
These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers
just like the
ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying.
This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be,
as well as the
instructor.
The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a
582 is not that
far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a
better option than
the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently
need . When
a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up.
What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the
problem and
develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful
that it was
turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even
a 2 place Kolb
classic could qualify.
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
________________________________
From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd@btinternet.com>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe
Hi Mike,
<< I added my own extension>>
Nice neat job.
P==============
--
kugelair.com
face="courier
new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
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onics.com
ww.matronics.com/contribution
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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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This has drifted off of the club airplane subject so I am starting a new
subject.
Lowell
If you would check with the AMA about this you would find that they are v
ery concerned about this. The AMA has just reciently had a meeting with t
he FAA about this and came away very concerned.
The reason I brought it up was the old adage " I didn't complain when the
y came for the Jews because I was not a Jew etc." If they can restrict fl
ying the radio controled models, What is next? General Aviation?
This disscussion about the FAA really strikes a raw nerve with me. Some o
f the FAA inspectors are very good people. In fact, a couple of them beca
me very good friends. Others are complete ********.
They get a little authority and it goes to their head and they became lit
tle tin GODs.
Some of you have had good relations with your local FAA inspectors and th
at is how it should be. I have had enought experiences with the bad ones
to sour me on the whole agency.
Floran Higgins
Helena, Mt Speedster
912ULS
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List: club planes? |
Mike, Thanks for the review. I wondered if anybody would catch the pun......
And, if you believe that, I do have the title to the Brooklyn bridge if your
interested in purchasing it.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuilt
Rockford, IL
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net> wrote:
> ...Most government rules and regulations are a parasitic drag on what ever
>> the activity is they are involved in.
>>
>
> Looks like you're right...
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
> Phoenix, AZ
--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
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