---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/06/11: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:02 AM - Thunder Aviation Engines (rawheels) 2. 05:53 AM - Re: Thunder Aviation Engines (Av8r3400) 3. 01:36 PM - Jammed engine (rosane) 4. 01:36 PM - Re: AK Trip (akflyer) 5. 01:51 PM - Oil lock (keith anderson) 6. 01:58 PM - Re: Jammed engine (b d) 7. 03:09 PM - Re: Jammed engine (Lowell Fitt) 8. 06:08 PM - Re: Jammed engine (Roger Lee) 9. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: Jammed engine (b d) 10. 06:44 PM - Re: Re: Jammed engine (b d) 11. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: Jammed engine (Lowell Fitt) 12. 10:31 PM - Re: Jammed engine (Roger Lee) 13. 10:52 PM - Re: Re: Jammed engine (b d) 14. 11:09 PM - Re: Re: Jammed engine (b d) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:25 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Thunder Aviation Engines From: "rawheels" Has anyone heard about these engines? http://www.thunderaviationengines.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351526#351526 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:29 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Thunder Aviation Engines From: "Av8r3400" Looks like a snowmobile motor with a Rotax gearbox attached. I see they are also marketing an Avid Flyer clone, too... -------- Thanks, Av8r3400 Kitfox Model IV-1200 W/912UL & IVO Kitfox Model IV-1050 W/912UL & Warp Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351529#351529 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:20 PM PST US From: "rosane" Subject: Kitfox-List: Jammed engine Hi listers, I have a problem with my 912 engine. I did not use the plane for the last month. I tried to start it this morning but couln't get the prop to turn at all. Tried by hand but it is completely jammed. I was able to turn it backward so I did for one stroke and tried again forward but nothing could turn any forward than before. Anyone had that problem before? My engine has 18 years but only 300 hours Jack Model 4 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:53 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: AK Trip From: "akflyer" I won't be home from work till the 20th, but if you check in on the list shoot me an email and I will see if I can hook you up with some good places to go! The XM is going to stop working around whitehorse would be my best guess. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry aka SNAKE Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild) IVO IFA Full Lotus 1450 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009 I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351572#351572 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:24 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil lock From: keith anderson Remove bottom spark plugs and let excess oil drian ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Jammed engine From: b d You may have a hydraulic lock or a stuck valve meaning you may have gotten water or oil in a cylinder but how could that happen? Has it been exposed t o rain or flooding unprotected? I'm only guessing at one of many possibilities. I would pull all the plugs and see if the engine can be turned through very carefully. That would eliminate this possibility. There are other possibilities but none of them good. Like a broken valve for instance. It could be a stuck valve. I would start by pulling the plugs, trying to rotate the crank and then do a visual inspection of the internal cylinders. Bruce On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 1:33 PM, rosane wrote: > Hi listers,**** > > I have a problem with my 912 engine. I did not use the plane for the last > month. I tried to start it this morning but couln=92t get the prop to tur n at > all. Tried by hand but it is completely jammed. **** > > I was able to turn it backward so I did for one stroke and tried again > forward but nothing could turn any forward than before.**** > > Anyone had that problem before? My engine has 18 years but only 300 hours * > *** > > Jack**** > > Model 4 **** > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:36 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Jammed engine Jack, This is not uncommon. With the high mounted oil tank, it is a regular phenomenon for the oil to siphon from the tank into the crank. If the angles are just right, there can be oil introduced into a cylinder producing the "Hydraulic lock". The recommendation to remove the bottom spark plugs to drain the oil is the correct solution. One thing I have found is that the oil will siphon most quickly when it is warm immediately after a flight. If after complete cool down, I then burp the tank by hand propping until the air sound is heard in the tank vent, it will go a week or more with very little oil siphoning. This should get you through a month of non flying. Lowell From: rosane Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 1:33 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Jammed engine Hi listers, I have a problem with my 912 engine. I did not use the plane for the last month. I tried to start it this morning but couln't get the prop to turn at all. Tried by hand but it is completely jammed. I was able to turn it backward so I did for one stroke and tried again forward but nothing could turn any forward than before. Anyone had that problem before? My engine has 18 years but only 300 hours Jack Model 4 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:06 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine From: "Roger Lee" Depending on the oil filter you use and where the oil tank is located (higher than recommended) then oil drain back can happen and lock up a cylinder. Pull the bottom plugs and see if fluid drains and if you can then turn the prop. See the article I wrote on the Rotax Owners website. This is why the oil filter was re-designed. It now does a better job of preventing this. If you can't read it on the Rotax Owners forum then you can see it on the at www.ctflier.com on a forum blog. The new Rotax oil filter has some major changes. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST Cell 520-349-7056 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351603#351603 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine From: b d A Hydraulic lock is easy to find. However a stuck valve (stuck in the closed position) which is more probable is a little harder as it can be any valve stuck closed (stuck open won't do it unless it's an interference type engine and I don't know about a 912) If it is a stuck valve, the engine should rotate backwards slightly less than two full revolutions whereupon it should stop again. (be careful not to force it) However with a hydraulic lock, by rotating the prop backwards, it should clear the hydraulic lock forcing the liquid out the valve ports, the same as removing the plugs. The question is, how did it get that much oil or water in the cylinder to give it a hydraulic lock? If it is water cooled, you may have a bad head gasket or cracked head. If it is oil, you have an interesting problem as that shouldn't happen. If I was there, these are easy to trouble shoot but in lieu of that, you must provide feedback. Thanks, Bruce On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Roger Lee wrote: > > Depending on the oil filter you use and where the oil tank is located > (higher than recommended) then oil drain back can happen and lock up a > cylinder. Pull the bottom plugs and see if fluid drains and if you can then > turn the prop. > See the article I wrote on the Rotax Owners website. This is why the oil > filter was re-designed. It now does a better job of preventing this. If you > can't read it on the Rotax Owners forum then you can see it on the at > www.ctflier.com on a forum blog. The new Rotax oil filter has some major > changes. > > -------- > Roger Lee > Tucson, Az. > Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated > Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated > Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST > Cell 520-349-7056 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351603#351603 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine From: b d Roger, How does the oil get into the cylinder even if it drains back? Shouldn't it free flow into the crankcase? Are you saying it's filling the rocker boxes and leaking through the valve guides? Don't the rocker arms get their oil via the main oil gallery, the lifters, the push rods and back down the push rod tubes? How else is it getting in there and ultimately getting into the cylinders? I'm not at all familiar with the Rotax 4 stroke engine oil systems so maybe you are right but it sounds strange. Please help me with this. Bruce On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Roger Lee wrote: > > Depending on the oil filter you use and where the oil tank is located > (higher than recommended) then oil drain back can happen and lock up a > cylinder. Pull the bottom plugs and see if fluid drains and if you can then > turn the prop. > See the article I wrote on the Rotax Owners website. This is why the oil > filter was re-designed. It now does a better job of preventing this. If you > can't read it on the Rotax Owners forum then you can see it on the at > www.ctflier.com on a forum blog. The new Rotax oil filter has some major > changes. > > -------- > Roger Lee > Tucson, Az. > Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated > Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated > Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST > Cell 520-349-7056 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351603#351603 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:17 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine The Rotax engine is in numerous aircraft models and some installations have issues that are very specific to the aircraft in question. This is a case in point. Changes in the engine mount on subsequent Kitfox models have eliminated this issue as well as the need to Burp the engine to return the oil to the remote oil tank before start. As mentioned before, the Model IV (and earlier) with the oil tank mounted behind the engine and above the preferred crank level position has a history of siphoning all the oil out of the tank and into the crank case. This is a dry sump system with relatively little capacity for the oil in the crankcase. So with the horizontally opposed engine oil can seep from the crankcase into the cylinders past the piston rings and cause hydraulic lock. It is not that uncommon. It has nothing to do with the heads or oil gallery, but just pure and simple gravity. Another thing that bears mentioning, Rotax strongly recommends never rotating the prop backwards. It can introduce air into the lubricating system and negatively affect the lifters. If rotated backwards, they recommend a rather inconvenient process to remove the air before engine run. in almost 20 years of monitoring this and other forums and 900 hours on my own 912, I have never heard of water in the cylinders of a Rotax engine. My take on the problem, first check the historically most common cause. If the solution is not there, go further. Lowell From: b d Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 6:40 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine Roger, How does the oil get into the cylinder even if it drains back? Shouldn't it free flow into the crankcase? Are you saying it's filling the rocker boxes and leaking through the valve guides? Don't the rocker arms get their oil via the main oil gallery, the lifters, the push rods and back down the push rod tubes? How else is it getting in there and ultimately getting into the cylinders? I'm not at all familiar with the Rotax 4 stroke engine oil systems so maybe you are right but it sounds strange. Please help me with this. Bruce On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Roger Lee wrote: Depending on the oil filter you use and where the oil tank is located (higher than recommended) then oil drain back can happen and lock up a cylinder. Pull the bottom plugs and see if fluid drains and if you can then turn the prop. See the article I wrote on the Rotax Owners website. This is why the oil filter was re-designed. It now does a better job of preventing this. If you can't read it on the Rotax Owners forum then you can see it on the at www.ctflier.com on a forum blog. The new Rotax oil filter has some major changes. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST Cell 520-349-7056 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351603#351603 ========== target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:24 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine From: "Roger Lee" Hi Bruce, What Lowell said. He is spot on. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST Cell 520-349-7056 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351631#351631 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine From: b d Lowell, Thanks for the info. However what I was referring to was recip engines in general, from the smallest engineto the largest such as the old R-4360 radial engines , Worlds Largest Steam Engine .. Your method of troubleshooting is fine for one particular engine if you kno w those idiosyncrasies. Personally if that is a normal event with a 912, I would call it poor and unacceptable engineering. Normally and A&P deals wit h many different types of engines and there are certain procedures that apply to all reciprocating internal combustion engines including the 912 and that's very simply what I was describing. I am not doubting whether you're right or wrong and I appreciate what you are saying but that is only one way of skinning a cat. Since my method is fool proof, checks everything, because mine depends on good old mechanical logic and standard practice that applies to all recips where this other method depends on "word of mouth and hearsay" which could be as dangerous a s superstition and old wives tales. If I had paid as much money as I hear the y want for a 912, I would expect better and I would not be very happy to find out that at any given moment, I may have to go to all the time and trouble to clear the engine that is described herein before I am able to fly. I don't know about other people, maybe they have more time and money and patience than I do but I think not hence the question from the plane owner. I think you are saying it requires a modification if one doesn't want to experience this over and over is that correct? Regards, Bruce On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > ** > The Rotax engine is in numerous aircraft models and some installations ha ve > issues that are very specific to the aircraft in question. This is a cas e > in point. Changes in the engine mount on subsequent Kitfox models have > eliminated this issue as well as the need to Burp the engine to return th e > oil to the remote oil tank before start. > > As mentioned before, the Model IV (and earlier) with the oil tank mounted > behind the engine and above the preferred crank level position has a hist ory > of siphoning all the oil out of the tank and into the crank case. This i s a > dry sump system with relatively little capacity for the oil in the > crankcase. So with the horizontally opposed engine oil can seep from t he > crankcase into the cylinders past the piston rings and cause hydraulic > lock. It is not that uncommon. It has nothing to do with the heads or o il > gallery, but just pure and simple gravity. Another thing that bears > mentioning, Rotax strongly recommends never rotating the prop backwards. It > can introduce air into the lubricating system and negatively affect the > lifters. If rotated backwards, they recommend a rather inconvenient proc ess > to remove the air before engine run. in almost 20 years of monitoring th is > and other forums and 900 hours on my own 912, I have never heard of water in > the cylinders of a Rotax engine. > > My take on the problem, first check the historically most common cause. If > the solution is not there, go further. > Lowell > > *From:* b d > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2011 6:40 PM > *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine > > Roger, > > How does the oil get into the cylinder even if it drains back? Shouldn't it > free flow into the crankcase? Are you saying it's filling the rocker boxe s > and leaking through the valve guides? Don't the rocker arms get their oil > via the main oil gallery, the lifters, the push rods and back down the pu sh > rod tubes? How else is it getting in there and ultimately getting into th e > cylinders? I'm not at all familiar with the Rotax 4 stroke engine oil > systems so maybe you are right but it sounds strange. > > Please help me with this. > > Bruce > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Roger Lee wrote: > >> >> Depending on the oil filter you use and where the oil tank is located >> (higher than recommended) then oil drain back can happen and lock up a >> cylinder. Pull the bottom plugs and see if fluid drains and if you can t hen >> turn the prop. >> See the article I wrote on the Rotax Owners website. This is why the oil >> filter was re-designed. It now does a better job of preventing this. If you >> can't read it on the Rotax Owners forum then you can see it on the at >> www.ctflier.com on a forum blog. The new Rotax oil filter has some major >> changes. >> >> -------- >> Roger Lee >> Tucson, Az. >> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated >> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated >> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST >> Cell 520-349-7056 >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351603#351603 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine From: b d Other sites: *Located near Smithville, TX * *The Monarch Corliss Steam Engine * * * *And * *R-4360 radial engine * * * Douglas C-124 Globemaster II Boeing B-50 Superfortress On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:50 PM, b d wrote: > Lowell, > > Thanks for the info. However what I was referring to was recip engines in > general, from the smallest engineto the > largest such > as the old R-4360 radial engines, > Worlds Largest Steam Engine. > Your method of troubleshooting is fine for one particular engine if you k now > those idiosyncrasies. Personally if that is a normal event with a 912, I > would call it poor and unacceptable engineering. Normally and A&P deals w ith > many different types of engines and there are certain procedures that app ly > to all reciprocating internal combustion engines including the 912 and > that's very simply what I was describing. > > I am not doubting whether you're right or wrong and I appreciate what you > are saying but that is only one way of skinning a cat. Since my method is > fool proof, checks everything, because mine depends on good old mechanica l > logic and standard practice that applies to all recips where this other > method depends on "word of mouth and hearsay" which could be as dangerous as > superstition and old wives tales. If I had paid as much money as I hear t hey > want for a 912, I would expect better and I would not be very happy to fi nd > out that at any given moment, I may have to go to all the time and troubl e > to clear the engine that is described herein before I am able to fly. I > don't know about other people, maybe they have more time and money and > patience than I do but I think not hence the question from the plane owne r. > I think you are saying it requires a modification if one doesn't want to > experience this over and over is that correct? > > Regards, > > Bruce > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > >> ** >> The Rotax engine is in numerous aircraft models and some installations >> have issues that are very specific to the aircraft in question. This is a >> case in point. Changes in the engine mount on subsequent Kitfox models have >> eliminated this issue as well as the need to Burp the engine to return t he >> oil to the remote oil tank before start. >> >> As mentioned before, the Model IV (and earlier) with the oil tank mounte d >> behind the engine and above the preferred crank level position has a his tory >> of siphoning all the oil out of the tank and into the crank case. This is a >> dry sump system with relatively little capacity for the oil in the >> crankcase. So with the horizontally opposed engine oil can seep from the >> crankcase into the cylinders past the piston rings and cause hydraulic >> lock. It is not that uncommon. It has nothing to do with the heads or oil >> gallery, but just pure and simple gravity. Another thing that bears >> mentioning, Rotax strongly recommends never rotating the prop backwards. It >> can introduce air into the lubricating system and negatively affect the >> lifters. If rotated backwards, they recommend a rather inconvenient pro cess >> to remove the air before engine run. in almost 20 years of monitoring t his >> and other forums and 900 hours on my own 912, I have never heard of wate r in >> the cylinders of a Rotax engine. >> >> My take on the problem, first check the historically most common cause. >> If the solution is not there, go further. >> Lowell >> >> *From:* b d >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2011 6:40 PM >> *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com >> *Subject:* Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jammed engine >> >> Roger, >> >> How does the oil get into the cylinder even if it drains back? Shouldn't >> it free flow into the crankcase? Are you saying it's filling the rocker >> boxes and leaking through the valve guides? Don't the rocker arms get th eir >> oil via the main oil gallery, the lifters, the push rods and back down t he >> push rod tubes? How else is it getting in there and ultimately getting i nto >> the cylinders? I'm not at all familiar with the Rotax 4 stroke engine oi l >> systems so maybe you are right but it sounds strange. >> >> Please help me with this. >> >> Bruce >> >> On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Roger Lee wrote: >> >>> >>> Depending on the oil filter you use and where the oil tank is located >>> (higher than recommended) then oil drain back can happen and lock up a >>> cylinder. Pull the bottom plugs and see if fluid drains and if you can then >>> turn the prop. >>> See the article I wrote on the Rotax Owners website. This is why the oi l >>> filter was re-designed. It now does a better job of preventing this. If you >>> can't read it on the Rotax Owners forum then you can see it on the at >>> www.ctflier.com on a forum blog. The new Rotax oil filter has some majo r >>> changes. >>> >>> -------- >>> Roger Lee >>> Tucson, Az. >>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated >>> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated >>> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST >>> Cell 520-349-7056 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351603#351603 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ========== >>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List >>> ========== >>> http://forums.matronics.com >>> ========== >>> le, List Admin. >>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> ========== >>> >>> >>> >>> >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matro nhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ c* >> >> * >> =========== =========== =========== =========== >> * >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.