---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/17/11: 37 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:54 AM - Re: Wood Fairings (n61kf) 2. 06:14 AM - Re: Re: Gascolator (Lynn Matteson) 3. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: Gascolator (Noel Loveys) 4. 07:43 AM - Re: Gascolator (mikeperkins) 5. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Gascolator (Patrick Reilly) 6. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters (Patrick Reilly) 7. 09:39 AM - Re: Gascolator (subject change) (sourdostan@aol.com) 8. 11:25 AM - 37 degree flares...was Gascolator (Lynn Matteson) 9. 11:26 AM - 37 degree flares...was Gascolator (Lynn Matteson) 10. 01:27 PM - Re: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator (Tom Jones) 11. 03:34 PM - Battery (Patrick Reilly) 12. 03:44 PM - Re: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters (Guy Buchanan) 13. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (subject change) (Guy Buchanan) 14. 04:03 PM - Re: Battery (Lynn Matteson) 15. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (subject change) (Lynn Matteson) 16. 04:26 PM - Re: Battery (Patrick Reilly) 17. 04:27 PM - Re: Battery (Lowell Fitt) 18. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (subject change) (Guy Buchanan) 19. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (subject change) (Patrick Reilly) 20. 04:35 PM - Re: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator (John W. Hart) 21. 04:37 PM - Re: Battery (Patrick Reilly) 22. 05:08 PM - Re: Battery (Weiss Richard) 23. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (subject change) (Lynn Matteson) 24. 05:35 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (subject change) (Lynn Matteson) 25. 05:41 PM - Re: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator (Lynn Matteson) 26. 05:50 PM - Re: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator (Weiss Richard) 27. 06:01 PM - Re: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator (John W. Hart) 28. 06:05 PM - Re: Battery (Paul A. Franz, P.E.) 29. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (subject change) (Paul A. Franz, P.E.) 30. 07:06 PM - Re: Gascolator (subject change) (WurlyBird) 31. 07:13 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (subject change) (Lynn Matteson) 32. 07:35 PM - Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters (WurlyBird) 33. 08:01 PM - Re: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters (Patrick Reilly) 34. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: Gascolator (subject change) (Patrick Reilly) 35. 08:13 PM - Re: Battery (Patrick Reilly) 36. 08:21 PM - Re: Battery (Patrick Reilly) 37. 09:20 PM - Re: Battery (Paul A. Franz, P.E.) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:00 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Wood Fairings From: "n61kf" This light weight plastic fairing might be worth looking into. It would have to be split in order to install on our struts, then foam filled. http://www.streamline.8k.com/ -------- Keith Schneider Red Stewart Airfield Waynesville Ohio KF IV 912ul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337190#337190 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:02 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator Understood, Noel, but I wasn't advocating mixing a 37 and a 45 in the same joint....I was merely wondering why did the aircraft industry adopt the 37=B0 flare, and what is sacred about it? Obviously, the automotive industry has managed to save a few lives using a 45=B0 flare for a couple of years in their brake lines. etc. Not getting any answer that satisfied me, I went looking, and found this: ********************* Background AN stands for "Air Force-Navy Aeronautical Standard" and was an aviation fitting standard developed around WWII. The fitting featured a 37 degree mating angle which provided superior sealing compared to the common 45 degree fittings. The fittings also utilized a higher class of thread quality. Eventually the AN fittings saw widespread military use and a multiple manufacturers began producing the fittings, leading to quality problems. The Joint Industries Council (JIC), an industry organization, sought to standardize the specifications on this type of fitting and created the "JIC" fitting standard, a 37 degree fitting with a slightly lower class of thread quality than the military AN version. The SAE went on to adopt the JIC standard as well. As a result JIC or SAE 37 degree fittings are perfectly interchangeable with AN fittings, and while this may not be acceptable for military aviation use, for automotive use there is no downside other than perhaps mismatched color coordination as JIC fittings are not available in the pretty anodize aluminum colors. However this may be a worthy tradeoff considering the JIC fittings are a fraction of the price of their true "AN" counterparts. We mixed and matched in this article to show you their interchangeability. 3 key facts about AN fittings. Flare angle is 37=B0, not 45=B0 Interchangeable with JIC fittings Divide AN # by 16 to get inches ******************** Apparently some testing was done, and it was determined that the 37=B0 flare will hold more pressure than the 45=B0 flare...just how much more pressure wasn't revealed in what I read, but like a lot of other things, if it's a "little bit better" then the government/military will adopt it as gospel. For myself, I'll accept the fact that the 37 holds more pressure, but will I ever see the need for that pressure in my homebuilt.....when the highest pressure in my plane is the brake lines, and they are made of plastic (nylon)? Just for the record, I use 37=B0 flares for the *2* fittings in my fuel system that require them...gravity feed fuel line to the Rotec TBI, subject to...what?....3 pounds of head pressure? Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) On Apr 16, 2011, at 8:58 AM, Noel Loveys wrote: > > Lynn: > > 37deg allows more sealing surface for the same outside diameter > flare. As > you know it is easy to stretch metal but putting it back is like > adding an > inch tot he 2x4 you just cut too short, next to impossible. If you > put a 45 > deg flare on a 37 deg fitting the flare will have to crumple a bit > to seat. > The crumpling will cause it to leak under low pressure. That was > one of the > things demonstrated to us in AME school. (AME = Aircraft Maintenance > Engineer) > > Trying to put a 37 degree flare on a 45 degree fitting is almost as > bad as > the seat again is reduced inside the fitting. > > Noel > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn > Matteson > Sent: April 15, 2011 3:05 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator > > > Has some rebel out there tried to use a 45=B0 flare on an > *experimental* aircraft?.....hint: notice the word experimental. I > realize that if you have an "real" aircraft part with a 37=B0 flare on > it, you have to match it, but otherwise what is sacred about 37=B0? > (other than selling us a special tool) > > Lynn Matteson ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:17 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator The reason I suspect outside of having more sealing surface, is what you mentioned about not stretching the tubing as far and therefore not as susceptible to cracking. I also noticed the 45 degree pipe flare doesn't use or at least I haven't seen one use a sleeve inside the B-Nut. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: April 17, 2011 10:40 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator Understood, Noel, but I wasn't advocating mixing a 37 and a 45 in the same joint....I was merely wondering why did the aircraft industry adopt the 37 flare, and what is sacred about it? Obviously, the automotive industry has managed to save a few lives using a 45 flare for a couple of years in their brake lines. etc. Not getting any answer that satisfied me, I went looking, and found this: ********************* Background AN stands for "Air Force-Navy Aeronautical Standard" and was an aviation fitting standard developed around WWII. The fitting featured a 37 degree mating angle which provided superior sealing compared to the common 45 degree fittings. The fittings also utilized a higher class of thread quality. Eventually the AN fittings saw widespread military use and a multiple manufacturers began producing the fittings, leading to quality problems. The Joint Industries Council (JIC), an industry organization, sought to standardize the specifications on this type of fitting and created the "JIC" fitting standard, a 37 degree fitting with a slightly lower class of thread quality than the military AN version. The SAE went on to adopt the JIC standard as well. As a result JIC or SAE 37 degree fittings are perfectly interchangeable with AN fittings, and while this may not be acceptable for military aviation use, for automotive use there is no downside other than perhaps mismatched color coordination as JIC fittings are not available in the pretty anodize aluminum colors. However this may be a worthy tradeoff considering the JIC fittings are a fraction of the price of their true "AN" counterparts. We mixed and matched in this article to show you their interchangeability. 3 key facts about AN fittings. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:36 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator From: "mikeperkins" Here are some inexpensive 37.5 degree flaring tools: $55 - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Standard-Flaring-Tool-37-Degree-AN,2931.html $40 - http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23332-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000X4K9KO/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_a $16 - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Degree-Flaring-Tool/dp/B004FEJF2Q I have one similar to the $16 version and it's worked well over the years. Deburr the tubing end, apply a little grease, then flare. - Mike Model I w/532 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337207#337207 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator From: Patrick Reilly Mike, I have 2 cheap 45 degree flaring tools one that will do double flares. I knew there had to be a similar inexpensive 37 degree tool. Thanks for the source. I ordered the Great Neck model just to have on hand at that price. Maybe I should have ordered the double flare model. Any of you guys use a double flare? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuilt Rockford, IL On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:40 AM, mikeperkins wrote: > michael.perkins@rauland.com> > > Here are some inexpensive 37.5 degree flaring tools: > $55 - > http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Standard-Flaring-Tool-37-Degree-AN,2931.html > $40 - > http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23332-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000X4K9KO/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_a > $16 - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Degree-Flaring-Tool/dp/B004FEJF2Q > > I have one similar to the $16 version and it's worked well over the years. > Deburr the tubing end, apply a little grease, then flare. > > - Mike > Model I w/532 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337207#337207 > > -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters From: Patrick Reilly James, Yes, that Dow 730 is the best sealer there is that I know of. Sorry about using UPS at $11 for shipping. I won't use them for such a small package again, although I do swear by their service. I looked at carbon fiber cloth on ebay after you mentioned it. There were 200 listings. If you can't find it there, good luck. What resin do you use on the carbon fiber? Pat Reilly On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:33 PM, WurlyBird wrote: > james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil> > > Honestly Pat, for the best quality on small quantity I have not found > anything better then Ebay. I have also found very little in the way of > fabric designs or styles elsewhere that are not on Ebay. And they were just > weird. I bought that Red and black hybrid cloth a long time ago and just > got around to really doing layups. Now I can't find that style fabric > anywhere and I have spent a couple hours looking. Usually if you can't find > something in that amount of time on the internet you probably wont find it. > Or if you are like me you will get completely involved in some new > information you found and end up starting a new project. [Laughing] > > By the way the Dow worked great Pat. I did a hang test for 24 hours with > fuel coming from a height of over 4 feet. I am confident enough to say that > that is leak proof. Thanks again. > > -------- > James > Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA > 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, > now she lies in wait > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337156#337156 > > -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:29 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) From: sourdostan@aol.com Any chance you guys could change the subject line when you go on to anothe r subject? I quit reading about gascolators many posts ago, but decided to check back in to see where the rag has gone. The subject has evolved a bi t. Thanks, Stan Specht Lakewood, Colorado Kitfox IV Speedster Rotax 912 ul 1750 hrs. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Reilly Sent: Sun, Apr 17, 2011 9:30 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator Mike, I have 2 cheap 45 degree flaring tools one that will do double flare s. I knew there had to be a similar inexpensive 37 degree tool. Thanks for the source. I ordered the Great Neck model just to have on hand at that price. Maybe I should have ordered the double flare model. Any of you guy s use a double flare? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuilt Rockford, IL On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:40 AM, mikeperkins wrote: com> Here are some inexpensive 37.5 degree flaring tools: $55 - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Standard-Flaring-Tool-37-Degree-AN,293 1.html $40 - http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23332-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000X4K9KO/ref= pd_bxgy_hi_img_a $16 - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Degree-Flaring-Tool/dp/B004FEJF2Q I have one similar to the $16 version and it's worked well over the years. Deburr the tubing end, apply a little grease, then flare. - Mike Model I w/532 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337207#337====== ================= y Browse, Chat, FAQ, ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http :==== http://forums.mle, List Admin. ==== -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:32 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator I'm thinking that the sleeve is there for strain relief and vibration protection, and nothing to do with the flare itself, or the sealing qualities. In plumbing fittings, at least on gas lines, there are what are called (locally at least) gas line nuts, which are nuts with a longer, tapering portion at the back, which seems to be there for strain relief. It serves the same function, in my mind, as the sleeves in the AN, MS, and JIC 37 systems. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) On Apr 17, 2011, at 10:20 AM, Noel Loveys wrote: > > The reason I suspect outside of having more sealing surface, is > what you > mentioned about not stretching the tubing as far and therefore not as > susceptible to cracking. > > I also noticed the 45 degree pipe flare doesn't use or at least I > haven't > seen one use a sleeve inside the B-Nut. > > Noel > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:26:06 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator Mike- When did this 37.5 degree thing come on board? I visited all three sites that you mentioned, and I couldn't find any reference to the . 5. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass (well, maybe I am), but I don't find a reference to it. I'm thinking that if AC 43. 13 doesn't mention 37.5, and I can't find reference to 37.5 in any mention of flaring tools, then maybe we ought not refer to that, huh? I mean, we got guys banging their heads against the wall trying to decide whether to use 45 or 37, and now we got them out looking for a 37.5 tool? : ) Regarding the cheap flaring tools, I once had a 45 flaring tool that didn't match up well where the two sides of the female clamping device came together. This would cause a pinch on the tubing, and leave a slight ridge behind the flare. It never hurt the sealing surface, or the sealing of the joint, but it always stuck in my craw that the imperfection was there. It looked like where the two sides came together, they formed an oval hole, not completely round, and tightening the clamp would pinch the tubing and deform it...a sure sign of a cheap tool. Just for the record, is everybody adhering to what AC 43. 13 says regarding tube connections: "A double flare is used on soft aluminum tubing 3/8-inch outside diameter and under, and a single flare on all other tubing." Hmmmmm? Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) On Apr 17, 2011, at 10:40 AM, mikeperkins wrote: > > > Here are some inexpensive 37.5 degree flaring tools: > $55 - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Standard-Flaring-Tool-37-Degree- > AN,2931.html > $40 - http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23332-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000X4K9KO/ > ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_a > $16 - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Degree-Flaring-Tool/dp/ > B004FEJF2Q > > I have one similar to the $16 version and it's worked well over the > years. Deburr the tubing end, apply a little grease, then flare. > > - Mike > Model I w/532 > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:16 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator From: "Tom Jones" [Wink] [Wink] [Wink] > I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass (well, maybe I am), but I > don't find a reference to it. I'm thinking that if AC 43. 13 doesn't > mention 37.5, and I can't find reference to 37.5 in any mention of > flaring tools, then maybe we ought not refer to that, huh? I mean, we > got guys banging their heads against the wall trying to decide > whether to use 45 or 37, and now we got them out looking for a 37.5 > tool? : ) I'm guilty of posting it as 37.5. I guess I hadn't noticed it is 37 and not 37.5. The guy in the film said 37 and a half. Must be his fault. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337241#337241 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:41 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Battery From: Patrick Reilly Kitfoxers, I have an Odessy PC625 battery on my 582. Flew for about 1/2 hour with radio and strobes only on. Battery was almost dead and had to charge for 20 min. to start engine. I always have a float charger hooked up to the battery in the hanger and it never fails to start. I purchased the battery about 3 years ago. It sat for a year and a half. I have put about 30 hours on the plane in the last year and a half. What is the best way to determine if I need a new battery or my charging system is weak. Also, is a float charger always hooked up a good idea? It seems to help on the other batteries I use them on. -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:13 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters On 4/16/2011 2:31 PM, WurlyBird wrote: > The first picture is the fabric I want to use if I can find more of it. I got this piece off Ebay about 7 years ago and I can not find it anywhere. And that is what I have been doing wit! > h composites lately. > I like it a lot. I particularly like your use of tooling cloth, it's much more interesting than the usual plain weave or satin. I'd probably tone down the gloss, though. (Man, that Kevlar is wild. I've never seen anything like it.) Guy Buchanan Ramona, CA Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:23 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) On 4/17/2011 9:36 AM, sourdostan@aol.com wrote: > Any chance you guys could change the subject line when you go on to > another subject? I quit reading about gascolators many posts ago, but > decided to check back in to see where the rag has gone. The subject > has evolved a bit. WHERE THE HECK ARE THE MODERATORS! Asleep again, I guess. Good thing we've got the participants trained. (Thanks, Stan.) Guy Buchanan - List moderator Ramona, CA Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:32 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Battery Pat- I have a PC 680 Odyssey battery in my plane and it has been in there since about June 2006. I have never used a float charger, but left the master on one day, and had to recharge. I would visit the site for Odyssey batteries, and question them about the float thing....the Odyssey's are a different breed than your other batteries, or so I'm led to believe. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) On Apr 17, 2011, at 6:26 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote: > Kitfoxers, I have an Odessy PC625 battery on my 582. Flew for about > 1/2 hour with radio and strobes only on. Battery was almost dead > and had to charge for 20 min. to start engine. I always have a > float charger hooked up to the battery in the hanger and it never > fails to start. I purchased the battery about 3 years ago. It sat > for a year and a half. I have put about 30 hours on the plane in > the last year and a half. What is the best way to determine if I > need a new battery or my charging system is weak. Also, is a float > charger always hooked up a good idea? It seems to help on the other > batteries I use them on. > > -- > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford,IL > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:16 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) Who reads the posts based on the title, anyway? I just read everything (even all of my crap) that comes down the pike, no matter what the title says. Yes, it's bad form to go off on a tangent, but this thread has actually stayed closer to subject (flare fittings on gascolators) than a lot of the centrifugal dalliances I've seen. (pay no attention to me...I just wanted to use "centrifugal dalliances" in a sentence....sounds cool, eh?) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) do not archive On Apr 17, 2011, at 6:44 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > On 4/17/2011 9:36 AM, sourdostan@aol.com wrote: >> Any chance you guys could change the subject line when you go on >> to another subject? I quit reading about gascolators many posts >> ago, but decided to check back in to see where the rag has gone. >> The subject has evolved a bit. > > WHERE THE HECK ARE THE MODERATORS! Asleep again, I guess. Good > thing we've got the participants trained. (Thanks, Stan.) > > Guy Buchanan - List moderator > Ramona, CA > Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Battery From: Patrick Reilly Lynn, Thanks for the info. I'll give them a call. Pat On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 6:01 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > > Pat- > > I have a PC 680 Odyssey battery in my plane and it has been in there since > about June 2006. I have never used a float charger, but left the master on > one day, and had to recharge. > I would visit the site for Odyssey batteries, and question them about the > float thing....the Odyssey's are a different breed than your other > batteries, or so I'm led to believe. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062 > Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) > Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) > > > On Apr 17, 2011, at 6:26 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote: > > Kitfoxers, I have an Odessy PC625 battery on my 582. Flew for about 1/2 >> hour with radio and strobes only on. Battery was almost dead and had to >> charge for 20 min. to start engine. I always have a float charger hooked up >> to the battery in the hanger and it never fails to start. I purchased the >> battery about 3 years ago. It sat for a year and a half. I have put about 30 >> hours on the plane in the last year and a half. What is the best way to >> determine if I need a new battery or my charging system is weak. Also, is a >> float charger always hooked up a good idea? It seems to help on the other >> batteries I use them on. >> >> -- >> Pat Reilly >> Mod 3 582 Rebuild >> Rockford,IL >> > > -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:23 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Battery Pat, I talked to a friend who replaced an Odyssey battery on his Model IV and gave the old one to his son. The son, cleaned up the contacts and still has it starting his garden tractor after another three years. It was my friends opinion, that the contacts can develop corrosion that is not detectable by simply looking at them. First, and this would be the advice from Larry, take some emery cloth or some other very fine abrasive and clean the contacts both on the battery and the cables, then see what happens. Lowell From: Patrick Reilly Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Battery Kitfoxers, I have an Odessy PC625 battery on my 582. Flew for about 1/2 hour with radio and strobes only on. Battery was almost dead and had to charge for 20 min. to start engine. I always have a float charger hooked up to the battery in the hanger and it never fails to start. I purchased the battery about 3 years ago. It sat for a year and a half. I have put about 30 hours on the plane in the last year and a half. What is the best way to determine if I need a new battery or my charging system is weak. Also, is a float charger always hooked up a good idea? It seems to help on the other batteries I use them on. -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:01 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) On 4/17/2011 4:11 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > (pay no attention to me...I just wanted to use "centrifugal > dalliances" in a sentence....sounds cool, eh?) And here I thought it was centripetal dalliances. Please do not archive Guy Buchanan Ramona, CA Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) From: Patrick Reilly Lynn, I was thinking the flared fittings weren't that far from original gascolator subject myself. But, damn it Lynn, the "centrifical dalliances" definitely require a new thread. By the way are those certified "centrifical dalliances" or strictly for expiremental use only? I'm afraid I too read all these post. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuilt Rockford, IL On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > > Who reads the posts based on the title, anyway? I just read everything > (even all of my crap) that comes down the pike, no matter what the title > says. Yes, it's bad form to go off on a tangent, but this thread has > actually stayed closer to subject (flare fittings on gascolators) than a lot > of the centrifugal dalliances I've seen. (pay no attention to me...I just > wanted to use "centrifugal dalliances" in a sentence....sounds cool, eh?) > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062 > Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) > Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) > do not archive > > > On Apr 17, 2011, at 6:44 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > > On 4/17/2011 9:36 AM, sourdostan@aol.com wrote: >> >>> Any chance you guys could change the subject line when you go on to >>> another subject? I quit reading about gascolators many posts ago, but >>> decided to check back in to see where the rag has gone. The subject has >>> evolved a bit. >>> >> >> WHERE THE HECK ARE THE MODERATORS! Asleep again, I guess. Good thing we've >> got the participants trained. (Thanks, Stan.) >> >> Guy Buchanan - List moderator >> Ramona, CA >> Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded >> > > -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:45 PM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator Wellll, in the case of Experimental/Homebuilt aircraft, use anything you want for a flare angle. FAR 43.1(b)(1) states:" (b) This part does not apply to (1) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft; or" AC 43.13 is an "advisory circular", which is non-regulatory, therefore, you may do anything you wish, so long as it is not considered "unsafe" by the FAA. John Hart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:24 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator Mike- When did this 37.5 degree thing come on board? I visited all three sites that you mentioned, and I couldn't find any reference to the . 5. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass (well, maybe I am), but I don't find a reference to it. I'm thinking that if AC 43. 13 doesn't mention 37.5, and I can't find reference to 37.5 in any mention of flaring tools, then maybe we ought not refer to that, huh? I mean, we got guys banging their heads against the wall trying to decide whether to use 45 or 37, and now we got them out looking for a 37.5 tool? : ) Regarding the cheap flaring tools, I once had a 45 flaring tool that didn't match up well where the two sides of the female clamping device came together. This would cause a pinch on the tubing, and leave a slight ridge behind the flare. It never hurt the sealing surface, or the sealing of the joint, but it always stuck in my craw that the imperfection was there. It looked like where the two sides came together, they formed an oval hole, not completely round, and tightening the clamp would pinch the tubing and deform it...a sure sign of a cheap tool. Just for the record, is everybody adhering to what AC 43. 13 says regarding tube connections: "A double flare is used on soft aluminum tubing 3/8-inch outside diameter and under, and a single flare on all other tubing." Hmmmmm? Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) On Apr 17, 2011, at 10:40 AM, mikeperkins wrote: > > > Here are some inexpensive 37.5 degree flaring tools: > $55 - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Standard-Flaring-Tool-37-Degree- > AN,2931.html > $40 - http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23332-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000X4K9KO/ > ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_a > $16 - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Degree-Flaring-Tool/dp/ > B004FEJF2Q > > I have one similar to the $16 version and it's worked well over the > years. Deburr the tubing end, apply a little grease, then flare. > > - Mike > Model I w/532 > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Battery From: Patrick Reilly Lowell, Good advice. You do mean the "terminals" on the battery and cables, right? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuilt Rockford, IL On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > Pat, > > I talked to a friend who replaced an Odyssey battery on his Model IV and > gave the old one to his son. The son, cleaned up the contacts and still has > it starting his garden tractor after another three years. It was my friends > opinion, that the contacts can develop corrosion that is not detectable by > simply looking at them. First, and this would be the advice from Larry, > take some emery cloth or some other very fine abrasive and clean the > contacts both on the battery and the cables, then see what happens. > > Lowell > > *From:* Patrick Reilly > *Sent:* Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 PM > *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Kitfox-List: Battery > > Kitfoxers, I have an Odessy PC625 battery on my 582. Flew for about 1/2 > hour with radio and strobes only on. Battery was almost dead and had to > charge for 20 min. to start engine. I always have a float charger hooked up > to the battery in the hanger and it never fails to start. I purchased the > battery about 3 years ago. It sat for a year and a half. I have put about 30 > hours on the plane in the last year and a half. What is the best way to > determine if I need a new battery or my charging system is weak. Also, is a > float charger always hooked up a good idea? It seems to help on the other > batteries I use them on. > > -- > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford,IL > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:03 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Battery Pat, You said the radio and strobes were on. Did that happen to include the nav lights? Incandescent bulbs really use a lot power. That being said, I agree that the terminals and cables ought to be checked for corrosion. On my 912 the charging system couldn't keep the battery up to to full power with all the electronics and nav lights on. The drain was slow, but it was noticeable. Changing to LED nav's solved the problem. The strobes didn't seem to be an issue. Just my two cents. N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL On Apr 17, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote: > Lowell, Good advice. You do mean the "terminals" on the battery and cables, right? > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuilt > Rockford, IL > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > Pat, > > I talked to a friend who replaced an Odyssey battery on his Model IV and gave the old one to his son. The son, cleaned up the contacts and still has it starting his garden tractor after another three years. It was my friends opinion, that the contacts can develop corrosion that is not detectable by simply looking at them. First, and this would be the advice from Larry, take some emery cloth or some other very fine abrasive and clean the contacts both on the battery and the cables, then see what happens. > > Lowell > > From: Patrick Reilly > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Battery > > Kitfoxers, I have an Odessy PC625 battery on my 582. Flew for about 1/2 hour with radio and strobes only on. Battery was almost dead and had to charge for 20 min. to start engine. I always have a float charger hooked up to the battery in the hanger and it never fails to start. I purchased the battery about 3 years ago. It sat for a year and a half. I have put about 30 hours on the plane in the last year and a half. What is the best way to determine if I need a new battery or my charging system is weak. Also, is a float charger always hooked up a good idea? It seems to help on the other batteries I use them on. > > -- > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford,IL > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > -- > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford,IL > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:00 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) Dammit, Guy, you just sent me to the dictionary....nope, centripetal is moving towards the center, which is what Stan was suggesting us "flare-er's do...in subtle terms. : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) do not archive On Apr 17, 2011, at 7:32 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > > On 4/17/2011 4:11 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: >> (pay no attention to me...I just wanted to use "centrifugal >> dalliances" in a sentence....sounds cool, eh?) > > And here I thought it was centripetal dalliances. > > Please do not archive > > Guy Buchanan > Ramona, CA > Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:27 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) Pat- I gotta call you on "centrifical"...sorry, but no such word. Like most of us, we hear a word and spell it in our minds, and sometimes hit it on the head, but centrif-u-gal" is the right word, but we rarely hear it pronounced that way...it usually comes out sounding like centrifical, like you wrote. (don't mine me, I'm a frustrated English patient....er, English major, that is) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) do not archive On Apr 17, 2011, at 7:32 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote: > Lynn, I was thinking the flared fittings weren't that far from > original gascolator subject myself. But, damn it Lynn, the > "centrifical dalliances" definitely require a new thread. By the > way are those certified "centrifical dalliances" or strictly for > expiremental use only? I'm afraid I too read all these post. > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuilt > Rockford, IL > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:20 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator Good point, John...."advisory circular"....I sorta thought this was the Bible of repair, and was treating the info therein as Gospel. I wonder how many A&P/IA's follow it without question?...just wondering... Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) do not archive On Apr 17, 2011, at 7:33 PM, John W. Hart wrote: > > > Wellll, in the case of Experimental/Homebuilt aircraft, use > anything you > want for a flare angle. FAR 43.1(b)(1) states:" (b) This part does > not > apply to > > (1) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental > certificate, > unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness > certificate for that aircraft; or" > > AC 43.13 is an "advisory circular", which is non-regulatory, > therefore, you > may do anything you wish, so long as it is not considered "unsafe" > by the > FAA. > > John Hart > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn > Matteson > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:24 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator > > > Mike- > When did this 37.5 degree thing come on board? I visited all three > sites that you mentioned, and I couldn't find any reference to the . > 5. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass (well, maybe I am), but I > don't find a reference to it. I'm thinking that if AC 43. 13 doesn't > mention 37.5, and I can't find reference to 37.5 in any mention of > flaring tools, then maybe we ought not refer to that, huh? I mean, we > got guys banging their heads against the wall trying to decide > whether to use 45 or 37, and now we got them out looking for a 37.5 > tool? : ) > > Regarding the cheap flaring tools, I once had a 45 flaring tool that > didn't match up well where the two sides of the female clamping > device came together. This would cause a pinch on the tubing, and > leave a slight ridge behind the flare. It never hurt the sealing > surface, or the sealing of the joint, but it always stuck in my craw > that the imperfection was there. It looked like where the two sides > came together, they formed an oval hole, not completely round, and > tightening the clamp would pinch the tubing and deform it...a sure > sign of a cheap tool. > > Just for the record, is everybody adhering to what AC 43. 13 says > regarding tube connections: "A double flare is used on soft aluminum > tubing 3/8-inch outside diameter and under, and a single flare on all > other tubing." Hmmmmm? > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062 > Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) > Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) > > > On Apr 17, 2011, at 10:40 AM, mikeperkins wrote: > >> >> >> Here are some inexpensive 37.5 degree flaring tools: >> $55 - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Standard-Flaring-Tool-37-Degree- >> AN,2931.html >> $40 - http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23332-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000X4K9KO/ >> ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_a >> $16 - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Degree-Flaring-Tool/dp/ >> B004FEJF2Q >> >> I have one similar to the $16 version and it's worked well over the >> years. Deburr the tubing end, apply a little grease, then flare. >> >> - Mike >> Model I w/532 >> > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:33 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator Ha! Although only advisory in nature, doing something different than what is there is absolutely allowed. But if there is a problem, as Ricky Ricardo used to say, it will require you do some s'plaining Lucy! (Usually, that's to your insurance company.) Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL On Apr 17, 2011, at 8:39 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > > Good point, John...."advisory circular"....I sorta thought this was the Bible of repair, and was treating the info therein as Gospel. I wonder how many A&P/IA's follow it without question?...just wondering... > > > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062 > Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) > Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) > do not archive > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2011, at 7:33 PM, John W. Hart wrote: > >> >> Wellll, in the case of Experimental/Homebuilt aircraft, use anything you >> want for a flare angle. FAR 43.1(b)(1) states:" (b) This part does not >> apply to=97 >> >> (1) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, >> unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness >> certificate for that aircraft; or" >> >> AC 43.13 is an "advisory circular", which is non-regulatory, therefore, you >> may do anything you wish, so long as it is not considered "unsafe" by the >> FAA. >> >> John Hart >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson >> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:24 PM >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator >> >> >> Mike- >> When did this 37.5 degree thing come on board? I visited all three >> sites that you mentioned, and I couldn't find any reference to the . >> 5. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass (well, maybe I am), but I >> don't find a reference to it. I'm thinking that if AC 43. 13 doesn't >> mention 37.5=B0, and I can't find reference to 37.5=B0 in any mention of >> flaring tools, then maybe we ought not refer to that, huh? I mean, we >> got guys banging their heads against the wall trying to decide >> whether to use 45 or 37, and now we got them out looking for a 37.5 >> tool? : ) >> >> Regarding the cheap flaring tools, I once had a 45=B0 flaring tool that >> didn't match up well where the two sides of the female clamping >> device came together. This would cause a pinch on the tubing, and >> leave a slight ridge behind the flare. It never hurt the sealing >> surface, or the sealing of the joint, but it always stuck in my craw >> that the imperfection was there. It looked like where the two sides >> came together, they formed an oval hole, not completely round, and >> tightening the clamp would pinch the tubing and deform it...a sure >> sign of a cheap tool. >> >> Just for the record, is everybody adhering to what AC 43. 13 says >> regarding tube connections: "A double flare is used on soft aluminum >> tubing 3/8-inch outside diameter and under, and a single flare on all >> other tubing." Hmmmmm? >> >> Lynn Matteson >> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger >> Jabiru 2200, #2062 >> Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) >> Electroair direct-fire ignition system >> Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) >> Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) >> >> >> On Apr 17, 2011, at 10:40 AM, mikeperkins wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Here are some inexpensive 37.5 degree flaring tools: >>> $55 - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Standard-Flaring-Tool-37-Degree- >>> AN,2931.html >>> $40 - http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23332-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000X4K9KO/ >>> ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_a >>> $16 - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Degree-Flaring-Tool/dp/ >>> B004FEJF2Q >>> >>> I have one similar to the $16 version and it's worked well over the >>> years. Deburr the tubing end, apply a little grease, then flare. >>> >>> - Mike >>> Model I w/532 >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:45 PM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator Lots of folks do, and that's not all bad, BUT, in the case of "Experimental/Homebuilt", there's lots of leeway to do what you want. When I worked for the FAA some years ago, a fellow came in to the FSDO asking about "an STC to put tundra tires on an experimental". Several of the other guys in Flight Standards started making all kinds of noise about STC's until it was pointed out that FAR 43, as well as a few other regs and AC's didn't apply to the "Experimental/Homebuilt" aircraft. You should have seen the sheepish looks on their faces. John Hart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 7:39 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator Good point, John...."advisory circular"....I sorta thought this was the Bible of repair, and was treating the info therein as Gospel. I wonder how many A&P/IA's follow it without question?...just wondering... Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) do not archive On Apr 17, 2011, at 7:33 PM, John W. Hart wrote: > > > Wellll, in the case of Experimental/Homebuilt aircraft, use > anything you > want for a flare angle. FAR 43.1(b)(1) states:" (b) This part does > not > apply to > > (1) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental > certificate, > unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness > certificate for that aircraft; or" > > AC 43.13 is an "advisory circular", which is non-regulatory, > therefore, you > may do anything you wish, so long as it is not considered "unsafe" > by the > FAA. > > John Hart > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn > Matteson > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:24 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: 37 degree flares...was Gascolator > > > Mike- > When did this 37.5 degree thing come on board? I visited all three > sites that you mentioned, and I couldn't find any reference to the . > 5. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass (well, maybe I am), but I > don't find a reference to it. I'm thinking that if AC 43. 13 doesn't > mention 37.5, and I can't find reference to 37.5 in any mention of > flaring tools, then maybe we ought not refer to that, huh? I mean, we > got guys banging their heads against the wall trying to decide > whether to use 45 or 37, and now we got them out looking for a 37.5 > tool? : ) > > Regarding the cheap flaring tools, I once had a 45 flaring tool that > didn't match up well where the two sides of the female clamping > device came together. This would cause a pinch on the tubing, and > leave a slight ridge behind the flare. It never hurt the sealing > surface, or the sealing of the joint, but it always stuck in my craw > that the imperfection was there. It looked like where the two sides > came together, they formed an oval hole, not completely round, and > tightening the clamp would pinch the tubing and deform it...a sure > sign of a cheap tool. > > Just for the record, is everybody adhering to what AC 43. 13 says > regarding tube connections: "A double flare is used on soft aluminum > tubing 3/8-inch outside diameter and under, and a single flare on all > other tubing." Hmmmmm? > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062 > Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) > Electroair direct-fire ignition system > Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) > Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) > > > On Apr 17, 2011, at 10:40 AM, mikeperkins wrote: > >> >> >> Here are some inexpensive 37.5 degree flaring tools: >> $55 - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Standard-Flaring-Tool-37-Degree- >> AN,2931.html >> $40 - http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23332-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000X4K9KO/ >> ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_a >> $16 - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Degree-Flaring-Tool/dp/ >> B004FEJF2Q >> >> I have one similar to the $16 version and it's worked well over the >> years. Deburr the tubing end, apply a little grease, then flare. >> >> - Mike >> Model I w/532 >> > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Battery From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." On Sun, April 17, 2011 3:26 pm, Patrick Reilly wrote: > Kitfoxers, I have an Odessy PC625 battery on my 582. Flew for about 1/2 hour > with radio and strobes only on. Battery was almost dead and had to charge > for 20 min. to start engine. I always have a float charger hooked up to the > battery in the hanger and it never fails to start. I purchased the battery > about 3 years ago. It sat for a year and a half. I have put about 30 hours > on the plane in the last year and a half. What is the best way to determine > if I need a new battery or my charging system is weak. Charge it until it's reached maximum voltage then run the de-sulfate cycle for up to a couple of days then top off the charge and try it. These new batteries damage quickly when left dead for long periods. Also, discharging them down to less than 1/3 of maximum also shortens their life. I have a similar situation one of my Corvette's batteries, left dead for a year. The automatic charger I connected it to, said "battery fault 02" and that means failed battery. I fooled the charger by turning the headlights on and connecting an old fashioned charger in parallel. It then would charge about 20 minutes and fault code would show. Then I ran the de-sulfate cycle until a fault code came up in about an hour. Topped off the charge again. Didn't take much but was enough to start the car. I went on a two hour drive, came back and the desulfate cycle would then run to completion. That battery has been fine for almost a month now. One of the key conditions of being able to restore one of these abused batteries is that it hasn't been run low on fluid. I tried topping off another one which was in a big truck in parallel with 4 other huge batteries and it almost immediately developed a short circuit cell and started the cables smoking. The battery was boiled half dry. Bob Nuckolsof Aero Electric recommends using two small batteries and changing one out after a year then alternating every year. So most likely your battery capacity is reduced enough to warrant a new one. Keep it charged with a smart charger that switches off when the desired voltage is reached then starts again when needed. Don't use a 'trickle charger'. > Also, is a float > charger always hooked up a good idea? It seems to help on the other > batteries I use them on. > > -- > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford,IL > -- Paul A. Franz, P.E. PAF Consulting Engineers Office 425.440.9505 Cell 425.241.1618 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." On Sun, April 17, 2011 5:33 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote: > > Pat- > I gotta call you on "centrifical"...sorry, but no such word. Like > most of us, we hear a word and spell it in our minds, and sometimes > hit it on the head, but centrif-u-gal" is the right word, but we > rarely hear it pronounced that way...it usually comes out sounding > like centrifical, like you wrote. (don't mine me, I'm a frustrated > English patient....er, English major, that is) Hey Engrish (my wife's accent) Dude, it's 'mind' not "mine." -- Paul A. Franz, P.E. PAF Consulting Engineers Office 425.440.9505 Cell 425.241.1618 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:56 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) From: "WurlyBird" I don't understand. What does all this have to do with gascolators? -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, now she lies in wait Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337296#337296 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:08 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) Oops! That was a spelling error, not a grammatical error, so I should be given only a half-point off. And you missed inserting a comma after 'mind', as in: "it's 'mind', not "mine." Touche. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062 Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip) Electroair direct-fire ignition system Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm) Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006) do not archive On Apr 17, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote: > > > > On Sun, April 17, 2011 5:33 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote: >> >> Pat- >> I gotta call you on "centrifical"...sorry, but no such word. Like >> most of us, we hear a word and spell it in our minds, and sometimes >> hit it on the head, but centrif-u-gal" is the right word, but we >> rarely hear it pronounced that way...it usually comes out sounding >> like centrifical, like you wrote. (don't mine me, I'm a frustrated >> English patient....er, English major, that is) > > Hey Engrish (my wife's accent) Dude, it's 'mind' not "mine." > > -- > Paul A. Franz, P.E. > PAF Consulting Engineers > Office 425.440.9505 > Cell 425.241.1618 > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:50 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters From: "WurlyBird" The resin is HTR-212 laminating resin from Aircraft spruce. I got it because it is much clearer then other systems. After doing more research, and with my new found experience, I am going to go with something more structural and less viscous if I can find it. The 212 is not very viscous but thinner would be better for reducing voids I think. As for the gloss. The flash always makes it look worse then it is. I plan to do a lay up with thin peel ply as the texture to see how this looks. All in all I don' think the high gloss is too bad. I don't think it could interfere with the instruments even in direct sunlight. But we will see and the testing will continue. Posts will continue on the carbon stuff until you all stop reading it. :D -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, now she lies in wait Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337299#337299 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters From: Patrick Reilly Wurly, What about West Systems resins? Pat Reilly On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:33 PM, WurlyBird wrote: > james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil> > > The resin is HTR-212 laminating resin from Aircraft spruce. I got it > because it is much clearer then other systems. After doing more research, > and with my new found experience, I am going to go with something more > structural and less viscous if I can find it. The 212 is not very viscous > but thinner would be better for reducing voids I think. > > As for the gloss. The flash always makes it look worse then it is. I plan > to do a lay up with thin peel ply as the texture to see how this looks. All > in all I don' think the high gloss is too bad. I don't think it could > interfere with the instruments even in direct sunlight. But we will see and > the testing will continue. Posts will continue on the carbon stuff until > you all stop reading it. :D > > -------- > James > Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA > 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, > now she lies in wait > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337299#337299 > > -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Gascolator (subject change) From: Patrick Reilly Wurly, Its the gas lines leading to the gascolator that the original question related to. Pat Reilly On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:04 PM, WurlyBird wrote: > james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil> > > I don't understand. What does all this have to do with gascolators? > > -------- > James > Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA > 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, > now she lies in wait > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337296#337296 > > -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Battery From: Patrick Reilly Richard, Only the strobes were on with the radio. Shouldn't be enough to drain the battery if terminals aren't corroded. I don't think the terminals are corroded. But, I will clean them and put the battery on a charger tomorrow. And,call Odyssey tomorrow to ask about the float charger I have been using. I have the AeroFlash nav strobe combo on the wing tips. I'd like to put LED's in the nav sockets. Someone in the Kitplane mag showed how to make a multi bulb LED assembly fit up. It looked like alot of work. If I had all the parts I'd give it a try. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuilt Rockford, IL On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Weiss Richard wrote: > Pat, > > You said the radio and strobes were on. Did that happen to include the nav > lights? Incandescent bulbs really use a lot power. That being said, I > agree that the terminals and cables ought to be checked for corrosion. On > my 912 the charging system couldn't keep the battery up to to full power > with all the electronics and nav lights on. The drain was slow, but it was > noticeable. Changing to LED nav's solved the problem. The strobes didn't > seem to be an issue. > > Just my two cents. > > N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS > SkyStar S/N 1 > Port Orange, FL > > > On Apr 17, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote: > > Lowell, Good advice. You do mean the "terminals" on the battery and > cables, right? > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuilt > Rockford, IL > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > >> Pat, >> >> I talked to a friend who replaced an Odyssey battery on his Model IV and >> gave the old one to his son. The son, cleaned up the contacts and still has >> it starting his garden tractor after another three years. It was my friends >> opinion, that the contacts can develop corrosion that is not detectable by >> simply looking at them. First, and this would be the advice from Larry, >> take some emery cloth or some other very fine abrasive and clean the >> contacts both on the battery and the cables, then see what happens. >> >> Lowell >> >> *From:* Patrick Reilly >> *Sent:* Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 PM >> *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com >> *Subject:* Kitfox-List: Battery >> >> Kitfoxers, I have an Odessy PC625 battery on my 582. Flew for about 1/2 >> hour with radio and strobes only on. Battery was almost dead and had to >> charge for 20 min. to start engine. I always have a float charger hooked up >> to the battery in the hanger and it never fails to start. I purchased the >> battery about 3 years ago. It sat for a year and a half. I have put about 30 >> hours on the plane in the last year and a half. What is the best way to >> determine if I need a new battery or my charging system is weak. Also, is a >> float charger always hooked up a good idea? It seems to help on the other >> batteries I use them on. >> >> -- >> Pat Reilly >> Mod 3 582 Rebuild >> Rockford,IL >> >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* >> >> * >> >> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listttp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > > > -- > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford,IL > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > * > > * > > -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Battery From: Patrick Reilly Paul, I am using the Odyssey sealed battery so it can't be low on fluid. I'm not familiar with the desulfate cycle. I think that applied to the old standard open acid batteries. My charger doesn't have that and I don't know if that would work on the Odyssey sealled battery. Hope to learn more from Odyssey tomorrow. As Lynn said, the Odyssey's are a different animal. Pat Reilly On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote: > paul@eucleides.com> > > > On Sun, April 17, 2011 3:26 pm, Patrick Reilly wrote: > > Kitfoxers, I have an Odessy PC625 battery on my 582. Flew for about 1/2 > hour > > with radio and strobes only on. Battery was almost dead and had to charge > > for 20 min. to start engine. I always have a float charger hooked up to > the > > battery in the hanger and it never fails to start. I purchased the > battery > > about 3 years ago. It sat for a year and a half. I have put about 30 > hours > > on the plane in the last year and a half. What is the best way to > determine > > if I need a new battery or my charging system is weak. > > Charge it until it's reached maximum voltage then run the de-sulfate cycle > for up to a > couple of days then top off the charge and try it. These new batteries > damage quickly > when left dead for long periods. Also, discharging them down to less than > 1/3 of > maximum also shortens their life. I have a similar situation one of my > Corvette's > batteries, left dead for a year. The automatic charger I connected it to, > said > "battery fault 02" and that means failed battery. I fooled the charger by > turning the > headlights on and connecting an old fashioned charger in parallel. It then > would > charge about 20 minutes and fault code would show. Then I ran the > de-sulfate cycle > until a fault code came up in about an hour. Topped off the charge again. > Didn't take > much but was enough to start the car. I went on a two hour drive, came back > and the > desulfate cycle would then run to completion. That battery has been fine > for almost a > month now. One of the key conditions of being able to restore one of these > abused > batteries is that it hasn't been run low on fluid. I tried topping off > another one > which was in a big truck in parallel with 4 other huge batteries and it > almost > immediately developed a short circuit cell and started the cables smoking. > The battery > was boiled half dry. > > Bob Nuckolsof Aero Electric recommends using two small batteries and > changing one out > after a year then alternating every year. So most likely your battery > capacity is > reduced enough to warrant a new one. Keep it charged with a smart charger > that > switches off when the desired voltage is reached then starts again when > needed. Don't > use a 'trickle charger'. > > > > Also, is a float > > charger always hooked up a good idea? It seems to help on the other > > batteries I use them on. > > > > -- > > Pat Reilly > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > > Rockford,IL > > > > > -- > Paul A. Franz, P.E. > PAF Consulting Engineers > Office 425.440.9505 > Cell 425.241.1618 > > -- Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford,IL ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Battery From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." On Sun, April 17, 2011 8:17 pm, Patrick Reilly wrote: > Paul, I am using the Odyssey sealed battery so it can't be low on fluid. I'm > not familiar with the desulfate cycle. Newer fancier chargers have that feature. Really can extend battery life. > I think that applied to the old > standard open acid batteries. My charger doesn't have that and I don't know > if that would work on the Odyssey sealled battery. They can get low too. The truck battery I talked about below, had four cells low. I pried off a cap (not supposed to be removable) and filled it. It was about half gone. It was a sealed battery too. It worked for just a while before it went TU. > Hope to learn more from > Odyssey tomorrow. As Lynn said, the Odyssey's are a different animal. I don't think so. There are only 3 or 4 total count of manufacturers now in the US. Just a lot of brand names for the same thing. > > Pat Reilly > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote: > >> paul@eucleides.com> >> >> >> On Sun, April 17, 2011 3:26 pm, Patrick Reilly wrote: >> > Kitfoxers, I have an Odessy PC625 battery on my 582. Flew for about 1/2 >> hour >> > with radio and strobes only on. Battery was almost dead and had to charge >> > for 20 min. to start engine. I always have a float charger hooked up to >> the >> > battery in the hanger and it never fails to start. I purchased the >> battery >> > about 3 years ago. It sat for a year and a half. I have put about 30 >> hours >> > on the plane in the last year and a half. What is the best way to >> determine >> > if I need a new battery or my charging system is weak. >> >> Charge it until it's reached maximum voltage then run the de-sulfate cycle >> for up to a >> couple of days then top off the charge and try it. These new batteries >> damage quickly >> when left dead for long periods. Also, discharging them down to less than >> 1/3 of >> maximum also shortens their life. I have a similar situation one of my >> Corvette's >> batteries, left dead for a year. The automatic charger I connected it to, >> said >> "battery fault 02" and that means failed battery. I fooled the charger by >> turning the >> headlights on and connecting an old fashioned charger in parallel. It then >> would >> charge about 20 minutes and fault code would show. Then I ran the >> de-sulfate cycle >> until a fault code came up in about an hour. Topped off the charge again. >> Didn't take >> much but was enough to start the car. I went on a two hour drive, came back >> and the >> desulfate cycle would then run to completion. That battery has been fine >> for almost a >> month now. One of the key conditions of being able to restore one of these >> abused >> batteries is that it hasn't been run low on fluid. I tried topping off >> another one >> which was in a big truck in parallel with 4 other huge batteries and it >> almost >> immediately developed a short circuit cell and started the cables smoking. >> The battery >> was boiled half dry. >> >> Bob Nuckolsof Aero Electric recommends using two small batteries and >> changing one out >> after a year then alternating every year. So most likely your battery >> capacity is >> reduced enough to warrant a new one. Keep it charged with a smart charger >> that >> switches off when the desired voltage is reached then starts again when >> needed. Don't >> use a 'trickle charger'. -- Paul A. Franz, P.E. 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